In a December 2002 joint press release RRCA and CAL-Rocks declaired they were all going to abide by the same set of rules for the 2003 season "for RCAA National Championships, CALROCS, NARRCA, and RCRC Regional Championships" which are now published on their respective RRCA and Cal-ROCS web sites.

In the Modified-Stock section ...

"• All OEM tub/cab configurations are approved for competition. Aftermarket tubs must be OEM width and RCAA approved.
• No cutting of floor is allowed with the following exemptions.
The center section of the body is approved for cutting & raising to allow drivetrain clearance directly over drivetrain components. This does not include axles or axle shafts. Cutting and reboxing for the clearance of non suspension items, including tires, shocks and fuel tank is permitted.
Tubs/cabs may be cut along the bottom (rocker) area of the vehicle."

In a phone call yesterday to Cal-ROCKS Pres. Rich, he flatly stated that Cal-ROCKS would "absoulutely not allow 'dove tailing' (i.e. pushing the rear side panels toward the center) the rear of Modified Stock vehicles."
Left unsaid is the assumption that floorboard chopping to boat-side the rocker panels will also not be allowed.

Yet, in Reno yesterday, both the Sisson entry with a severly dove-tailed rear and the Standish entry with a severly boat-side rockers choped through three inches of floorboard on each side sailed through RRCA Modified-Stock tech inspection.

Sisson
http://www.pirate4x4.com/albums/album06/aas.jpg

Standish
http://www.pirate4x4.com/albums/album09/aae.sized.jpg

Rich said he was heading up to Reno today...
I think he's in for a shock and a showdown with Ranch, the RRCA head honcho.

And for the rest of us Modified-Stock hopefuls ... :confused: ... go figger!

I like the fact that... as I read those new rules, tubbing will be allowed... thats good because I plan on do that to my trail rig, but I want to be able to run Stock Mod should I wish...

No need for dove tailing, and I alread nixed the raisign the rocker idea after playign with it for a bit....


go get them Big Rich!!

Doesn't the Skyjacker Jeep run an LS1 motor and Dana 60s front and rear? I'd be more concerned about that in "Stock Mod" than the sheetmetal modifications, but you are right Jaffer, rules are rules.

The Sisson entry is dove-tailed? I think I can see the bend but not sure.

Got a pic from the rear of the rig?

Jaffer, good points.

I want to run stock modified, but can't due to the rear springs being shackled front and rear. This is not near an advantage with my 5's wheelbase compared to everyones 95+ inch wheelbases and the way courses are designed for the longer wheelbases. I think the stock modified rules need a lot more work.

Hopefully they start getting stricter with this, looking through pictures I can hardly tell mod stock from the other classes. Rock crawling is going the way of NMCA drag racing pro street cars used to be limited to be back halved, now they are pro mods without the wings..... Hopefully this is capped off before mod-stock is just smaller tires.

Sissons vehicle is definitely "dove tailed". We ran right before/after them at UROC in Farmington last weekend. The Sissons are great guys.

I'll tell you something though---there's a whole lot of people, at least in UROC, that are a bit tired of spending time and money to comply with the rules, only to find that Joe Shmoe wasn't required to comply with the rules(BTW, I believe the Sissons comply 100% with UROC rules). It's a WHOLE lot better than it used to be, but it's still somewhat of a problem in UROC, and apparently in RCAA as well. I think it comes down to the fact that they just don't want to send anybody home. There's still a certain level of comraderie that it seems is difficult for some inpecting officials to cross, sending someone packing after they drove 3, 6, 8, 12, 20 hours.

With the purses getting bigger, and more and more sponsors coming on board, they are going to have a whole mess of lawsuits on their hands unless they start being anal about the rules. I don't give a rip who you are, how far you drove, or how much time and money you spent----if you don't comply, you should have a limited amount of time to comply, or you can't compete. All the other competitors may say it isn't that big of a deal-----as long as THEY are higher in the standings than the offender. When someone uses their golden tongue to squeeze through tech with a violation, and then wins the money you would have won had they not been allowed to compete, all of a sudden it isn't okay any more.

