My Question: Generally speaking how would a small SUV with modest tires (say an XJ with 31s) compare with a large SUV with moderate to larger tires (say a K5 with 35s) for use as a family adventure vehicle on week long tours of North American rocky dessert and mountainous forest (with several hundred miles of pavement on the way there).

Background Information: I’m planning to build an adventure vehicle for my family (wife and two young boys). Although this will most commonly be used for short camping trips on light trails, I would very much like for us to also do week long excursions on moderate or even somewhat more difficult trails. I do not expect to tow anything much… maybe some sort of adventure pop-up trailer at some point, if that.

Terrain will primarily be rocky, high elevation deserts but will occasionally include wet, mountainous forest too. The desert terrain has some large rocks and ruts to contend with (but we’re not talking rock crawling here) and stream crossings are sometimes an issue (not because of deep water, but because entering and exiting the crossing usually results in a steep descent and ascent that can frustrate longer rigs. The main hazards on the forest trails are sporadic mud, tight corners and the occasional downed tree (which may not be easy to go around). I will need to drive hundreds of miles of highway driving to get where I’m going, so road worthiness on pavement is a material factor.

At first it seemed pretty simple. Pick my foundational tire size and choose a reasonably cost-effective rig around that. If I’m good with 31s, go with an XJ or SJ. A mostly stock Ramcharger might be cost-effective with 33s and a K5 has great build potential for 35s and higher [These are just for example's sake].

But how to pick the tire size in the first place? My initial attraction was to go with an old school two-door SUV with 33s or 35s, yet I know plenty of guys go all over the place in smaller rigs with much smaller tires. The more I researched, the more I realized that smaller rigs with moderate tires can be pretty darn trail worthy and I’ve started leaning in that direction. Heck, maybe a vehicle with excellent trail dimensions and 31” tires might end up being more trail worthy then a behemoth on 35”s, depending on the terrain. So I’m having tough time choosing between a XJ Cherokee, Wagoneer, Ramcharger and K5 Blazer/Jimmy. I haven’t completely written off Discos, Land Cruisers and 4Runners either, though they seem to be a bit out of my budget.

I’m not so much looking for specific advise on a particular vehicle, but rather I am looking for help in sorting out the various characteristics of an off road vehicle; approach angle, departure angle, break-over, minimum ground clearance, wheelbase and track-width. I started out really focused on ground clearance, but I'm starting to get that approach and departure angles are pretty important, maybe more important. I realize this is probably more art than science, but perhaps there are some rules of thumb for me to consider?

I’ve spent about 4 months trolling for vehicles on craigslist and reading through posts on Pirate, Ramcharger Central, CK5, S10Extremist, etc. I’ve also read the Four-Wheeler’s Bible and started picking up some of the popular off-road mags. But I’ve had trouble learning how to answer the small vs. big debate when it comes to vehicles.

Sooo, a smaller SUV with modest tires vs. full-sized SUV with moderate to large sized tires… what say you?

Thanks in advance for your kind assistance.

[Sometimes I wonder if a widetrack SJ Cherokee Cheif with 33"s would be the sweet spot right in the middle of the debate?]

been reading the posts here and have decided that i'm going small for sure. but, i will be pulling a small trailer. my build this coming summer:
1966 CJ5A, stock 134 F head, 4.27 d44 rear/d27 front, new locking hubs, three on the tree tranny with a Saturn OD, and new 30/9.50x15 tires on stock steel wheels.
the overdrive is for going down the backside of the rockies!
mods:
reupholster the front seats
fill all the old holes drilled in it by po's
fresh undercoating, paint, por15 the interior
aux gas tank in the back, approx. 20 gallons or so
build cover over the aux tank for the dog to lay on
Detroit locker for the rear d44
just got a hard top and doors that need rustproofing and painting
upgrade the 55 amp alternator, hope to get one closer to 90-100 amps
driving, fog, and off road lights
solar panel and aux deep cycle battery
assorted radios (cb, am-fm, satellite, etc.) and speakers
recovery tools, jack, a few critical spares

and that's about it. it runs darn good and should be fun doing some long trips with it.
the trailer is well matched being small (4x5), same size tires and track as the jeep. it will be carrying the tent, sleeping gear, cooler, cook stove, etc. best of all, it will weigh less than 500# gross and shouldn't be any problem for my little jeep.

