Well, I went to bed thinkin about how to get a decent AntiSquat percentage outta my leaf sprung POS. My traction bar is illustrated below:

http://members.cox.net/wresticle/now.JPG

as you can see, it probably has about 300% AS with this setup. As well as the johnnie joints allowing for some axle wrap, this thing hops like a beachball whenever i get the slightest bit vertical...

This is my idea, 2 separate links, like this:

http://members.cox.net/wresticle/possibly.JPG

Do you think it's a good idea? Think i would lose any flex?? I think that by having the lower arm a bit shorter, it will help follow the spring's natural travel just a little bit. It will move forwards as it droops, but the rotation of the axle will bind against the spring. I can take a decrease in flex if it means i can get the damn thing to climb. Also, I will be swapping the rear leafs to Alcans, and going about 2" longer wheelbase when I do this...

I think it is important when building a leaf sprung traction bar to calcualte the "ideal location for a pivot point..... I've tried to attach an image. Leaf springs will travil in a pretty circular motion and If you find that ideal center point and have that be the location where your beams pass through you shouldn't recive any loss in flex..... If not the traction bar and your leaf springs will fight each other and bind........ I know this isn't drawn quite right but you get the idea....

i hear you John Deere, but I want it to climb stuff. I know my proposed setup will bind some, but I don't know how bad. The way you show it, it may flex a little better, but the AS will go through the roof, probably causing more wheelhop than i have now...

ELFy, go back to bed. Start dream'n about a real 4 link.

been doin that for years, PIG. I tell you what, why don't you GIVE me 2 coil-overs and some heims, and I'll put PolyPerformance stickers all over my rig!!!


Until then, i gotta keep on doin what i can afford...

Originally posted by John Deere Ranger
I think it is important when building a leaf sprung traction bar to calcualte the "ideal location for a pivot point..... I've tried to attach an image. Leaf springs will travil in a pretty circular motion and If you find that ideal center point and have that be the location where your beams pass through you shouldn't recive any loss in flex..... If not the traction bar and your leaf springs will fight each other and bind........ I know this isn't drawn quite right but you get the idea....

Then you would have a traction bar as long as your leaf from center pin to eye, and the traction bar would have to be parell to the leaf from centerpin to eye.

Is that what your saying?

IS the only way to have both with out binding, is to have a longer leaf and a longer traction bar...

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
been doin that for years, PIG. I tell you what, why don't you GIVE me 2 coil-overs and some heims, and I'll put PolyPerformance stickers all over my rig!!!


Until then, i gotta keep on doin what i can afford...

BBWWWAAAAAAHHHHHAAAAAA.........................:fl ipoff2:

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
LOTS OF STUFF!

Is your anti wrap bar locating your axle?:flipoff2: Sounds like some Gen 4x4 physics going on here:D

Try lowering your front spring mount a bit;)

i dont think its the traction bar or the springs so much is your trying to get a wide and heavy truck up something steep, its hard to do:flipoff2: what i recommend is you take your own advice that you gave on an earlier thread..........i think it went something like this dont run 35s on a 35c, dont run 44 inch tires on a 44, dont run 60s on a 60s, dont run 70 inch tires on a 70, and so on....so what im sayn is dont run ROCKS on a ROCKwell:flipoff2:

I would've figured you went to bed dreaming of actually finishing a trail. :flipoff2:

Originally posted by rockracer
so what im sayn is dont run ROCKS on a ROCKwell:flipoff2:


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D :D

man, what was i thinking trying to get helpful advice from you jokers??:rolleyes: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

LAME: why would i want to lower the front spring hanger? That would just lift the rig, and tilt the pinion down. My leafs do NOTHING to help axle wrap. ALL of the wrap force gets transferred through the traction bar into the chassis.

Hasn't anyone tried this before?? If not, i guess i'll just do it, and see what happens...

I think the linked traction you have drawn will most likely stuff your springs. If you dont ave the links absolutely perfect and in sinc with the leaf springs it will bend them (the springs). I think Ive seen pics of what you have drawn but with valve springs on the chassis end of the traction so that the bars do give when the leaf spring loads them up.

