This in in the Jeep Tech section because it's aimed at the Jeep community, with their opinions in mind...

Ok, so it hit me, why not make on a VERY large scale a vehicle ACTUALLY suited to wheeling?

The idea is as follows: regardless of what vehicle you buy (CJ, YJ, TJ, 4Runner, etc) you end up replacing half the parts anyway. Essentially, you pay for everything twice. All suspension components, axles, a lot of the drivetrain, etc, etc...

Here's the idea: build it so that you have to do minimal mods to get it in 'wheeling form.

Off the assembly line it comes out as follows:

Longarm coil (coilover?) suspension

Something along the power lines of the 4.0L or a GM 4.3 (about 200 HP, lots of low end torque).

Axles that will actually hold up all the way to 35-38" tires (think D60 or 35 spline, Big U-Jointed something)

Beefy Granny tranny (a la NV4500)

A non-chaindriven, non slip yoke T case

Something like a 100"+/- wheelbase

63/64 inch wide axles

Same body width as a Wrangler

The idea is that you avoid the $70k hummer by keeping everything but the running gear really spartan. No carpet, no stereo, MAYBE decent seats, but you get the idea.

Off the lot it would only run like 33's, but the only thing you'd have to change to run 37's would be the coils/shocks and re-adjust the control arms.

I figure that between the hardcore (actually going to use it) market along with the poser (like most people that buy hummers now) market, you could make enough to drive prices down and get lots of aftermarket support.

What about Gov approval, smog, etc??? Build on a large enough scale to get wholesale rates on everything, but somewhere in the volume of guys liek Saleen and Panoz, the custom vehicle guys that make less than like 20,000 units a year...

I dunno, it seems like a cool way to support a wheeling community when the TJ gets replaced with a IFS/IRS POS.

So, what do you think????

i have thought of this too. why not make a off-road edition 1ton jeep tj? coils, dana60's, 35's, larger wheel openings, full cage 4.7L v8, auto or nv4500 etc. i really think they would be suprised at how many would sell. look at all the people who but them and swap all the stuff in right away. not to mention all the posers who would but them just because. infact that is where i think the most of thier sales would come into play because you know as well as i do there are alot of people who buy rigs just because of what it says on the side or what edition something is. granted the price range would be around $30k but they would sell.

Why hasn't it been done? Because you can't make money doing it. Plain and simple.

You need volume to make money with anything put together on an assembly line. You'd need much more volume than the few thousand units you'd sell. Especially if you're only selling them for $30g.

You'd need new tooling to make the axle brackets. $$$
You'd need to train those individuals doing the human part of the assembly work $
You'd need to reprogram the robotics doing the automated assembly $$$
You'd need to market the thing $$$$$$$

What's your idea of "VERY large scale"? I seriously doubt you'd sell 10,000 units. And that's not a huge run.

Companies would never do it because they would probably never break even, although I do like the concept.

Dittto on the above production and tooling issues....
One other thought is that the Fed is bound to fawk with something like this as far as safety, or fuel economy or something.

ANd cmon lets be real...of all of the many thousands(?) of production TJ's made how many actually are used offroad.

"WE" are a very small and insignificant market segment unfortunately.

MJ

Besides, who wants a bunch of inexperienced people on the trails who bought their rigs instead of building them, don't know how to drive them, and can't fix 'em when they break down on the trail? (which is inevitable)

Actually, Currie does something similar to what you're talking about (sells turn-key TJs equipped with SYE, D44s, mild lift and 33-inch tires). I think this is a bad, bad thing because you end up with inexperienced yuppies who have no idea how to drive a rig that capable. They have no tools, no spare parts, and no knowledge. They have no idea what they're getting themselves into out on the trails and will be be parked in your way when they bust a U-joint, standing there all helpless on the cell phone calling Triple A saying, "Um, could you please send a tow truck to Little Sluice on the 'con, my Jeep seems to be broken."

No thanks.


