What are the advantages/strength differences between a kingpin and a balljoint? Ive heard that kingpins are stronger, but nobody can give me any proof as to why. I tried searching but to no extent.

Anyone got any real supporting info to share?

Kingpin is the only way to go, Because they use a bearing, as oposed to a balljoint.

Originally posted by Jeepmangled87
Kingpin is the only way to go, Because they use a bearing, as oposed to a balljoint.


thats all that needs to be said. king pin is far better

Originally posted by 2stroke



thats all that needs to be said. king pin is far better


Is there a reason for its superiority?

IMHO, kingpin is far superior.

The reason for its superiority is kingpin strength and durability of the kingpins relative to balljoints. The easy high steer is an extra bonus.

That said... is there an interest in brand-new kingpin knuckles if they could be had, stronger than Chevy stock, with all-new parts? I've got a friend at a foundry pattern shop.... :)

Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper

That said... is there an interest in brand-new kingpin knuckles if they could be had, stronger than Chevy stock, with all-new parts? I've got a friend at a foundry pattern shop.... :)

Yes, build it. Both the inner 'C' and the knuckle. If all the parts needed are available new, a person doesn't need to scrounge stuff off a junkyard 60. Sell a complete kit, and it makes it a bunch easier for people to build 44/60 hybrids or 9"/60 hybrids, or to build their Tera 60's or 50's or whatever.

Since folks are paying WMC and welderboy 1500 for theirs I'd say there is. Got some specifics?

No specifics yet. Got a set of Chevy knuckles that we're probably gonna pattern off of, but redesign a little to beef up important high-stress areas (like around the upper kingpin). Inner C's will be part of the deal--no inner C's, no go on the project. Entire part will probably be superior material and strength to the stock stuff.

Personally, I want to see it such that it's a much-improved outer that'll fit on a stock inner C (so guys who already have a 60, but have crappy/broken knuckles can just get new outers, Ford axle guys can put Chevy knuckles on, etc.), and use stock Chevy spindles and kingpin parts. Further upgrading the upper kingpin to use a bearing instead of a bushing, is a further-down-the-road possibility, but there's guys out there that already do that.

Don't get too antsy-drooly about it yet (I'm already antsy-drooly enough for the entire board) 'cause if I see usable parts by Easter I'll be surprised. There's something on the order of $10k worth of pattern work alone, once the design is finalized, that'll have to go into this one... and I don't have $10k. :(

I have both types, so I can give you an opinion, not scientific as you'd like, but good enough :rolleyes:
Pros to kingpin design: overall size & ease of repair in the field plus your hysteer arm has more contact surface with the top of the knuckle - 4 mounting studs
Pros to ball joint style: wider turning radius & no grease seepage between the joints
Kingpin negatives: grease leakage at the top & bottom bearings
Ball joints: 3 or 4 mounting studs (depending on mfg. or machine your own knuckle tops flat) aligned in a row - narrow surface contact, unit hub bearing design prohibits you from buying seperate parts - more expensive

I have found that both Dynatrac and Sunray use balljoints on all their custom axles unless otherwise specified by the customer.

Why would they use ball joints if kingpins are so far superior? Im trying to find any solid proof as to why, not just b/c hysteer is easier to do. I know the principle behind each, just want solid facts as to why one would be superior to the other.

TIA

Originally posted by Jeepin_NC
Why would they use ball joints if kingpins are so far superior?

I think they do this because they build with new parts and you can't buy new kingpins but you can buy new balljoint inner and outer C's ... I could be wrong though. just never seen new kingpins for sale anywhere.

- jack

Originally posted by Jeepin_NC
Why would they use ball joints if kingpins are so far superior? Im trying to find any solid proof as to why, not just b/c hysteer is easier to do. I know the principle behind each, just want solid facts as to why one would be superior to the other.

Because you cannot currently buy new kingpin D60 knuckles. You can currently buy new balljoint D60 knuckles.

