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111K views 495 replies 116 participants last post by  Slowerthanu 
#1 ·
Not to add fuel to the fire, but I was sifting through my old episodes of Extreme4x4 today and came across a clip. It is jesse welding and she is explaining the differences between mig and tig. Now her Tig welds look like mig welds and her mig welds are all tack tack tack.

Why does she do things backwards?
 
#421 ·
Cool, sounds like i can get more technical as you know what you're taking about biggervalves, got a few more questions here for you :). But before i continue on i need to carlify when i'm talking ab9out toughnes. When i think about toughness i think of it as impact/notch toughness at low temperature (you probably don't have to worry about that like i do as we have to worry about impact/notch toughness at -40*C), correct me if i'm wrong but you seem to refer to it more as fatigue, or a time thing of a part over time correct? If so we're talking about 2 different things (well kinda anyway :))

also, for comparission sake lets use a 1040 vs. 4340, as the max achievable UTS is very close to the same (the carbon content is what has the gretest effect on a number of properities including the UTS), and thus we're only comparing the alloying content differences.


1020 will not always be tougher. If you check out some stress strain curves, you will see that in respective conditions 4130 is extremely ductile and will always show more toughness than 1020. Toughness being total area under the stress strain curve and meaning how much energy it can "absorb". I think this is a very common misnomer.
Yeah here we're talking about 2 different things, i should've clarified more i guess. Yes 4130/4340 (new comparo remember :)) is ductile, but hardenability of the alloy allows the formation of martensite in varing amounts (i think it hits hrc 25ish air cool after taken above the critical temp, and that is getting up there, but still a long ways to go to steel's max hardness of 65, but a 4340 can hit that with a water quench), and under high impact at lower temps the 1020/1040 will perform better the 4130/4340 because of the martensitic stucture and its shitty toughness properities (think of a rubber band being stretched to its max, doesn't take a lot more to break whereas a nonstretched rubber band takes a lot).

But i do agree with what you said, i believe too that isn't that also refered to young's modulas of elasticity (sp?)


Do wha? You're talking about phase diagrams but where are u going with this cooling rate and warping thing?
The diagrams i'm thinking about probably isn't the phase diagram you're thinking about (it's the one that shows how much martensite, pearlite, bainite, etc, and the rates of cooling you need to achieve those grain structures, are you thinking of the diagram that show austenite, iron carbides, ferrite, delta ferrite, etc?) But these diagrams show that if you cool at a such and such rate what structure you will get (say martensite or pearlite), and this structure, martensite for example, correlates to what kind of uts you will get, but it kinda of sorta related hear, like if you compare 1040 to 4340 you will see that the 4340 get a 100% martensitic structure before the 1040 will, but you can still get the 100% martensite, but the cooling rate will be so quick you will probably warp the crap out of the plate trying to get it.



This is too broad to be true and it's really not. While DOM will plastically deform easier and under less load, often 4130 can absorb MORE energy to ultimate failure than mild steel. Again, check condition numbers and ductility. You will find 4130 N is much more ductile than 1020 in a respective condition. Toughness is more than just how much it plastically deforms, cause it also includes all that load absorbed up to the begininning of plastic deformation.
The first part is more related to material strength and not toughness, and what type of condition does that need to happen in cause in all the charpy testing i've done (low temp) i never came across that?


4130 used as welded is best supplied in the normalized condition. Normalizing being heating to slightly above the critical temperature and then cooling in still air. Welding and slow air cooling is somewhat similar to this process and it's why 4130 N is so welded and useable as welded. In this condition 4130 is very strong, very tough, and very useful. It is how many many airplanes have been built successfully.

I agree :) the welding thing will depend more or less on the size/thickness of the part as your really thick parts can cool small welds alot quicker than what a normalized plate was.

Slower cooling by using preheat can be helpful. The ability to heat treat 4130 is just another benefit of the material, but not the only one. Use correctly as welded it's stronger and tougher than mild steel. It's more than just a weight savings, it's a stronger chassis, lighter chassis, or both. If you're going to build a heat treated 4130 part it's the best idea to just start with annealed 4130 and weld with matching filler. Most 4130 tube is supplied in the normalized condition.

yep


The real benefit of HT is removing the stress induced from joining 2 super heated metal details in an expanded state that contract when cooled creating stress.

