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Ecotec Tech & Questions

123K views 177 replies 37 participants last post by  alfaromeoguy 
#1 · (Edited)
I just picked up a 2.2 NA (L61) for my jeep project and searching shows more unanswered questions than info combined with tons of unverified speculation.

There are some good threads hiding out there with lots of good tid bits of information, but like many unless your searching the whole site or google you don't trip on them.

My ultimate goal is to run the engine in my jeep and still pass an inspection. (Plug in OBDII style) I know there are stand alone harnesses but I'm also looking to be able to use the stock dash etc..

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I'm editing this first post to save/collect all the PNs that work for my swap. Hopefully this will make it easier to duplicate...

R150 transmission, w/ early (small tip) AX15 input
--- 1986 3.0V6 trans

Solstice Bell Housing, PN# 89060089
--- 2005 Pontiac Solstice, 2.4

MA5/AR5 Input Retainer GM P/N #89048231


Pilot bearing # FC-65354
--- 1993 Ranger 2.3l pilot, +early small tip input jeeps. Can be ordered with outer sleeve from jeeps applications..

Input retainer seal in new retainer same as oem AX15 (BH2844E) / Cross ? 223253
---2002 Chevrolet Colorado 5 speed

Concentric Slave Cylinder - Rhynopac # S0536
--- 2004 Dodge Viper (NEW) this is ~1" taller than the previously used part#

Flywheel Interchange number = 409-01110
--- 2005 Saturn Vue Flywheel - (stock) Weights 21.5#
--- Flywheel casting GM# 90537277

Clutch Disk Sachs # BBD4198
--- 1982 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2.8L, 9 1/8" x 1 1/8" x 10T

Clutch Cover / Pressure Plate -Sachs # SC70305
--- 2004 SATURN VUE 2.2L 134cid L4 FI DOHC

Clutch Cover Bolts - ARP#642-1000
--- Clutch Cover bolts drilled/tapped to 3/8-16 x 1"

Flywheel bolts - 12pt ARP #209-2801

Updated Timing Chain Tensioner - ACDELCO Part # 12608580

Power Steering Pump Cam Drive 'HEX' GM#24572945


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Still researching if an older 2.2/2200 vortec coil pack module can read/use the 6+1 crank sensor possibly add in a cam sensor.
[My solution ] Yes it can, basically using a 1995 PCM w/ s10 chip running 2 coil packs in waste spare mode. (more below)

Motor Mounts? What did you end up with ? Some links to sand rail sites but I have to join up to see them... Guess I'll join another forum to take a look... [ My Solution ] I made my own motor mounts using poly bushings.

headers? [ My Solution ] I'm running the stock manifold for now.

What about all these cooling hoses on the block? What can go or has to stay? [ My Solution ] using Mojave heater and using existing hoses.

Steering pump? Stock is on the back of the engine, i might can fit that.. BUT I saw a pic the solstice is running one on lower pass side. Makes it wider than before but its an option. [ My solution ] Im using a PSC CB pump.
Engine Auto part Automotive engine part Carburetor Automotive super charger part



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Documentation: Hmmm can't upload PDFs...

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Links to my research....
Some general info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Family_II_engine#D-TEC.2FE-TEC_II#L61

http://prod.gm.gmgssm.com/experienc...gines/specialized/marine/2009_2400_Marine.pdf

Swap info:

Ecotec AX15 swap info and pics..
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=949738

Bellhousing discussions:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=604219

PSC steering pump bracket?
http://www.pscmotorsports.com/-PK1200E-GM-Ecotec-1200-Series-Pump-Kit.html
any DIY stuff???

Good info: (I think he has a build thread here somewhere?)
http://www.sisoffroad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8922&page=2

Compression Sense Info:
http://www.flatrater.com/Friends/CS1/CompSense.htm

Older GM DIS info:
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/GM_DIS.htm
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_Extra_Ignition_Hardware_Manual.htm
 
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#33 ·
Thanks I found/bought a used one $45 shipped, with 50k on it, casting number matched up so I know its right ! I really hate going to junk yard (LKQ) there is always so much stuff to look at and I end up wasting most of the day by the time I drive there wander around for 2-3 hours.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Got my flywheel !!!

Just to add to the tech... I weighed it and it weighs ~21.5#

I was worried it'd be a light flimsy POS, but I think this is perfect for my needs, but now understand why the ricers crave the lightweight aluminum flywheels. Also note that a good bit of the mass in located in the outer ring.

