Defender 90 Help

[Getsome]

My sister ownes a 1997 Defender 90 that about 2 years ago had some head work done at Safari. About 4 months ago it started overheating while she was comming back from Seattle. She took it to the dealer and they "fixed" it. Clogged radiator. Still overheated. To make a long story shorter the dealer is saying that whoever did the head work used a grinder on the block to get the head gasket off and screwing up the block. :confused: Now it won't seal because of the "grinding" that was done on the block. $10k and she'll be good as new. :mad:

I'm confused on may levels hear. Why a "grinder" on the the block to get the head gasket off? Also why did it run fine for 2 years and it's now a problem?
I'm going to go take a look at it this week and talk to the machanic who is working on it. It better look like a ski slope for me to believe that someone used a grinder on it.

Safari(offroad,4x4,D90 only people????) say 12 months 12k miles on their work. She did talk to a lawyer and he said she's screwed.

Any idea's and what can be done? I'm going to talk to her about just selling it "as is" and not spending $10k for a new engine.

[64rovr]

jesus... if you spend 10k on a new land rover motor youre nuts. hope youre getting a race built 5.2L stroker for that.

look around, IF you do need a new motor, there are some great deals to be had. just make sure you get a 4.0 or 4.6, the 3.5, 3.9, and 4.2 will bolt up, but wont work with the distributorless ignition system, and the blocks are much weaker.

as far as the whole grinder thing goes, sounds like a load of shit to me, but ive seen some meathead mechanics do some STUPID things. where is she at in the country right now?

PS- theres a land rover section you know:flipoff2:

[redrangie]

It's possible that the heads warped. It's also possible that some meathead couldn't keep a steady hand with a reloc disc and took off more than the gasket material from the head.

If it get's sold as is I'm in line.

Oh, and move this to the Landy section will ya before you get flamed to death.

j

[Getsome]

I thought about the LR foram but though that this was not "tech" enough.

She's been riding her bike accross the US from Cali to Florida and just got back to Colorado, with a broken shoulder. For now she's going to be using my pickup to get to and from work.

Every head gasket that I've ever taken off was metal and just came right off. No gasket scraper or air tools.

Every machanic that I've seen has used a abrasive pad on a small 90 degree angle grinder that would take years to damage the block.

I'll take pics when I check it out.

I think that it's the 3.9L with auto trans.

$10k was for the dealer to install a new engine and hook it up.

[DiscoDino]

Man...

Your sister sounds like a GREAT lady...the kind I'd love to spend the rest of my life with...D90, biking...wow...does she cook?

:D

[evilfij]

I am in line on a buy, if the block is really screwed (highly doubtfull, though after an overheat anything is possible) you can get a new 4.0 short block for $1200, you will have to swap crank sensor plates but it is no biggy. Personally I would take it back to safari and have them check it out, give them the chance to make it right.

Sell it to me though instead :)

Ron

[PTSchram]

Getsome,
The block and heads on those trucks are both Aluminium and as a result, it is possible the deck was torn up, however, it's my experience that they can be cleaned up pretty easily with no damage to the block.

There are so many things they could have done wrong, but my money is on the overheating led to warping of the heads and now, she needs to have the heads resurfaced and new gaskets installed. Shouldn't cost more than a grand if she's handy. Around $500 if the BF she no doubt has if she's as you described is mechanically inclined. These engines are notoriously easy to overheat and it doesn't take much more to warp the heads. When mine let go, I had two valve guides leave their homes and stuck two valves open!

If it gets sold, I'm in on the bidding. Got a couple of boneyard engines that would fit right well.

Peace,
Paul

[Old Scout]

Originally posted by DiscoDino
Man...

Your sister sounds like a GREAT lady...the kind I'd love to spend the rest of my life with...D90, biking...wow...does she cook?

:D

Put your BVDs back on! :rolleyes:

[camo]

if your bock was decked with a "grinder' it would never have lasted 2 years before problems arose. period


the use of a spiral loc scotch brite pads is standard procedure to remove gasket material from surfaces. if it worked fine for 2 years then that is not your problem. if she over heated the engine and warped the block or head then that is a seperate issue.


your sister needs to take responsibilty for her actions. she was driving and overheated the engine. she should have turned the motor off before it got overheated. thats why cars have temputure gages. trying to blame and sue somebody that worked on her vechile 2 years ago because she overheated and ruined her engine is irresponsible. it is the drivers resoponsibilty to monitor there vechiles operating gages and act accordingly. if it got hot and she continued to operate the engine beyond the manufactures tolerances and ruined the motor then she is at fault.

