We are trying to define our rules for a Modified Stock Class. One area of contention seems to be max. tire size for a starter or trail rig type stock Class (at this point name Modified Stock).
Here are your choices:

1. 35"

2. 36"

3. 37"

4. other____


Measured by device, unweighted at 10 psi. (added for clarification)


This will help us determine where to start the lowest vehicle classification.
Thanks
Rich Klein
CalROCS

I personally think that keeping it down to 35 inches will keep people more inclined to keeping it closer to stock, and perhaps more importantly, make a clearer seperation of the classes both for competitors and spectators. We've probably all been to events where there's too many classes, many of which seem identical to the previous class, and as a spectator you're left wondering 'well what's the difference between these and the ones which just ran?'. Anyway, just my 2c.

I agree, If it's really a stock class the tires should be a little closer to tires that could have come on a stock vehicle.

Originally posted by CJ3BWILLYS
I agree, If it's really a stock class the tires should be a little closer to tires that could have come on a stock vehicle.

Yeah, what he said :)

My original thought was 35", but then I thought about the guys running the 36" Swampers that are about the same as me (SOA on flat OE springs) on my 35's.

37's (and 38's) seem to be appreciably bigger - at least to me.

1. 35's:D

One more vote for 35". This from a mudhead's perspective, but that's where I cut off MY lowest class in competition mud. The "average" 35 we see at our mud races are 35" radial MT's of various brands. On the other hand, we RARELY see anything taller than 35" except TSL's, Boggers, & the occasional Buckshot, Gumbo, or Hawg - no radials. 35" is a good place to cut it off IMO.


TEX

36, (since 35and 36's are so close in actual size, depending on mfg.)

I voted 36 because a 36" TSL is about equal to a 35x16 bogger, at least in height

I would have said 33's but you didnt have that as a choice.

Stock should mean stock.. you ain't puttin 35's on a stock anything.

Modified should be 33+37's

Super modified should be 35+42's

open class should be anything.

Originally posted by BellyUp
I would have said 33's but you didnt have that as a choice.

Stock should mean stock.. you ain't puttin 35's on a stock anything.

Modified should be 33+37's

Super modified should be 35+42's

open class should be anything.

this gets my vote

Originally posted by BellyUp
I would have said 33's but you didnt have that as a choice.

Stock should mean stock.. you ain't puttin 35's on a stock anything.


What about a hummer?:D

Originally posted by 500 HORS
36, (since 35and 36's are so close in actual size, depending on mfg.)

We should be talking about a measured height of the tire at a certain lbs, though right? Not what is says on the side wall?

Instead of a stock class how about a spec class. How about suzuki samuri stock axles stock springs spring under welded or spooled rear and open front. 33" tires max. Whatever cutting and cage work you want. This would be really affordable You could build a competition rig for less than $2000 easily, and it would all come down to driver skill.

Also are you going to measure tires ala ARCA or go by labeled size.

Originally posted by Scout Dude


What about a hummer?:D

Smartass :D

I agree with Bellyup....

i voted before i read what everyone had to say and to be honest id have to agree that 35 should be it even though i put 37. but then again i was thinking what the sidewall says not the actual measurement. but it does make sence that most people that are running 35s are more towards stock. change my vote to 35s

I say 35's. 33's would really be the way to go if you really want to keep it stock.

Measured 35's at a prescribed tire pressure, the same for everyone no matter what the sidewall says.

i think it would depend on the rest of the rules in the class. i.e axles size.

if you have to run stock axles make it 33"

Camo brings up a good point about stock axles. what includes a stock axle. Does it have to be from the same year vechicle or as a bolt in swap. I replaced the front in my truck with a newer one out of another ranger would this move me from the stock to a modified class?

Matt

If its a modified stock class, then I say 35's. Otherwise you sort of limit anything close to fullsize from running. Also depends on the rest of the rules. If they were something like:

1) 35" max sidewall reading (hey, if you choose to run BFG MTs and they run small, it's your fault)
2) stock style suspension with lift allowed
3) stock axle tubes/housings but gears and traction devices allowed
4) stock frame, body lift okay
5) stock shape sheet metal (fiberglass okay, no enlarged fender openings etc.)
6) bumpers required (stock or aftermarket)
7) stock motor (ignition, filters, etc okay but cams and such are not)
8) stock tranny/t-case

Of course this would let my big-ass truck fit into this category :D and it would cover most daily driver type rigs that aren't totally stock.

i agree with paveman... it is alot more work to check all of that but it would be considered fair

Brian

Do NOT use measured height. Everyone has their own idea of how it should be done, and it's tough to be consistent. We did that for years in mud racing & still had arguments about it at every friggin' race even though I tech inspected every single truck for 5+ years in exactly the same manner. Use sidewall stamp, we haven't had one complaint since we went to that even though guys in the 33" class are putting 33" TSL's on 6" rims to make 'em as tall as 35's.