It's sad that it's come to this, but hey, competition isn't your weekly trailride with your buddies any more. People are putting a lot of time and money on the line, and MOST of them hope to win at least some of it back. If not, they would be out on the trail instead of dodging cones.


Of course, I can say all this, because I don't drive any more, I just spot:D

Originally posted by NE-RokToy
Hopefully they start getting stricter with this, looking through pictures I can hardly tell mod stock from the other classes... Hopefully this is capped off before mod-stock is just smaller tires.

Just a note--I believe all of the top 5 Legend competitors in Farmington(we were 4th) took at least 4, and some 5 Unlimited lines. That's half of the obstacles. The guy that took 2nd used to run Unimited in both RCAA(so I'm told), and UROC, but bumped down to the Legend class because the Unlimited class was "too hard"(his words, and I would add "to win"). I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that---hell, that's why we're there--more so, I'm just saying that for a Legend competitor to win in the Legend class, he has to take Unlimited lines, which he may or may not have designed his vehicle for. I actually enjoy it, because it adds a new level of strategy. You used to know that '0' was the best score you could get(along with spotter rides), now -110 is the best score you can get, but it's most likely not feasable. You used to know that the Legend lines were fairly drivable, and you wouldn't risk a rollover on every obstacle. Now that's gone out the window, and you're goal is more to take as many Unlimited lines as you can without any 40's. A whole lot more risk is involved now. You are encouraged to take lines you probably didn't design your vehicle for. No, you don't HAVE to, but if you want to win you probably will. I haven't read the RCAA stock modified rules completely, so I can't comment on the differences there.

Anyway, I think it's fun and interesting to watch the sport develop. :)

Originally posted by nobody20
Jaffer, good points.

I want to run stock modified, but can't due to the rear springs being shackled front and rear. This is not near an advantage with my 5's wheelbase compared to everyones 95+ inch wheelbases and the way courses are designed for the longer wheelbases.

If the courses were really set up for longer wheelbase rigs, then how come a spring under CJ5 keeps winning???


Just something to think about while your making excuses:rolleyes:

The rules do say "OEM tub/cab configurations are approved", skinnying the front (grill) is talked about (not allowed) as are the floorboards (no cutting) in the middle.
The Sissons and at least one other regional team saw a loophole in the wording and took advantage of it as nothing was said about the rear section.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that since the front and the middle (floorboards) of the vehicle are addressed. The floor boards are not molested when dove-tailing a SWB Jeep tub.
And Ranch, the Pres. of RCAA did in fact verbally approved this modification prior to it being done with Garrett and Matt Sisson's rig.

Based on this, and immediately after the UROC meet here, we tore down the tac welded cage on my work in progress and have completed a dove-tail job and associated rear bumper narrowing just on the assurance from Ranch that it would be RCAA Mod-Stock legal. This modification passing Mod-Stock tech yesterday in Reno reaffirms it's legality, or at least acceptance (with my great relief on such a gamble) within RCAA, no matter what Rich of Cal-ROCS says was the intent in wording of the rules.

What does bother me, however, was yesterday's blatant disregard for the floorboard and rocker panel rules. I just can see no justification for allowing that entry to violate the explicit wording of those rule provisions.

The dropping of Pro-ROCS "like suspension for frame" rule very late at the start of this season and now this fiasco is enough to make me fell like I am being jerked around ... at the expense of personal time and $$$.
As I said earlier ... :confused: ... go figger!

I'm eyeing the outer edges of my TJ tub's floor boards now ... wondering just how much to try and get away with! :flipoff2:

the rules are there to abide by and to bend all you can w/ out breaking them. We moved the sides in on Sisson's and Ted Grady's rig 2 weeks ago. It works sweet. In tight leaning turns it keeps you from hanging up w/ your corners of the body.

First Off:

Double shackles are allowed in the mod stock class.......

Next: inner fenders must be retained, meaning rear, that means no dovetailing as I see. My conversion with Ranch (as always is civil and friendly), about the boated sides and dovetailing, found us in agreement, both have been or will be told that they must change to conform with the rules or be required to start running the other class.