[DieLucas!]

Originally posted by camo
your sister needs to take responsibilty for her actions. she was driving and overheated the engine. she should have turned the motor off before it got overheated.

Point very well taken, Camo, and I agree it likely is not the fault of Safari who did the work. However, the issue is that the dealership is the one who claims the last head-job was done wrong. I'm more concerned that the dealership f'ed up the "clogged radiator" repair they supposedly did...if it was truely clogged and they repaired it, then why would the head problem surface 4 short months later? If it was always the head problem, then the dealership charged you for a radiator service/repair they did not perform.
At a $10K estimate to repair it, I'd get the tow dolly and get that vehicle the hell away from the dealership.

[evilfij]

if your bock was decked with a "grinder' it would never have lasted 2 years before problems arose. period

Not necessarily true. While rovers are known warpers the gaskets on the 4.0s are excelent. I had a head installed that was 15 thou off and it survived for more than a year before blowing the gasket.

Its pretty common to see someone gouge the top of a rover block if they do not know what they are doing. A cicular scotch brite pad on a air grinder can gouge it in under a second.

Ron

[Getsome]

I just talked to my sister and she's going to talk to the dealer on Friday and take some pictures of the "destroyed" block.

My only reservation on her getting a D90 was the Aluminium block and heads.

The dealer is saying that the heads are fine, not warped totaly square and flat.

Camo: First thanks for moving this. I agree that my sister could have been a little smarter about the temp but the dealer gave it back to her three times after "fixing" it. First time was the temp sender was bad and it needed a tune up. Second time the radiator was clogged and it was sent out "fixed" and called good to go. Overheated going up I70. In town it was fine but underload or mountain driving it would get hot.

If she had taken it to the dealer after it started to overheat and was told that she warped both heads and the block I'd be the first one to tell her that she's a dumbass and should eat the rebuild.

Right now it looks like she's going to sell it with the blown engine but thats up to her and what she finds out at the dealer Friday. I'm going on Monday to take my own pictures because this doen't make sence to me at all. I'll post the pics later Monday night.

DieLucas: They charged her over $400 for the old radiator that was rodded out and "fixed". A new one(I think) was installed. Old radiator that was sent out is for sale if interested.

P.S. I aint pimpn my sister but she also rock climbes, kyacks, and just came back from Cambodia, Thiland, China, and Viet Nam. Did you know that for $15 in Viet Nam you can shoot a cow with a RPG?

[Bodgerover]

So let me get this right there are two queues: one for the toasted motor and one for the sister...

I would like to reserve a place in the Sister queue please - sounds to good to be true... :D

Pics please :flipoff2:

Pissed that Adam beat me to the front of the line - always got your hand on the trigger Adam :flipoff2:

[evilfij]

I have no interest in your sister but I do have interest in the D90.

my email is evilfij (At) yahoo.com

BTW I can't see a block that lived for two years that would not seal up at least for a while with new head gaskets. Tell her to have the dealer just wack the heads back on and drive it out and then sell it. I would be willing to bet it is fine for quite a while.

Ron

[redrangie]

Originally posted by evilfij
I have no interest in your sister but I do have interest in the D90.

my email is evilfij (At) yahoo.com

BTW I can't see a block that lived for two years that would not seal up at least for a while with new head gaskets. Tell her to have the dealer just wack the heads back on and drive it out and then sell it. I would be willing to bet it is fine for quite a while.

Ron

I agree. And as I worked there for a BRIEF time, I would like you to PM me the service advisor your working with. I bet a dollar to a donut I know who it is. Is she at south? If so you definitely need to PM me.

I also can talk to someone there ifn you want as I mentioned on your post on Colorado4x4.

j

[Puffdragon]

Your gettin screwed period. A new motor at the dealer should be just under $9000. Its expensive, but it can be done by other shops for much less. you can also swap in many other different engines for far less than $10,000. I mean far less.

However, rover heads dont warp on a regular basis. I dont care what any of you think, it not true. The rover engine is a sweet setup, but it is under powered, and has far to many electrical problems.

It sounds like you are having the same typical overheating problems that almost every D-90 has at some point in its life. Most of the time, the readings from the engine are incorrect. The guage and temp sensor get funk on some D-90's, and show false readings. I had an overheating problem, and had rad flush, temp sensor changed and a few other things. Finally, it turned out, that i finally got the updated temp sensor, and it never overheated again. Maybe she did overheat it, but who knows without having the engine in hand.