Personally I would just go with a tight centre limiting strap which will also cause loss of flex but you could only hook it up for the steep stuff.

Sam

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
man, what was i thinking trying to get helpful advice from you jokers??:rolleyes: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

LAME: why would i want to lower the front spring hanger? That would just lift the rig, and tilt the pinion down. My leafs do NOTHING to help axle wrap. ALL of the wrap force gets transferred through the traction bar into the chassis.

Hasn't anyone tried this before?? If not, i guess i'll just do it, and see what happens...

Lowering it reduces your antisquat.

Think of the front part of your leafs (axle forward) as control arms, from the axle back is the spring. You anti wrap bar doesn't locate the axle. It is just a band-aid.

Your leaf springs are still what is locating your axles. The traction bar can move front and back - it is not really pivoting on the pivot point noted in the first image.

I think you have the wrong idea about where the anti-squat line would be in your leaf setup - although I am not sure where it would be. Would it be through the front spring hanger?

CAZ

LAME: i know what you're saying, but with rockwells, the leafs aren't enough to even begin to control axle wrap. I need to run a wrap bar. The wrap bar is not supposed to locate the axle, it is just supposed to prevent axle wrap. But the torque produced by axle wrap is still there. It gets transferred into the chassis by the wrap bar, just like on a linked suspension. Believe me, it's not a band-aid. I couldn't even drive the thing on the road until i made that wrap bar. Remember, i have a pinion brake, so i get reverse axle wrap when i hit the brakes too. I think I will run a center limit strap as well, I am just wondering if this 2 link idea is better/worse than a traditional wrap bar and shackle???

CAZ, when running leafs with no traction bar, the AS line would depend on the location of the spring hanger, but with the traction arm, a great majority of wrap force gets transferred through that arm, and not through the spring, therefore you would use the point at which the wrap bar attaches to the chassis as your Instant Center, make sense??

i have seen it done

if you looked at the landcruzer on The Wheelin Ranch thread that is what he runs in the front.....he used tractor links from tractor supply it seemed to work with his leafs and rockwells

do you mean that "other" yellow cruiser with Rockwells?? :(

I saw a pic of it, but none up close of the suspension. Do you know how i could get in touch with the guy?

what you need to try to do is lower the front mounting point on your traction bar. i assume its atached to a shackle? flip it around and put it in compresion instead of tension.. that ought to move it down low enough that it makes every thing closer to parrelell with the ground rather than pointing uphill..

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
do you mean that "other" yellow cruiser with Rockwells?? :(

I saw a pic of it, but none up close of the suspension. Do you know how i could get in touch with the guy?

thats the one you sopied off right elfie? :flipoff2:

The second 2 link design would not allow for the changes in length in the front half of the leaf spring as it travels in its arc so it would cause excessive suspension bind. That is what the shackle on the first pic is for.

run 4-link with 1/4 eliptical.

this will be chaepen than all those leaves you keep buying :flipoff2:

and don't bitch about $ quarter elip is cheap

stop trying to ghetto fab shit and get a real 4- link

and i agree with you that rockwells shouldn't be run on the rocks :flipoff2:

Wes...solid links and leaf springs will find the weak point...ask me how I know or stop by the shop and I'll show you a spring pin to go with your springs...Randy is working his magic when I don't bother him...my best guess is to lower the pivot for the shackle and improve your springs to handle the increased weight of the axle over the stock setup....my springs won't work cause it won't handle the axle weight....the cruiser is looking...thin, guess its time to start working out.....

you say that the reason you can't do a link setup is $$, but youre getting alcans. take that 4hundo or so and buy 4-8 RE joints, some sleeved pipe, and put some stock xj or zj coils on that pig. you'll be much happier. leafs work better on lighter tigs with smaller axles IMO-----brad

Originally posted by rockracer
so what im sayn is dont run ROCKS on a ROCKwell:flipoff2:

Oh shit. I think I just pissed my pants.

Just let me know if you need those boat anchors taken off your hands. I've got a big stack of metal going to the refinery, and I'm sure those will pull at least $5 a piece! (If not $6!)