in your case, with family, my expedition solution would not work for you. that being said, i prefer to go the tag-along trailer route as it is easier on my vehicle (and most others as well) to pull a light trailer than to try and pack everything into just one suv/truck/etc. and you really don't want 500# hanging off your rear in one of those hitch carriers. and having a 3x4x2 ft high bag on your roof isn't going to help gas mileage any either.
just take your time and try to think things through before you decide on the one best vehicle for your needs. it's much more than tires size really.

and besides, as i've discovered over the past several decades...
it's not so much what you drive as how you drive that makes the most difference.

good luck with your project and have lots of fun with it for sure!

Considering the axles in most of the Blazers, I think I'd take a Ramcharger for 35s over a K5, but that's just me.

As for the original question, I have to ask, why is the size of the vehicle important? All the vehicles you mention have straight axles so no matter if you put 33s on an XJ or a full size SUV, you are going to have very similar ground clearance. So with that in mind, I'd take a full size SUV on 35s, since that would have better ground clearance. Naturally you will have to deal with the gearing as many '70s and '80s have modest gearing that only gets worse as the tire size increases. All other considerations aside, I prefer a full size rig over smaller vehicles. Anything you choose will have it's advantages and disadvantages so it's up to you to pick what will work best for what you have planned.

Strvger: Sounds like a nice project you got going on there and I agree that how you drive it is probably as important, if not more important, that what you are driving. Thanks for the encouragement.

Elwenil: Thanks a lot for your help. I totally agree that D44/Chrysler 9.25 are stronger than a pair of GM 10-Bolts any day of the week. My thinking was that even 33s and a locker might be pushing it on a stock axle K5, whereas the Ramcharger could handle that set up just fine. But I'd probably want to swap stronger axles in either rig were I going with 35s and a locker or larger... in which case I'd probably go K5 due to better parts availability and lower cost when tackling the issues caused by bigger tires and higher lifts. But that’s just my opinion and I respect those that disagree and certainly there are plenty of nice built-up RCs out there. If seen some of your posts at Ramchargercentral and Pirate so, if I remember correctly, you’re a Dodge guy and not a big Chevy fan, which I respect.

With respect to why size matters… I agree that ground clearance is ground clearance, regardless of rig size. However my perception (which may not be true) is that a lot of the smaller SUVs have better approach/departure angles than the full size rigs in stock form, not to mention they can fit in smaller places and are much lighter. On the other hand, the full-sized rigs are usually cheaper to lift, have more fender space and stronger axles for big tires, more room for gear and are more stable after lifting. So what I’m really trying to get at is:

1) What’s the balance of importance between ground clearance and approach/departure angles for my purpose?

2) What’s the balance of importance between the stability of a larger, wider vehicle vs. the better stock break-over angles and convenient tight-spot-fitting-into-ness some shorter and smaller vehicles tend to have?

Is there a rule of thumb ratio of height to width that I should aim to maintain? I can imagine that maybe there are some golden rules around the ideal ratios/relationships between these variables one might pursue when building a vehicle. Or maybe I’m thinking way too much about this. :shaking:

Both sizes of vehicle will be equally as 'wheelable' anywhere you want to drag the family.... which brings me to point 2:

If your bringing the wife/kids and supplies, go for the fullsize to make it remotely comfortable for everyone involved.

Be aware that you may actually find a Ramcharger or Trailduster with a 8 1/4" rear axle. They are rare but they are out there. 90% of them have the usual 9 1/4" rear and while I personally hate that axle due to it's pinion crush sleeve issues, it is pretty strong for a 1/2 ton axle.

Also note that in addition to lifts being cheaper for full size rigs with leaf springs, 1 ton axles are a bolt in deal also. The approach and departure angles can be helped a little by trimming useless sheetmetal and better bumper design. Just about all the SUVs have a lot of overhang in the rear with 1/2 panels that hang low that can easily be trimmed up to the level of the frame for clearance. It;s just going to get ripped up eventually anyway.

