comp rigs often hook there winch up to the front axles for steep inclines i have been thinking:rolleyes: thats dangerous at times any way what if you put an air cylinder in the center of the axle with a air control valve for pulling down the front or jack it up if needed .the control valve must push pull and dump so the cyl would not hamper the spring rate you could also put one on the rear and lower the rig or jack up the rig say you get hung up in the middle jacker up ! steep climbs pull the nose down.
who has the noledge for the specs on the air controlls i have worked with air valves and cyl. but the dump on the valve for neutral is what i dont know about.this would be for comp use on light weight buggys and such.

Good idea, all those guys running coil over in the front will thanks you, but maybe this is why some guys still choose to run leafs in the front, I guess you cant beat them.

Why is it dangerous? :confused:

Originally posted by Lance
Why is it dangerous? :confused: me thinking is always dangerous :flipoff2:
not the winch i see how it looks sorry redneck no type good:(

yeah, i don't see the advantage over just using a winch, with regards to climbing. for descents or hicenters - the air ram would be obviously better...

You could do something similar with a vertically mounted hydraulic 2 way cylinder with the front and back sides connected, with a line lock in the single hose that connects the two sides. Flip a switch and it is locked solid, open the circuit and it is a shock.

Since it can't actual raise or lower the vehicle, it can't be called active suspension.

Also, no compessors.

Whats the difference between your idea and using hydro rams in use. Isn't it simaler to forced articulation but just on compression and rebound.
If for comp use is it legal. I know forced articulation isn't and its simaler, but thats was a couple years ago.
Neat idea though

Originally posted by bent70
Whats the difference between your idea and using hydro rams in use. Isn't it simaler to forced articulation but just on compression and rebound.
If for comp use is it legal. I know forced articulation isn't and its simaler, but thats was a couple years ago.
Neat idea though
hydro will slow down the suspension even in an open state and all hydros i have seen where at each wheel for forcing articulation this set up i am talking about is to compres the front suspension for steep climbs yet the axles can still articulate unless it is on the bump stops .air would compress with load making the suspension still able to handle impact upon landing the frontaxle depending on the preasure you crank into the cyl at the time .
get it

Yep, I get it.:D I was just tring to say its a simaler concept to forced articulation, just that you move the complete axle up/down instead of indivigual wheels. From a comp standpoint it could be illegal.:confused:
But then again the suspension is free to work so it may be an acceptable way to get around the rule(if there still is one) and running your winch line to the axle.
From the sound of what your saying it seems like it would work really well in therory. I think it a step higher than redneck tech.:flipoff2:

So, basically, you would in stall a set of air shocks, one at each axle. Why couldn't you just hook up an air tank with a splitter in it and a line running to each shock to fill them, then another valve to purge them.

:idea: Or, a self leveling airbag setup (Caddy type) with all the gizmos. It will do it all for you.

Originally posted by motorhead72k5
So, basically, you would in stall a set of air shocks, one at each axle. Why couldn't you just hook up an air tank with a splitter in it and a line running to each shock to fill them, then another valve to purge them.

:idea: Or, a self leveling airbag setup (Caddy type) with all the gizmos. It will do it all for you.
air cylenders not air shocks.
tell more about this splitter valvae.;)

Originally posted by bent70
Yep, I get it.:D I was just tring to say its a simaler concept to forced articulation, just that you move the complete axle up/down instead of indivigual wheels. From a comp standpoint it could be illegal.:confused:
But then again the suspension is free to work so it may be an acceptable way to get around the rule(if there still is one) and running your winch line to the axle.
From the sound of what your saying it seems like it would work really well in therory. I think it a step higher than redneck tech.:flipoff2:
nop its redneck tech for sure remember you ant had tha south till ya had it in your mouth:flipoff2:
just playing:D NOT

How abou hydro ram runing off of yuo steering pump some how i would have to figure out all of the detail and stuuf

Originally posted by nozuk
How abou hydro ram runing off of yuo steering pump some how i would have to figure out all of the detail and stuuf
hydarulic in a neutral bypass state is to slugish it would then be your super stiff monoshock.air is more friendly flows with less resistance .;)

Frankie, you've been growin' a little attitude since you first got on here!! You go, Boy!:flipoff2:
Rednecks don't use trick air valves and cylinders, they use big, beefy, meatheads that just grab and lift! Steep climbs? "Sit on the bumper, Bubba, we're goin' up!!"

Hee, hee, hee!!!

Originally posted by twistedmetal
Frankie, you've been growin' a little attitude since you first got on here!! You go, Boy!:flipoff2:
Rednecks don't use trick air valves and cylinders, they use big, beefy, meatheads that just grab and lift! Steep climbs? "Sit on the bumper, Bubba, we're goin' up!!"

Hee, hee, hee!!! well bubba was workin real good but then he shot the juck box last night so he is in jail:flipoff2:

Originally posted by frankie finland

hydarulic in a neutral bypass state is to slugish it would then be your super stiff monoshock.air is more friendly flows with less resistance .;)


I see what you are saying know u could run it with your ARB compressor


You are a great thinker Frankie

Originally posted by frankie finland

air cylenders not air shocks.
tell more about this splitter valvae.;)

I don't know of one specifically, but let me look around a bit.