If I sell you an axle that was built with a new pair of tubes, and a used centersection, and used knuckles, and say "here's your brand-new axle", you'd be (rightfully) screaming "Fraud!". That's not new parts--it's remanufactured/used parts.

The reason you can't buy new kingpin D60 knuckles any more, is 'cause none of the OEM's use them any more. Ball joints are cheaper, and strong enough (when used with smaller tires) to run for most setups. When Dodge and Ford finally said "we don't need kingpins any more", Dana said "OK, we won't make them any more", and Dodge and Ford probably owned the tooling to make them, and aren't willing to part with it.

So... the bottom line is... the bottom line. Balljoints are less expensive, and a savings of $20 each, on a million trucks, is a hell of a lot of cash. Ford (and Dodge) found a way to save $20 each on a lot of trucks, so they're doing it. Chevy abandoned straight axle front ends a while before. It's not that balljoints are superior; it's that they're cheaper. It's also not that kingpins are not as good; it's that they're more expensive.

We're just now seeing aftermarket kingpin outers. Thankfully :D

I'm not familiar with Sunray but I was told by Dynatrac a year or so ago that they use the ball joint knuckles because the king pin stuff is not available anymore from Dana. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Dynatrac MAKES the parts (knuckles), they only assemble them in the configuration of your choice.

Scott, talk to WB about the bearing set up - it does not have seals to protect it from the elements nor will it work with an OE knuckle. It's REALLY COOL but it seems to be competition only.

Man I type slow.

From my experiences a balljoint front end, be it a 44 or a 60 will very likely break a balljoint if you break a ujoint/axle at the yokes and keep driving. Kingpin will too but it seems to be way harder to kill the kingpin. There are many times you cannot just stop wheeling when you break an axle- seems like most times you need to get out of the way and I won't risk killing my steerability/ movability with balljoints.

Dynatrac MAKES the knuckles and end forgings.

Boyce Equipment still has a limited supply of kingpin knuckles, AFAIK - bought some many months ago. Parts Mike has inner
"C" for ball joints, but the only place I've seen inner kingpin "C's" are used on Ebay & they're not cheap. I remember talking with Gerald at Sunray Engineering about developing custom kingpin knuckles, he said they may be coming out with some, but with a bearing on the top instead of the teflon bushing. The foundry costs he mentioned were :eek:

seth

they do now but when they started they did not. once the started with balljoits the train was already moving and they never went back to king pins.

in all honesty this is the main reason i built the camo 60. just refused to fork over 6k for a new 60 that was all stock parts and ball joint to boot.


scott

yes there is a demand for kingpin axle end "C" but be carefull if you make them. they are not cast they are forged. casting will not be strong enuff.

I have a kingpin 60 and will be going to a ball joint 60 one the time around. There is the durability of the "C" on the king pin 60 if you bust a u-joint that is far better and the mounting of the hysteer arm is nice. But the kingpin " and knuckle is sloppy are best, a mess, but most of all it uses up the best places to mount the shocks. With a kingpin 60 it will move around some because it only held ther by a spring so it does move some and F!ck up the shocks I do have mounted near it and over steer the u-joints. So I am going with a ball joint 60 so that the steering is on a fixed plane and when the knuckle hits the steering stops it STOPS. The hysteer part is not a big deal to me but could be to others that don't own a mill. So in short I own a kingpin 60 and would rather have a balljoint 60.

Originally posted by Jeepin_NC
I have found that both Dynatrac and Sunray use balljoints on all their custom axles unless otherwise specified by the customer.


i have not been to sunray in over a year but last i saw every axle i have see from sunray has been a king pin 60. i am sure they will use whatever thay can get but like i said all that i have seen have been kingpin versions....i have seen quite a few.

they use junk yard axles for parts when building thier hybrid fronts. this is why i say they'll use whatever.

Dynatrac MAKES the knuckles and end forgings

Are you sure?? They have thier own foundry? Or do they have someone make them for them?

Scott.....hell yea there's an interest....but I guess you'll have to figure out if there's enough interest to justify the investment.

