I posted this in general and dog walker suggested I posted it here too, so here it is.
I need some help / ideas about my TBI conversion in my cruiser. First, some stats and history. Rebuilt landcruiser 2F, Clifford 268 cam, SOR 2-piece header, DUI distributor and some mild head work. I was going to do a small 4bbl on an offy manifold (it will be mostly a street truck for the wife, wink, wink), but convinced myself to do EFI after seeing how sweet Spaceghosts 2F runs. I decided to go fuel control only, so there is no VSS, EGR, ESC or any distributor stuff hooked up other than the tach signal off the DUI.
List of parts: sensors (coolant, MAP) off a astro, 1227747 ECM, the TBI came off a 4.3L s10 blazer that DIDN’T have the 1227747 ECM, a bosh 3wire O2 and an external Master EFI fuel pump. The chip is programmed for the 2F and runs OK in other TBI 2Fs. Ran it with the toy ignition with the tach signal coming from the – coil to the EST reference hi and grounded the EST reference low. Ran like shit by dumping way too much fuel in. Put it on SG’s WINALDL laptop and saw that it wasn’t getting a clean tach signal (ie the ECM didn’t know it was running) Dropped in the DUI and hooked up the tach signal from the DUI to the EST reference hi. I fire it up now and I am pretty sure the ECM sees it running because the SES light goes off for a couple of seconds after you start it up (it always stayed on before). The only code I get is 42 which is the Electronic Spark Control which is not hooked up.
I have four guesses as to possible problems 1) timings off, put the DUI in a 7 degrees and was not right, put it in at 14 degrees and it ran better, but still not right. 2) the fuel pressure is too high, I rebuilt the TBI before I put it on and may have fucked the fuel pressure setting, I am going to get a fuel pressure gauge this week 3) the injectors or something else is different from the newer TBI, although the TBI was identical to the astro TBI other than the smaller TPS. 4) the IAC is not adjusted right and the motor is not getting enough air although it runs like shit all through the throttle range. #3 is my bet right now, anyone had problems with too high a fuel pressure? I need some help from someone that really knows the 1227747 ECM. I can send stats to where all the pins on the ECM are going if that helps. Sorry this post is so LONG. Any help would be appreciated.

Ricko.

I would recommend using a modified Toyota distributor to retain the ESC. It is certainly possible to eliminate the ESC portion of the EProm, but you would have to had the PROM burnt with those specifics. A generic "2F" prom with spark enabled wont run well this way, it will likely be in limp home mode.

secondly, your motor sounds more hi performance than a typical 2F(head work and headers, etc... this changes intake vacuum and volumetric efficiency, two VERY important aspects of the tuning of the EPROM...

Check fuel pressure.
Adjust TPS
You can reset the AIC, but unless it is idling well, this wont really do alot.

Are you running the '747 computer? I would recommend getting the appropriate sensors and injectors for the application the prom/ecm is from. You need to get all the correct or interchangable ones(they have different part numbers for a reason...) Even if it is not giving a code, it could be giving a resistance value that is within the entire range of the stock one, but not correct compared to other values the computer is seeing.... I would head to pick and pull and have a field day on ONE donor vehicle('747 equiped Astro van?)with all the appropriate sensors and pull the computer and eprom as well. Send that EPROM in for reprogramming.

Just my $.02 Different type vehicles parts DONT like to work together for some reason.

Even with the long post we could use some more info. Are the TPS, MAP and ECT all running in spec? Can you read the values on the WINALDL?
A vac leak will run way rich too if the O2 keeps reading lean and tries to richen the mixture.
The 4.3L injectors should be the same unless the PO upgraded to bigger injectors and reprogrammed his PROM, not too likely.
I had a problem with my fuel pressure regulator sticking as well. A fuel PSI reading would be helpful.

What fuel pump specifically? There is ONE Master extrenal pump designed for TBI, most others put out too much pressure.

Woody- The Pump I am using is the one the www.customefis.com recomends, it is not the one for the fuel injected marcis. I can get the number tonight.

Ballard- the TPS is 0.54v closed and 4.9something WOT. THe MAP voltage is on the high side but within range for my altitude. I dont have my own WINALDL setup so I have to borrow one, which I havent had time to do since I got the DUI in. I was wondering about a vac leak, the manifolds were checked and double checked, I dont have a mastercylinder on my booster, but the booster is hooked up to the manifold. The injectors are for the 4.3L.

cruiserbrett-I am running the 747 ECM. The TBI were identical except the TPS which makes the same Voltages. the Eprom I am running is supposed to be fuel only, but since it is flashing 42, it may not be. I havent actually drivin the truck (has no body or seats or brakes), so I am going on warm up right now. I am going to try to get it out of the garage and try to get it in closed loop this weekend if I can keep it running long enough. As for a prom, I may have to break down and buy the shit to program them and make my own.