Originally posted by nozuk



I see what you are saying know u could run it with your ARB compressor


You are a great thinker Frankie
i would rather have a larger valum of air supply with a tank so the cyl. would react fast and not wate for the air to pump it up.;)
i am just a redneck on a mision when you find out what that mision is please tell me:D

what kinda valve would you use

I haven't found anything yet, but I am picturing something like the splitters you put on your water spigots so you can hook up two garden hoses. They have a valve for each outlet that can be opened and closed independantly.

Or, something like one of these. I suppose it could work for air.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=Ball+Valves&product%5Fid=GF+3%2DWay+PVC+Ball+Valve

Originally posted by nozuk
what kinda valve would you use
well that is up in the air ?
i have some air valves they look like little bitty hydro valves but they are aluminum.it is a two way tandem center .
hey as i wright this i am having a:nuke: opps i ment:idea: i will think on my idea back in a minet;)

Originally posted by motorhead72k5
Or, something like one of these. I suppose it could work for air.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=Ball+Valves&product%5Fid=GF+3%2DWay+PVC+Ball+Valve
nop! but keep up the good work:D
thanks for lookin

Frankie,

I have been toying with the same idea for a while. For me its mainly to raise the chassis when I get highcentered with the low chassis I am building, but would like to pull the front down and raise the rear for climbs which could be done with just air bags or similar.

This would be my idea for the simplest way to achieve it. Get 2 air cylinders with double throw and plumb each end to its own air tank. Run 4 valves to control the up and down. Us a single pump to pressurize all tanks and open the valves to raise and lower when needed and tanks will fill the ram. The valves would have to have a setting for two outlets one for the ram and one for release when you want shocks and spring to take over. Pic of this simple setup below, hope you don't mind the paint CAD work. Not sure it works as its in my head and not on the rig.

Another idea would be to use valves like hummers use for CTIS which inflate and have a release for each tire, but plumb the 4 valves to the rams. Only thing is this will not move as quick as the valve setup above.

Just some thoughts, let me know if you come up with parts and make it work, as I bet you'll design and finish before I do. I also don't recall EEROC as outlawing force articulation, but I could be wrong.

Edit: You would probably want check valve before each tank so when the ram is presurized the other tanks won't loose pressure.

Originally posted by cruiserrg
Frankie,

I have been toying with the same idea for a while. For me its mainly to raise the chassis when I get highcentered with the low chassis I am building, but would like to pull the front down and raise the rear for climbs which could be done with just air bags or similar.

This would be my idea for the simplest way to achieve it. Get 2 air cylinders with double throw and plumb each end to its own air tank. Run 4 valves to control the up and down. Us a single pump to pressurize all tanks and open the valves to raise and lower when needed and tanks will fill the ram. The valves would have to have a setting for two outlets one for the ram and one for release when you want shocks and spring to take over. Pic of this simple setup below, hope you don't mind the paint CAD work. Not sure it works as its in my head and not on the rig.

Another idea would be to use valves like hummers use for CTIS which inflate and have a release for each tire, but plumb the 4 valves to the rams. Only thing is this will not move as quick as the valve setup above.

Just some thoughts, let me know if you come up with parts and make it work, as I bet you'll design and finish before I do. I also don't recall EEROC as outlawing force articulation, but I could be wrong.

Edit: You would probably want check valve before each tank so when the ram is presurized the other tanks won't loose pressure.


BINGO!!!!!!!!! I was kind of getting there. The two tanks for each cylinder give you a switchable high-low pressure effect. Nice!

Originally posted by cruiserrg
Frankie,

I have been toying with the same idea for a while. For me its mainly to raise the chassis when I get highcentered with the low chassis I am building, but would like to pull the front down and raise the rear for climbs which could be done with just air bags or similar.

This would be my idea for the simplest way to achieve it. Get 2 air cylinders with double throw and plumb each end to its own air tank. Run 4 valves to control the up and down. Us a single pump to pressurize all tanks and open the valves to raise and lower when needed and tanks will fill the ram. The valves would have to have a setting for two outlets one for the ram and one for release when you want shocks and spring to take over. Pic of this simple setup below, hope you don't mind the paint CAD work. Not sure it works as its in my head and not on the rig.

Another idea would be to use valves like hummers use for CTIS which inflate and have a release for each tire, but plumb the 4 valves to the rams. Only thing is this will not move as quick as the valve setup above.

Just some thoughts, let me know if you come up with parts and make it work, as I bet you'll design and finish before I do. I also don't recall EEROC as outlawing force articulation, but I could be wrong.

Edit: You would probably want check valve before each tank so when the ram is presurized the other tanks won't loose pressure.
man this is red neck tech no drawings unless you use a craola:flipoff2:
what valve are thinking about ?
i would need a preasure setting thingamobob as well .

:D

Originally posted by frankie finland

man this is red neck tech no drawings unless you use a craola:flipoff2:
what valve are thinking about ?
i would need a preasure setting thingamobob as well .