If you do produce - I think I may just go rear steer, just to support you :D

from what i have gathered, it seems that in stock form neither is much better than the other, for costs, go the kinpin, with two-piece style bearings, for costs, and better high steer

the balljoint, has greater turning radius, and some guys say they break off easier after you break an axle...OUCH....

camos bearing style seems cool though

edit: after reading more above, the general consensus would suggest kingpin is a far better option (im a stoner) and stand corrected!!

Ok, I don't doubt that all of you are correct in knowing that there is no source for new kingpin knuckles and "C"'s. but maybe... You all know of those E350 vans that Quigley(sp?) cpnverts to 4x4. Well they come with Kingpin 60's. Now are these 60s just leftovers that Ford, Dana, someone had? Or are they new?
Whats the story?

Phil

i think dana off road divesion still makes the king pin. very hard to get parts from them with out the minimum order of $250,000. maybe he gets them through some side channel of that divesion. curious

Billybobs Quigly 4x4 van from ford is a 2000 and it has a king pin 60 in it and it was all new so i feel those parts are out there just nobody has stumbled into someone who has a job where these parts are obtained.if thats the case then that only proves my thoughts that most of the big houses use ball joint crap for profit reasons and not the "we cant get those parts new any more reasons"the inner "C"would be better made from a hammer forgeing then a cast one i would think

Originally posted by camo
i think dana off road divesion still makes the king pin. very hard to get parts from them with out the minimum order of $250,000. maybe he gets them through some side channel of that divesion. curious

CAMO or anyone,

Do you have the part number for the inner King Pin knuckle?

Anyone?

I'm assuming the knuckle assembly is only the outer knuckle, am I correct in this? All the dana books I've point to just the outer knuckle as the knuckle assembly.

Also the Dana Catalog (http://www2.dana.com/expert/wc.dll?cvsp~depdf~3~_0LG0NK80V~ ) X510-2CVSP for Ford only (1978-2002) doesn't list anything about Van king pin knuckle.

the axle "C" is not availabe from the dealer as far as i can tell.

Why are the Ford King Pin outers more prone to breakage than the Chevy Kingpin outers, ?

Originally posted by camo
the axle "C" is not availabe from the dealer as far as i can tell. there was a set on ebay last ngiht,

Originally posted by camo
the axle "C" is not availabe from the dealer as far as i can tell. Let me worry about that. Get me the part number.

Originally posted by H8monday
Why are the Ford King Pin outers more prone to breakage than the Chevy Kingpin outers, ?

the ford is thinner in the area where this chevy broke.

fyi. this is billybobs chevy knuckle that broke at carnage for the con.

jeff you better just get some welderboy knuckles cause i know how you drive. :flipoff2:

We only use kingpin style, because of the strength, the custom knuckles are finished using a bearing top and bottom feel free to check them out if you want.
Lance Gilbert
www.SunrayEngineering.com

Originally posted by camo



jeff you better just get some welderboy knuckles cause i know how you drive. :flipoff2:


Im all about finess,..what are you talkin about:D

Well maybe now that you have me considering NOS, so that my lil engine can keep up, you might have a point. :eek:

There is no Dana # listed for the Knuckle....it says to see the manufacturer (Ford) I have a few old Ford parts books...Ill look for a # tomorrow to see if I come up with anything.

Originally posted by TJ Fan
There is no Dana # listed for the Knuckle....it says to see the manufacturer (Ford) I have a few old Ford parts books...Ill look for a # tomorrow to see if I come up with anything.

cool. post a number if ya find one.

Originally posted by Mr.N
Let me worry about that. Get me the part number.

I tried that a while back... it's gotta be a Dana thing, not a Big Three thing. Dug through the GM dealer stuff and couldn't come up with anything on the inner "C" at all. I can wire-wheel one down to see if it's got any kind of numbering on it, but I don't remember seeing any.

I'm already working on cutting up (cringing at taking a bandsaw to it, but it's gotta be done for the sake of progress) an inner "C" for material and strength analysis. Whatever is used for the new ones, will be at least as strong as stock, if not stronger (probably stronger). Same goes for the outers.