If anyone is wondering about what would be legal and what won't be, if it's not spelled out well enough, please call and ask, so as to eliminate any and all confusion.

Rich

PS...at the regional events there are somethings that I (CalROCS/NARRCA) will be more relaxed about, due to many of the competitors being new and not having competition designed rigs. If you are wondering about these items please call or e-mail me.

Originally posted by Big Rich
...
Next: inner fenders must be retained, meaning rear, that means no dovetailing as I see. My conversion with Ranch (as always is civil and friendly), about the boated sides and dovetailing, found us in agreement, both have been or will be told that they must change to conform with the rules or be required to start running the other class.

Now you are changing the wording of your own rules here, Rich.:rolleyes:
Your published rules state "Rear inner fenders must be maintained."
They do NOT say "retained" as you state here.

THAT leaves a LOT of play in the wording ...

From the Websters Dictionary:

"re·tain
Pronunciation: ri-'tAn
2 : to hold secure or intact
synonym see KEEP"

"main·tain
Pronunciation: mAn-'tAn, m&n-
1 : to keep in an existing state (as of repair, efficiency, or validity)"

"Retain" means to hold intact.
'Maintain" can mean to preserve it's exhistance and function.

Nice try ... everyone loses ... :p

One or two words do come to my mind though ... "snake pit".

Well I have a problem I guess w/ the rule(dovetailing). I'm sure the Sisson's will too. Since they just took second place. What does it do to enhance a jeeps performance. It really just keeps the corner of the body off the rocks. There was a lot of work that went into the Sisson's rig. Are you saying that they might not be able to leave their body that way? You guys make the rules. We have to wait for ever to even get them. (Hince) You should have plenty of time to figure out what you want. It takes about 1 day to bend them. Let me stress bend them not break them. So it sounds like it should be addressed next year. How can a rule be changed during a series? So who can tell me if this is rumor or fact? We all know we can't get answers from RRCA in a timely manner.

I'm no expert on rules but it seems to me that it is too late to close any loopholes created by this year's rules. Once the modification has been allowed to pass tech doesn't it in effect become sanctioned?

I don't just have a problem with all this, I'M TOTALLY DISGUSTED!

Wanting to compete in both RCAA and Cal-ROCS plus Pro-ROCKS. I chose last summer to base the new rig off a TJ to keep within Pro-ROCK's "like suspension for frame" rule. I'd prefered to go with the more ideal Scrambler's wheelbase but wanted a coil suspension so a TJ it was even though the frame and body parts are 3 times more expensive to obtain.
While gathering axels and drive train components this fall and winter and holding back actual construction I anxiously awaited the new RCAA/Cal-ROCS rules due out in November yet finally posted in December.
Next, and well after the new year Bob Hazel of Pro-ROCKS, facing withering participation and a boycott for stingy payouts, tosses out his Mod-Stock "like suspension for frame" rule. Well OK I say to myself, too late to change back to a Scrambler now ...
And now with the rig only half built and already into the season two rigs show up at UROC with dove tailed rears and intending to also run them in RCAA's Mod-Stock division with Ranch's prior OK and acceptence of this intrepretation of this modification.
Attempting to keep the new rig up to date, we tear apart the already constructed cage (and many hours of work) and began dove tailing the tub.
I called Rich/Cal-ROCS on Thursday, the morning of tech inspection in Reno, about it and he said it wasn't going to fly yet when I tracked down Garrett Sisson at the Reno Hilton that evening after tech inspection he confirmed acceptence of the dove tail modification.
So, for almost a year ... I bought and imported the TJ frame in May last year ... I've done everything within reason to make sure I could compete in regional santioned Mod-Stock contests.
AND NOW YOU ARE SAYING YOU AREN'T GOING TO ALLOW IT AND WE CAN'T COMPETE IN THAT CLASS???
JUST GO HOME AND FIX IT BEFORE YOU COME BACK???
Nobody can afford to rebuild their rig every six months until you #^%*&@'s make up your minds!
BULL FAWKING $HIT !!!

You seem a little upset???

If I were you, I would have called and gotten an approval from Rich before dovetailing the tub. That would have saved you a lot of headache.