With a smaller vehicle, there is no denying that they are more nimble and fit in tight spaces easier. Another advantage is most don't have a football field sized hood that pretty much obscures everything when the nose is pointed up.

As far as the balance of all those features on various vehicles, that's up to you. Where you plan to go, what you plan to do there, the terrain, the length of the trips, how anal you are about what the term "bare essentials" means and a million other factors will effect what fits your intended use best. It would be impossible for us to suggest anything with any degree of certainty. All we can do is make random suggestions based on our experience and our personal preferences. Personally I love my Ramcharger. I've always loved them and I know '72-'93 Dodge trucks like the back of my hand. It has many faults and it's no nimble rock crawler but it does what I need to do and what is beyond it's ability, I avoid and go around or winch it. A million people will tell you why they feel a fullsize is a bad idea for wheeling but if you need to balance cargo capacity with interior comfort, a fullsize does have it's advantages.

I think you are approaching the problem from the wrong end. I would pick a vehicle that fits your needs space wise and then pick a tire size around that vehicle.

Two people and two kids in an XJ does not leave much room for gear unless you load the roof down or tow an off road trailer.

My personal choice would be a 60 or 80 series toyota. 80 series in newer and better ride but typically more expensive to fix.

You won't need 35" tires for 99% of the terrain it sounds like you will be tackling.

If your not going to pull a trailer, full size is a lot easier to deal with. We have an xj and one kid. It's pretty cramped if we just need a cooler and some baby stuff.

Go full size if you have a couple kids and are not rock crawling. Personally, if I was to go full size for an expo rig, I would buy a tahoe, but that's just me.

Fullsize all the way. Especially if getting to and from your adventure destinations involve a lot of seat time on asphault. I have driven a 90 cherokee quite a bit with my wife and three kids when they were little and it was cramped. No way it would work now that they are teenagers.

Awsome thread, and great questions!
First let me say I currently drive a Xj 4 door 5 speed on 31's with a 3" lift. Its great, small, lightweight, reliable, upgradeable beyond belief!
Umm space wise, I have me my fiance, our pitbull and our daughter. I think theres a decent mount of space, even loaded up for a weekend trip.
Personally the jeep is cheap to build, 3" of lift cost nothing but a simple lift kit. 3" & 31's with a locker will go virtually anywhere you point it! They get decent mileage and last forever, parts are everywhere.
I swapped in auto axles, 3.55 gears vs my stock 3.07s. Gearing is slightly better than stock and I'm getting about 18mpg in town and 23-24 highway. I expect it to go down when I add my roof rack slightly.

I would choose the xj! Cheaper all in all, and capable. A roof rack and smart packing will go a long way if your concerned about space.
To give you an idea of what I've done.

Pieced together 3" lift so I got the best of the best.
auto 3.55 axles with a front Spartan locker. Upgrade from a d35 to a 29spline c8.25,
31" all terrains
small, low pro roof rack.
V8 Zj steering
I had to replace the missing stock tire carrier which cost 28 bucks at the junkyard.
Small storage rack in the back, 6" deep, for minor small stuff.

The most expensive part on my jeep is 578 bucks for adjustable upper & lower control arms lol. Spent about 200 on the lift + the 578 for arms. 700 for tires and rims, 40 for the steering upgrade, 350 for axles, 230 for locker, 30 for tire carrier.
If your thinking of an XJ I can give you advice/ideas on storage lol. For instance the 2 rear quarters, you can cut/trim the plastic and use those huge empty quarter panels for storage, I carry my extra oil/brake fluid ect in these compartments.

Awsome thread, and great questions!
First let me say I currently drive a Xj 4 door 5 speed on 31's with a 3" lift. Its great, small, lightweight, reliable, upgradeable beyond belief!
Umm space wise, I have me my fiance, our pitbull and our daughter. I think theres a decent mount of space, even loaded up for a weekend trip.
Personally the jeep is cheap to build, 3" of lift cost nothing but a simple lift kit. 3" & 31's with a locker will go virtually anywhere you point it! They get decent mileage and last forever, parts are everywhere.
I swapped in auto axles, 3.55 gears vs my stock 3.07s. Gearing is slightly better than stock and I'm getting about 18mpg in town and 23-24 highway. I expect it to go down when I add my roof rack slightly.