Bottom line, is get it out of the dealership. I used to work for LR as a tech, trust me, its way to expensive. Get use some pics, and we can likely help you out. Hell, for 10,000 you could buy a nice early 90's classic rangie, steel the engine out of it, and plug it into your 90 with minimal work, then sell of the rangie carcass for a few bucks, or keep it for yourself, and put in a chev 350 or something. Your still in way under $10.000

[evilfij]

"rover heads dont warp on a regular basis"

BS what rover heads are you working on K.C.?

Get a mechanics straitedge and check them.

Ron

[Getsome]

My sister loves the LR and would perfer to keep it but as we all know taking it to the dealer is alot of coin and thats something that she's a little short on. She might also be moving to Asia in a little while so personal wheels will be a thing of the past.

Redrangie: It's at Flatirons just outside of the people republic. I'll talk to her tomorrow after she look at it.

Alot of intrest in the D90. I'll have to crawl under it again and look for portals or matching Camo 60's.:)

Maybe I'll just buy it and slap a 350 SBC in it.:flipoff2:

[Old Scout]

Originally posted by Getsome

Alot of intrest in the D90. I'll have to crawl under it again and look for portals or matching Camo 60's.:)

Maybe I'll just buy it and slap a 350 SBC in it.:flipoff2:

You seem a little wiser that the typical 16 post newbie. Have you been lurking for the past year? :p ;)

[Getsome]

I've been lurking for a long time but I choose to keep my mouth shut and try to learn something.

P.S. I did a search!:flipoff2:

[DiscoDino]

Amateur answer:

Wow...That personality, that gender, and that truck make my BVDs wet!
:flipoff2:

Professional answer:

Slap in a 350 and be happy with that , all you need is an adapter that will cost you MUCh less than fixing the Rover block.

Now reread the amateur answer!

If she's heading to the middle east, PM me! has she desert-boarded yet?

[redrangie]

Originally posted by Getsome


Redrangie: It's at Flatirons just outside of the people republic. I'll talk to her tomorrow after she look at it.



Ahh... Say no more.. Nudge nudge, wink wink.

Get it the fawk out of there!

Also, stay away from that guy in Nederland... Nuttin personal, just stay away. I will explain in a different place, but not here.

Put a new gasket on it, new head bolts, and call me. I'm married, so I don't care about your sister, well I am envious, but my wife's pretty studly too.

The offers out there. No monies, I'm not after your sister, and I am volunteering. I am not saying I will fix it, but I can point you somewhere or help with the diag.

[Puffdragon]

Ron, maybe you forget my back ground. I worked for LR dallas as tech. I have pulled apart more rover engines than my heart desires. Aluminum heads are not stright by nature. They are never straight after the truck is turned on the first time. but they do not warp in the sense you are talking, unless the truck has been overheated. In my time at rover, I never saw a head go to the machine shop, or get replaced unless it was warranty, and needed a valve job, in that case rover passes out rebuilds.

Now, if your talking the old 4cyl and such, you got me, but that would not have been relavent to the topic, so that should not be the case.

Originally posted by evilfij
"rover heads dont warp on a regular basis"

BS what rover heads are you working on K.C.?

Get a mechanics straitedge and check them.

Ron

[Getsome]

Redrangie: Sent you a PM. Interesting about the Nederland thing. I got a PM on Colorado4x4 about someone who works on LR's in Nederland and can do work on the cheap.

KC: Pm'd you also.


I went to look at it today and the top end is off along with the water pump and other mics things. It didn't look bad to me.:confused: I did see some "scufs" around the #2 cylender but nothing interesting. I took about five pictures per side and with luck they'll come out good.I'm not at home or I'd post then but with luck tomorrow when I get up.

If I had to guess I'd say that Redrangie was correct on them using something like a scotch bright pad on the block. I know nothing about these blocks so I have no idea why this would "warp" them. They sure as hell didn't use a grinder on it. I wanted to talk to the machanic but he quit and went to the place that she had the heads done at the first time......

Redrangie I was up at Carnage Canyon with you and a bunch of others taking pictures with my camara. I had the brown 79 CJ7.

[evilfij]

I guess I just have higher standards . . . if they are out by more than 2 thou or so they get replaced/machined here.

Any overheated engine has at least a 1/3 chance of having warped heads. Up to about 5 thou you can put the back on but you are asking for trouble.

Ron

[redrangie]

Didn't get the pm.