IMHO, dovetailing the back violates the whole notion of a stock-mod class. These rigs are supposed to look fairly stock, so spectators can see something that resembles their rig and people considering getting into the sport can see rigs competing that do not appear fundamentally different than their trail rigs.

Just my $.02

Originally posted by 1uglyranger
You seem a little upset???

If I were you, I would have called and gotten an approval from Rich before dovetailing the tub. That would have saved you a lot of headache.

I don't intend to participate much in Cal-ROCKS. I did intend on going to many of the RCAA events. The Pres. of RCAA was the one who authorized the modification. And he allowed it past tech.
How much more should one need?
It was hard enough for Garret to get a hold of Ranch on the phone to get an OK much less getting something in writing.
Is getting a verbal answer from Rich worth more than from Ranch?
Rich SAYS you can cut the bed and re-box for shocks but not for coil overs. Can I believe him and not have to try and get an interpretation from Ranch at RCAA to confirm?
A shock is a "suspension component". The rule is fuzzy. Is this another thing that will come back and bite me? Will I need a clarification in writing from both organization's heads before doing it, or should I take one, the other's, or need both's word for it?
:shaking:
Maybe now I'll just stretch the wheel base back where I wanted it in the first place and stick with UROC, or play with Bob H. and his 'there are no rules, rules' outfit when it comes around, then tag along with Matt and Garrett on the trails since they won't be going anywhere else either ...

Originally posted by Jaffer
Maybe now I'll just stretch the wheel base back where I wanted it in the first place and stick with UROC, or play with Bob H. and his 'there are no rules, rules' outfit when it comes around,

That sounds like your best bet. If you don't like the way they play then fuck 'em and don't give them your entrance fee.

Originally posted by Jaffer
Is getting a verbal answer from Rich worth more than from Ranch?

Rich & Ranch run two SEPARATE sanctioning bodies. In an effort to keep things consistent, they agreed to the same verbage in the offseason. Now, it appears that it's RCAA that is not holding up their end to follow the literal interpretation of the rule. From what I see, Rich is enforcing it the way it reads - and frankly, it appears he's also following the "spirit" of the rule as well.

Bottom line, if you want to compete in multiple sanctioning bodies, you're going to have to comply with the strictest one.


TEX

Originally posted by Shrock
IMHO, dovetailing the back violates the whole notion of a stock-mod class. These rigs are supposed to look fairly stock, so spectators can see something that resembles their rig and people considering getting into the sport can see rigs competing that do not appear fundamentally different than their trail rigs.

Just my $.02

No argument, and in fact, that is exactly what Rich told me on the phone as this was supposedly the intent of the writen rules ... and how I intended on building.
But now we are seeing dove-tailed and boat sided Modified-Stock rigs competing ... and winning ... in Reno.
As I said in the beginning, go figger! :confused:
I hope they get this settled ... before winter.
Excuse me now, I have to go barf ... I'm done.

I left my rear body panels stock for this reason. I think the Legends or Stock Mod class should be vehicles that can be bought and built on a limited budget and that look factory. If I had unlimited funds to build something then I would expect to be put in the unlimited class, but I do not therefore I want to compete against vehicles that are built under the same guidelines that I built mine, not someone that can pour tons of money into building a "stock mod" rig that is pushing the limits of the rules and makes the field of competitors vastly different. It does nothing but create gaps between the top competitors and everyone else that can't afford to stay on top of the leading technology. They have different classes so that competitors in each class compete with vehicles of their own catergory, creating a way to test the drivers and spotters abilities, not their wallets. Erocc has the most lienent rules on the legends class allowing almost fully tube chassis rigs to compete with those mostly stock appearing vehicles with full bodies and less than ideal components. It makes it very difficult to compete head to head with someone that built a specialty vehicle that stretches the rules to stay in a lower class. It's fine with me if you want to have a vehicle built like that but I think these vehicles need to be in another class.

There are many things in this sport that need changing until it finally gets worked out to everyones liking and this is one of those things. Think about other forms of motorsports and look at the different classes and why each was done, to keep the field of competitors for each class close toghether and to keep someone from coming in a having a distinct advantage therefore elimating the rest of the competition from having a chance. We have the most relaxed rules in any form of motorsports, be it in classes or safety, and we as a group need to work to make the future of competitive rockcrawling grow and it all starts here on the PBB with everyone that competes bringing something to the table.