There's more advantages than that. It's very weldabe, yes, and that's why it's so great. The real heat treating benefit would be a full anneal, quenched, and tempered. But how practical is that? Stress relieving can be nice, but it's not really needed in a tube structure and as I've said a million times, trying to do it in an open air shop with a torch is counter-productive.
yeah you need a controled furnace environment for it to be benefical. But a quench and temper (i'm assuming a water quench, correct me if i'm wrong as then what i'm about to say won't be true) is something i'd avoid as you material would become for what i consider to be to hard for a tube stucture (say a roll cage)and you will see cracking happening more and more before a tube will deform, and thats due to a 100% martensitic structure which although has wicked strength, its impact toughness is not very good.

And yes that is a very expensive way to do something espically when good design practices can prove to be just as benefical (may not be as light though).




Stress relieving doesn't do much, but a full harden could. Also, 4130 and/or heat treating won't "stiffen" up your frame. Only more material or a different design will do that.
I think we're on the same page here :).


Get away with it? IMO that's by far the best choice for work on normalized 4130 as welded. The material will not end up stronger than the weld if you know what you're doing. er70s-2 lessens the hardenability of the weld itself and provides a nice margin for error there. With enough of it, you will not have a weld weaker than the surrounding 4130. Where your problem lies always is the edge of the haz. This is where stresses pack up and cause failure and this mush be taken into account in the design and manufacture. er70s-2 is the optimal filler for 4130-N used as welded. I have successfully used er80s-d2 and there are times I still do, but er70s-2 is often the best. If you're not using as welded and really pwht'ing a part then the only smart option is matching filler.

Good point with er70s-2 lessening the hardenability of the weld, but you should not have to add excessive reiforcement for the weld to as strong, i would much prefer the er80s-d2 over the er70s-2, as the strength of the filler is closer with the strength of the 4130/4340 base material, and yes you should always match the filler to your base using the approiate methods.


I could talk on this subject for weeks. It's odd what some peole learn about 4130. It's not the end all by far and I think most builders, especially 4x4, are better off with quality mild steel DOM. But for experienced builders it's a fantastic tool with multiple useable benefits. What drives me nuts is this whole "it'll break in half and spear you in a wreck", which couldn't be farther from the truth. 4130 is ridiculously ductile and tough and strong if used right.
Yeah i could to, and i too much perfer mild steel dom, and yes its a great tool, but the break in half thig, i to see where you're coming from with it and agree, but there are some properities with it that are why i'm not a fan of the people that doesn't understand the properities of it using it.
 
#422 · (Edited)
But before i continue on i need to carlify when i'm talking ab9out toughnes. When i think about toughness i think of it as impact/notch toughness at low temperature (you probably don't have to worry about that like i do as we have to worry about impact/notch toughness at -40*C), correct me if i'm wrong but you seem to refer to it more as fatigue, or a time thing of a part over time correct? If so we're talking about 2 different things (well kinda anyway :))
Toughness is basically a measure of the energy a material can absorb up to failure. This means what it absorbs from the time it loads, through it's elastic range, into into plastic deformation, and ultimately failure. It is directly proportional to yield strength and ductility. Fracture toughness deals with the ability of a material to resist crack propogation.

Now, I'm not talking about fatigue. I am talking about toughness. You are really talking about fracture toughness and toughness. Three totally different things. Toughness is the total area under the stress strain curve. Fracture toughness is a material constant. Fatigue is a whole different discussion. Impact and notch toughness is related to toughness, but they're their own little ideas, but the higher a material's toughness is the better its impact strengh and notch toughness will be. So I'm talking about what you're talking about when I say toughness, and the thing is, 4130 N used right is actually more resistant to failure than 1020 in impacts and energy absorbtion.

Bringing in temperature is different. I'm talking at typical naturally occuring temperatures we race, wheel, and fly in. There is this ductile to brittle transition thing, but I don't care about that because that doesn't happen at the temperatures cages and chassis are used in. Temperature no doubt can have an effect on these numbers, and I can't comment on what happens at very low service temperatures as I have not studied or experienced the phenomenon much.



also, for comparission sake lets use a 1040 vs. 4340, as the max achievable UTS is very close to the same (the carbon content is what has the gretest effect on a number of properities including the UTS), and thus we're only comparing the alloying content differences.
Somewhat close, yes. But that alloying is what can do neat things with the carbon and steel's microstructure to increase the material's strength.




