So in my spare time from handling the wonderful world of DVD order fulfillment, I've been talking to some drivers about next years race. There has been a trend devloping about people worried about the 'No Chase' aspect of the race. More importantly how are we going to police it.
To be clear, so everyone is on the same page. This is a NO CHASE RACE. There will be a minimum of 3 pit stops on course. You can rebuild your entire car in the pits... but on the course you are limited to the resources that you have IN your car (Codriver, tools, spares..etc). If you don't have it... start walking.
What does this mean? If a car breaks down, you cannot except assistance from spectators, volunteers, crew members or rabid mountain goats... nobody.
You and you alone are responsible to get from pit to pit.
So how are we going to know? 100 Volunteers, helocopters, thousands of spectators, your own competition, and in car-online- GPS transponders. It will be quite obvious when something is fishy. And the GPS will refute or validate any claims.
Maybe I'm naive, but the bottom line, this is the DRIVERS repsonsibility. No one is going to hold you at gun point and make you take his spare off his trail rig. You know the rules.
As far as ramifications...this is where is gets really simple. If you cheat, whether you're caught at the time or a week later when that rabid mountain goat posts pics of you swapping in his distributor on Pirate, YOU WILL BE DISQUALIFIED. Not just from this race, but ANY race that we ever hold in the future.
I'm hearing rumors about people storing parts around the course... about people having their buddies be 'spectators' here and there. If you do it, I hope you enjoyed it a whole bunch... because it's the last time.
The whole purpose of this race is to survive this adventure. Not find new and creative ways to cheat. Load up your spares, wire up an onboard welder... Bring IT
What about roll-overs? Do you get a DQ if you're on your lid and a bunch of people from the crowd, or other racers, run over and push your junk back over?
1) Getting assistance from other competitors...isn't outside assistance. They can bump, pull, winch, whatever necessary to help you if they choose to do so. Including giving you parts and/or tools.
2) If you flop and spectators or course officials roll you over... you are good to go. Now if you flop and one of those spectators spare tires magically falls onto your car... you're out
I'm hearing rumors about people storing parts around the course... about people having their buddies be 'spectators' here and there. If you do it, I hope you enjoyed it a whole bunch... because it's the last time.
Make sense, don't need a bunch of secret parts and gas cans littered around the course.
Also, if rig were to 'push' another rig from behind, would that be cheating? Kinda like MD and the Red Bull Jeep last year. Technically they received assistance!
Also, if a rig breaks down one mile from the finish, can people jog to the finish line and still be considered as a 'finisher'? I hear Shannon Campbell can sprint pretty fast after a few Monster drinks.. :flipoff2:
So if these rules had been in force last year, Shannon campbell most likely would not have pulled off the amazing win that he did......Just an interesting observation is all
I disagree... if the rules were in place last year, Shannon would have planned for those cirumstances. Plus he changed his tire about 1000 yards from a pit
so the video we saw of JR getting link mounts welded back on, that wasn't in the pits was it? So your posterboy is DQ'd? or is this just for future races?
Just stirrin the pot! I like the rule - makes it an old school trail ride!
Just might be a bit overboard to completely ban people from future racing, maybe they're just trying to finish - to me it wouldn't be cheating then. Heck it might be harder to stop a nice volunteer from changing your tire than it would be to change it yourself.
A) I don't have a poster boy. If you're referring to the movie... it was just that, a movie.
B) Last year we didn't have these rules. It never came up.
C) Old school trail ride --- Exactly. This is an endurance/survival race. Not who can have the most support sitting around the desert. No one cheated last year. Not even close. But the race was evolving in a direction that neither Jeff or I intended. We may be making a bad decision. But I'm sticking with it.
D) As far as the 'harshness' of it, I don't really have any other way to enforce it. It would get sticky if Jeff or were making judgement calls about who got help and when. This way it's black and white. If you can't finish, try again next year.
The LCQ is going to be more time trialish. We won't start the next car inline until the preceeding car clears the waterfall. So that eliminates help from competitors. The spectators will be over 30 feet away from the spot that you could or would roll and we will have recovery crews EVERYWHERE.
The LCQ is a sprint. If you are stopping to fix your car, you've already lost.