Interchange number = 409-01110

Flywheel casting GM# 90537277

I have uploaded the pics of my flywheel for reference.

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#35 · (Edited)
Kind of a double post from my build thread, but its ecotec specific. So I'm cut/pasting it here also.

Pops was in town visiting. So I only spent a little time in the garage.. Had the old man help me out some... After the endless questions and comments we were able to complete some small tasks. Got the motor mounts tacked in. Happy with them and how they turned out. I just wasn't feeling the single front motor mount setup.

We also cracked open the motor to pull the intake camshaft so pops could take it home with him for my brother Gary in NY to machine the end for the hex drive insert. We opened up the front end as I needed to remove the timing chains and such to pull out the balance shafts and cut them down and also install the rear delete plugs. GM claims 10hp (at higher RPM) wasted spinning those things.

I should add, that I will be adding a gusset or two to the motor mount plates once I get the upper links installed.




 
#36 ·
You might want to get the updated chain tensioner for the Cam Chain.
Updated Chain Tensioner: ACDELCO Part # 12608580

I found after putting it all back together, the OEM timing chain tensioner for the Cam Chain has a really weak spring with very wide ratcheting action it uses oil pressure to for the pressure.
If you turn it over even by hand you will see the tensioner snapping back and forth.
I guess some cars have a lot of chain noise until the Oil pressure builds.
In our case running out of Oil pressure and stepping on the gas might equal Bad/skipped teeth.

So I did some searching and found they have an updated tensioner you can replace it externally so not a huge deal but I would do it while it is apart just in case it skips a tooth.

Old one on left new one on right



 
#37 · (Edited)
Great Catch !!! My 2005 motor has some of the later updates but not that one !
I ordered one today.

I've seen some realier GM type posts where they made/use a mechanical manual tensioner with threaded adjustment.

Forgot to ask.... How is the clutch disk working out ? I'm about to order some parts and wanted to get all that stuff going... What application was the disk from?
 
#38 ·
A few updates:
I received and installed the new timing chain tensioner. There was some heavy debate about the install process for the new tentioner as the old design had a set preceedure where you turn/rotate the plunger mechinism in a notched housing to pre-load it. Then once installed, 'bumped' the guide with a socket extension to unload it providing initial tension for no/low oil pressure.

There was debates as to if this was needed on the new design as the same internal mechinism exists but you have to disassemble the new piece to get to it. Early discussions simple stated to line up and thread it in.. Once one had been disassembeld it seemed folks were unsure what process applied..

Regardless of the internal changes. IMHO you do NOT need to take it apart to reset the spring. The above pic show it already 'set' or compressed. My recommended procedure is:
1) Oil the piston and push it in/out a few times.
2) Line up notch so its vertical.
3) When piston is extended you should be able to push it in enough to engage the chain guide before the threads start.
4) Apply some oil or use glove on outside of tensioner. Use steady light pressure from thumb on the center as you thread it in. I was able to thread it almost all the way in by hand.
5) Tighten/torque as you see fit.



Clutch Pressure Plate / Cover - Sachs # SC70305
Application: 2004 SATURN VUE 2.2L 134cid L4 FI DOHC
This fits the flywheel fine same as above brand.
It's says LUK on it, I have some other numbers stamped on it I will post up later.

Clutch friction disk - Sachs # BBD4198
1982 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2.8L 173cid V6 2BBL (1) OHV
9 1/8" x 1 1/8" x 10T
 
#39 · (Edited)
Quick update... Finally making progress w/ the transmission and clutch part of the project.

I have ARP 12pt bolts to attach the flywheel to the crank. I'll post the ARP# later..

I forgot to mention, I tapped the flywheel to 3/8-16 to bolt the clutch cover/pressure plate on.
I bought ARP-642-1000 (3/8 x 1") The stock flywheel is some goofy 5mm thread size.. WTF !! Flywheel is thick enough the 1" bolts don't stick out bottom. (pics later) much nicer now...

Initially I've found mixed information regarding the retainer on the MA5/AR5 being the same as the R150/AX15 they are the same series trans but I just couldn't find any pics of the MA5 without the slave cylinder to verify the retainer bolt pattern. In researching I found many R154 tyep swaps into import cars and found a post from a seeming knowledgeable person clearly stating it was. Based on that I have ordered the MA5 input retainer.

Once again in reviewing old book marked posts, I've been lead off track by idiots who post false shit and even pictures that of different/wrong transmissions attempting to support their BS information. The interweb parroting of false info flat out sucks..