Yeah here we're talking about 2 different things, i should've clarified more i guess. Yes 4130/4340 (new comparo remember :)) is ductile, but hardenability of the alloy allows the formation of martensite in varing amounts (i think it hits hrc 25ish air cool after taken above the critical temp, and that is getting up there, but still a long ways to go to steel's max hardness of 65, but a 4340 can hit that with a water quench), and under high impact at lower temps the 1020/1040 will perform better the 4130/4340 because of the martensitic stucture and its shitty toughness properities (think of a rubber band being stretched to its max, doesn't take a lot more to break whereas a nonstretched rubber band takes a lot).
Not always the case. It depends on what exactly you've done to each material. And this is beyond the scope of the 4130/1020 we're talking about. This is getting into something much more in depth and now we're talking heat treat. But no, 1040 does NOT outperform 4340. Simply enough, if 1040 could it would be making the higher end axle shafts and gears and not 4340 and 300m and Aermet. You can do fun stuff to make the toughness of 4340 much better than typical 1040. While I love 1040, 4340 can always be made tougher and stronger. The process for maximizing the properties of each is not the same, but that's cause they're not the same material. So 4340 is TOUGH AND CAN RESIST IMPACTS BETTER THAN 1040. But you must know how to get it to that state. Does this make sense.

Brittleness is a term that's misused imo. Just cause something CAN have brittle properties, it doesn't mean it's worthless and shatters under impact. Brittle materials are ceramics and concrete and junk like that. Almost all steels are very ductile comparitively. The bad thing brittleness properties cause is a sensitivity to IMPERFECTIONS. That's where you must be careful and why a "catastrophic" failure is likely to occur. Handled correctly, materials that are called "brittle" are often the strongest and toughest.


But i do agree with what you said, i believe too that isn't that also refered to young's modulas of elasticity (sp?)
No. Not at all. Modulus of elasticity is the measure of strain to stress of a steel IN ITS ELASTIC RANGE in tension. Because this relationship with steels is linear the modulus of elasticty is the slope of the stress/strain curve in the elastic range. That's all. It is a material constant and is the same for all steels.. (about 29,000,000 psi) It is a measure of a material's stiffness and is used in calculations to help determine things like deflection, stiffness, strain, etc. Doesn't have anything to do with the material's strength. Just its resilience.




The diagrams i'm thinking about probably isn't the phase diagram you're thinking about (it's the one that shows how much martensite, pearlite, bainite, etc, and the rates of cooling you need to achieve those grain structures, are you thinking of the diagram that show austenite, iron carbides, ferrite, delta ferrite, etc?) But these diagrams show that if you cool at a such and such rate what structure you will get (say martensite or pearlite), and this structure, martensite for example, correlates to what kind of uts you will get, but it kinda of sorta related hear, like if you compare 1040 to 4340 you will see that the 4340 get a 100% martensitic structure before the 1040 will, but you can still get the 100% martensite, but the cooling rate will be so quick you will probably warp the crap out of the plate trying to get it.
But we're not talking about this per-se. We're not talking about achieving this hard structure with 1040. We're just worried what happens with a slow air cool after welding. And I talked about this a bit earlier. And this goes along with the other things I've been saying.




The first part is more related to material strength and not toughness, and what type of condition does that need to happen in cause in all the charpy testing i've done (low temp) i never came across that?
No, I was talking exactly about toughness. Material strength is going to be a part of toughness as they're directly proportional if ductility is the same.

The Charpy test is great, but it's just yet another measure of toughness. You need to just look at some elogation numbers and tensile strengths to figure about how well a material will perform in that test.

Here is my point:
1020 specs (normalized): 50,000 psi yield / 63,000 psi ultimate / elongation at break 35%

4130 specs (normalized): 63,000 psi yield / 97,200 psi ultimate / elongation at break 25%

Ok, so they're pretty damn similar when it comes to the yield point. 13ksi is a bit, but not a huge different. You will see 1020 is very ductile (35%). BUT 4130 is also very ductile when normalized (25%). Overall toughness here is definitely going to go to 4130 because look at the gap between yield and ultimate. So what I'm saying is material wise, 4130 will permanetly change shape with a load 13,000 psi greater than 1020.. Now 1020 will fail when the load reaches only 63,000 psi and will have "stretched" 35%. 4130 on the other hand will not ultimately fail until the load reaches 97,000 psi! This is impressive. It will strech 25% when it does fail. So do you see the advantage?? While 1020 is more ductile, it is NOT tougher. 4130 absorbs more energy. Which do you want surrounding you in a horrid crash if the need arised? (Rhetorical question just to make one think.)