:D

craolas just mess up my screen and I can't see what I am typing.
How about something like this:

http://www.clippard.com/images/products/pictures/TV-3S.jpg

Tech drawing, has inlet, outlet, and exhaust and works to 150 psi:

http://www.clippard.com/images/products/draw/TV-3S.jpg

here is the link. Under $8.00 each! Link (http://www.clippard.com/store/display_details.asp?sku=TV-3S)

Now Note, I have not determined if this valve will handle the duties, but its a place to start.

Originally posted by cruiserrg


craolas just mess up my screen and I can't see what I am typing.
How about something like this:

http://www.clippard.com/images/products/pictures/TV-3S.jpg

Tech drawing, has inlet, outlet, and exhaust and works to 150 psi:

http://www.clippard.com/images/products/draw/TV-3S.jpg

here is the link. Under $8.00 each! Link (http://www.clippard.com/store/display_details.asp?sku=TV-3S)

Now Note, I have not determined if this valve will handle the duties, but its a place to start.
cool get the specs !!!!!;)

Why not just use a Firestone type Airbag (the fast bag systems)system with controls for each corner like the lowriders use? I think they can control each corner individually kind of like hydraulics - or maybe I'm over-simplifying what you're trying to do....

guys down here run hydraulic rams on top of their coil overs.

One of the trucks that is very hard to beat at the moment has front and rear hydraulic lift rams, 10" lift front, 12" back; able to independently adjust each corner

allows the coilover to do its job and still allows for massive changes in suspension height and adjustment for side hills, etc.

not much info as it is all secret squirell competition stuff. :D

see if I can find out some more for you...

Originally posted by ausjeepoffroad.com
guys down here run hydraulic rams on top of their coil overs.

One of the trucks that is very hard to beat at the moment has front and rear hydraulic lift rams, 10" lift front, 12" back; able to independently adjust each corner

allows the coilover to do its job and still allows for massive changes in suspension height and adjustment for side hills, etc.

not much info as it is all secret squirell competition stuff. :D

see if I can find out some more for you...
good deal mate those squirls can be wankers ya no .
pics!!!!!!!!:D

frankie what type of cylinders are you looking to use??? Name and/or part number?

I've been looking for cylinders but can't find too much...

Originally posted by ausjeepoffroad.com
guys down here run hydraulic rams on top of their coil overs.

One of the trucks that is very hard to beat at the moment has front and rear hydraulic lift rams, 10" lift front, 12" back; able to independently adjust each corner

allows the coilover to do its job and still allows for massive changes in suspension height and adjustment for side hills, etc.

not much info as it is all secret squirell competition stuff. :D

see if I can find out some more for you...

I picture this to work something like the pic below. Do you guys think the hydraulic Ram would hold up to side loading forces like this? I don't see why not, might wear the seals prematurely, but then again maybe not. I think this would be a trick setup, but add a lot of weight to the rig. Then again its all give and take. :D

One thing with this design is at low ride hieght the ram is extended and sticking up, maybe you would mount the ram so the piston shaft is mounted to the frame. You wouldn't need a lot of stroke in the ram to be effective. Thoughts?

Originally posted by cruiserrg


I picture this to work something like the pic below. Do you guys think the hydraulic Ram would hold up to side loading forces like this? I don't see why not, might wear the seals prematurely, but then again maybe not. I think this would be a trick setup, but add a lot of weight to the rig. Then again its all give and take. :D

One thing with this design is at low ride hieght the ram is extended and sticking up, maybe you would mount the ram so the piston shaft is mounted to the frame. You wouldn't need a lot of stroke in the ram to be effective. Thoughts?

a better setup would use a bellcrank that pivots on an upper tube, attatch one end to the top of the coilover, and attatch the ram between the other end and the frame, this way there is no weird sideloading on the ram.

Wouldn't you need a hydraulic cylinder to get the force you need? I mean, a 2" diameter air cylinder at 100 psi. is only making 314 lbs. of force on extension and less on the retract side. I would think you would need the higher psi. values of a hydraulic cylinder to get the force that I think you would need. Maybe I got the concept wrong though. You could get more force out of a bigger cylinder, 4" diameter would get you 1256 lbs of force on extension at 100 psi. But a 4" cylider is pretty large size wise and will cost some Bling.
Just a thought.

Keep going I like the "think outdside of the box" concepts.

What shaft size are you looking at in the cylinders frankie?

I'm finding double acting 1.75" bore and 2" bore cylinders with 12" travel for a decent price. Problem is they have a 1/2" shaft and use 3/8" hardware for mounting without room to drill for larger mounting hardware. I think this will survive for just compression/extension duty but have nothing to go off of.

You can add a 1" diameter shaft that uses 3/4" mounting hardware but it's ~$100 more per cylinder.

http://www.fabco-air.com/
Check the online catalog pg. 32-37 for the cylinders I'm looking at. (double acting rear mount pivot 1.75" & 2" bore)

Originally posted by CrazyHorse


a better setup would use a bellcrank that pivots on an upper tube, attatch one end to the top of the coilover, and attatch the ram between the other end and the frame, this way there is no weird sideloading on the ram.

Damn, I should have thought of that. Yes that would be a much better way to design the system. You also could then build bellcrank to achieve faster movement and longer travel with less stroke of the ram.

Thing now would be to find cheap and light hydro rams.