I ordered: GM P/N #89048231 RETAINER $55

My reason for going this route was it would allow me to run essentially all later model semi matched parts known to fit together.

It's an aluminum input retainer and uses the standard GM internal slave (concentric slave cylinder with bearing)

The slave is a standard/common size unit GM has been using and Saches #6133 ~$75 this same style slave is used on GM trucks 98-05, 00-02 F-bodies etc.. and many others. Most have minor differences with the hoses fitting or bleed port type which I will cover in a bit. Some have various quick connects etc. but otherwise look to be the same slave.

Of interest, (see pics) is that the slaves are rotated differently. The retainer has 4 symmetrical mounting pads, with 2 bolts used to hold on the slave. I'm not sure if all the holes are drilled but I've seen all the pads there.

The solstice slave does NOT have a bleed port its orientation, hose routing and master are all set such it will bleed to the top. Obviously this won't work for every setup and why most have a bleed port.

See the Colorado pic for comparison or rotation and ports. These ports can be easily removed by removing the roll pin. Russells makes an AN fitting can be used. I plan to adapt immediately to AN and run hoses out for the pressure and bleed. This will solve the orientation issue and allow the hoses to run out the solstice access port in the bell without needing to drill extra holes in the bell. Done....

Lastly I'm still tracking down exact flywheel surface to block measurements on a 4.0/AX15 setup to make sure the eco stuff is similar. Based on my measurements of my eco block/flywheel i have plenty of room for the AX15 input to slide into the machined recess in the eco crank if needed. Should I need to shim or space out the slave at all the, 4 pads and 2 mounting holes will allow for an easier spacing and more stable base. I'm not sure I will need to do that yet.. I'm not sure of the operating range of these slaves but they seem pretty robust.... More info. as I dig it up...

Auto part Engine


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#40 · (Edited)
To be clear these are pictures of my setup. So the info here is verified by me (or at least as I see it)
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I did a depth check of the input onto the crank to see if it would bottom out and to see where the pilot bearing might run.. YES it bottomed out. I trimmed 1/4" off I may trim a little more as the tip plunges well past where the pilot will be. In fact with it trimmed off its near the 1/2" stick out (past the bell face) that the input has with the AX15 bell on it..


Clutch part Auto part Disc brake Vehicle brake Rotor

Pic (up) showing where the clutch disk will ride on the splines, wish it was a little deeper but its a hair from being fully engaged and will prolly be fully on the splines with the trimmed tip accounted for.. (I will recheck all this one last time)

Auto part Carburetor Automotive engine part Engine Automotive super charger part

See small hole drilled.... Also note... hole dumps oil into small collection area that feed plastic nozzle that slides into idler shaft to feed oil to it.

Auto part Engine Gauge Vehicle
The rear output bearing was a little notchy so I decided to replace it. I found it funny that all the other upper bearings on the main shaft were sealed bearings. I found a similar bearing from VXB 6306-2RS to use. This one is sealed so I added a small drain hole from back side of the bearing seat. I'm not sure how much oil really gets pushed up that high and possbly what contributed to the bearing being that way.. I figured worst case I can plug the hole and go back to an open bearing... Pic of new bearing next to old...

note: the toyota bearing is an 'odd' bearing as its has a 30.5mm ID. I discovered this after I tried to install it and it wouldn't slide on the output shaft. I used a die grinder to open it up a little and it went on fine...

Few notes from the tear downs and swapping inputs:
AX15 doesn't use a rear output bearing. It relies on the tcase input bearing to support it..
R150 has a magnet and metal holder that fits into special cast notches in the center support plate. AX15 had no magnet nor the notches to hold one. This was on both the 92 and 95 AX15s I had apart..



Auto part Disc brake Automotive wheel system Machine Engine

Here is the cool stuff.... The AR5/MA5 retainer it fits perfect minus 1 single hole being off set.. The hole is where the pad for the slave is so I see why they moved it. The retainer does fully cover the existing hole.

There is plenty of room on both the retainer and the case to redril a new hole near by. I plan to add the new hole as I do think its needed.
 
#41 · (Edited)
I like seeing pics of shit so I can see how it looks at various angles so thats why I post several...

A few more...

Auto part Engine Brake Transmission part Differential

Another of the front retainer... The front seal seemed to fit just fine but I will cross the dimensions just to double check.


Auto part Engine Automotive engine part

Just a reference pic of all the retainers in my collection...