Now it is important with a build to not load weak spots heavily in order to let the rest of the material work up to that 97ksi load point. This goes back to the engineering, design, manufacture, experience thing.

1020 is GREAT stuff as you see above. Very often DOM is NOT quality 1020 and much weaker 1010 or something. My example is using the run of the mill 4130 as supplied and top of the line mild steel DOM. Often DOM is supplied as rolled and not normalized. Still, mild steel DOM is very adequate, so what does that say about typically supplied 4130 N?

Now what I've given above is a VERY simplified example and negates some factors, but it explains the concept behind the advantages and toughness and ductility and what we've been talking about. However, you better know how to use those advantages or else you help give the 4130 structures their bad name which occurs from uninformed people or poor building and design.



I agree :) the welding thing will depend more or less on the size/thickness of the part as your really thick parts can cool small welds alot quicker than what a normalized plate was.
Sure, lots of things effect cooling rates.







yeah you need a controled furnace environment for it to be benefical. But a quench and temper (i'm assuming a water quench, correct me if i'm wrong as then what i'm about to say won't be true) is something i'd avoid as you material would become for what i consider to be to hard for a tube stucture (say a roll cage)and you will see cracking happening more and more before a tube will deform, and thats due to a 100% martensitic structure which although has wicked strength, its impact toughness is not very good.
Nope, see above about 4340 for axle shafts. Think about it. It will happen, has happened, and I hope to experiment with it some day. I'm going to stop now as I've given away too much information as is.

And yes that is a very expensive way to do something espically when good design practices can prove to be just as benefical (may not be as light though).
:D




Good point with er70s-2 lessening the hardenability of the weld, but you should not have to add excessive reiforcement for the weld to as strong, i would much prefer the er80s-d2 over the er70s-2, as the strength of the filler is closer with the strength of the 4130/4340 base material, and yes you should always match the filler to your base using the approiate methods.
Your thinking is the same trap lots of other people fall into. You DO need more-than-textbook reinforcement in this situation as it's a special case with the way we do things and use the material. However, er80s-d2 is common and has worked well for many folks, including myself. But.......



Yeah i could to, and i too much perfer mild steel dom, and yes its a great tool, but the break in half thig, i to see where you're coming from with it and agree, but there are some properities with it that are why i'm not a fan of the people that doesn't understand the properities of it using it.
If everyone continues to use good DOM they will be more than happy. Quality DOM is GREAT stuff and works perfectly for most every application. Look at NASCAR. Those cars are very tough. They are mild steel DOM. 4130 is a "special" thing.. That is all. :grinpimp:
 
#423 ·
yeah good points, but i think its best to end the discussion before we get too technical, i'll probably fire you a pm or something cause you know you're stuff and i've got a couple questions :).

I will say you and i view toughness on two different levels based on what we know and work in, i have to deal with low temperature stuff, and you the opposite, and you stated you haven't worked with that end of spectrum and that is where a lot of the stuff i've stated comes in, but i'll leave it at that cause i have a some work to do before a 3hr drive ahead of me and i have to be up early tomorrow morning, fire me a pm or something :)
 
#424 ·
OK, Mustang and Bigger Valves, yall have officially lost me. Welding I can keep up with, basics of metalurgy, maybe, but I'm pretty sure yall are talkin engineer speak which dont compute.

Dont stop tho, it may take a bit for me to wrap my brain around all the info you've dumped, but the more I read it the more it makes sense and opens my eyes a bit.

This is what the board used to be, just plain ole good tech with differing educated opinions, its been missing for a long time now and replaced with show and tell with the occasional entertaining flame job.
 
#425 · (Edited)


Take for example a steel rod purley in tension.

Stress is the load applied divided by the cross sectional area.

Strain is how much the rod lengthens divided by its origional length.


Steel can bend/deform and return to its origional position like a spring until yeild strength is met, at which point it has deformed permenantly. You can continue loading the peice until it actually breaks apart, and this is the Ultimate stress.

The slope of the line from the origin to the elastic limit is the modulous of elasticity or Youngs modulous.

Billavista wrote a decent article about this:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-BV60/index1a.html


PS, sorry if I oversimiplified it for you but I figured some people might need it. If you have anyone has any engineering type questions I'd love to help contribute.
 
