I have nearly finished a long 5 year project of putting 404 axles under a YJ. Problem now is for the life of me, I can't get a good brake pedal. I am using the stock drum brakes and have no intentions to go to disc. My 62' Unimog has no problems stopping with the drums, so neither should my YJ. Anyways, what is everyone running as far as master cylinders? I have adjusted the brakes and bleed them repeatedly. I plan on running residual pressure valves but haven't yet.

I run stock 404 steer axles under my yota and had the same issue with using the FJ80 master cylinder, i have since up graded to an 11/4in master cylinder of a holden commodre.. (your GM GTS) i found anthing under this side i had no brake pedal

I've had a few different setups using the 404 drums. They can be amazing brakes or they can be terrible depending on a few factors.

Currently running a 7/8" CNC manual MC and brakes are "throw you through the windscreen" good.

There's a few things to watch for:

1> you need residual pressure valves in line. The cups in the wheel cylinders are terrible for letting air past when the car/truck/buggy is vertical and the fluid tries to drain back to the MC.

2> The wheel cylinders need to be in excellent shape if you are going to have a good pedal.
If in doubt have them sleeved.
I had stainless sleeves and new cups installed a while back while I had the brake plumbing apart adding a cutting brake lever and the difference is night/day.

3> The drums need to be indexed to the hub in the orientation they have been run long term.
If you have them off and re-install them 60°, 120° or 180° out they can have quite a bit of runout.
You then have to adjust the shoes for more clearance and you end up using a heap of pedal stroke just to get the shoes to meet the drum.

4> Stock mogs have 1/4" lines. If your car has the more common 3/16" lines bleeding can be a bitch as they don't seem to quite move enough fluid to push the last bit of air out of the wheel cylinders.
This is what has worked best for me over the years;
Gravity bleed until there is fluid running out at all 4 corners the close up the bleed screws.
Then vacuum bleed one corner at a time with the other 3 corners clamped off. When one corner is bled swap the clamp to that one and bleed the unclamped one.
If you don't keep the three you aren't working on clamped off, that tiny bit of air in the top of the cylinders seems to keep getting drawn back up into the plumbing.

Hope this helps you some. It's just what I have found to work over about 7 years of running these brakes. They are fantastic brakes once all the little quirks listed above are dealt with.

EDIT: Almost forgot, front cylinders are 1 5/8" and rears are 1 1/8" If you are running a complete front axle in the rear you'll need an MC closer to the size Macarthur above is running.
I have rear steer but am still running the smaller rear brake components.

I've had a few different setups using the 404 drums. They can be amazing brakes or they can be terrible depending on a few factors.

Currently running a 7/8" CNC manual MC and brakes are "throw you through the windscreen" good.

There's a few things to watch for:

1> you need residual pressure valves in line. The cups in the wheel cylinders are terrible for letting air past when the car/truck/buggy is vertical and the fluid tries to drain back to the MC.

2> The wheel cylinders need to be in excellent shape if you are going to have a good pedal.
If in doubt have them sleeved.
I had stainless sleeves and new cups installed a while back while I had the brake plumbing apart adding a cutting brake lever and the difference is night/day.

3> The drums need to be indexed to the hub in the orientation they have been run long term.
If you have them off and re-install them 60°, 120° or 180° out they can have quite a bit of runout.
You then have to adjust the shoes for more clearance and you end up using a heap of pedal stroke just to get the shoes to meet the drum.

4> Stock mogs have 1/4" lines. If your car has the more common 3/16" lines bleeding can be a bitch as they don't seem to quite move enough fluid to push the last bit of air out of the wheel cylinders.
This is what has worked best for me over the years;
Gravity bleed until there is fluid running out at all 4 corners the close up the bleed screws.
Then vacuum bleed one corner at a time with the other 3 corners clamped off. When one corner is bled swap the clamp to that one and bleed the unclamped one.
If you don't keep the three you aren't working on clamped off, that tiny bit of air in the top of the cylinders seems to keep getting drawn back up into the plumbing.

Hope this helps you some. It's just what I have found to work over about 7 years of running these brakes. They are fantastic brakes once all the little quirks listed above are dealt with.

EDIT: Almost forgot, front cylinders are 1 5/8" and rears are 1 1/8" If you are running a complete front axle in the rear you'll need an MC closer to the size Macarthur above is running.
I have rear steer but am still running the smaller rear brake components.

I'm running a stock Jeep MC which I believe is 1" Bore. I'm not running rear steer, just a normal front and rear setup. The axles were still in the factory crates as rebuilds from over seas with all new brake components. So I'm *thinking the wheel cylinders are OK. At least there not leaking. So I'll get the 10lb residual valves in first then give your bleeding method a try.

Have tight do you run the shoes to the drums? You can clearly feel a difference the closer and tighter (and more drag) the shoes are adjusted. But you can easily create too much drag there.

I'm running the stock explorer master on mine,with the bigger cylinders in my rear steer axle.Also running residual valves. I find that they work awsome as long as I keep them adjusted quite tight,to the point that I can usually leave the truck in neutral and it acts as an auto parking brake!:eek: I pretty much have to adjust them every time I take it out. It is a trailer only truck though,so I don't really have to worry about them over heating on me.If I have a long run to the trails,I can just adjust them once I get there,as they work well enough for logging road running,but they don't feel so good once sitting verticle.:D

Have tight do you run the shoes to the drums? You can clearly feel a difference the closer and tighter (and more drag) the shoes are adjusted. But you can easily create too much drag there.

To get the lines bled, I jam the shoes pretty hard up against the drums. That way you can feel when all the air is out. There is basically no pedal movement.

Once they're bled I back them off a touch. Usually so they just drag ever so slightly.

To get the lines bled, I jam the shoes pretty hard up against the drums. That way you can feel when all the air is out. There is basically no pedal movement.

Once they're bled I back them off a touch. Usually so they just drag ever so slightly.

Makes sense. I have the residual valves ready to go in. Do you think the stock combination valve will mess with things? I believe it meters the amount of pressure to the rear brakes. I'm wondering if this is still a good idea to have? Maybe just add the 10lb residual valves right where both lines come out of the master. Any thoughts?

3> The drums need to be indexed to the hub in the orientation they have been run long term.
If you have them off and re-install them 60°, 120° or 180° out they can have quite a bit of runout.
You then have to adjust the shoes for more clearance and you end up using a heap of pedal stroke just to get the shoes to meet the drum.


How do you know what the long term orientation is?
working on mine now

Makes sense. I have the residual valves ready to go in. Do you think the stock combination valve will mess with things? I believe it meters the amount of pressure to the rear brakes. I'm wondering if this is still a good idea to have? Maybe just add the 10lb residual valves right where both lines come out of the master. Any thoughts?

I've never run the combination valve thingy, but as long as the residual valve is upstream of it, it shouldn't matter.
Same as having a cutting brake inline. The residual valve means there is always a minimum of 10lb on both sides of it.

How do you know what the long term orientation is?
working on mine now

Most responsible owners (unlike me :) ) run them with the 2 little screws holding the drum to the hub, so that narrows it down to 2 possible positions. You can then usually tell which way as there will be a few witness marks shared between the faces of the hub and the drum.