Next up is to order the slave... I held off in case this stuff didn't line up right... But its looking good now.

Update: The front input seal PN was identical to the older AX15 with internal slave PN (BH2844E) Rockauto lists a Timken Seal # 223253 with the same dimensions for the AX15
 
#42 ·
I appreciate all the hard work and R&D you're putting into this and freely sharing with all of us. While I may never have any practical use for any of this info, it is the kind of stuff I dig. This is the kind of TECH that got me to lurking on Pirate all those years ago and eventually join. I'd rather see this than another $$$ crawler or KOH build, not that they aren't awesome but there's only so many ways to put a jungle gym on wheels. :flipoff2: The Homebrew, DIY tech is what gets my motor going.

:beer:

Thanks for sharing!



- Lee
 
#43 · (Edited)
Thanks and I appreciate the plug.. The tech and parts swapping knowledge was also what attracted here and kept me here. Though lately many people are out to make a buck and stuff, thats fine, I have a day job so I don't mind sharing... I know I've wasted money buying wrong parts because someone won't give up a part number or some critical measurements so I combat that by sharing what I can. I like the challenge or researching something and making it work. Many times I fail or give up... This one looks to be actually working !! :beer:

ANyway.... Made some more progress...

Tore trans down to drill/tap the new hole for the front retainer.

Ordered new concentric slave and started fitment. (PN posted later when I find my invoice....)The bleed fitting was a threaded screw type. Somehow I was thinking it was also an oring pined in fitting.. Glad it wasn't as this worked out perfect. I drilled a hole through the bell and things lined up great. Easy to bleed it when needed.

I'm working on the pressure line. I ordered the Russel adapter fittings along with a 36" -3 AN brake hose. All that fit properly but I got thinking I'd like to minimize any issues from having adapters and a relitivly cheep hose (as cheap as aeroquip is) I called a local hose/tube supplier that has done neumerous 4x4 projects and Billy at Alliance Tube has the crimp on ends that will plug right into the slave and master.. Cost wise I should have called him first as it will be about the same price with the adapters and regular hose.. The hose will have an extra cover on it, should help keep shit off it etc..

Opps guess I didn't take a pic before I bolted it back on the motor. I'll snap a pic when I pull it off again..

Here are a few pics showing the bleed port and peeking inside the bell..

Product Auto part Electronic device Cylinder Lens


Auto part Vehicle Car
 
#45 ·
The PN I posted is the bearing without the sleeve... '93 Ford Ranger Application but crosses to ~pre94, small tip input jeeps. Sleeve can also be purchased separate.. I was being cheep and save $2 :) NOTE: some applications list a small busing and NOT an actual roller/needle bearing.. Some want a bushing... YMMV
 
#46 ·
#47 ·
Ran into a little snag today... Seems in my hurry to measure things I didn't account for the pressure plate fingers flattening out as the plate was pulled down tight. I tried bleeding things and the slave reached the end of its limits and leaked out...

So I'm researching different internal slaves or worst case a spacer.

What is a typical pressure plate travel ? 1/4" 1/2" more? Possibly a space disk could fix it up.

Otherwise anyone know of a book (or contact somewhere) that could measure to see if there are differences in the slave height. The static height should be fine to figure out if it will work or not...

Worst case I'll be off the the junk yard to do some homework...

Any help appreciated.
 
#49 · (Edited)
Looks like i need about 1" taller slave...

Research shows some promising stuff. The 2003 viper slave looks to be a bit taller than most..

My parts... Chase at ECGS has a new hose crimping setup and got the adapters to do my hose.. I was planning to use AN3 adapters but I like one less fitting in the bell area.

The gap between the black plastic ring and the base measures 1" and it looks like the PP isn't touching the throwout at all (its close though).. That is the amount of travel it can be compressed.

Auto part Clutch Disc brake Rotor Wheel


Vehicle Lens Car Family car




Viper Slave
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Still doing some homework...
 
#50 ·
Looks like the 2004 Dodge Viper slave cylinder (Rhynopac #S0536) will work nicely. I didn't get my pics uploaded yet, but did the test fits last night.

I have some comparison pics to post later, but the free standing height measurements are:
GM Camaro/Truck slave measured 3-3/8"
Dodge Viper Slave 4-3/8"

The base and machined areas of the slaves are dimensionally the same. The viper slave fit the front retainer perfectly. The mounting holes in the viper slave were clocked 90 degrees. I simply drilled and tapped the other 2 posts on the front retainer.