I like the hydro-ram with bellcrank idea. Matt at west texas offroad was telling me he is having someone custom build his rams for the hydroassist steering kits, he said for a reasonable price. Might contact him.

We use lots of pnuematic controls at work mostly smaller stuff for robotics. SMC is one of the most common. The switches above are Clippard, I've seen some of their stuff also.

Originally posted by bigdude
frankie what type of cylinders are you looking to use??? Name and/or part number?

I've been looking for cylinders but can't find too much... i dont know the brand i have a air cyl. at the shop i will look today and wee if there is any info on it.
maybe 2" bore cyl all aluminum.;)

Originally posted by indyTJ
Wouldn't you need a hydraulic cylinder to get the force you need? I mean, a 2" diameter air cylinder at 100 psi. is only making 314 lbs. of force on extension and less on the retract side. I would think you would need the higher psi. values of a hydraulic cylinder to get the force that I think you would need. Maybe I got the concept wrong though. You could get more force out of a bigger cylinder, 4" diameter would get you 1256 lbs of force on extension at 100 psi. But a 4" cylider is pretty large size wise and will cost some Bling.
Just a thought.

Keep going I like the "think outdside of the box" concepts.

You beat me to it. If you are still think of using air, an Air over oil cylinder is another option. Benefits of Hydro, with the convienience of air. These are pretty pricey though. It still may be a possibility using a standard air cylinder if a system is designed using mechanical advantage.

Originally posted by troyman
Why not just use a Firestone type Airbag (the fast bag systems)system with controls for each corner like the lowriders use? I think they can control each corner individually kind of like hydraulics - or maybe I'm over-simplifying what you're trying to do....

This is already in production as a kit for TJs by Off Road Only. The system is computer controlled. I've seen it in person running a demo program where the suspension shifts around, a friend just got it installed.

http://www.offroadonly.com/products/suspension/airock/

Originally posted by frankie finland
i dont know the brand i have a air cyl. at the shop i will look today and wee if there is any info on it.
maybe 2" bore cyl all aluminum.;)

2" bore at 150 psi will supply roughly 500 lbs of force. That should be enough if used at the corners to articulate/compress/extend (what I'm looking to do). That might not be enough to use a single cylinder at the front or rear. My spring rate is roughly 160-180 so I'm allowing for a safety factor of 3 times the required force.

When using a 3 way valve like the one listed before you can add a separate vent valve to let out the pressure of the cylinder. I have yet to find a valve that will allow for 3 way and a separate vent when desired....

Originally posted by big97redtj
It still may be a possibility using a standard air cylinder

You see a problem with what I listed in my previous post??? Not enough of a safety factor?


frankie- You'll need a 4-way valve, not a 3-way, in order to get directional movement in both compression and extension. I haven't been able to find a 4 way valve with a system purge yet but I'm still looking.... Basically a 4-way has an input and two outputs. You select which side you want pressure to got to (via the switch) and then it allows the other side to vent out the valve exhaust. Vice versa if you go the other direction with the valve...

Originally posted by bigdude


2" bore at 150 psi will supply roughly 500 lbs of force. That should be enough if used at the corners to articulate/compress/extend (what I'm looking to do). That might not be enough to use a single cylinder at the front or rear. My spring rate is roughly 160-180 so I'm allowing for a safety factor of 3 times the required force.

When using a 3 way valve like the one listed before you can add a separate vent valve to let out the pressure of the cylinder. I have yet to find a valve that will allow for 3 way and a separate vent when desired....

bigdude...

150 psi is quite a bit of pressure (yes I'm aware that most pneumatic cylinders are rated at that). You can also use a Hydro cylinder with air if you want beefier components (or if some happen to fall your way).

You'll only get an inch or so of compression by overcoming the spring force which will increase linearly based on the height you are collapsing (effective area = cylinder bore - cylinder rod).

Likewise you are trying to overcome an estimated 500lbs at each corner (everything but the axles, wheels, and tires), but spring force is neglected in this case as long as the shackles are swinging (another 2 inches - estimated).

Didn't mean to dummy it down bigdude (as I know even though you are chemically minded you've still had you're share of ME classes).

If you happen to have a blocking valve (that locks up your ports) you may risk a cylinder blowout if you have a impact force on your suspension at that time.

what about some of the stuff out of the back of lowrider magazine? they should more hydraulic cylinders/pumps/valves/switches than you could shake a stick at.

Originally posted by big97redtj
If you happen to have a blocking valve (that locks up your ports) you may risk a cylinder blowout if you have a impact force on your suspension at that time.

why not figure the bursting pressure of the cylinder and add a pop-off valve between it (the cylinder) and the control valve?

does hydrolic forced articulation slow the suspension in an open state???

Originally posted by jeeper111
does hydrolic forced articulation slow the suspension in an open state???

you would think if it was a hydraulic ram mounted on top of the coilovers it wouldn't have any effect at all when in a static state.

Think about the ram just acting as a solid link.

Man, I have got to get some pics and details of the aussie rigs for you. They lower and raise their ride height depending on the event they are running, and have huge adjustment of every corner.

try and find some info today...

Seems like there is two ideas being solved here; bigdude with independent corners for forced articulation and frankie for axle/suspension compression.