Originally posted by jeepguru7
There are many things in this sport that need changing until it finally gets worked out to everyones liking

Take it from someone who's been in 4x4 competition for 15+ years. It will NEVER reach the point of being to "everyone's liking".


TEX

At least to the point where everyone that competes does so knowing that it's a level playing field. Yes their needs to be different ideas, rigs and ways of doing it, but we all need to start at the same level assuring competitors are competing against each other and not each others wallets. At least in the stock mod/legends classes. It is called unlimited for a reason.

Someday a rockcrawling sactioned body will be sued over these problems. Just think...... Sisson's rig.....30,000 for the jeep, 12,000 in cost to run thr rig, and with them the ability to win and place in the top 3( winnings?). Sponsors money and so on.... I've seen people and organizations be sued for less. Mark my words it will happen someday. The sport has got that big. Ok let it rip om me.

Originally posted by jeepguru7
Erocc has the most lienent rules on the legends class allowing almost fully tube chassis rigs to compete with those mostly stock appearing vehicles with full bodies and less than ideal components. It makes it very difficult to compete head to head with someone that built a specialty vehicle that stretches the rules to stay in a lower class.

How do you know that it makes it difficult to go head to head??? The guy who won last year in Legends was SUA for 2 events and SOA for 1, on toyota axles, with a 96" wheelbase. Shit that's not a "specialty vehicle", what are you smoking???

that was last year and there were only just a few legends competitors and no tube rigs. I know of at least three tube rigs built for this year specifcally for the legends class. I have no problem competing against them in my leaf sprung low tech rig, I just want to see the classes more defined so that vehicles are competing with like vehicles. I'm more looking at the long term effects of class division.

Originally posted by pure-adrenaline
Someday a rockcrawling sactioned body will be sued over these problems.


Someone threated to do that to a mud race sanctioning body awhile back here in Missouri. They countered by banning them from the races for a year for being "troublemakers" :D


TEX

Originally posted by jeepguru7
I'm more looking at the long term effects of class division.

Such as??? What long term affects???

Legends is a primer for unlimited, bottom line. IMO people come into legends and hone their skills then they step up the big leagues when ready. Last season the competition in Legends was fun and challenging, not about money or complaining. I hope it will stay this way this season but I guess some people will always have their panties in a bunch.....

Just a primer for Unlimited? Do you think there is no one that would just rather compete in more of a grass roots style format than a sponser driven unlimited class? So does this mean you and Spaceghost are just competeing in Legends because you can't hang it in Unlimited? I don't think so. It's because you feel you'll be more competitive in Legends class. I'm sure with as much work Michael did this winter he could have easily rebuilt his rig to run in a higher class but he did not.

I'm not in this for the money as I have spent far more than I will ever win and I'm not complaing about this years competition, but rather looking ahead to next year and the year after that. I just want to see each class have it's own ranking in overall picture and you can't do that without defining what makes up which each class.

Retained...Maintaned...:(

I guess with everyone complaining about the lenght of our rules, that we indeed do need to make them longer.

nascar changes rules on nearly a week basis, and they cost a hell of alot more.

My conversion with Ranch, ended with us agreeing to the fact that dovetailing and boated sides are not be considered legal in the future. as far as what Ranch allowed or didn't at this last event, we did not discuss it.

Sueing wil not solve anything, try and remember that we are all doing something here that is pretty new, working out the bugs can take time, all the bodies are experiencing the same troubles, I'm not making excueses, just stating fact.

If anyone has questions what will be legal (if out of the norm) please call.

We, RCAA and CalROCS are two different companies, just as is EROCC and UROC or PROROCK and the ret of us. But RCAA and CalROCS are working together under the moniker of the RCAA sancationing body, we hope that the only changes next year in the rules (from this point on) is to clarify any confussinon in INTENT of the rules.

But, as we are still different companies we will still have the right to use promoter discression on any occussion that requires an immediate call.