Dave, don't sweat Blaze..all he ever does in stir shit in events he doesn't even compete in anyway...he was even working on taking over the world in Formula Toy just a few weeks ago, and doesn't even have an F-Toy. Mustard Dog, DToy, and the gang love him now...but W.E.ROCK is happy because he finally shut up about us after realising we won't put up with his shit...he's just moved on to F-Toy and KOH. :laughing:
Dave the other "area" that we should clarify now is the tech rules and inspection process for each of the vehicles in the race. This isn't a "cheating" issue more than a look the various safety items etc that ALL of the rigs should be equipped with. I know we are roughly following the WeRock rule book, but there are a few items that are not included that should be addressed.
The one item that I believe needs to be discussed is foam inserts in fuel tanks/cells. With nearly a hundred vehicles in the race there is a chance of a collision and a greater chance of fire without the foam. BITD, MORE, MDR, SCORE etc all require foam inserts, but WeRock is silent. Lets finalize the rulebook for tech so that we are all on the same page. If somone decides to "cheat" the safety rules or fluid containment requirements etc, we all loose.
Dave I thought part of the reason for this new rule was safety as well? now that there are 90 racers with potentially 90 or more "chase vehicles" what happens when someone doing 80mph backwards on the course comes upon people racing. Bad things can happen. I'm sure this is an issue with desert racing too but its also probably why Baja is in Mexico not in the US I know zilch about BITD and V2R but safety seems like it should be very important for KOH especially in working with the BLM.
I think its a very cool rule because it makes it more of a thinking race. Shannon said himself in Crawl from last years race he plans to be more prepared for 09 and that includes a spare.
Yep, safety plays a huge part in this. There are many reasons to make it a no chase race and I can't think of any reasons to allow chasing. This thread is more just to lay it out there so people know where we are coming from. It also sets the expectations for the spectators as well.
Sorry for bringing my fawkstick stalker with me into this dave - you've clearly expressed your stance and I think it will help alot for the competitors to know these things and the spectators too! Hate to see someone get a friend dq'd for trying to help!
Dustin drop your personal campaign and pm me or call me, I've pm'd you my number numerous times. Your the one that gets things all bent out of shape, so lets get it out this thread. I was trying to be constructive, your just a prick.
You've prooven yourself to be a total douchebag, even on the phone.
So after you talked mad shit about how awesome you are, even on a Larry Gipson scale, you go and place second to LAST in the one comp you show up to.....That's after saying how bad ass you are, and how you have all the answers to "FIX" the F-Toy class even though you have zero intentions of building and competing one.
The best part about your rambling bullshit is that you refuse to believe a basic F-Toy can stomp a mudhole into just about every Stock Mod out there, East and West, on scores on the same courses. Scores are easy to come by here, do a little searching noob......also if you want to be a whiner here, at least buck up for a red star
Thread hijack fully off now, sorry, it's just that 91blaze is a full awn dumbass
Thanks for the clarification on Spectators helping if you flop.
This issue came up this year at Spartanburgs Southeast series. As soon as we flopped the car over, some of our crew ran over to help us. We had to tell them to stop because of disqualification.
But its different here since the "old skool" trail ride rules apply in regards to flops. i.e. you flop, everyone cheers, a bunch of people run down, get you back on your wheels, you drive off" Reminisent of the old Rubicon trail videos with the Pirates.
I'm not delusional enough to think that Jeff and I don't have our hands full sticking to our roots.
That is the basis of all this. Obviously, I'm a little biased towards the Tin Benders... but that's only because I like to win:flipoff2:
NASCAR has its roots in bootlegging and dirttracks... we've got ours in 'old school' trail running where you and you alone are responsible for making it back to camp.
Hell, when I'm loading up for a night run and people ask if they can ride shot gun, I'll be honest and say the first thing that goes through my mind "will they be able to help if/when I break?":flipoff2:
1) Love the decision and direction. Love the serious punishment for cheating. Well done.
2) If/when KOH gets as big as I think it's going to - you may have "teams" entering, the way they do in cycle racing, where some unfortunate sap is there just to help the golden child - whether that be allowing them to rest while drafting or carrying extra kit for the front runner knowing they themselves aren't competative. Just something to think about. You may be able to handle it when you decide who gets in, you may have to make a "no teams" rule, or you may just interpret your existing rule that "competitors" can help you, but team mates aren't competitors?