Either way it seems like this could be a way around comp rules for forced articulation when used with convention suspensions and allowing the rams to float when not in use.

Good work, keep it coming.

Originally posted by bigdude
frankie- You'll need a 4-way valve, not a 3-way, in order to get directional movement in both compression and extension. I haven't been able to find a 4 way valve with a system purge yet but I'm still looking.... Basically a 4-way has an input and two outputs. You select which side you want pressure to got to (via the switch) and then it allows the other side to vent out the valve exhaust. Vice versa if you go the other direction with the valve...

link here: http://www.parker.com/parkersql/default.asp?type=2&id=37
HV Rotary Hand Valve Division: Pneumatic Division, North America Catalog:
These closed center valves have a 90° lever movement. In neutral position, the inlet is closed to pressure and outlets are closed to exhaust. These valves are recommended for stationary air cylinders, and as throttling valves for positioning air cylinders. They are not to be used on punch presses or press brakes. FEATURES:
Compact and Simple Design
4-Way, 3-Position
Rotary Disc, Direct Operated Valves
Side Porting, Bottom Mounting
Detent Action Smooth Lever Actuation
General Pneumatic Applications
Operating Pressure: 0 - 150 PSIG (0 - 10 bar)

could rams be built that could be used as control arms to create an extendable wheel base? Build them out of some pretty crazy stuff, think DOM and 1 1/2 inch shafts out of 300M or something crazy strong so that the would hold up or maybe build skids into the body of the ram that cover the shaft, at least the part that would be most likely to hit anything. It would take someone with really good knowlege of hydrolics to know how to syncronize them. otherwise you would only have them all be the same length when they were fully extended or fully compressed. I would think that a 3 link setup would work best for this type of thing because you could use 3 rams instead of four. Does anyone who knows alot about hydrolics think that there is a ram that would hold up?

Hey Frankie, why not use an accumulator on the main line, so that the air ram will be able to work with the suspension, but still raise and lower as needed. This gets rid of you bypass valve.

Originally posted by Puffdragon
Hey Frankie, why not use an accumulator on the main line, so that the air ram will be able to work with the suspension, but still raise and lower as needed. This gets rid of you bypass valve. cool idea :idea:
any more info :confused:

Originally posted by jeeper111
could rams be built that could be used as control arms to create an extendable wheel base? Build them out of some pretty crazy stuff, think DOM and 1 1/2 inch shafts out of 300M or something crazy strong so that the would hold up or maybe build skids into the body of the ram that cover the shaft, at least the part that would be most likely to hit anything. It would take someone with really good knowlege of hydrolics to know how to syncronize them. otherwise you would only have them all be the same length when they were fully extended or fully compressed. I would think that a 3 link setup would work best for this type of thing because you could use 3 rams instead of four. Does anyone who knows alot about hydrolics think that there is a ram that would hold up?
i would think mounting your links to a slide frame would be the best design with the cyl. pushing the frame in a track.
i have looked into this but it would be heavy;)

Originally posted by ausjeepoffroad.com


you would think if it was a hydraulic ram mounted on top of the coilovers it wouldn't have any effect at all when in a static state.

Think about the ram just acting as a solid link.

Man, I have got to get some pics and details of the aussie rigs for you. They lower and raise their ride height depending on the event they are running, and have huge adjustment of every corner.

try and find some info today... ok i hear you but i wont >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>




























































pics:D ;)

here is my crayola drawing of a ram and cantilever design. This would keep it light, and easy to adjust. But you could not adjust one wheel at a time. Might work, and it would be fairly cheap.

Originally posted by Puffdragon
here is my crayola drawing of a ram and cantilever design. This would keep it light, and easy to adjust. But you could not adjust one wheel at a time. Might work, and it would be fairly cheap. i was thinking this guy is real smart then i saw you are from texas:flipoff2:
looks good :p
thanks for the info;)

let me think about it for a few Frankie, and i will let you know what can be done with the accumulator.

I only live in texas. I think outside the state lines though!!:flipoff2:

Ok frankie, My Brain kicked in. Here is what you do. You have one air tank, for the front and rear rams. That line goes to a regulator for safety. Then from there, it splits at a t fitting into two lines. (one line front axle the other rear axle). At this point we are only plumbing one axle, so the below would have to be duplicated for the rear off one of the two lines from the regulator.

To review, now you have a pressure supply, that is regualted. From this point, you would have a single pole pnematic swith(on off only), to another t fitting giving you two lines out of the switch Now you would go with both lines to a pair of ARB electric solinoids or similar. Then the lines proceeds to each end of the Air ram respectivly

Now, the two front axle solinoids, would be wired to a three way switch giving you the ability to turn the solinoids on one at a time, but never at the same time. This gives you selectabiltiy from raising the truck, and lowering the truck.

When the switch is in the neutral position, both solinoids are vented to atmosphere. But once the switch is thrown one way or the other, a single solinoid will direct pressure to that side of the ram, while the other is still venting to atmosphere.

Now with the previous pnematic switch in the line, you can raise/lower the suspension to desired height. Then once the three way solinoid switch is returned to neutral after the obstical is passed, the system will return to normal ride height.