I would choose the xj! Cheaper all in all, and capable. A roof rack and smart packing will go a long way if your concerned about space.
To give you an idea of what I've done.

Pieced together 3" lift so I got the best of the best.
auto 3.55 axles with a front Spartan locker. Upgrade from a d35 to a 29spline c8.25,
31" all terrains
small, low pro roof rack.
V8 Zj steering
I had to replace the missing stock tire carrier which cost 28 bucks at the junkyard.
Small storage rack in the back, 6" deep, for minor small stuff.

The most expensive part on my jeep is 578 bucks for adjustable upper & lower control arms lol. Spent about 200 on the lift + the 578 for arms. 700 for tires and rims, 40 for the steering upgrade, 350 for axles, 230 for locker, 30 for tire carrier.
If your thinking of an XJ I can give you advice/ideas on storage lol. For instance the 2 rear quarters, you can cut/trim the plastic and use those huge empty quarter panels for storage, I carry my extra oil/brake fluid ect in these compartments.

It's funny, we have the EXACT same setup family and all (cept I have a rottie dog), I say mine is two little you say yours is fine.

I will add this. It is comfortable for my family only because we pull an offroad trailer with all our stuff in it. If you are just going on day trips an xj is fine. If you are going camping and exploring without a trailer, I think you'll wish you had a full size.

That being said. I am currently building an LJ which probably has less room, but again I pull a trailer.

If you really think that you can do it and keep it small, I would try the XJ.
Short aftermarket lowers, little lift, Sawzall, Drum 8.8 probably good to 32s.
Gear the front to match the rear 3.55s 3.73 ect.
I have similar thoughts regarding the older grand cherocars. either way you have the much maligned D35 or D44A to deal with. And the unibody. Youre not going to be hardcore boulder bashing, so thats not as big of a deal.
If its too small, you can probably sell it for not too much of a loss.

If you need bigger the Tahoe seems to be a decent choice. My dad and I did a lot of Maine 'backcounty' trips as a kid in a 2.9L BroncoII. I think a CJ7 has as much room.

I like the Fj80 on merit, But I havent spent much time around them.

I recently moved from an XJ with 2" on 30s to a full size diesel Dodge, and I couldn't be happier with the move. XJs are good little rigs, but lift 'em and load 'em up and they just inhale gasoline. Out exploring, we quite often would pass the "point of no return" in terms of fuel capacity on back roads, which always makes me nervous going somewhere new. Even with a jerry can or two, the range on them is really limited.

We never felt like we had enough room either. For my girlfriend and I, we could cram everything we needed for a week into the back, but if we had to use the rear seat for passengers, forget about it. If you go XJ, you might have to consider a trailer like the gentleman above.

After the XJ died an ignoble death, I upgraded to a first-gen Cummins Dodge, and I could not be happier with it. It's a little rougher to ride in, but it's got fewer electronics than the XJ and gets better fuel economy to boot. We'll throw a camper shell on it this year and never have to fuss with a tent again. The downside with it, however, is that it's far less nimble on the tight forested trails we have in the PNW. Since my girlfriend and I spend most of our time exploring east of the Cascades, this isn't an issue at all to us, but being that you're from Seattle, it's worth considering.

XJs are good little rigs, but lift 'em and load 'em up and they just inhale gasoline. Out exploring, we quite often would pass the "point of no return" in terms of fuel capacity on back roads, which always makes me nervous going somewhere new. Even with a jerry can or two, the range on them is really limited.



I do have to agree here, range is limited! I have don that Gojeep mod to the gas tank so I can carry an extra 5gallons. And I always carry to 5 gallon jerry cans.
Space wise, I have a small 6" storage self in the rear, and as said I cut out my rear 1/4 panel plastics. I got my Idea from "clifford" the big red expo rig.
I will say I wish I had more space which is why I bought roof rack. Not that its cramped at all, but you do have to organize stuff to make it all fit.
I use my 1/4 panel compartment, under the rear seat for oil. brake fluid, tow strap, ect. Everything else is stuff in the rear with my spare 31..