THanks for the help, keep the ideas coming.

Ricko.

Ricko,
I have all the stuff to burn PROMs and it is WORTH IT!!! Instead of having to shell out $$$ to get one burnt to correct something, I can do it in 30 minutes.

You need a programmer(I used thePocket Programmer (http://xtronics.com/memory/EPROM.htm) and it works great.)

I got an eprom eraser (http://www.digikey.com/scripts/us/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=74824&Row=162819) it is about $40...

Then you need spare eproms...these are obsoleted by most manufacturers and you might have to pull them from other '747 computers...

You can do all the editing you need with freeware...Use winbin or promedit

-Brett

ESC is only for the knock sensor. You should be able to disable the error code in the prom so the computer won't set it. I am told you don't even need the ESC module connected. I have mine connected, but with the blue wire (the knock sensor) just hanging free.

Code 42 is for EST (electronic spark timing). Does the DUI have a magnetic pickup? If it does, it would be easy to add spark control.

Not having a VSS is no big deal. You would need it if you were trying to run EGR and transmission lockup control on an auto trany. Mine did fine without it.

The pump John recommends on customefis is the E2000 (ford quick connect) or the E2182 (5/16 outlet 1/2" inlet). I just used the pump out of an 84 tbird (used a ford tbi setup). The E2000 is the aftermarket replacement for the 84 tbird.

With the 3 wire O2, you should be able to get into closed loop rather quickly just idling.

Lastly, if you are going to keep the truck for a while, I would recommend getting the gear to tune it your self. It will save you a lot of time and headaches. As was mentioned, with your engine modifications, the prom burned by some one else for there system will only get you close. The xtronics programmer and Tuner Cat tuning software make a huge difference.

The pump for TBI motors is the E8153 from Master. I tried thru Autozone and Advance Auto and neither could get it in...hit my local offroad shop and he ordered it no problem, $75 or so.

You can get reconditioned proms from JamecoJameco (2732A) (http://www.jameco.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/Jameco/searchResult.d2w/report?sort=BKW&search=2732A&Go.x=24&Go.y=4) for about $5 each.

Originally posted by Zog
Ran like shit by dumping way too much fuel in. Any help would be appreciated.

Ricko.

This is a little too vague to be helpful. How does it run at idle, mid and high RPM and how is it under acceleration and deceleration? Does it start easily?

How do you know it is running rich? Engines usually run pretty well even way rich in the mid to high end, but they don't tend to idle well.

High duration cams can play hell with manifold vacuum at idle and this would give you an erroneous MAP signal.

The Master E2182 is the pump that I am using. It just seems strange that there is puddle of gas in the manifold after you run it for a minute or two. It is shooting in WAY TOO much gas. One of two things, too long a injector pulse or too much pressure. Like I said I am going to swing by the race car shops on wedsday to get a gauge and adapter to test fuel pressure. WHat should I do if it is too high? Summit has an adjustable regulator for this TBI, or I may have to go to an external regulator. I plan on buying that shit to program myself, but the wife is still in med school and we are looking to build a house, so we are BROKE.
Rick.

Originally posted by Pin Head


This is a little too vague to be helpful. How does it run at idle, mid and high RPM and how is it under acceleration and deceleration? Does it start easily?

How do you know it is running rich? Engines usually run pretty well even way rich in the mid to high end, but they don't tend to idle well.

High duration cams can play hell with manifold vacuum at idle and this would give you an erroneous MAP signal.

Here is what happens when I try to run it.
Prime the fuel system by turning the key on and off several times
Crank, starts, chugs with a very low idle (200-300rpm)
try to give it open the throttle and it misses terribly and the exhuast is very rich with unburned fuel. At this point, there puddle of fuel in the bottom of the intake and the garage is filled with fumes. I usually turn it off and run gasping out of the garage.

Here is the kicker, with the tach signal coming off the stock toyota -coil, it would miss and then when you would give it throttle, it would clear up and run at 1/2 to WOT. Now, with the DUI, I cant get it to clear up and it just misses throughout the throttle range.

Way too rich!

Fuel pressure... you want around 15 psi. (TBI installation). For Port Injection, they run around 60 psi. Just a starting point.

On the EPROMS... 2732's or 2764? Never thought about those EPROMS going obsolete! Hmm, side business of doing flash memcal replacements looks good. :D Seriously which are used? All my old junk is in storage, but had around a fewhundred eproms (pulls when firmware was updated on embedded stuff... pre flash days!). Need to remember NOT to toss them when I start digging stuff out.