Ok, did you follow that. I will try to make a schematic as soon as possible.


PS I scrapped the acummulator design, as it is not needed unless you want the ram to be more compliant to the suspension.

Another Crayola drawing. this is a quick mock up, so there may be errors.

Originally posted by frankie finland

good deal mate those squirls can be wankers ya no .
pics!!!!!!!!:D


the squirrels are always furiously masturbating, then they gather thier nuts and play with them for six months

BJ - help me out with some info here, you know the rigs I am talking about better than me.

Only pic I can find and it is worthless - but will get you thinking about what the hell is going on with the rear diff :Dhttp://www.orp.com.au/Tuff%20Truck/RIMG0052.JPG

what in the hell did that axle come from:eek:

Originally posted by Puffdragon
Another Crayola drawing. this is a quick mock up, so there may be errors.

That's what I was thinking more or less but for both rear corners. It's nice to see it in a diagram.

I know 500 lbs may not be enough force to lift a wheel/tire off the ground and hang it in the air, but it should be enough to raise/lower the suspension at the corners I believe. I have about 700 lbs of unsprung weight out back and that could be an over estimate, so raising it up or lowering it with ~1000 lbs of pressure should be good as long as the shackle is in free swing and I'm not trying to bend the springs. Another reason I've been thinking about this is because it will allow me to stabilize or solidify the rear suspension on some verticals. That could help to eliminate some of the famous hop that leaf springs experience. I am interested in your air over hydraulic cylinders but have no clue about them so I'll do some research and if you have some links please post up. I liked the air cylinder idea because I already have OBA, I don't want to screw with hydraulics, and the aircylinders are light at ~20 lbs each. I also need to look into cylinde blow out becase that is something that slipped my mind.

It's ~$60/cylinder and maybe $30 in valves per corner. Total cost with hoses/fittings will be under $250. I figure I might just try it for that and if it doesn't work, oh well that's just 20 cases of beer I'll have to skip....

BTW cruiserrg that valve you linked is pimp. Similar to ones I'd found but it appears to vent the system when the lever is vertical, just what i was looking for (I think)

Good ideas guys..

Parker was brought up as a MFR, and Ive worked with parker pistons and valves before, there nice.

12V contorlled valves are the way to go, youd only need two electical togle switches mounted in that dash one for the front axle up down or open, one for the rear up down or open.

The valves will be expensive, our little micro king 3-way valve ran like $25 and thats a TINY valve compared to what youd need.

Cool project idea..

Originally posted by ashmanjeepXJ
12V contorlled valves are the way to go, youd only need two electical togle switches mounted in that dash one for the front axle up down or open, one for the rear up down or open.

The valves will be expensive, our little micro king 3-way valve ran like $25 and thats a TINY valve compared to what youd need.

Cool project idea..

What would be the problem with lever actuated manual valves? Granted electric would be easier/cooler but I'm looking to avoid electrics all together for simplicity sake.

Also are the standard valves 12V? I'm failing to see designations on a lot of the electric valves I'm finding.

Originally posted by frankie finland
what in the hell did that axle come from:eek:

I believe it uses a cv or birfield type joint right at the side gears of the diff - then the shafts run down at an angle with another misalignment joint at the knuckle - IIRC it uses rockwell outers and maybe a nissan patrol center section (not totally sure what diff is though)

Very similar to running a pair of driveshaft out the the wheel ends except the builder made some trick machined tubes to cover them up... It really needs a high steer system though (tie rod is very near the lower edge of the diff :( )

It was discussed on the board a while back but may have faded away...

Not quite redneck but very cool! all the benefits of an IFS system (center clearence) and non of the drawbacks of a portal housing (no drop box to bang at the wheel ends)

Matt

As for your ideas I think flow rates - either air or oil will be the main issue to overcome...

draw backs of portals? I have yet to find any real draw backs on my 404's The reduction hubs are completly encased in the wheel, the only things that hit the ground are the tubes and diff, and thats 20" away from anything. Portal boxes outside the wheel are a bad idea! What was avalanche thinking!!

could rams be built that could be used as control arms to create an extendable wheel base?
Yes, like this: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=109238&highlight=adjustable+wheelbase

Probably deserves a different thread, since these guys are talking more about forced articulation, but here's a couple of pics.

Extended:
http://www.4x4wire.com/events/2003/bajarocks/neilpile1.jpg
Contracted:
http://www.4x4wire.com/events/2003/bajarocks/neillead1.jpg

Randii (digging the straps on the bonnet)

Originally posted by bigdude

What would be the problem with lever actuated manual valves? Granted electric would be easier/cooler but I'm looking to avoid electrics all together for simplicity sake.

Also are the standard valves 12V? I'm failing to see designations on a lot of the electric valves I'm finding.


you could use 2 electrical togle switches each with three internal switches, up down and center so will have 6 wires in back of each toggle. What do they call those, 6 pole toggles or 3 pole toggles?? Mount them in an easy location. With manual valves you would need 4 switches (is that correct?) and would be much more difficult to mount and make easy to access with those 8 air lines. would use more line and be more prone to failure in the long lines.

I believe 12V is standard, thats what I found and have used....