I also only go on 3 day trips tops! Usually smaller fishing trips so thats probably why it doesn't feel as cramped to me, vs your guys that for a week or so. I would have a tough time trying to get a weeks worth of stuff in my jeep! XJ's can be tough and tight on longer trips I agree. For me its kind of perfect for the daily driver/weekend camper.
Can't wait from my roof rack and stock tire carrier so I can toss my spare on it and tent and everything small up top.


2 adults, 2 growing boys and longer than 2 weekend, I'd have to say fullsize:)

Awsome thread, and great questions!
First let me say I currently drive a Xj 4 door 5 speed on 31's with a 3" lift. Its great, small, lightweight, reliable, upgradeable beyond belief!
Umm space wise, I have me my fiance, our pitbull and our daughter. I think theres a decent mount of space, even loaded up for a weekend trip.
Personally the jeep is cheap to build, 3" of lift cost nothing but a simple lift kit. 3" & 31's with a locker will go virtually anywhere you point it! They get decent mileage and last forever, parts are everywhere.
I swapped in auto axles, 3.55 gears vs my stock 3.07s. Gearing is slightly better than stock and I'm getting about 18mpg in town and 23-24 highway. I expect it to go down when I add my roof rack slightly.

I would choose the xj! Cheaper all in all, and capable. A roof rack and smart packing will go a long way if your concerned about space.
To give you an idea of what I've done.

Pieced together 3" lift so I got the best of the best.
auto 3.55 axles with a front Spartan locker. Upgrade from a d35 to a 29spline c8.25,
31" all terrains
small, low pro roof rack.
V8 Zj steering
I had to replace the missing stock tire carrier which cost 28 bucks at the junkyard.
Small storage rack in the back, 6" deep, for minor small stuff.

The most expensive part on my jeep is 578 bucks for adjustable upper & lower control arms lol. Spent about 200 on the lift + the 578 for arms. 700 for tires and rims, 40 for the steering upgrade, 350 for axles, 230 for locker, 30 for tire carrier.
If your thinking of an XJ I can give you advice/ideas on storage lol. For instance the 2 rear quarters, you can cut/trim the plastic and use those huge empty quarter panels for storage, I carry my extra oil/brake fluid ect in these compartments.

All paid for with stolen money from scamming people off the forums right? dang you forgot to mention that... guess you have the cheapest XJ in reality... since you have never paid for a damn thing... Your going to be hated everywhere you go on the internet... to think your that stupid to keep using the same name? what a dumbass... have fun in hell cause thats where your going... wish i lived close enough to send ya there!

http://www.cherokeeforum.com/f9/kamaran-casual-scammer-do-not-buy-him-114906/index21/

The most expensive part on my jeep is 578 bucks for adjustable upper & lower control arms lol. Spent about 200 on the lift + the 578 for arms. 700 for tires and rims, 40 for the steering upgrade, 350 for axles, 230 for locker, 30 for tire carrier.
If your thinking of an XJ I can give you advice/ideas on storage lol. For instance the 2 rear quarters, you can cut/trim the plastic and use those huge empty quarter panels for storage, I carry my extra oil/brake fluid ect in these compartments.

What control arms are you running?

i have two boys and my wife. I didn't want a full size and i also couldn't live with a cherokee or GC. just not enough room

i was looking for a Disco, but i couldn't find anything. I ended up with a range rover. they are a pretty good compromise. they have pretty decent room, solid axles, V8's and automatics. they are fairly affordable, if you have some mechanical ability they are not very hard to work on.

http://www.cherokeeforum.com/f9/kamaran-casual-scammer-do-not-buy-him-114906/index21/

Ha, just read that. He is out for some pirate money now.

getting away from the Kamaran issue...

Have you thought about the additional drivetrain stress of a trailer? If you go smaller and tow, you'll have larger tires, extra weight in the vehicle and added stress of pulling a trailer through obstacles.

I'd love to go smaller, and eventually I will, but right now I'm using a CCLB k3500 so we can fit everything we need (me, Wife, and 3, sometimes 4 kids). If/when we go smaller, it will be with a trailer.