FWIW, IMHO, $.02, and all that happy sheeyit,

Jake Harsha

It seems to me that the only chance you would have of doing this would be to sell a large number of the vehicles to DOD/Forest Service etc... If it wasn't for that, the Hummer wouldn't even be produced for Civilians and the only reason it is is because the Military buys enough of them at a high enough price that they can play around and build luxury ones too... It seems the chances of beating the big companies out on a military contract would be very slim (but has been done in small numbers, ie. Chenworth dune buggies).

One of the local dealerships that has their own Jeep Club will install a Teraflex lift, 33's, and any accessory you want when you buy a Jeep. They'll even finance the cost and warranty all of the work since it was sold to you with mod's already on it. I still don't see a whole lot of them being sold though...


See ya on the trails,

Jeremy
http://kee.dnsq.org/
'99 XJ and a Project YJ Rock Buggy

Originally posted by Jakesteramalamajama
Besides, who wants a bunch of inexperienced people on the trails who bought their rigs instead of building them, don't know how to drive them, and can't fix 'em when they break down on the trail? (which is inevitable)

Actually, Currie does something similar to what you're talking about (sells turn-key TJs equipped with SYE, D44s, mild lift and 33-inch tires). I think this is a bad, bad thing because you end up with inexperienced yuppies who have no idea how to drive a rig that capable. They have no tools, no spare parts, and no knowledge. They have no idea what they're getting themselves into out on the trails and will be be parked in your way when they bust a U-joint, standing there all helpless on the cell phone calling Triple A saying, "Um, could you please send a tow truck to Little Sluice on the 'con, my Jeep seems to be broken."

No thanks.


FWIW, IMHO, $.02, and all that happy sheeyit,

Jake Harsha

Wouldn't it be great to have something like Lloyd's Open Form (marine salvage laws), where you can claim salvage rights when people like that ask for a tow... You tow 'em, it's your's! ;)

Real Rigs are BUILT not BOUGHT.

PERIOD

Axle too wide--> wouldn't be legal

Tires too big--> wouldn't be legal

gas milage would suck compared to stock vehicles...govt gets pissed about that.

has to have airbags, antilock, all the other crap that new vehicles have, etc...


And like it was said before...Real vehicles are built not bought..

I agree that it would be hard to fund a project like this because the breakeven volume would be very high. (Not to mention the liability & warranty issues).

I've got a better idea.... How about if Jeep sells TJ's (or if they still sold CJ's) as partial builds..ie without alot of the shit you'll chuck anyways. Fawk the axles, fawk the tires, fawk the suspension, fawk the shiny paint. I know its not feasible, but its a thought. Leave all that shit that I don't need at the factory and send the basics to my house at a deep discount so I can put the shit together in my garage. Hopefully the savings would leave you enough cash for some 60's and 39's and of course some olive drap shit canz.

Make to order.

you mean if you get all this breaking shit will become a thing of the past.... NOOOOO I REFUSE!!!! I WANT TO BREAK SHIT!!!

Campbell Ent. and the sniper are two examples of just this in a way. I went so far as to get a buisness license to do just this but it is realy hard to make enough $$$ on each rig because there just isn't that big of a market. To sell one of these you will need to find a hard core guy with the $$$ but not the skill to build their own. For most of us out there we look at something and sey I can build that if I wanted to and either don't want to build that or don't have the $$$ to build it at once so we piece it together. I love the idea but don't see any real $$$ in it.

So people are saying that the idea would never work.

Isn't this the whole reason they use concept cars.
they get together build it for the shows and see what kind of interest it draws.

They make all these interesting looking concept cars that draw lots of attention some of them go into production some of them don't.

I don't want to go on the record as saying it would never work just saying I wouldn't quit my job and morgage my home to do it because I doub't you will be able to make a living building them. If there was a big market for them I would think Currie would be selling his little Piss Ant's since he has the funding to build them and the market to sell them.

I'm thinking something along the lines of a Hummer. LIke someone said, you need to get a DOD or forest service contract. OK, then build it with them in mind. That's why i said heavy duty drivetrain and 33's. That's a vehicle that works for A LOT of people: Ranchers, Forst Service, Military, Lifegaurds, you name it. The idea is that you build a vehicle that the masses can purchase that happens to have all the right key parts already there.