I say go 4 link and save your Domino's pennies for a couple of coilovers. You could by one at a time if you had to. :flipoff2:

here is ta web site http://www.mindspring.com/~jayk3/toyota/rear_susp.htm



This is the traction bar design Chris (azrckcrawler) uses ask him how he likes it Elf:p

I have to agree with T1H5 on this one. flip the shackle into compression instead of tension and run the top bar of the traction bar parallel with the front side of the leaf spring. Its been workin for years on my truck.

I was gonna get the Alcan's cheap from coyote, hehehe. Now I am starting to think along the lines of double shackle leafs and a 4 link...

I have wheeled with chrisV a few times, and can tell you his truck is just like mine. So is BadAzYj's. Too much wheelhop, not enough wheelbase...


thanks for the advice guys, I just wish there was a cheap way to do it nicely, but ohh well...

QUARTER ELLIPTICAL IS CHEAPER AND EASIER THAN THAT SHIT YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT

hmm....

My rear suspension works good.
1 stick of sch 80 pipe, $35
8 2" polly bushings from ORD, $44
1 pair of XJ coils used... $50
Misc scrap flat bar for tabs $15
Square tubing for receiver hitch style adjustable coil buckets, $15

Sounds pretty cheap to me. :flipoff2:

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
I was gonna get the Alcan's cheap from coyote, hehehe. Now I am starting to think along the lines of double shackle leafs and a 4 link...

I have wheeled with chrisV a few times, and can tell you his truck is just like mine. So is BadAzYj's. Too much wheelhop, not enough wheelbase...


thanks for the advice guys, I just wish there was a cheap way to do it nicely, but ohh well...

Wes, if your truck was just like mine there would be less jawing on here and more wheeling. Personally after seeing yours run last weekend I'd take it back to where you came from, sell it and then come back and buy/build something for the rocks. You need to be way lighter and narrower. Something like the black tubed out Sammy, my buddy Brian has about 4k + labor into that rig.

The top of the rig is fine though! Cruisers are awesome! Wes, you can drop those boat anchors off at the docks. I'm sure that someone can put them to good use. :)

Originally posted by McSoo
The top of the rig is fine though! Cruisers are awesome! Wes, you can drop those boat anchors off at the docks. I'm sure that someone can put them to good use. :)

Did you see any of the rigs that ran hard trails all weekend? Excluding the comp buggy's (two ran, one broke), I notice a distinct lack of sheetmetal. I also noticed a lack of large motors and monster axles. Lol, what's the top of the rig have to do with anything? I ditch everything up top when I run hard stuff. What matters is underneath. Get a small, light frame, deep gearing, ample axles, spares and come out and play. No one is saying you can't build a Cruiser, but if he wants to wheel the hard stuff every weekend sometime soon, I think Wes would be better off selling now and buying a better base rig. He may even have money left over. Just my opinion.

Hell, he'd get alot farther than he does now if he threw the stock cruiser axles back under his rig. The Rockwells are the only thing holding him back.

elf cruiser,
I think your setup with the top traction bar design is what is causing the wheel hop. as you load the driveshaft, the pinion wants to turn up. Well since the triangular traction bar is attached by two points on the axle it will lift the end of the traction bar and pulls the axle forward(by compressing the front part of the leaf spring) which picks up the frame. Then as the axle reaches the lowest point it is going to travel(furthest from the frame), momentum of the frame and body moving up still unloads the tires enough for some tire spin and it bounces back down and the cycle happens again. Iwas going to build a style like that until I realized that even with the shackle, it still doesnt allow the axle to droop with the pinion anlge in the plane the springs want to hold it in... No idea if that makes sense, but your traction bar is working very similar to a drag car where it lifts the rear, aiding traction on the horizontal plane, but in your case in the more vertical plane(climbing) the lifting is not putting more pressure on the ground in the downward direction, it is pushing the truck out away from the hill/rocks... Changing the shackle orientation wont change the dynamics here.

Not that that helps a whole lot to solve it, but I am going to try the single bar that has the correct rasius for the travel of the springs.

The four link with a doubleed shackle setup should work though.

Originally posted by Bad Karma
Hell, he'd get alot farther than he does now if he threw the stock cruiser axles back under his rig. The Rockwells are the only thing holding him back.