Oh, just an FYI... TJFan... old Ford books may have something we can all use in them... but it'll probably be information only at best. Ford does not support anything over 10 years old with continued parts availability. So unless somebody here knows a workaround for that little dealership gotcha, like, say, working at Ford (or Dana)... the Ford dealerships around the country are (unfortunately) more likely to tell you that you need to trade in your old truck and buy a current one, than sell you parts for the old stock crossreference. :(

Scott,
Actually its 7 years for parts support depending on production. My dad and I have been putting together a 68 Mustang GT 428CJ car for a looong while. The guys at the counter have run the #'s on NOS parts through the whole system (every dealer). They then give us a printout of who has what on their shelf. Second: A Dana plant is in Toledo and I have a few customers that work for them...so I am going to make some calls and see if I can scare anything up possibly. Do you think there is serious interest in the knucles and the c's?? I can have them forged overseas....which would bring down costs. thoughts?

Larry

Originally posted by TJ Fan
Actually its 7 years for parts support depending on production. My dad and I have been putting together a 68 Mustang GT 428CJ car for a looong while. The guys at the counter have run the #'s on NOS parts through the whole system (every dealer). They then give us a printout of who has what on their shelf. Second: A Dana plant is in Toledo and I have a few customers that work for them...so I am going to make some calls and see if I can scare anything up possibly. Do you think there is serious interest in the knucles and the c's?? I can have them forged overseas....which would bring down costs. thoughts?


I stand corrected... in the direction I didn't want to hear. :(

I think there's interest in the knuckles and C's, but I don't know at what actual volume. The pattern guy that I'm working with, has a lot of overseas contacts in foundries and forge shops too, but unless we can get the parts direct from Dana in a reliable supply, I don't want to rely on something that I can't expect to happen. Problem there is, Dana probably wants million-dollar-plus annual commitments to make parts (can't blame 'em) and that's too big a supply for the demand I see. :(

Whtih how many people there is on this board, not one works at dana?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.N
[B]

CAMO or anyone,

Do you have the part number for the inner King Pin knuckle?



Here they are, i tryed this 2 years ago and got nothing, you can try it.
[/list=1] dana 60 end fork F 37988[list]
ford knuckle '85 to '91 R.H. 43318
frod knuckle '85 to '91 L.H. 43319
chevy knuckle '77 to '91 R.H. 41893
chevy knuckle '77 to '91 L.H. 41894
dodge knuckle '78 to '93 R.H. 37290
dodge knuckle '78 to '93 L.H. 37291
these are casting P.N.# and should cross over
steve differential eng. inc.

Originally posted by GearMan
Billybobs Quigly 4x4 van from ford is a 2000 and it has a king pin 60 in it and it was all new so i feel those parts are out there just nobody has stumbled into someone who has a job where these parts are obtained.if thats the case then that only proves my thoughts that most of the big houses use ball joint crap for profit reasons and not the "we cant get those parts new any more reasons"the inner "C"would be better made from a hammer forgeing then a cast one i would think

this is 5th hand info,, but if u know someone who has a quigly 4x4 van and it has new kingpins it is because quigly believe it or not is one of the few companies that can buy center sections and i am assuming king pins knuckles i forget the word that was used to described what was needed to buy these parts,(thinkin it was like being bonded or something like that) this may be false but go try and buy a new dana center section from them?? the quigly fellas were at new rock with all kinds of d44 stuff knuckles brand new,, i dont remember if there van was king pin or not,, it had some large funky front axle they called it a m20..

Originally posted by steve gerstner
Here they are, i tryed this 2 years ago and got nothing, you can try it.
dana 60 end fork F 37988
ford knuckle '85 to '91 R.H. 43318
ford knuckle '85 to '91 L.H. 43319
chevy knuckle '77 to '91 R.H. 41893
chevy knuckle '77 to '91 L.H. 41894
dodge knuckle '78 to '93 R.H. 37290
dodge knuckle '78 to '93 L.H. 37291
these are casting P.N.# and should cross over
steve differential eng. inc. [/B]Thanks Steve, I didn't find any of these numbers in my books.