The guy in Nederland USED to be there until he HAD to leave. Nuf said. Oh and he was the Service manager, he DIDN'T wrench there.





Ron,
I hear what your saying. The heads are off, might as well mill them. what's a little more compression between friends. I don't think the deck is done, but I haven't seen it.

Getsome, I would tow it out. No harm no foul. The dealer knows that they are going to have to warranty it. And they probably don't trust the way it was done first, and they are just covering there asses. You can't really fault them for that. HOWEVER, that dealer has no where near the level of expertise that the south store or the east store has.

If you your sister is going to have someone at the green oval do it, have Mike Shue (east) or Dave (south) look at it there.

Your going to be even between putting a used one in there and bolting this one back together as far as longevity goes. I really don't see the harm in prepping the heads and bolting it down. If it lasts 3 years do you loose? I don't think so. Not compared to an engine. When I did this for a living I would never put a new or rebuilt in withour some major trepidation. The Dealer knows that every time it coughs after they do the work, your sister will be back blaming it on the engine work, so they are trying to price you out of it. If she buys it, then they throw the dice and hope she doesn't come back for awhile.

You could get a 4.0 short or long block and re-do the whole damn thing. It's just a standard v8, just alloy not iron. I want to see the engine or the pics...

Oh, and getsome, let's talk at the carnage cleanup, I'll be there.

j


j

[Getsome]

I agree with doing the machine work and putting it back together to see what happens. The thing that I don't understand is why they didn'y do a leak down test or a compression test BEFORE tearing the heads off. She never told them to take it apart just to find out why it was over heating. She's going to tell them to eat the labor and parts to put it back together since she didn't authorize them to tear into it. We'll see.

The guy that I talke to today was young and didn't know much about Landys or anything else that I was talking about in terms of head work or engines in general.

I should be at the clean up and we'll talk. I should hav the pics up tomorow but I have to leave early because I want to get to Poison Spyder's free junk sale and pick up that gas tank.

[Getsome]

Hear is a link to the pics.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ancast/D90/

One file is huge(#3) but thats because I think thats where the damage might be. The others are modem safe.

[Puffdragon]

somebody deffinatly went at it with a power tool, which is wrong. No body has a steady enough hand to use a power tool with abrasive on an aluminum engine block period, its to risky. I dont think it would be wrong of you to have a conversation with the last shop or person that pulled the heads, but you cant push to much, as it has been to long for any real recourse. Your best off, pulling the block, and haveing the deck machined and polished. it shoudl not be a huge expense from this point on, since it is already torn apart, but rover will not do it. You will have to tow it out, and have it done at an independant shop, preferably a speed shop that know motors, and does there own machine work.

[redrangie]

That's one hell of a divot.

I would tow it out, and stick with the "I didn't authorize you to pull the heads". Then tow it to Madcap in Denver, or Havana machine.

Puffdaddy is right on this one, that's one hell of a gouge.

j

[evilfij]

I see this crap all the time (heads usually not the block). It is wrong and potentially damaging but usually it causes no problems. I would say that the overheat is likely not related to the heads and the block.

Spray some hi-tack permetex sealer on before the gasket and torque it down and it will seal fine. I do not see the old gasket to tell for sure but the looks of it there is no blow by.

Whatever you do DO NOT DECK THE BLOCK, check the heads and make sure they are flat (if not machine). If you must do anything with the block replace it with a disco II block ($1200)

I wish I were local I would get it done for you.

Ron

[evilfij]

i would still be interested in the vehicle.

Mileage? Price?

Ron

[Getsome]

Evilfij: I'm not sure about the price and the miles. From looking around the web my advice to my sister would be around $10-12k "as is". She picked up my truck today and the bitch(I can call her a bitch because she's my sister) didn't call me so I could talk to her to let her know whats been going on. :mad:

If it was mine and I had limited funds and ability I'd put new head gaskets on it after checking the heads for straitness and see what happens. All I'd be out is gaskets and time and if it got hot again I'd park it and put a "for sale" sign on it. It's going to be sold one way or another, it just depends on what condition the engine is in when that happens.

She'd like to keep it but she doesn't have the time/money/ability or desire to keep it running. It's not a Honda and thank God for that.

[evilfij]

If that is here price I am very interested.

Please PM me her contact info (I am married happily I am only after her truck :) )

Ron

[evilfij]

I could also part trade her my 96 disco if she wants to still have a rover.

Ron

[Getsome]

Evil: your PM box is full.

Redrangie: You have a PM.