I was thinking the same thing.

one problem i see is people keep refering to the radious of the arc the spring takes.... sorry to break it to you, but if you havent noticed, if you were to mock it up on paper and take into acount how the spring length grows and shrinks while going up and down, you will find that it moves in an eliptical patern, not just a basic curve with a set radious. that is one of the reasons you wind up with some bind. the best thing you can do is make the track bar as long as posable, run it as flat as posable and put a shackle on the front to alow springs to grow/shrink......

Originally posted by Bad Karma
Hell, he'd get alot farther than he does now if he threw the stock cruiser axles back under his rig. The Rockwells are the only thing holding him back.

Another good option, easy on the budget too.

Originally posted by T1H5_TA3
one problem i see is people keep refering to the radious of the arc the spring takes.... sorry to break it to you, but if you havent noticed, if you were to mock it up on paper and take into acount how the spring length grows and shrinks while going up and down, you will find that it moves in an eliptical patern, not just a basic curve with a set radious. that is one of the reasons you wind up with some bind. the best thing you can do is make the track bar as long as posable, run it as flat as posable and put a shackle on the front to alow springs to grow/shrink......


The axle will move in an elipitical pattern, due to the pivoting on the spring pin and the compression(arch change) of the spring, but you can get pretty close approximation of the radius with a correctly designed single traction bar. With the triangular design, you are still forcing the spring to move against its relaxed travel, because the axle is moving in an arc radius that is the length of the traction bar, with a little play added by the shackle. The shackle CANT account for the the fact that the traction bar will point the pinion roughly at the pivot point for all of its travel. Still a compromise. Just for an example, undo the shackle and cycle through the suspenion travel. There is no way the tip of the traction bar will remain at the same distance from the shackle pivot point throught the range of travel. It will approximately parallel the axle travel, with some rotation for springs without centered spring pins.

All said, a traction bar is a compromise, no one can be perfect, so pick your design and make it work the best...

so elf cruiser, have you ever considered going leaf under in the rear only? Minor issue would be a lack of lift but that can be addressed with 5" lift packs and extended mounts on the frame. The benefit would be no axle rap or hopping. I have been thinkin' of trying it out myself.

edit---I don't know what tire you're running but radials might "aggrivate" the hop problem because they tend to store energy in the sidewalls.....a bias plys don't.

I have to agree with cruiserbrett about the "third link" with two connection points. I can see how this transfers torque.
I still think a single connection point will work without transferring the torque.

I'm jumping in late on this build up, and don't have all the facts.

When I first read your post I thought "third link on top of the dif housing to a connection point on the same plane as your upper U-joint"

I'm still pondering on this set up using rockwells. I need to look at a rockwell to see how to connect it to the dif.

I'm also still wondering why a four link would work and a third link won't. It seems to be a popular opinion. Don't under stand the benefit.

I am assuming that you have tried a typical traction bar assembly.
(Over the spring to the fron mount).

Show me some pics so I can see what your talking about.

Cruiserbrett - great explanation of what is happening right now with my suspension, and why it doesn't climb. I understand the problem, I just can't decide how i want to go about solving it. A center limit strap would really help matters...

ChrisV - I did not mean to say that our rigs are the same overall. My statement was made in the context of climbing up stuff. I should have worded it "our rigs climb the same" In other words, we both have wheel hop and short wheelbases, and generally can't get over anything vertical. Our trucks are also the exact same color...

SilverZuk, here's a pic for ya:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=1073366

And to all the other rockwell haters: :flipoff2:

You say i should put cruiser axles back under my rig?:rolleyes:

I don't think so...

And I won't sell it, I've had it too long.

The problem is not the rockwells, the problem is i am too wide and too short to fit into some of the trails out here. Rockwells have nothing to do with how wide I am. I could be 72" wide on rockwells if i wanted to, but I don't. I am thinking around the 82-84" wide realm will work well, and at least 105" wheelbase.

I remember someone suggesting building a 4 link as it sits, and then when you can afford it, buy the coilovers. You'll already have the links made and ready to go, so pretty much you'd just have to bolt in the coilovers. That sounds like a good idea.