Don't know who your talking to, but my trailer is 750 unloaded and probably 1000-1050 loaded with a spare and propane. It is running 235/75r15s and has plenty of clearance with them. With that light of a trailer you notice it, but it doesn't jerk the vehicle around much at all.

Don't know who your talking to, but my trailer is 750 unloaded and probably 1000-1050 loaded with a spare and propane. It is running 235/75r15s and has plenty of clearance with them. With that light of a trailer you notice it, but it doesn't jerk the vehicle around much at all.

I'm not just talking about weight, but an additional catch-point on rocks, trees, ledges, etc... that cause more resistance and stress on the drivetrain.

There really isn't that much stress. It's a light trailer. They just roll over stuff. The only time I felt it really pulling on me was when I was trying to get between some trees and it caught and stopped me.

Here is an example. AT Chaser Off-Road Trailer in Moab - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt9Jsb2Hu7g)

Consensus seems to be that a full-sized rig makes the most sense for a family of four if I want to do week long trips. And Chet, I think you’re right… I should figure out space needs and work from there; which puts me back where I started at a full-sized SUV.

Thanks for your feedback everybody, it is very much appreciated.

I wouldn't think twice about the GM 10 bolt. A good 1/2 ton truck axle and every bit the equal of the Dana 44. The Chrysler 9.25 is a definite upgrade but so is the GM 14 bolt semi-floater which is very common in all sorts of 3/4 ton GM trucks throughout the 80s and 90s.
or the 14bolt full floater if you must have the strongest axle for big tires and horrific terrain.

I like the idea of Toyota Land Cruiser sized vehicles though and I'll throw my vote for either an XJ like you suggested or something like a Mitsubishi Montero or Isuzu Trooper or a Land Cruiser if you've got the extra money and don't care about fuel mileage.

Not to sound like a dodge purist, but a "fullsize" ramcharger is a great all around vehicle that isn't too big or small, they are fairly wide though, but that hasn't stopped most people.

Another good one would be a bronco. And before people start bitching at how big it is, put it up next a disco and be amazed..

The attached pic is my RC on bald 33's with a 3" lift sitting next to my lowered 300zx TT for comparison.

Cee-Jay you might check the build out a few posts down. Lance is building a pretty nice C-20 Suburban that seems like it is about what you are looking for. He drives in similar terrain, and does much of what you are talking about. I had a lifted '81 2500 Suburban with 33's back in the early 90's and it was great. We traveled alot with it, pulled a small camper some, and used to haul my racing kart around. I off roaded it some, drove it through some serious snow, and it was awesome. For a large vehicle it did well off road, not a rock crawler by no means, but got around great. Very simple and inexpensive V8 power (350), solid tranny, Dana axles with a LSD and a 40 gal fuel tank. It is easily converted to a diesel like Lance is doing since many came with a diesel. My one drawback was it got about 10 mpg no matter what I had in it, behind it, or how I drove it. A new aftermarket fuel injection, or a JY 5.3 would be a nice upgrade.

Now the problem with any Burb is rust. To find a rust free model like Lance you will have to look at AZ or somewhere similar. If you find one rust free, it won't be long, just the way it is with the older Burbs. So Rhino Lining might be your friend.

Nothing against the other mentioned like Jeep( I own a '94 JGC now), Ramcharger, Land Rover, etc but cheap abundant parts for the Chevy make it a winner for me. Granted you will have to work on, repair on the trail, or somewhere have an issue with whatever you pick, so get something simple and common. Why do people overland in Europe, Asia, South America and everywhere else in Toyota??? because they are very common there and parts a plenty, much like Chevy here. My problem is I live in Indiana, and every Chevy more than 10 years old has rust problems, but my '94 ZJ is pretty much rust free:grinpimp:

Sooo if you ask me the simple answer is early 70's -early 80's 3/4 ton Suburban on 33's. Pretty good storage, simple reliable power, easily upgraded, and millions on the road. I guess you could say large vehicle on moderate tires would be my thoughts...:D
A pic from of my old Burb in my racing days...
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad193/BlaZeJeep/Burb002.jpg

We had a XJ, 1 kid was enough of a space reason to sell it. They are small for family adventure especially if you are going to pile on some hiway miles to get there. What about a ZJ with a the towing package, a little bigger and roomier than the XJ but not full size. We had an Expedition for years after we sold the XJ, just bought a Nissan Xterra and it is for sale, we are looking for another Expedition, that works good for our family of 4.