TEX

Well, I voted for 35's but only because you did not have 33's as an option. And no, I don't run 33's now, but I think it would be a blast to watch.

Originally posted by 82FB
...And no, I don't run 33's now...

Does anyone? (besides Zuks :emb: )

i'd say 36's, NWRCA ARCA and UROC all are going with 36 as the limit, though some go by sidewall others go by measuring, but why not keep it consistant through all event's so if someone wanted to compete in more than one they didn't have to buy new tires?

Originally posted by DSI
why not keep it consistant through all event's so if someone wanted to compete in more than one they didn't have to buy new tires?

Solution to that is to purchase the set that would be legal everywhere. When I bought my most recent set of mud racing tires, I knew that I'd be competing in several sanctioning bodies & depending on where I went, the limit would be:

UNDER 36" stamped
36.5" OR under stamped
37" OR under measured
38.0" OR under stamped
38.5" OR under stamped

Went with Q78's. Makes me the top dog in the UNDER 36" class & nobody's got better rubber in the 36.5" or 38.0" stamped classes. But, I'm sometimes outgunned in 37" measured & 38.5" stamped. And actually, it's kinda nice not to have the SAME people dominant at EVERY event.


TEX

DSI.....This why I'm asking.....UROC and I are working to come up with a standard, I'm the one pushing for a true everyday type trail rig type class, hence the questions.
Thanks
Rich Klein
CalROCS

I think a set tire size would give an unfair advantage to smaller rigs (i.e. sammys). How about structuring the rules so that they in themselves limit the tire size that can fit on the vehicle? like limiting lift and the amount of fender trimming? I think that would allow more variety in the class. A larger vehicle could probably fit a larger tire, where as a smaller vehicle may only fit a smaller tire.

Measured by device, unweighted at 10 psi. (added for clarification)

That is going to be a HUGE pain in the ass....every competitors wheels (and all of them, stricly speaking) will have to be dismounted, measured with a calibrated judges pressure gauge, and measured...yikes!!

Better you measure on any rim on the rig at competition weight and pressure (i.e measured as they sit at the start,no getting out to adjust after) so that people can play with weight, rim, and pressure as they like.

Or go by sidewall stamp.

If you go by measure, I say 33" (most 35" marked at comp pressure will fit).

If you go by sidewall...35"

Though a big part of me wants to say 33" stamped or 32" measured ...that's a lot more like "modified stock"...Hummers, 715's, Power wagons excepted (nobody competes these anyway, do they).

Shoot, now thatI think about it, for modified stock, you need 2 tire size limits, depending on weight class...one for sami's, Jeeps, and Toys (say 33")...another for bigger rigs, say 35:.

Shoot......you have a tough job :emb:

33's

I would have voted for 33's Most stock setups could fit them. but with your choices i would have to go with 35's

What's with all the 33" talk, don't forget Rich is asking about the Modified Stock class, not the plain stock class. This all depends on the other rules of the class.

Maybe a split based on GVW is needed, under 4500lb is 33" and over is 35". Ya know, like the CA frame height laws.

THis is gonna sound dumb but I didnt know there where 2 classes. I am looking on Calrocs.com and still dont see anything. Hey Rich if there is a class split somewhere tell me where to look?

Mike Ladd

Originally posted by Big Rich
DSI.....This why I'm asking.....UROC and I are working to come up with a standard, I'm the one pushing for a true everyday type trail rig type class, hence the questions.
Thanks
Rich Klein
CalROCS

that's why i said 36's, i plan to compete in UROC and currently own 36's, and i know this is what their site currently say's, i also competed in NWRCA and they went 36in by sidewall designation, i personally would feel 36 by measurment to be a good and fair way because of the fact that 2 different brand's both claiming to be 36's could be 2in different, even the difference in s TSL and a TSL/SX is noticable in teh same sidewall designation

so IMHO i would think keeping it the same through ALL of the series would be more compeditor friendly, and cheaper too!


now i'm puzzled, why would someone suggest limiting tire size by make of vehicle?? :confused: i've seen 36's on zuk's and 33's on toy's both run in a modified class :confused: both rigs did fine, if your going to have a class make all rules the same for every vehicle in the class, not segregate it by makes

Originally posted by Snowball
THis is gonna sound dumb but I didnt know there where 2 classes. I am looking on Calrocs.com and still dont see anything. Hey Rich if there is a class split somewhere tell me where to look?