#427 ·
Thanks Sir, been through Bill's article a few times, along with a few others on the web and in hardcopy. I have a basic understanding, but getting deeper into the metalurgical side of things is still PFM sometimes.

I was under the impression that 4130 was similar in strength to 1020 untill heat treatment had been applied. I didn't realise that the ultimate strength in the following table didn't involve a specified heat treatment protocol, and could be attained in an "as welded" state.

1020 specs (normalized): 50,000 psi yield / 63,000 psi ultimate / elongation at break 35%

4130 specs (normalized): 63,000 psi yield / 97,200 psi ultimate / elongation at break 25%

Slight difference in terminology got me, I didn't equate "ultimate" strength with "breaking" strength.

The more I read, the more I'm suprised when a couple experts can converse on this subject and I can keep up more or less. Its good to feel like a newbie again, from time to time.
 
#428 ·
Alrighty :) i do agree with you biggervalves, but once you get down to the colder temperatures the toughness of high strength materials (ie 4130) is way lower than that of a 1020, and i'm refering to toughness as the amount of energy to iniciate (i'm having a bad day with spelling :)) failure. The temperature at which this occus and the amount of energy this occurs at is called the transformation temperature, this varies upon the climate but up here the standard is -40*C, but the amount of energy required to cause breakage is either 20ft lbs. or 15 joules (same thing either way just imperial or metric), and for a fully hardened 4130, you're lucky to get 15 joules at -40*C (think charpy tests if this helps), now under an annealed state you'll probably looking into the 20-40joule range, which is not alot, think dropping an average sized hammer on something with some type of notching effect, like a square hole on a ship or something (now thats not true anymore though as ships use round openings for reasons). Now a 1020 (we just did some tests on some 516 Gr70 plate and the material was in the 200joule range but the weld was in the 112 range, buts thats due to the welding process used) or something similar will be 5-10 times that of the 4130.

What kind of steel is used in that graph as that seems to have fairly high strength numbers (would have a good pop when it broke :)). And in terms of that graphd, well to be honest were never taught toughness the way you refer to, to us that was always the strength of the material, but i get your point and i agree, but remember what i said holds true for low temp.

these might be interesting, from the recent 516 gr 70 material we recently tested:

 
#429 ·
Yea, but you're experiencing a ductile to brittle transition phenomenon. I'm not sure what temperature this occurs for both 1020 and 4130, but it's the temp when there is a very sharp decrease, or a "jump" if you will, in failure behavior from ductile to brittle. You're numbers do seem odd to see that size of a jump in numbers. I'll take a look into that and the ductile to brittle transition temps for both sometime. What exactly is 516 gr70 composed of and what is it typically used for? Also, what's the program you got there?
 
#430 · (Edited)
Yeah it was due to the SAW process and the large grain growth from the high heats the SAW imposses on the material, thus why the big jump from the base material to the weld, the flux is rated for a T20 (the transformation temperature from ductile to brittle in imperial, 20ft lbs) at -60*F. The material is in the asme boiler and pressure vessel code, its a common plate material.

The transition temp will vary between metals, but its a common thing if you work in the colder temperatures because of the destruction that has and will happen, with it being sooner for the high strength materials, and later for the lower strength material, and for some materials, such as aluminum for insistance there isn't one (Al does decrease but it doesn't drop off like steel does).

I can't remember what the program is offhand, but its whatever we use with our 500,000lb tensile tester (which is old as fawk lol), i'll look next time i'm by the thing though.
 
#431 ·
The transition temp will vary between metals, but its a common thing if you work in the colder temperatures because of the destruction that has and will happen, with it being sooner for the high strength materials, and later for the lower strength material, and for some materials, such as aluminum for insistance there isn't one (Al does decrease but it doesn't drop off like steel does).
I will concede some of the fracture tests like charpy and what not do not always look favorable to materials like 4130 under certain conditions. However, I think they must be taken with a grain of salt when you're thinking of a structure like a roll cage. For the work you're doing they can be very instrumental to determine a material's worthiness for a project. I see where you're coming from and like seeing your data. There's just so many properties that vary according to use and then the importance of the properties according to the project that these kinds of discussions can go very very deep. But this is part of the fun.:D
 
#432 ·
diddo on the test favoring some materials over others, as tensile test favor high strength materials, and charpy's favor lower strength material, there is a comprimse with selecting materials, you just have know exactly what a material uses are before you can make any major decisions.