Thanks BlaZeJeep. One of my good buddies has an ’89 Suburban with 35”s and 14 Bolt in the back. They are great rigs but I think I’d like something with a little shorter wheelbase. But there is no question that if you want to haul a lot gear, then that’s a great choice.

I often think about vans too. I’m not willing to pay the $$$ for late model specialty Ford off-road conversion, but occasionally I see older 4x4 vans for sale. There’s a ’79 GMC Ralley with 33”s and 1 ton axels for sale right now, but it needs an interior and I don’t know if I’m up for that right now. Realistically, I probably won’t find a finished enough van for the price I’m willing to pay. Someday though, perhaps.

Now if I was willing to put in the time and if I had more know how, maybe this is what I would get: 1979 4x4 Chevy Ambulance with a 400 and only 57,000 miles for $1800. :smokin:

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/2821074084.html

This is a good input tread for building an expedition rig. Bought a 1990 BroncoII a few months back (5spd, 4WD, 3.73 gears) and looking to build an expy rig and asmall trailer for added supplies. Since it's only me and no one else I just hope I didn't pick too small of avehicle for this.....:emb4:

This is a good input tread for building an expedition rig. Bought a 1990 BroncoII a few months back (5spd, 4WD, 3.73 gears) and looking to build an expy rig and asmall trailer for added supplies. Since it's only me and no one else I just hope I didn't pick too small of avehicle for this.....:emb4:

yours is a good pick. i have a 1983 ranger short bed 4x4, 5 spd from an '85 b2. my upgrades have been a 2in body lift, 4.56 gears, detroit in back, duraspark conversion, and a 27gal aux gas tank in the bed. my start for an expedition rig.

Rather than pick a rig to go with your tire size, I would recommend picking a rig to suit the trails you want to run and what you are willing to put up with.

I wheel a Ramcharger around Nevada. It's great for everything except where there are lots of trees. Those areas, the trails seem to be Jeep or Toyota wide. A fullsize will fit, but you have to be careful and not afraid of pinstriping, or denting it.

For tight technical trails, the narrow width rigs are the best bet. Get a long one though, because a trailer is a big PITA when things get tight, or they get slick. The last thing you want to do is have to unhook the trailer, then winch it out of a hole because you couldn't pull it out.

As far as MPG goes, my Ramcharger gets 7 wheeling in the snow with a lot of that either idling or full throttle runs to break trail.

It will get 8-9 on mild wheeling runs idling along all day then driving 50 miles each way back home.

On a long trip with the cruise set at 65 it will pull 11 as long as it's mostly flat.

That is with 35" mud pattern radials. With my 15.50 swampers on it you can cut 1 mpg off those numbers.

I've wheeled a lot of places with a lot of different types of rigs, and they all have their drawbacks. With 4 people, one dog, an ice chest and 2 duffle bags, I still have room for tools, spares, water, and enough room to go shopping for groceries or yard sales along the way. Try that in a smaller rig.

I had a Tacoma for awhile. It was nice and it wheeled good, but with more than 2 adults and a dog, it was full. Add 2 kids and life sucked. Same with a CJ jeep, or an FJ-40. A grand cherokee would be the smallest thing I would try to wheel with the family.

Aside from space, there are some things that other people have mentioned that are worth considering.

Fuel capacity is a big one. At 10 mpg, you can cover 350 miles with a 35 gallon tank. That is a long weekend in most places. At 15 mpg with a 20 gallon tank you can cover 300 miles. Not many smaller SUV's have more than a 20 gallon tank. That leaves you with carrying 3 gallons or so, just to get to the same range. As someone who has carried his share of gas all over the west, I can tell you that the gas can that doesn't stink or leak, is a rare animal. Definitely not something you can go to Walmart and buy. They also act as a big magnet for people with sticky fingers.

Drivetrain strength.