Mike Ladd

The classes will be for next year, not next week's event. :)

Thanks Kelly, ditto what she said......
Rich Klein
CalROCS

Originally posted by DSI

...er too!


now i'm puzzled, why would someone suggest limiting tire size by make of vehicle??


Because on a Sami 33's are modified-stock
on a Jeep 35's are modified-stock
on a Toyota truck 36' are modified stock
On a Chevrolet Truck fullsize 37's are modified stock
Bla bla bla etc....


On a sami 36's are modified!
on a sami 38's are super modified.
On a sami 42's are insane.
But on a Toyota truck are 42's really insane?


:confused: i've seen 36's on zuk's and 33's on toy's both run in a modified class :confused: both rigs did fine, if your going to have a class make all rules the same for every vehicle in the class, not segregate it by makes

Originally posted by BellyUp
Because on a Sami 33's are modified-stock
on a Jeep 35's are modified-stock
on a Toyota truck 36' are modified stock
On a Chevrolet Truck fullsize 37's are modified stock
Bla bla bla etc....


On a sami 36's are modified!
on a sami 38's are super modified.
On a sami 42's are insane.
But on a Toyota truck are 42's really insane?


so your saying it's OK to give a sami running toy axles a disadvantage on ground clearance and possibly aproach angle just because it's a smaller body? doesn't seem fair, if your going to set rules for a class it should be EQUAL to all compeditors

yea a sami on 35's with sami axles would have more clerance than a toy, so what? if everyone was worried aboput that they'd all probably run sami's...

36,s set the tire size. it is up to the individual to bring the vehicle at their choice...
Mike

:rainbow:

I do, for now, theyve gotten me everywhere i wanted to go, just took a little longer, and no i dont stack rocks
Originally posted by Rabbit91


Does anyone? (besides Zuks :emb: )

Originally posted by Pavemen
What's with all the 33" talk, don't forget Rich is asking about the Modified Stock class, not the plain stock class.

And just how many vehicles come with 33's stock? :rolleyes:


I say 35's as stamped on the sidewall. That way it's the same for everyone no matter what their vehicle, no bitching, no complaining. Another rule that might be good for a modified stock class is that the suspension should be the same type as originally available. ie: IFS, coil or leaf sprung, but no restriction on spring placement (SOA, SUA, relocated torsion bars, etc). Just to keep everyone honest.

As much as you guys like to bag on him, I thought Bob Hazels modified rules were pretty much perfect. They go something like this...

1)35 as marked by the MFG
2)Stock style suspension eg, if it came with leafs, it has to run leafs etc.
3) No drop bars etc.
3) Wheelbase within 2 inches of stock
4) Any drivetrain you want
5) All dot aproved lighting
6) current reg and insurance

Sonds like most "mild" rigs on the con to me!

Originally posted by warthog


And just how many vehicles come with 33's stock? :rolleyes:


I say 35's as stamped on the sidewall. That way it's the same for everyone no matter what their vehicle, no bitching, no complaining. Another rule that might be good for a modified stock class is that the suspension should be the same type as originally available. ie: IFS, coil or leaf sprung, but no restriction on spring placement (SOA, SUA, relocated torsion bars, etc). Just to keep everyone honest.

Thats my point, its modified stock. Whats the point of modifying everything else and not going up in tire size. At least go up toa tire size that would make trying to run a Blazer or something worth while, if someone wanted to.

You are saying the same thing I did in another post where I listed the basic rules I'd like to see in this class.

TTT, sorry, but I've got to give everyone a chance to vote, even though I think I know the out come.

Originally posted by Scout Dude


What about a hummer?:D

You offerin?

:flipoff2:

Originally posted by scwafish
As much as you guys like to bag on him, I thought Bob Hazels modified rules were pretty much perfect. They go something like this...