Rockwells are not the problem??? :rolleyes:
You're trying every kind of band-aid fix you can think of to justify having those axles. The Rockwells are the problem if you can't keep them under control. They're just too big and heavy to be practical. Sure, you may never break an axle again, but look at what you're having to go through just to try to make them work reliably. It just doesn't make sense. Cruiser axles with Super Birfs make sense. Wheeling is more fun than dicking around with something that doesn't work. :flipoff2:

1st off,
Put the dam military wrap where it belongs!

Flipped springs without the military wrap in the spring mount is dangerous...

You can make that pic with 32"tires on a stock rig. It has nothing to do with the rockwells...

i would and did have these EXACT same issues on cruiser axles. THE AXLES ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!!! IF I HAD 60's OR CRUISER AXLES ALL THIS SAME SHIT WOULD BE HAPPENING!!!!!!!

I know I need links in the long run, but I'm looking for a cheap and easy way of doing something better than what I have now, until I can do coil-overs and rear steer.

Please keep all other comments to yourself. I know everyone hates my axles, and i really don't give a shit, OK?? Maybe all you guys like having the same rig with the same parts, but I like a little variety.

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
Please keep all other comments to yourself. I know everyone hates my axles, and i really don't give a shit, OK?? Maybe all you guys like having the same rig with the same parts, but I like a little variety.

You'll always be a spectator. :rolleyes:

There there...

A 4 link wouldn't be hard at all. Pick up some tube, some heims, and yer set! I think ~200 in materials is cheaper than new springs ever time you wheel.

What a bunch of assholes. Guys asks about his idea, and all you do is tell him it's his axles. :rolleyes:

Hope you don't call this fawker friends.....:flipoff2:

I for one have done the exact same thing to my springs with stock cruiser axles. Are his rockwells to blame for that too?? Maybe I should send him a bill huh?? :flipoff2: Jason hit it on the head, military wrap sould be up there, that will help.

Here is the way to figure out if your idea works elf.........Tack some tabs on the axle where you 2 links will be, tack some tabs on the cross member where the upper links will be, then go out and flex the hell out of it......measure the distance between them at rest, stuff passenger side, stuff driverside and over all drop. If they are similar in length, try your idea and see what happens. Shit if your already bending springs it couldn't hurt to try it out right??

What kind of springs are those?

They look way too thin.
At least change out the main leaf to a different spring (obviously to a different type of spring)

The springs are your problem.
The thickness of your axle tubes are multiplying the torque on your spring (lever).

Go to a thicker main leaf, and put a traditional type of traction bar on it.

I would consider a square tubing from the top of U-bolt to near the front of the spring. Put a bump stop on the top and bottom.
That's a poor mans fix and will help.
Spring under would be the ultimate fix.
I still think a third link to the top of the dif housing will work too.

You got me on where to mount it???

I know Mcsoo, but that's an awful lot of work to do over again when i get a front end in the rear. I think the best option right now is to swap the springs and redo the traction bar, and add a center strap. Then just go from there...

JasonM, i hear you about the military wrap, I'm sure you know all about stock cruiser leaves and why mine are how they are...

hey Coyote - are your springs mil. wrapped at both ends??

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
hey Coyote - are your springs mil. wrapped at both ends??

mine are military wrapped at both ends. Took em to a shop in Reno and had them done. Never had a problem since. :D

I might try to bolt it to the pinion shaft flange.

Try to keep the geometry the same as your d-shaft.
and leave enough slop in it for flex (use poly bushings).

The only purpose of this link is to transfer torque from the top of the housing into the frame and off of the springs.

GlowNDark, that's a very good idea, and I can do it here at my apt. complex, lol!!

SilverZuk, I personally don't care for the single torque arm, but if you want to do it, there are tons of places to mount it to on the carrier. The easiest would probably be the top inspection cover over the pinion. There are like 10 3/8" bolts, just make a bracket that goes all the way around, and weld some tabs onto it...

Originally posted by McSoo
I remember someone suggesting building a 4 link as it sits, and then when you can afford it, buy the coilovers. You'll already have the links made and ready to go, so pretty much you'd just have to bolt in the coilovers. That sounds like a good idea.

Thats what Im talking about, you may even just keep it that way with leafs... also no BIG down time if you converting to coilovers!!