I had to make a 1" notch in the large inspection hole opening for the bleeder outlet to fit to allow the slave to align to the new holes properly. Using this slave would negate the need to drill the other hole I did previously needing only the notch.

Upon installation, I was able to (easily) stick a marker inside the inspection hole to mark the slave to measure how much travel I have with the new slave. With the trans installed I now have a full 3/4" travel at the slave cylinder. In measuring the pressure plate fingers, they would be push in so far as to touch the clutch disk hub if it traveled that far.

So I should be good to go... Although I will still perform a test of the clutch before I bolt the tub back on and proceed.

Pics and further updates later.
 
#52 ·
Few updates on the ecotec stuff... Got it running, using s 2003 Cavalier computer (P11) I had it tuned for stand alone operation. I plan to get HPTuners (or similar) down the road, but this will get me started.

Some pics of the wiring stuff.. I need to solder some connections and wire wrap it. Need to add in some relay and fan stuff also.. May run them separate.

Will mount the PCM up on the firewall..

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Engine Auto part Electrical wiring Vehicle Electronics


Engine Auto part Electrical wiring Technology Electronics
 
#53 · (Edited)
Need to rework the rear head water outlet and the water pump inlet. Plans call for an inline thermostat either on the outlet or return. Then fabricate a new water block for the head.

The standard water pipes, have the water inlet at the back of the engine, this works great in a transverse mounting but not for me. I will re-route the pump inlet so it goes straight to the radiator, then tee in a small feed line from the heater return.

Basically the rear head outlet port goes through the heater core then returns to the pump inlet. Factory has the t-stat in that area also, so the heater loops off the block all the time and cool water is introduced as needed.. There is a small 1/8" bleed port between the head outlet to the pump draw.. Figure it is to help the system vent out.

I have a 1.5" thick piece of aluminum that I will make a new water block. Basically removing the larger 1.25" water passage and just managing the 5/8" lines there, and adding a port for a 5/8 hose. This will run up to the water pump inlet where the radiator feed will be. Also have a port for the temp sensor like stock.


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#54 ·
Ended up reworking the stock part, pulled the metal outlet tube out, hole was perfect size to tap for 1/2" npt, cut off all the extra stuff and left with what you see... taped the small 1/8" bleed port, will cap that unless I learn otherwise.

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#55 ·
I was going a little digging around for ecotec info....great thread by the way!

Anyways.

Why not use the Solstice slave cylinder? 2007ish. DORMAN Part # CS650160

That would be the factory application for the RA-5 rwd transmission with the ecotec correct? The same transmission is used in the colorado/canyon also with a 4x4 adapter on the back. The transfer case is passenger drop. I wonder what the bolt pattern is on that one. From the pictures I have found it looks VERY similar to the AX15....

Just a few thoughts. Thanks for compiling the data so far.
 
#63 ·
That would be the factory application for the RA-5 rwd transmission with the ecotec correct? The same transmission is used in the colorado/canyon also with a 4x4 adapter on the back. The transfer case is passenger drop. I wonder what the bolt pattern is on that one. From the pictures I have found it looks VERY similar to the AX15....

Just a few thoughts. Thanks for compiling the data so far.
the 4wd RA-5 trans shares the same pattern as GMs NV3500 found in s10s and astro van's it's a non Symmetrical 5 bolt pattern.

I can get a better pic for you if needed, but it was super easy to make an adapter for it. I found a 7004r off a 2.8L S10 and used the factory adapter as a guide to drill new holes in the adapter plate. or NWF makes a 5-6 adapter ring too, it's not shown on their site but I've bought one before. S10 5 Bolt Clocking Ring
 
#57 ·
yes i still have this one ! (jeep). No you can't have a ride !! ;)

Solstice - it been awile, but i recall, that those slaves only had one (1) port. Not like the two (2) port, that i am using. It will fit if you get the right slave, OR you drill it out.. They use two threaded holes, but there are four.. Just tap it out..


Yes I'm do well.. I will not let this stoke win. I will win, or die trying !
 
#59 ·
I would say it a pretty easy.
I got the PCM already, "tuned". I had to supply the wiring.
It took me about 3 hour.
What made it easy is that the terminal blocks are easy.
It did take me over a hour to separate the PCM blocks, but only because i had never saw them before.

With the kit, it will allowed me to hit the trail.
But I need to do some adjustment. Fan temp. Idle speed.
Just stuff like that.
 
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