Rich

PS: dovetailing and boating the sides does give the vehicle a competitive advantage, just as does flatbedding a pick up.

Originally posted by jeepguru7
Just a primer for Unlimited? Do you think there is no one that would just rather compete in more of a grass roots style format than a sponser driven unlimited class? So does this mean you and Spaceghost are just competeing in Legends because you can't hang it in Unlimited? I don't think so. It's because you feel you'll be more competitive in Legends class. I'm sure with as much work Michael did this winter he could have easily rebuilt his rig to run in a higher class but he did not.

I'm not in this for the money as I have spent far more than I will ever win and I'm not complaing about this years competition, but rather looking ahead to next year and the year after that. I just want to see each class have it's own ranking in overall picture and you can't do that without defining what makes up which each class.

I think it's just a primer for unlimited and I am entitled to have my own opinion so :flipoff2: I don't know why Mike decided to stay in legends so maybe you should contact him about that. Perhaps it had something to do with the fact that he felt he wasn't ready for the unlimited class lines and obstacles, perhaps it didn't, why not ask him and find out? I decided to keep spotting for Mike because he's my friend and I have fun spotting when he drives.

I think classes are defined. Just look at the ERoCC rules and you'll see the defintion between the two.

I know the definition now but I'm looking farther ahead in the future, like what it's going to be like in two or three years. Anyway yes your intitled to your own opinion as am I.:flipoff2:

In my eyes the stock modified class should be for like an cj-7 with spring over an 35 or 36 inch tires, an no body modifations but maybe fender trimming very little to keep center of gravity down. Alos in legends should be leaf springs for an vechile that orginally came with leafs or coils if some one wanted to run an TJ. I like the idea of legends an way that an average hard core trail rig could compete. this way some one would not have to spend an ton to get into to the sport.
Any one can e-mail me at cbtoy4x4@yahoo.com
I am going to EROCC, on sunday april 27
also the rest of the EROCC in Jellico events can not make attica.

I edited this post after realizing it was Jaffer's thread, not an ERoCC related discussion. Jaffer, I agree with you. You built based on your understanding of the rules, even got reasonable assurance on the points you had questions about. I wish you well as this plays out! Your rig looks good!

Now my original reply:

This may or may not answer the question about my choices, but WILL reflect my opinion. Don't misinterpret anything I say to more than that, except that I respect others opinions as well.

I didn't make the rules! I don't agree with all of them (in regards to class construction) but thats not the issue. I am well within the rules and do not anticipate any technical issues to be concerns at check in. With that said, I want to be competitive. Building a competitive entry (of any kind in motorsports) is about finding the limits of the rule book while maintaining reliability, while balancing your budget.

Choosing the motorsport or class to build to requires knowing your abilities, comfort level with the demands (courses) and of course your budget. If I had room in my budget for the axles and motor/tranny combination needed to be marginally competitive in Unlimited, I may have made a difference decision. I also had to consider my experience and decide if "I" was able to compete with the many more experienced drivers in Unlimited class.

Now throw in the big differences in the rigs that ARE competitive and understand that some quality seat time will be needed to make the move up in class. This sport is different than many, because it's not just a matter of going faster when you move up.

After taking all that into consideration I decided that I didn't have the budget to jump straight to Unlimited this year. All of the mods I have done are stepping stones toward that class, but without the other items (at least axles), I'd be on the trailer early and often.

Now for my input/take on the rules as they stand today in ERoCC:

Wisely the Trailkeepers recognize that vehicle spec changes require input from members (competitors) and must be announced in a timely manner for the future events.

They also discussed at length the coil over, or major suspension mod question. I suspect next season they will seriously consider setting some reasonable limits on mods like coil over conversions on stock frames. I will be there to support that, as I was when it was discussed last fall (see the archives).

I also think some consideration must be given to OEM available axle configurations if the goal is to keep costs down, and allow the beginer competitor that realistic chance at being competitve with a worked over trail rig. Is that the goal?

Anyway, I am not justifying my actions/choices, nor do I feel the need to. After all I could have scrapped my rig, bought a TJ (or Rubicon) and been competitive (with BigDude) in ProRocks where that vehicle dominates.