3) If / when you decide you need to publish a rule book - I would be pleased to offer my assistance (and if, say, you were to remember that assistance with gratitude when, say, I submitted an application for '10 - well' that'd be your call .) A lot of rule books I have read are not up to the par required by an event as prestigous as KOH. In my current position I'm responsible for writing and interpreting operational requirements for a 5 billion dollar aircraft aquisition so I know a thing or two about the need for clear, precise, air-tight language. Just sayin! :flipoff2:
35 posts about cheating in the KOH and none about saving the Hammers? I don't get it. 4 of the 6 alternatives close down the Hammers. Have you read the notice of intent? Its only 4 pages.
35 posts about cheating in the KOH and none about saving the Hammers? I don't get it. 4 of the 6 alternatives close down the Hammers. Have you read the notice of intent? Its only 4 pages.
I love the rule because It kinda of levels the playing field! Run what Ya Brung! Not how much money you have, to have a chase car with everything you need on it. I'm not sure I will even have radios let alone welders and chase vehicles.
lol....No, I just have to drive 2 miles down the road to the old house and they wili have it. It happens so much, they expect it. I need to change the default address on Paypal to my current address....(even though I havent lived there for 8 years)
Well no spare will be on my truck. Too damn heavy. I'll have them at the pits. I will have a jack and 4way on board. If I am broke down any team out there can stop and take one of my wheels. I hope that other teams will do the same to keep a team going. I cant wait for KOH 09
I'm down with this. I don't trail ride with a spare tire and 100 extra pounds of parts and welders. That's at least 250# in extra junk. I don't want to race with it, I don't want to prerun with it for the next 4 months. I'm not setting my junk up as an adventure rally rig. I'm taking the chance of no spare.. If anybody rolls up on #51 and we are down, a tire is yours.
Dave what about if you’re broke down to a point where you haft to have outside assistance. Could you call you self out of the race but get fixed and just continue the course? If in that situation once fixed you would be required to leave the course?
Good question. Add to this - if a competitor goes down, and DQ's themselves for breakdown, and gets help and gets fixed and decides (and is allowed) to carry on for fun - what if some time later they are involved in some blockage or incident that changes the outcome of the race?
Flats don't end your race... just your wheels if you keep running on them.
And I can confirm that a flat can be run-on through Sunbonnet, Wrecking Ball, Clawhammer, Lower and Upper Big Johnson, and through the desert... it's not pleasant, and you have to pretty much write-off ever salvaging anything downstream of the lugnuts, but it's possible.
I might be crazy enough to race an all-wheel-steer Tatra and toss out spare parts along the way, who wants to sponsor me one? :rasta:
We'll have a spare (or three) this time around, but I'm playing it by ear depending on course layout and pit locations as to whether we'll have it on the car, or pit(s). And I'm going back to my own beadlocks on steel wheels--throwing away aluminum wheels because I ran a trail or two on a flat is getting old.
It's a tough situation because as it's already been said, if someone does continue, they are risking taking someone else down if they get stuck or broke somewhere else. If they are no longer really in the race, it's going to be tough to swallow.
Also, I would think that once you broke and were officially out, you couldn't move on, then help someone else out with tools/parts from your rig. If you're going to do what RJ is already planning, and give away what's left after the fire :dustin:, you'd have to do that from the spot you've broken at, and only supplying what you've brought with you.
There are a number of factors to the rule, but as long as they are defined in advance, it's a fair race. Thanks for getting this ball rolling Dave and Jeff as it is something every team will need to prepare for. Knowing the full rules on this, in advance, will help them prepare correctly.
Lets say you break in a way where you simply cannot limp to a pit. Example, torn off link mount like JR last year. You are not carrying an onboard welder, and you are blocking a very tight section of trail, with very little room for people to get around you. You are now a "trail tampon".
Going by what you've posted here, this is how I think it should work. You call in the cavalry, and get your junk fixed or dragged out of the way. You are now DQ'd from the race because of outside assistance. At this point I dont think that you should be allowed to run the course. You are no longer a racer, and continuing on could adversely affect those that are still in the race, either by you having a slower pace, or by breaking again and putting in another tampon.
I dont think you should be banned from future races, as this scenario is simply you getting your junk outta the way, not actually cheating.
This is my view of how it should go, but I think Dave and/or Jeff need to make a solid ruling on how it IS going to go. We all know that this situation is not unlikely.