Originally posted by OTTERGONEJPN


this is 5th hand info,, but if u know someone who has a quigly 4x4 van and it has new kingpins it is because quigly believe it or not is one of the few companies that can buy center sections and i am assuming king pins knuckles i forget the word that was used to described what was needed to buy these parts,(thinkin it was like being bonded or something like that) this may be false but go try and buy a new dana center section from them?? the quigly fellas were at new rock with all kinds of d44 stuff knuckles brand new,, i dont remember if there van was king pin or not,, it had some large funky front axle they called it a m20..

i can get center sections from ford with no problem, didnt try or price a king pin knuckle though

Originally posted by badassjeepguy


i can get center sections from ford with no problem, didnt try or price a king pin knuckle though

just the center section without the tubes??

and u can prolly for arm and leg get new kingpin knuckle from Gm??

but to get any kinda of good price u would have to buy from dana in a large quanity and they wont sell to just anyone even if u have a pile of money,, i guess that is what i am getting at, and even then it is second hand b/s at best...:emb4:

Camo & Scott:

Have some info. I got the part numbers for the Ford knucles including the updated numbers. They are all defunct up to 91 vehicles with kingpins. I have a print out of all the remaining knuckles in the country in computerized inventory. There are not a lot, so few, it is not worth mentioning. The cost of one is 452.00.
I have a call in to an associate for info from DANA. We can work around this but what is everyone willing to pay for knuckles and c's...If we have them built......that is my question????????????

Originally posted by 66CJdean
I have a kingpin 60 and will be going to a ball joint 60 one the time around. There is the durability of the "C" on the king pin 60 if you bust a u-joint that is far better and the mounting of the hysteer arm is nice. But the kingpin " and knuckle is sloppy are best, a mess, but most of all it uses up the best places to mount the shocks. With a kingpin 60 it will move around some because it only held ther by a spring so it does move some and F!ck up the shocks I do have mounted near it and over steer the u-joints. So I am going with a ball joint 60 so that the steering is on a fixed plane and when the knuckle hits the steering stops it STOPS. The hysteer part is not a big deal to me but could be to others that don't own a mill. So in short I own a kingpin 60 and would rather have a balljoint 60.

Dean -

How far do you find the knuckle to move? Or, how far would you mount the shock away from the kingpin cap assembly? Thanks.

Originally posted by lanzg
We only use kingpin style, because of the strength, the custom knuckles are finished using a bearing top and bottom feel free to check them out if you want.
Lance Gilbert
www.SunrayEngineering.com

Do you sell the bearing kit for the top to replace the UHMW polyethylene piece? Does this top spring assembly take some of the shock under load and less likely to snap the outer knuckle or would the assembly as a hole be stronger with a bearing top and bottom? Thanks.

I have been told that Quigly is running off of a really old stock of parts. Like way back when, they bought a sh!t load of front end components, and are still using them up. That sounds like it makes a lot of sense to me. If they had to buy so much stuff to buy direct from Dana, at the rate they produce vans, they are probably still working through old stock.
I have a Quigly sitting at the shop with a K-pin 60 front end. This will be my new front end. One interesting note is the tie rod is on the top of the steering arms, OEM (not that I care with High steer coming).

Originally posted by TJ Fan
There are not a lot, so few, it is not worth mentioning. The cost of one is 452.00.
I have a call in to an associate for info from DANA. We can work around this but what is everyone willing to pay for knuckles and c's...If we have them built......that is my question????????????

Currie gets around $1400 a pair for outers with unit bearing hubs. No stubs, no lockouts, no brakes, just outer knuckles and unit bearings. Inner C's (balljoint only) are $100 each. By the time you put brakes on it, you're into potentially as much as $2k for the pair of knuckles (with inners and brakes) and they're selling 'em pretty regularly.