Funny... still have my old Halda Twin Master and Curta from TSD rally days... find out they are in demand... darn, can't find them to list them on eBay (normally I keep stuff like that, but Twin Masters are fetching up to $1000!)

Tom :usa:

OK, I understand now. A puddle of gas and fumes can't be good, but you may have more than 1 problem. Are you sure that the injector isn't just stuck open? Does it do the same thing when you disconnect its wire (Two barrel, right? check both)? If so, then it is stuck open. If not, it is a signal issue. Either the ECU is bad or it is getting bad signals telling it to pour on the fuel. If you have a spare ECU, that would be an easy test. Bad inputs are harder, because you need to know their normal ranges and what would happen to the mixture at the extremes of their ranges.

You may have more than 1 problem. Seems strange that it ran better with the Yota distributor. You might put it back while you are fixing the fuel problem. I doubt that the tach signal would be any different; it is just a pulse.

I don't want to be too simplistic, but then you don't want to overthink a problem and have it be something simple. Is the Coolant temp reading OK? It sounds as you're past full enrich anyway, but if the circuit is reading all the way cold it'll dump a bunch of fuel.
I like the idea of pulling one injector wire and then the other to see if it dumps when not energized.

Couple more things...

Get a timing light and check the injectors. Aim the light at the injectors when it is running(okay, barely running) You should be able to see them pulsing/spraying fuel. This may not work but could help you figure out what is up.

The spark module under the cap of the correct distributor for the '747 computer has a tach output for the computer if I am not mistaken. this is for the computer... Using the tach output on the cap of the large cap HEI(without EST) for the input to the computer might be the problem. I have no idea if these signals are the same, but I HIGHLY doubt it, as the tach signal on the coil is attached to the neg of the coil,IIRC, and the tach signal wire to the computer is attached to the module

In the attached picture of the shop maunal diagram, the ECM does not use the "tach lead" input from the coil(not connected to anything in the diagram. It uses the reference wire(B5-ppl/wht) for the engine rpm input to the ECM, and I bet the signals are different...

-Brett

The injectors dont squirt if you disconnect the wires, that was one of the first things I looked at. Yeah, I think I have more than one problem, but I am trying to knock off one at a time. I will try to check the voltages on the temp sensor, it may be not be getting a good ground. Maybe it thinks it is really cold, it isnt my garage is usually around 50-60degrees.

I really need to get it on WINALDL again, anybody have an old laptop with win95 and serial port they want to part with cheap?

Thanks guys

Rick.

Hi Zog,

You said you ran WinALDL before... Did you save some of the logs that it created? If you could send those to me, that would help tremendously in debugging it.

Also, since the gas is "pooling up" it sounds like throttle plates may be a litte too closed. You can open them up a turn with the throttle plate adjustment on the TB. That will basically set the min idle.

I have full ESC and Spark control using the stock Toy distributor, but it was initally a pain in the ass to get the base timing done... You have to put it in "limp home mode" and adjust it from there. I finally got a good base timing, and it made a world of difference (was running way to retarded).

Always willing to help another 2F owner inject their Cruiser... :D

Check to make sure your return line is on right. I just got finished a 4.3 tbi swap in my 4runner and it ran like shit(rich ,wouldnt idle right ,no power,)Had to put it on the trailer and drive 12 hours to tellico for someone to tell me my return was on the vent for the tank switched that around and it runs fine now.
might be way off base but just another opinion.

MAtt

Zog, everything I type here relate only to factory systems, which is the only thing I have experience with.
rich, causes I have run into,
Wrong fuel pump, too much pressure.
CTS stuck or the wire grounded, this makes the ECM see -40 degrees.
Bad MAP sensor, I keep several in my tool box for testing.
Do you know what the manifold vacuum is at idle?
You could run a vacuum line from another running engine to the MAP, to toss this theory out
Perhaps you have 350 injectors in a 4.3 throttle body?
The TBI regulator is built into the throttle body, which means for it to function, it must have an adequate return line, the excess is dumped via the return.
Do have the data plug installed and a way to read live data?
Butch

reorx -when I ran WinALDL before it waswith the stock TOY ignition and it wasnt getting a good tach signal because the RPM was bouncing from 100 to 6500rpm while the motor was barley idling, so I didnt get any logs yet. I will save them next time I get on. The throttle plates are completely too closed. It looks like the screw to adjust it is plugged off, do I need to drill out the plug to adjust it? I am pretty set on using the DUI (since I just spent $400 on it) and doing Fuel only. I think one possible problem (I have heard of this before) could be that the ECM thinks the motor is spinning 2x or 3x the actuall RPM. I am using the TACH signal off the DUI to the purple/white wire (EST ref) and I am not sure this is right. I may have to wire in a second computer igition modual to fool the ECM into thinking it is running the timing.

blt2rok- I am sure the return line is returning because I put in all new fuel lines and I am running the truck out of a 5gal gas can right now.

texican-I am going to get a fuel pressure gauge tomorrow, I am also going to check the CTS, new MAP and have checked the voltage is good, I can read live data, but dont have a computor yet, I dont know the manifold vac, but the voltage on the MAP does change when the motor is running. 99% sure the injectors are for a 4.3L and I do have a good return line as mentioned above.