Good example of how blanket rules aren't the best sometimes. I would hope that if you say officially "I am done", then receive help that you won't be banished from KOH for life.
The think(hope) everyone knows the spirit of the race.
I belive Dave's ban is implied torward some of the rumors we are hearing regarding cheaters and their plans.
BITD is "no chase" that is what we looked at as a role model. if you break and and can't fix it your self you wait till the race is over and get a trailer.
As with BITD we will have the Premire Power welder recovery crew again this year and they should be able to help with any trail tampons that need metal stuck together.
1.) safety is a concern in allowing chasing
2.) its not fair that some one with celebrity or fortune could stack pit crews all over the desert
3.) Hammerking and the BLM don't want you rebuilding your junk all across the desert and possibly leaving a fluid spill, we want to be able to walk up to you and remind you to clean your mess. Thats why we have pits.
4.) we don't have the abilty to make it an adventure like Vegas 2 Reno or the Baja 1000 where you have vast expanses of desert with no one to help you with out fabricating a rule like this to give you that "virtual" reality.
5.) the spirit of the race is being prepared
I could go on but I'm late for a date with LA traffic.
Happy Halloween, more rule updates to follow as we are trying to get a handle on all things regarding the race currently. Thanks WEROCK for posting the highspeed rules.
As with BITD we will have the Premire Power welder recovery crew again this year and they should be able to help with any trail tampons that need metal stuck together.
This to me seems to be in some kind of conflict? Not just that it's going against the Drivers being responsible for repairing their own junk, but that with this large of a field of competitors if you happen to break right next to the welder, you are in some pretty damn good luck!! Someone half way across the course that it might take 45 minutes to get the welder to, not so lucky. It would almost be nice if it was like WE.ROCK in the sense that if the welder is there, and you are being a trail tampon, you can either try and fix it yourself, or take the easy option and accept the outside help fully knowing that your race is over and the repair is to get you off the course as it will DQ you.
Some might consider it unfair if the welder happened to be closer to one person, or even equally in between two broken cars, each with an equal chance of winning, and whoever the 'officials' or welder crew decide to go and help, wins the race, dooming the other to losing.
To be clear, so everyone is on the same page. This is a NO CHASE RACE. There will be a minimum of 3 pit stops on course. You can rebuild your entire car in the pits... but on the course you are limited to the resources that you have IN your car (Codriver, tools, spares..etc). If you don't have it... start walking.
What are your guidelines for 'rebuilding' the car in the pit? I can imagine some of the higher dollar race teams being able to supply two, fully built identical race ready vehicles, identical to each other, and supplying the next pit with this vehicle. Ok it's doubtful, but to extinguish any concern, there should be some regulations to this. Like the original chassis must finish the course. This allows them to swap out everything in it (motor, trans, tcase, axles, wheels, tires) and repair their existing chassis in the race.
This to me seems to be in some kind of conflict? Not just that it's going against the Drivers being responsible for repairing their own junk, but that with this large of a field of competitors if you happen to break right next to the welder, you are in some pretty damn good luck!! Someone half way across the course that it might take 45 minutes to get the welder to, not so lucky. It would almost be nice if it was like WE.ROCK in the sense that if the welder is there, and you are being a trail tampon, you can either try and fix it yourself, or take the easy option and accept the outside help fully knowing that your race is over and the repair is to get you off the course as it will DQ you.
Some might consider it unfair if the welder happened to be closer to one person, or even equally in between two broken cars, each with an equal chance of winning, and whoever the 'officials' or welder crew decide to go and help, wins the race, dooming the other to losing.
I assume that this year if you are assisted by the welding crew you will be DQ'ed. You would just recieve assistance to get your vehicle off the course.
This thread is about CHEATING not breaking. No one is going to be banned for breaking. There is going to be 45+ rigs broken that will require some sort of assistance to get back to camp. There is no issue with that whatsoever.
Cheating is breaking the rules, and then pretending that you didn't.
Breaking and getting assistance to gets you DQ'd...continuing on the course and denying it happened gets you banned.
this thread is about cheating not breaking. No one is going to be banned for breaking. There is going to be 45+ rigs broken that will require some sort of assistance to get back to camp. There is no issue with that whatsoever.
Cheating is breaking the rules, and then pretending that you didn't.
Breaking and getting assistance to gets you dq'd...continuing on the course and denying it happened gets you banned.
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