I'm looking at having the new stuff made, like I mentioned... I think I can get it done for around the same or maybe a little less money than what Currie's getting for the balljoint stuff, but using kingpin stuff, customer's choice of 5x5.5, 6x5.5, or 8x6.5 hubs, real wheel bearings, ready to accept 35 spline stubs, etc. Not sure on the pricing yet--like I mentioned, I'll be surprised to see finished parts before Easter.

FWIW, estimating on the high side, but basing it on a volume of parts, if I had the outer cast out of 4140, locally, and had the machine work done locally, (Denver area is way overpriced on machine work :( ) I could probably get brand-new Chevy style outer knuckles, for around $5-700 each. That, IMHO, eats the Ford (and OEM Chevy) stuff alive. Yes, I did say 4140... I've already got cast 4140 D44 diff covers from the same guys I'm working with on this project, and they've already done D30 and are working on D60 diff covers... same stuff. Scarier is that for the pattern guy... 4140 is boring material. He's used to stuff like vacuum-cast Ti, Alloy 20 (a proprietary acid-resistant material), and other weird stuff. Don't want to get too exotic on these, or it'll drive the price up unnecessarily.

scott

not sure what the world will pay for the outer "cast" knuckle but 500- to 700 seems steep only because i can get a welderboy fabricated outer with upper bearing instead of bushing and high steer arms with bigger bolts and cone washers for 750 each.

just a benchmark for ya.

fabricated knuckle from welder boy

other side.

i have heard wagoneer machine also makes a cast unit that is about the same price. sunray also builds a knuckle.

the part nobody makes is the "C"

in case you have not followed the camo 6o thread

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95003&perpage=50&pagenumber=10 thread


here is the king pin upper bearing.

:D

Wagonner makes a welded part similar to Welderboy's. They don't make the inner "C".

I agree that $500-700 is too steep, and I'm wanting to keep it well under that... that was based on very expensive material and overly expensive machine work.

The Welderboy and/or WMS knuckles still rely on some OEM Dana knuckle parts too, though, don't they?

In looking back at the Welderboy knuckle, I stand corrected, it's all fabricated plate.

Still no inner C--that's still the sticking point. That's what I'm going after harder than the outer, to tell the truth.

i can't speak for wagoneer cause i have never seen them. welderboys are 100% fabbed in his shop. no oem parts.

Hey, Camo... is that weld that I see on the upper side of the lower fork of the "C" on that axle? What's up with that? Am I just smokin' crack?

welder boy makes a guesset kit.

the lower bearing is protected from exlpoding axle parts by a thick metal disc welded in place of the stock thin bearing cap.

the differences between WB and Wagner Machines knuckle's are as follows:

WB's $1500
key feature: replaces top plastic bushing with a new bearing.

Wagner machine $1500
Key feature: Comes with their 15" brake kit which allows you to run 15" wheels with around 4" bs.

Normally their brake kit costs $550 all on it's own.

Doesnt' Sunray make custom bent plate inner "c" for thier 1550 axle?

got a link to wagoneer ?

Originally posted by Sundowner
Doesnt' Sunray make custom bent plate inner "c" for thier 1550 axle?

yes

come awn fawkers. post pics of all these parts.

i wanna see sunrays "c" a good pic of their knuckle

and wagoneers stuff

come awn fawkers. post pics of all these parts.
i wanna see sunrays "c" a good pic of their knuckle


wasn't there a HUGE thread all about Sunray's 1550 incl. the inner knuckels. I guess one could search for it.....:D

Originally posted by camo
come awn fawkers. post pics of all these parts.

i wanna see sunrays "c" a good pic of their knuckle

and wagoneers stuff

http://www.sunrayengineering.com/1550.html

http://www.sunrayengineering.com/images/1550-29sm.jpg

http://www.sunrayengineering.com/images/1550-6sm.jpg

http://www.sunrayengineering.com/images/1550-1-2sm.jpg

http://www.wagonermachine.com/knucklepage.htm

http://www.wagonermachine.com/knuckle1.jpg

http://www.wagonermachine.com/knuckle2.jpg