Question for all, if I put the pressure gauge in right before the TBI inlet will that be representive of the pressure inside the TBI? How do I adjust the pressure on the TBI itself? Lastly, if a pump is putting out, say, 25psi and I adjust the TBI regulator down to 12-15psi will the guage read that? It should because the regulator is basically allowing more flow and pressure should drop regardless of what the pump can put out.

Thanks, I will post things I haved checked this weekend when i have some time to fool with this again.
Rick.

You check the pressure between the fuel filter and the TBI, AFAIK, the stock regulator is not adjustable. BTW I know from experience though it will not compensate for higher pressures of a TPI pump, one of my customers installed the pump for a 98 up GM PU into his old 89, SOB flooded like a beatch

TBI injectors have two little color stripes under the plugs....
4.3 will be Yellow and Blue
5.7 will be Orange and Black
Not sure about the 4.3 liter flow rate but the 5.7 is supposed to have a 55 lb/hr from the orange/black injectors
BTW there is also apparently a 65 lb/hr injector that was only ever installed in caprice cop cars that has a yellow/brown color code... I bet a lot of these are sitting around un-used in some taxi company garage after they switched the cars to propane.....

Have you tried pulling the module out of the S-10 distributor and triggering it with the Toyota hall effect sensor?

Guess I'll throw my thoughts into the mix.

I would venture to say that the EEPROM is not burned without Electronic Spark Control. I say this because a code 42 is for the bypass being disconected or gronded. This ckt is opened when setting intial timing. If your PROM was burned without ESC you shouldn't be getting this code. I would also venture that the ECM is looking for a different signal than tach refference from an HEI dist (i assume DUI is a basic HEI distributor). I was looking thorugh Howell's install manual and hookup for a PROM without ESC the line is using a tach ref signal.
SO I would say to verify that you have the right program in the PROM
http://www.howell-efi.com/technical_support/4_barrel.pdf

Oh, and also check that the gaskets around the injectors and the regulator are not leaking and pooling gas around them and into the manifold.

Last, you mentioned that you cycle the key several times to prime the TBI. You should only need to key on and you should see the injectors prime initally, if you key several times you may be priming too much, one key cycle should be enough.

HTH

On the EPROMS... 2732's or 2764? Never thought about those EPROMS going obsolete!

2732's are what come in a ECM. I think you can use the 2764, you just have to fill the extra space on the prom (copy the bin twice?). I have found new 2732A proms from NTE for ~$20 too.

Craig Moates has a setup for switching bins on the go (street, rock crawling, towing, etc..). http://moates.net/gmecm/hworder.html (See product number GP2). It also uses a flashable prom.

I was told that a big cam would change the vacuum that the sensors would read. The computer would think that throttle is wide open at idle etc. I put in a cam from upnover.com designed for tbi. This could be your problem if your cam is far from stock.
I hope this helps but changing a cam SUX.
Doug

On subject of TPI diag, using WINAldl, is there a web site or book that describes what is normal for certain ECM and motors? The information is fine, but need to know how to decipher...

Thanks,
Keith

engine might not be getting enough air. I had the same problem on a willys that I built for a friend. Had a built 283 that had came in on trade from another friends street rod project that he wanted to use. Got engine running you could hear each cylinder hit running way rich, check fuel pressure fine,tried timing changes, different stock tbi's same problem. Put a somewhat smaller cam in it same thing,changed to a 670 holley tbi problem went away. Put a paper type air filter on it got wet first trip problem came back, put k/n filter on it when got back to shop cleared up.

Success! I got the fuel pressure on this week and it is around 10psi..normal. I borrowed a scantool from a club member this weekend and put it on. It said it was running 2500rpm at idle. I got a good signal by running a computer 8-pin ignition module in parallel with the normal one in the dui. I then ran the referance wire (purple/wht wire) to the 8-pin. I fired it up and it ran and idled without flooding out. It still doesnt run perfect, but it runs 100x better than it did. The rpm readings now seem to be right. If anyone wants to know exactly how I did it, I can draw up a wire diagam and send it to you. Thanks for everyones help. I may have more questions later if I cant get it totally right.

Ricko.

Good to hear that is runs better!!! Post a pic of the wiring diagram, I am sure people can use the info...

-Brett