I've spent a crap load of time learning metalurgy (asicular ferrite, iron carbibes, delta ferrite, austenite, etc, all the different heat treatments and surface hardenings, alloys etc) and i know we've only scratched the surface.

On that note, Engloid my instructors always used to say (one of them did tig roots and is who told me this) that when working with inconels (i think thats spelled right) in high temp service, that if you have any defects/discontinuities in the material that you can actually see them when the material gets up to red hot temperatures? Is this true, if so you ever see it or get pictures of it?

Yeah i wish i would've kept copies of all the data i've collected (different computer) in the past as i had some pretty neat results and pictures, i can say that stainless steel is one of my favorite materials :). Bigger, i posted some pictures of the grain structure of the above posted tensile results a few pages back, but i can give you the link if you want.
 
#441 ·
from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mig_welding

Pulsed-spray

A more recently developed method, the pulse-spray metal transfer mode is based on the principles of spray transfer but uses a pulsing current to melt the filler wire and allow one small molten droplet to fall with each pulse. The pulses allow the average current to be lower, decreasing the overall heat input and thereby decreasing the size of the weld pool and heat-affected zone while making it possible to weld thin workpieces. The pulse provides a stable arc and no spatter, since no short-circuiting takes place. This also makes the process suitable for nearly all metals, and thicker electrode wire can be used as well. The smaller weld pool gives the variation greater versatility, making it possible to weld in all positions. In comparison with short arc GMAW, this method has a somewhat slower maximum speed (85 mm/s or 200 in/min) and the process also requires that the shielding gas be primarily argon with a low carbon dioxide concentration. Additionally, it requires a special power source capable of providing current pulses with a frequency between 30 and 400 pulses per second. However, the method has gained popularity, since it requires lower heat input and can be used to weld thin workpieces, as well as nonferrous materials
 
#443 ·
STT is fricken cool stuff :) at work right know we're trying to qualify a procedure (just started today actually) using stt and a metalcore fill and cap, pretty cool stuff and you can control a lot of stuff.

if you guys want to know more there's a good little write up on stt on lincoln's site under one of their stt machines, but from what i understand of it and how it works is that its just a fancier wave form that drops the voltage/amps (can't remember exactly buts there's a nice picture on the linocln site of the waveform) at a spefici time in the cycle to minimize the "explosion" per say that occurs when the wire hits the metal, what this does is minimizes spatter, as its damn near impossible to have absolutly zero spatter, and increase deposition rates and should improve quality and easy of use through the new found controlability of the arc.
 
#444 ·
Cause they probably have some kind of moron that's making big money as a "consultant" for the show, and he's teaching her to do that.

I believe they actually film that about 15 miles from my house. I sent them an email once and offered to help them out on some welding issues I had noticed....but perhaps they feel that education is criticism. :shaking:
 
#457 ·
not me : popcorn:
 
#461 · (Edited)
Wow, what a retarded fawking thread this turned out to be. Some good info and all it took is a few hurt ego's to screw it all up. Thanks for the tech Engloid and the others who shared.
To the rest, thanks for pooping in the sand box. :flipoff2:

edit: This but hurt bullshit is what makes searching this site a pain in the ass. The soul reason I don't contibute. Just a bunch of fucking clutter.
 
#463 ·
Here's a quick tip for some of you (yes, I'm helping people, and it's free):

There is an ignore feature here. It's in the "User CP" section.

Added, are:
SeaBass44 - goodbye, o' intolerant and ignorant one.

Whaley Interprises - Just had one hateful post directed at me, but I don't want to hear your BS anymore. BTW, I joined this forum in March of 2007.

Jessee at TLT - Same thing...just not going to read childishness and complaints. If you have a problem with somebody that tries to be helpful, I don't have time for your BS either. Goodbye.

So...when you guys post up, you might as well consider it more childishness, talking behind my back...cause I'll not see it...and be better for it.
 
#465 ·
x2. I personally like to learn from some of the older guys that have been around way longer than me. I dont give damn where and when you went to school, what local your in, blah blah blah. If someone like Engloid would take the time to teach me a few tips and tricks you better believe I would shut my mouth and open my ears. There are other forums besides Pirate, some that have waaaaaay more info on certain subjects (even welding) maybe some of the guys running there mouth should let there fingers do the walking and educate themself, so there not bring a knife to a gun fight.
 
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