$250 as a coast estimate is like saying you find d60 fronts for $250, cant say you cant do it that cheep but most likely will cost more...youll need alot of monstergarage "freebie" style parts to hit $250.

This little valve setup for a SMALL Parker piston spring return, Parker micro king 3way valve, and a 2 stage regulator to run off CO2 for a robot project, with all the hardware cost $250 for what you see minus the 14V batterie, and bigger parts will most likely cost more...

I also think CO2 would be a better Pressure source then an air compressor and two large air tanks. For small and light thats what youd want...The picture shows a Air compressore line as a test air source for the regulator initial setup.

All this stuff would add up to be really heavy, but I like the idea and have been working with it.

I think that mounting a dual action air ram to the center of the axle would be great for lifting the belly off stuff, or pulling the front and/or rear down when needed.

To make the control VERY simple why not just use 2 3way valves per cylinder.

Each 3 way valve ( brass kind with lever handle ) has 3 ports
1-air supply in
2-air supply out
3-air reversed from 2 to a dump line

Finding room for all 4 valves would suck though...

The cool thing with using the winch is that it is most likely there already and isn't doing much. The only thing I worry about is having the winch pulling the front down and then needing to use it also. I guess that you could have a stap hold the front down if you had it already pulled down with the winch.

For testing or to keep things real cheap & easy (=redneck) couldn't you use "puffdragon's" basic cantilever design with a simple bottle jack in place of the ram/cylinder? You could even incorporate tabs for different heights that you could run a bolt or pin through to lock it inplace. I really like the basic simplicity of his design. The suspention will work independantly of the ride height contol system. It seems to follow the KISS principal perfectly.

Originally posted by Puffdragon
Another Crayola drawing. this is a quick mock up, so there may be errors.

I was looking at that diagram, thats close to what Im thinking...

Would the ARB valves be normally open or closed, they are a 3way valve right?

I believe we want 3 settings on the pistion, pushing down, pullign up, and at rest with the lower hose connected to the upper hose at equalibrium... i think your diagram could not do the "at rest" position because it would have air trapped in each side of the piston. The piston would return to ride height when the release valve blows, but the valve automatically re-closes quickly after the release, with the valve closed it would be stiff, not relaxed, the trapped air in the piston would resist suspension drop and compression. the valves Ive seen only open for a short time then close after the release, so would drop to ride height then trap the air in the piston.

how about this...

do the valves in a series parell configuration. useing three normally closed 3way valves.

with power to #1, toggle up, it will one open and will "push down"
With power to #2, toggle middle, #1 will release pressure return to ride height, and will open #2 "at rest"
With power to #3, toggle switch down, will close #2, and will "pull up" the piston...

what do you think?
or am I wrong...

Originally posted by ausjeepoffroad.com
BJ - help me out with some info here, you know the rigs I am talking about better than me.

Only pic I can find and it is worthless - but will get you thinking about what the hell is going on with the rear diff :Dhttp://www.orp.com.au/Tuff%20Truck/RIMG0052.JPG

many squirrels, spend many hours building top secret machines, whilst other more redneck squirrels masturbate quietly in the comfort of thier own homes.

Banana boys banana diff, and his single ended ram is no match for my rear steer.

Seriously though, I know absolutely nothing, but I wish I could help you out.

In fact thinking about this more, Onall4 (the yellow rig pictured, now has a coil and ram attached to the top of the a-frame, but it is hydraulic and not air driven, and it does a similar thing to what frankie is talking about, but it is only on the rear not the front.

The rear diff is a rockwell with 40 splines and 300m axles, and arb airlocker and rear steer....along with other pieces and 37 spline at the diff......

But it is totally unrelated to this topic.....

show us some pics frankie!!

I was under the assumption, that the ARB valves were open unless the locker was pressurized, but it makes since that it would close to keep crap out. But I would think still, that it has a pop off or something. but even so, if it did lock a volume of air on both sides of the cylinder, the pressure would be so minimal, that the air piston would not affect the normal function of the primary suspension. That i think is the beauty of this over hydro, is that it will always be compliant to the preimary suspension.

Just my 2

Originally posted by ashmanjeepXJ


I was looking at that diagram, thats close to what Im thinking...

Would the ARB valves be normally open or closed, they are a 3way valve right?

I believe we want 3 settings on the pistion, pushing down, pullign up, and at rest with the lower hose connected to the upper hose at equalibrium... i think your diagram could not do the "at rest" position because it would have air trapped in each side of the piston. The piston would return to ride height when the release valve blows, but the valve automatically re-closes quickly after the release, with the valve closed it would be stiff, not relaxed, the trapped air in the piston would resist suspension drop and compression. the valves Ive seen only open for a short time then close after the release, so would drop to ride height then trap the air in the piston.

how about this...

do the valves in a series parell configuration. useing three normally closed 3way valves.

with power to #1, toggle up, it will one open and will "push down"
With power to #2, toggle middle, #1 will release pressure return to ride height, and will open #2 "at rest"
With power to #3, toggle switch down, will close #2, and will "pull up" the piston...

what do you think?
or am I wrong...