1)35 as marked by the MFG
2)Stock style suspension eg, if it came with leafs, it has to run leafs etc.
3) No drop bars etc.
3) Wheelbase within 2 inches of stock
4) Any drivetrain you want
5) All dot aproved lighting
6) current reg and insurance

Sonds like most "mild" rigs on the con to me!

I agree I think this is the most even and fair rules Ive read so far. When people are limited to 35s on the marking its not a bad thing. 35in swampers almost all measure 35in tall in reality. So if you read the measurements of tires on swampers the 36in tsl bias is actually 36.3in tall. If you run mud terrains you are running about 33 to 34in tall. No matter what you designate people are going to have a problem. I even wheel with Dsi and Id hate to force him into a smaller tire or harder class but I think most rigs running 36in and bigger are pretty modified and set up.

i agree with the 33 cencept, if you have to go bigger than 35's stamped on the sidewall. let people figure it out from there. being equal in tire size is what you are looking for, if people find a way to tweak them to work better then those people are smarter than others.:cool:

This may be pulling it off subject but what about crawler boxes 4 to 1 kits and swaped in trannys. Will these all have to stay origional as well or can they be swapped out?

Matt

Originally posted by DSI



so your saying it's OK to give a sami running toy axles a disadvantage on ground clearance and possibly aproach angle just because it's a smaller body? doesn't seem fair, if your going to set rules for a class it should be EQUAL to all compeditors

yea a sami on 35's with sami axles would have more clerance than a toy, so what? if everyone was worried aboput that they'd all probably run sami's...

DSI, I see where your going with this. But my question is the Wheelbase of a sami.

Yes its a modified stock class. Ie: 4 to 1's Marlins. lower gears.
Lifts,

If it was just a stock class then I would say 31's max.

Just because someone wants a toy axle in their sami. and he looses some ground clearance in the process. maybee if he/she should put even bigger tires on and get that ground clearance back, and run the next class up.

I do understand what your gettin at here. But I still believe for a modified stock class. You should only limit by tire size. Let everything else get modified as long as the majority of the suspension is stock in configuration..

I can under stand shock mounts being moved, But no coilovers and 4 links.... That is the next class up.

to answer a question asked, gearing (any), axles with brakes at each wheel, (axle width still under consideration), stock bodies with minimal triming, no full hydraulic steering systems. stock suspension to frame mounting points, power train swaps (any), windsheilds (stock), lighting (stock), and stock suspension configuration. Would all limitations for thes Modified Stock Classification.
Rich Klein
CalROCS

if the modified stock has a small tire limit then they need to be on a different course. I was in Las Cruces this weekend and the 35" tire guys held us up. Not because of there rigs but because they hung up on the rocks because of the low clearance. Everyone needs to remember times are changing 33" and 35" tires are to small these days for hard climbing.

Our thought on different classes and courses is that they would Not run at the same time on the same course. If they did they would run later and on a modified course and with a different scoring system. yes we need to keep the action going.
Rich Klein
CalROCS

If you were gonna allow different sized tires for different vehicles, the easiest way would be just to measure ground clearance at the pumpkin. The advantage of the smaller vehicles is that they can run smaller running gear due to the reduced weight. So, rather than making it REALLY complicated, just say "X Inches max ground clearance" under the pumpkin.


Having said all that, I STILL like the 35" stamped height best :)

TEX

if you're talking a pure stock class - it should be just that STOCK! once you add a B/L, SOA, spring lift, etc... you're no longer stock. for tire size, to keep it fair, I would say no more than 2" larger than the biggest tire that was available from the factory. (yes I realize I just contridicted my "stock" comment :flipoff2: ) just my $.01

Originally posted by scwafish
As much as you guys like to bag on him, I thought Bob Hazels modified rules were pretty much perfect. They go something like this...

1)35 as marked by the MFG
2)Stock style suspension eg, if it came with leafs, it has to run leafs etc.
3) No drop bars etc.
3) Wheelbase within 2 inches of stock
4) Any drivetrain you want
5) All dot aproved lighting
6) current reg and insurance

Sonds like most "mild" rigs on the con to me!


EXACTLY,

except there should be a track width limit, acording to Bobs rules you can be as wide as you want. He should limit it to 2-3" wider than stock.


AND... Think about this....

Bone ass stock sami's, The only thing that is required and the only thing you can add to it is lockers and a cage.
ericfilar@fatcity