I was thinking that you could use drivetrain parts that are already in production so there isn't an absurd R&D price. Basically, the only really unique parts are the frame/suspension and the sheetmetal. I was thinking of a body somewhere between the TJ and HUmmer (but not those :rainbow: "Landrunner" kits). Big wheel openings that could accomaodate big tires, little to no overhangs, you get the picute. (I have sketches that I made when I should have been taking notes in class).

In all honesty, I bet you could get the desired volume if you marketed it right and came out big.

Again, the concept isn't a wheeling EXCLUSIVE vehicle, but one that lots of people could buy that "just so happens" to already have everything you would swap in...

As far as "build not bought," the only reason people say that is because you DO have to build a real rig for it to be a real rig. If it comes with all the crap that you would otherwise ahve to build, then you're buying what you would have built anyway.;

I'm thinking Avalanche engineering is already doing this almost:D

ya payin for stuff twice sucks, heh thats why I buy complete piece of shit rigs for cheap that everthing needs to be replaced anyway. also theres alot of 1 ton trucks that are pretty much ready to wheel with a lift and tires.

its tough to do that. avalanche has the market for that. gotta pay to play. to "do -it yourself" call up currie and dynatrac. they could sell you a pair of 60's for a previously purchased truck for 8k roughly, pay someone to install a v8 and beefy t case and tranny and driveshafts, get someone to install your custom or exotic suspension. you hadnle the install of lights, a winch, and maybe a CB, and your ready to hit the trails.......i've seen and read about this being done a few times. most are sold within 2 years though i bet ya anything. the hearts not in it or they figure out that a $50-60k badass truck isnt shit without a capable driver behind the wheel.

i think building your truck is part of the sport more than it is part of the expense. whats the fun knowing you dont have any fond memories of building the truck you drive, but the guys who put it together do. No learning experience involved.

Extremely specialized concepts can never be sold on a large scale. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea but it just isn't going to happen. Everybody has already mentioned money, but look at the more personal aspects. Everybody is going to end up having the same thing. What's the point? 60s are going to be overkill for most of the buyers (Jeep isn't even using Dana anymore starting in what, 2002?) and lets not forget the complete lack of driving skill. I've seen it countless time, a bought rig out on the trail with the driver spinning tires and getting nowhere. Along comes a relatively stock truck with a good driver and they get past the obstacle no problem. Joe idiot is better off in their grocery getter.

Building is part of the fun! How many hours have you spent in the shop wrenching on your junk? How many times have you sat at work sketching out some new idea? Buying turnkey...no thanks. I can guarantee you that it won't be cheap either. 30k is dreaming.

Bottom line: Build your own rig :flipoff2:

There are a few things wrong with the idea.


Half the fun of wheeling is building your own rig.
Everyone has a different idea of what the perfect rig should be.
The vast majority of wheelers are not going to take out a huge loan on a vehicle just to bash it up on the rocks.
You wouldn't sell very many of them and you would go broke in a year.


RR3

Just to put out some first hand experience on this subject, I don't beleive a full production rig for recreational wheelin would would work. Although we do have Sniper, and buggy jigs, not one of them has ever been a cookie cutter of another. In apperence they all seem similer, but each is unique. With very little exeption our clients are former wheelers that have spent alot of money on a base rig, to later figure out is cheaper to have a purpose built rig designed for them. I sure that some loss of hands on satisfaction may be lost, however they forget all about that when there new machine kicks butt. Plus they get to pick out the color. Clifton :jeep:

Dean & Mo are right. Yes sure vehicles like Sonni Hoeneger makes (Scorpion) are being built and marketed now. The number of people getting in line to step up to the plate and buy one is pretty small. That's why in reality I sell more Steal Horse stuff than Avalanche High Mark type axles.

Well, for me, half the fun of having a jeep is building it.. the other half is wheeling it. I enjoy doing mods to the jeep and seeing how well they work. I know that hard work pays off, and I wouldnt want to be so lazy as to have a vehicle BUILT for me. As far as suspension goes, COILS suck.. coilovers, rule. But.. I like my plain and simple leafs thank you very much, now all I need to do is get them into SOA form.
Just my Dollar... dang inflation.
Scott :grinpimp:<><