Originally posted by Puffdragon
I was under the assumption, that the ARB valves were open unless the locker was pressurized, but it makes since that it would close to keep crap out. But I would think still, that it has a pop off or something. but even so, if it did lock a volume of air on both sides of the cylinder, the pressure would be so minimal, that the air piston would not affect the normal function of the primary suspension. That i think is the beauty of this over hydro, is that it will always be compliant to the preimary suspension.

Just my 2



How much are the ARB valves and how much is a comparable PArker part?

jsut wondering...

Originally posted by ashmanjeepXJ



you could use 2 electrical togle switches each with three internal switches, up down and center so will have 6 wires in back of each toggle. What do they call those, 6 pole toggles or 3 pole toggles?? Mount them in an easy location. With manual valves you would need 4 switches (is that correct?) and would be much more difficult to mount and make easy to access with those 8 air lines. would use more line and be more prone to failure in the long lines.

I believe 12V is standard, thats what I found and have used....

$250 as a coast estimate is like saying you find d60 fronts for $250, cant say you cant do it that cheep but most likely will cost more...youll need alot of monstergarage "freebie" style parts to hit $250.

This little valve setup for a SMALL Parker piston spring return, Parker micro king 3way valve, and a 2 stage regulator to run off CO2 for a robot project, with all the hardware cost $250 for what you see minus the 14V batterie, and bigger parts will most likely cost more...

I also think CO2 would be a better Pressure source then an air compressor and two large air tanks. For small and light thats what youd want...The picture shows a Air compressore line as a test air source for the regulator initial setup. :idea: co2 how long would that last????

Originally posted by newt
For testing or to keep things real cheap & easy (=redneck) couldn't you use "puffdragon's" basic cantilever design with a simple bottle jack in place of the ram/cylinder? You could even incorporate tabs for different heights that you could run a bolt or pin through to lock it inplace. I really like the basic simplicity of his design. The suspention will work independantly of the ride height contol system. It seems to follow the KISS principal perfectly.
the system we are trying to get is for on the fly use . like an air or electric lockers or cuting brakes and so on.

Originally posted by BJ On Roids


many squirrels, spend many hours building top secret machines, whilst other more redneck squirrels masturbate quietly in the comfort of thier own homes.

Banana boys banana diff, and his single ended ram is no match for my rear steer.

Seriously though, I know absolutely nothing, but I wish I could help you out.

In fact thinking about this more, Onall4 (the yellow rig pictured, now has a coil and ram attached to the top of the a-frame, but it is hydraulic and not air driven, and it does a similar thing to what frankie is talking about, but it is only on the rear not the front.

The rear diff is a rockwell with 40 splines and 300m axles, and arb airlocker and rear steer....along with other pieces and 37 spline at the diff......

But it is totally unrelated to this topic.....

show us some pics frankie!!
the top secret stuff is going on with the buggy right now but maybe we can sneak a pick in a day or three:D
baaaaaaa sguirls masterbating:laughing: LOLOFAL !!!!

Originally posted by Puffdragon
I was under the assumption, that the ARB valves were open unless the locker was pressurized, but it makes since that it would close to keep crap out. But I would think still, that it has a pop off or something. but even so, if it did lock a volume of air on both sides of the cylinder, the pressure would be so minimal, that the air piston would not affect the normal function of the primary suspension. That i think is the beauty of this over hydro, is that it will always be compliant to the preimary suspension.

Just my 2

but will air over react as quick as air ?????

No, I did not mean it to sound like it should be air over hydro, I was stating that the Air system would be superior over the hydro system. The air would be compliant to the suspension, but if you use hydro, you would need to use an accumulator to keep the hydro ram from being rock hard, and this would add to weight and cost. The air system could be fairly light if made properly, and would have a min. of parts, and you would not have hydralic fluid to mess with.

Originally posted by Puffdragon
No, I did not mean it to sound like it should be air over hydro, I was stating that the Air system would be superior over the hydro system. The air would be compliant to the suspension, but if you use hydro, you would need to use an accumulator to keep the hydro ram from being rock hard, and this would add to weight and cost. The air system could be fairly light if made properly, and would have a min. of parts, and you would not have hydralic fluid to mess with. ;)

Originally posted by frankie finland

the top secret stuff is going on with the buggy right now but maybe we can sneak a pick in a day or three:D
baaaaaaa sguirls masterbating:laughing: LOLOFAL !!!!


baaaaa??? was that your sheep? and what is LOLOFAL? is it redneck code for fornicating with sheep? :flipoff2: you've picked up some bad habits frankie :flipoff2:

Originally posted by BJ On Roids



baaaaa??? was that your sheep? and what is LOLOFAL? is it redneck code for fornicating with sheep? :flipoff2: you've picked up some bad habits frankie :flipoff2: LOLOFA,
LAGHING OUT LOUD ON FLOOR FROM ALABAMA :flipoff2:
FAWKIN SQUIRL WANKER

Hey Frankie? Ever seen those electric lift cylinders the car guys use to open trunks and such? I was planning on using these at all 4 corners and attaching my limit straps to them...that is until I got some prices on them, I think they were about $150-$200 ea. These power in AND out. So, maybe use some bumpstops and a really short limiting strap, or perhaps a slider/shackle type of thing? Nope. That wouldn't work, axle has to be able to move freely. Hmm.....