On paper a Dana 44 is the same as a 10 bolt give or take a little. In the real world, I've seen more broken 10 bolt differential parts and they have a lot smaller locker selection.

A 14 bolt full floater is indestructible under most street driven rigs, but it also hangs down making clearance a big issue. Yes it can be modified, but it will always hang down farther than a smaller diff axle. The metric 14 bolt is highly under rated by most wheelers. I've seen quite a few abused pretty hard and they didn't break with tires up to 35's on them driven like they were trying to kill it.

Limited slip differentials are something to consider. The Ford Sterling axle is a good axle, but the factory l/s is a trac lok piece of junk. Worthless if you lift a tire off the ground. The Dana 44, 60 and 70 axles can be had with a Power Lok l/s which will be stronger and due to it's design can be almost everything a locker can be, without the crappy handling issues or the clanging and banging. The GM Gov-Lok is another idea that is hit or miss. The newer ones seem to be a little better quality, but they still suffer from some quirks. You couldn't give me a 10 bolt with a Gov-Lok in it. The 14 bolt, even the metric one, isn't too bad, but it takes some getting used to and has to be treated like you can break it if you try. The other Eaton type GM l/s diff's work pretty well and with the carbon fiber clutches and upgraded springs, can be pretty decent in most mild wheeling applications.

Lockers aren't easily available for every axle out there either, so if you are looking for an ARB or E-Locker, choose wisely. The difference can be a couple hundred dollars between a common axle and one that is less common. Spline count is also an issue. In some cases, you have to upgrade shafts to get a locker that you want, which adds considerably to the complexity of a build.

Full floating vs Semi Floating rear axles. I would avoid the 28 spline GM 10 bolt, the Dana 35 or Aluminum Dana 44 like the plague for any wheeling with 35" tires, unless you like changing shafts and fixing things in bad spots. The Ford 8.8 and the regular Dana 44 rears are at the lower end of what I would allow under a heavy rig. A quick look at full size bronco forums will find plenty of 8.8 axles broken when wheeled with 35's. Those are the axles I see have the most problems in the Semi float arena. There could be others, but those are the ones that I see broken the most. I'm sure a lot of it is driver error or installer error, but whatever the issue, those are the ones I see on the side of the trail or road with a c-clip out, or a shaft snapped. I don't think I've ever seen a Ford 9.75, a Chrysler 9.25 or a Metric 14 bolt with an axle hanging out after a c-clip came off or the shaft broke. I'm not counting rock crawling, since you can break a ball bearing in a sandbox with the right person in charge.

Full floaters have their place, but they are heavy, which translates into slower speeds in the rough stuff and a worse ride on washboard roads. True, they are tougher, but they aren't the panacea everyone seems to think they are. It's also true that you can swap them to disc's to lighten the load, but that's more $$$ and you may lose the parking brake. Maintenance is also an issue. With some axles you can access the rear drums without pulling the hub, on others you have to pull the hub to get to the brakes. Not a huge issue, but drums have been know to lose a spring or have the nail pull out of the retainer on washboard roads, especially if they are older and not well maintained.

Engines.

Just about any engine built since 1990 will be fairly reliable in design. All brands have their weak points. The Dodge TBI being a fairly reliable, but utterly gutless P.O.S. in my opinion. GM has a good TBI, but I'd take the Dodge magnum engines or a Ford FI over a TBI any day.

Transmissions.
It's your choice. No auto with more than 100K miles can be counted on to perform without the chance of failure. No clutch with more than 100K miles will perform as new. Stay away from the Ford 1/2 tons with the 5 speed transmissions. Unless it's a swapped in ZF, it will be the Mazda P.O.S that is nothing but a paperweight in my experience. There is no need to have a TH-400 in anything that weighs less than 9K lbs. Up to that weight, the TH350 or the 700R4/ 4L60 will do the job just as well if built with modern components. The Ford E40D is almost as good as the old C-6, but with an overdrive. The Dodge 518/618 transmissions are pretty reliable as well.

O'h yeah, almost forgot in this book I just wrote. I wheel with all kinds of different rigs. The only places the smaller rigs go that I can't, is between trees and rocks. Otherwise, I usually do everything they do, but with more comfort at the expense of gas mileage.