The Cruiser will NOT be in Legends in 2004, unless the rules are further relaxed by an organization that has it's finger on the pulse of the competitive Rock Crawling scene. Other wise I will be moving up, or building a TJ for Legends.

Pretty much the same options everyone else has!

Just to state my opinion, Modified stock class relies way more on Driver/Spotter comunication than it does vehicle ability. That may be a pretty harse statement, but a true one.

I'm not saying that the best driver could use a POS, and win, but over the past few years, very simple rigs, with fewer mods than allowed have won almost every event. This past weekend in Reno, the dovetailed rig may have come in 2nd place, but a full bodied cj7 took first, and he competes with duct tape on his leaf springs, and a POS carb!!

I'm not taking away from anyone's points, just trying to say that if you wanna win in stock class, then leave your body alone, make the rig reliable, and work on driver spotter comunication over anything else.

My .02:D

Brian--

My opinion? Fawk my opinion. I think competition is good for some and not for others. For me the cost of replacing and redoing things every time some lame ass whines to the judges isn't worth it. I also think that if you want the sport to grow then chill out on all the friggin rules. 4 years ago we didn't have all this gay shit to deal with. Rockcrawl remember? Not rock race. It used to be fun, now everytime you pull up to check in it's nailbitting time. Back off with all the NO NO NO's and let the wheelers wheel!



Oh and by the way, be consistant with EVERYONE when it comes to the rules.

Originally posted by Brawler

Oh and by the way, be consistant with EVERYONE when it comes to the rules.

AMEN!

First off I would like say that if you are having trouble telling the difference between the mod stock (legends) and super mod (unlimited) vehicles then you need new glasses.

Team Sisson Wrangler looks exactly like a stock Wrangler only cooler! They wanted a way to save from damaging the body in every event so they dove tailed the ends in a bit so that the corners wouldn't catch. Really the only reason to do that is because it keeps the corners looking nice longer. And it just looks bad ass!

Second: Team Sisson doesn't have a ton of money. Garrett and Matt are hard working guys just like the rest of us and the only reason they can afford to keep doing this is because they have busted their asses and gotten sponsors to help out with the many bills that come along with competitive motor sports. And they have sacrificed doing other things with their families so that they can take the many out of pocket expenses that they have incurred in competing in RCAA and UROCK sanctioned events.

Third: The mods that they have made to their vehicle are modifications any one could do. Given the time and money. Their vehicle still retains that stock look and as far as I can see from reading the rules still maintains that rear fender well. The interior dimensions from the inside of the fender well on the driver side to the interior of the fender well on the passenger side are exactly the same as a stock off the showroom floor 1994 Jeep Wrangler TJ.

Plus it just look BAD ASS!

Originally posted by Friar Buck

Third: The mods that they have made to their vehicle are modifications any one could do. Given the time and money.

Couldn't you say that about ANYTHING? Given the time and money I could have Jason Paule build me a tube buggy, but that wouldn't make it legal for Stock Mod.

I was at Check-in in Reno and the judges were asking people what class they were competing in because they couldn't tell the difference. Maybe THEY need glasses??

Wasn't there someone famous who once said, about which specific motorsport I can't remember - but then it apllies equally well to all: "The secret to winning is to never get behind on your cheating?"


Isn't that the very backbone of motorsports - from boats to cars to bikes? It seems to me it always has been. Heck....that's why it's "competition" and not "recreation", no?

If someone exploits a loophole, I don't think of them as cheaters - I think of them as better competitors.

It's up to the sanctioning bodies to be strict and fair with application of the rules, though.

And competing in multiple sanctioning bodies events I would have thought would understandably be incredibly expensive and time consuming, no?

Originally posted by Friar Buck
They wanted a way to save from damaging the body in every event so they dove tailed the ends in a bit so that the corners wouldn't catch.

Wouldn't catch?
You mean, the corners might catch up on a rock?


As in that might cause someone to eventually time out on an obstacle from being hung up on that rear corner?


As in getting caught might cause someone to be shifted over into a cone for points loss?


Yep - no advantage at all there...

Originally posted by 1uglyranger
Just to state my opinion, Modified stock class relies way more on Driver/Spotter comunication than it does vehicle ability. That may be a pretty harse statement, but a true one.


Brian--

I couldn't agree more...its true in all the classes, even unlimited...being a judge you see get to see and meet all the competitors...the ones that I see doing very well are the ones that communicate well...take Lance and Mike (not to be a groupie cause I'm not) for example, I think they are one of the best communitcating teams out there and it shows in their performance...Lance just whispers his sweet nothings to Mike and they get up the stuff that others have struggled on all day:laughing: but its true...

Originally posted by DRM


Wouldn't catch?
You mean, the corners might catch up on a rock?


As in that might cause someone to eventually time out on an obstacle from being hung up on that rear corner?


As in getting caught might cause someone to be shifted over into a cone for points loss?


Yep - no advantage at all there...

I have yet to see someone who catches a corner on a rock time out. They just power through stuff and rip the shit out of their body. Also I have yet to see someone hit a cone on the rear corner of a Jeep mostly I see bumpers and tires hit cones. The major advantage is in avoidance of body damage. Plain and simple!

Originally posted by Dirty Harry


Couldn't you say that about ANYTHING? Given the time and money I could have Jason Paule build me a tube buggy, but that wouldn't make it legal for Stock Mod.

I was at Check-in in Reno and the judges were asking people what class they were competing in because they couldn't tell the difference. Maybe THEY need glasses??

First off your argument about Jason Paule is stupid. Of course you could spend a pretty chunk of change with him and he would build you a bitchin' rock crawler. I'm talking about modifications to a stock vehicle to make it ready for the Modified Stock class (not Stock modified). The key word there is Modified not Stock.

Second, don't mistake Marshalls and Tech officials for Judges, in my experience most of the Marshalls (except Phil Collard and Bob Pratt) in RCAA are not all that bright javascript:smilie(';)') The judges work really hard to learn the rules and are volunteers taking time out from their lives to make the sport better. Most of the Marshalls are Ranch Pratts wife's family and leave something to be desired. Also if someone who is running a vehicle, that looks like it might be in the modified stock class, in the Super Modified class (like the AGR Jeep) then it is hard to tell the difference. Obviously if Jason Paule drives up in his buggy one would be able to tell he is competing in the Super Modified Class (the key word here is Super).

Originally posted by 1uglyranger
Just to state my opinion, Modified stock class relies way more on Driver/Spotter comunication than it does vehicle ability. That may be a pretty harse statement, but a true one.


You are absolutely right. That is why Team Sisson consistently placed higher than a lot of guys running really nice buggies, back when RCAA didn't have classes. They communicate really well and if they had a buggy like Jason Paule's or Jonny G's then they would consistently place in the top of the Super Modified class. The only reason that they don't is because they can't afford a rig like that. They are a team to be reckoned with and really the only thing that I am upset about is the fact that they called up RCAA and asked if it would be acceptable to do this mod and Ranch said it would be fine. Then later Ranch claimed not to have said that it was ok (at least according to Big Rich), thus making the Sissons look like they were trying to cheat!

I just noticed something funny...

Originally posted by pure-adrenaline
We moved the sides in on Sisson's and Ted Grady's rig 2 weeks ago. It works sweet. In tight leaning turns it keeps you from hanging up w/ your corners of the body.

Then on his very next message...

Originally posted by pure-adrenaline
Well I have a problem I guess w/ the rule(dovetailing)...What does it do to enhance a jeeps performance. It really just keeps the corner of the body off the rocks.

Not trying to start shit, but first people are saying it gives them an advantage, then turning around and saying it doesn't!?!
I'm all for Dovetailing as I want that advantage too, but it's gotta be legal first. If they never make it legal, that's ok too as everyone will be equal in that area.

Originally posted by RedBullJeep

I'm all for Dovetailing as I want that advantage too, but it's gotta be legal first. If they never make it legal, that's ok too as everyone will be equal in that area.


Well said, the idea is great, but at this point, not legal, so leave it at that.

Becca doesn't need a dovetailed rig to place top three;)

Brian--