So I put my new radiator in last night....turns out to be suprisingly easy....only issue was the fan cowl needed some trimming....no big deal. Its filled with coolant, park on a hill to get all the air out. I fire the truck up.....no leaks....cool. I let it warm up. Well it continues to get warm, warmer than normal(with the bad radiator). I shut it down, figuring maybe the air needs to be forced out better. Force a little more air out(not much). Restart, she warms up and continues to get too hot. Turn the heater on, it doesn't heat up. Despite being too hot, the new radiator is cool to the touch everywhere; the heater is cold. The only thing that is hot is the upper radiator hose, and I could touch it with a bare hand for a short period of time.
So my thought is the thermostat has crapped out somehow....am I on the right track??? Maybe draining the system jammed up the thermostat? The thermostat is less than a year old.

It shouldn't be the water pump, should it??

Utterly defeated, I went inside, turned on the hockey game and drowned myself in a beer.

Unless you folks suggest differently, I'll pull the t-stat tonight and test it in some hot water.
-Seth

did you use the proper fill procedure?

Sounds like an air pocket.

Did it burp when you filled and started it?

j

uhhh.....proper procedure????
used the Range rover service manual. It said fill up, I did.
I put it on an incline, filled it a bit more. Squeezed the upper radiator hose to get some air bubbles out.

forgive my ignorance...what is the proper procedure?

Someone on another board suggested the heater core might be full of air.

I'm not so sure it's the wrong filling method. I have drained and refilled radiators on my RR's in super sloppy fashion many times.

I'm betting it's the thermostat. Get in there and replace it, at least you'll know that you replaced it when you did the radiator.

Tell me more about the bubble in the system, I've never heard of that. BUT, I do know that you should open the upper fill pipe and put coolant in there while leaving the radiator plug and overflow tank plug open. That's the way I've been told you *should* do it (doesn't mean I always did it that way).

The Rover cooling systems have several conduits for water to bypass when the thermostat is closed that I do not think this is the problem. Sounds to me as though there is an air bubble somewhere. I would first pull the uppermost heater hose whilst filling to allow air that may be trapped within to be displaced with water. I'm not sure if the 90 has the plug on the heater hose piping or not. Also, pulling the plug on the radiator is handy when installing a new radiator as it allows the system equilbrate faster as the air passes through a much larger passage and is unrestricted.

While replacing the thermostat is not a bad idea, I don't think this is it.

I too have sloppily filled Rover cooling systems and have yet to have a problem.

Peace,
Paul

Originally posted by Serious One
.

Tell me more about the bubble in the system, I've never heard of that. BUT, I do know that you should open the upper fill pipe and put coolant in there while leaving the radiator plug and overflow tank plug open. That's the way I've been told you *should* do it (doesn't mean I always did it that way).

Imagine the upper radiator hose. Its the highest point in the system.....so air naturally gets trapped their.
I put the truck on an incline to make the radiator above the hose.
squeeze hose to push air up into the radiator. I had a funnel stuffed into the fill hole. I had the funnel full of water. Squeezing the hose force the air out through the funnel and it pulls water back. When it stops bubbling, you've got all the air you can get.

Used this on my mini all the time.....of course it doesn't have a heater core. The more I think of it the more I think it sounds like the heater core. Cause the hoses from the top of engine to the heater are high enough that maybe they trapped air too.

I'm leaning towards the heater core being full of air. Anyone know the capacity of the system????
I read the capacities section the manual before I went and bought coolant. I've only put a grand total of 3 bottles of fluid in(3.7 liters each)....I seem to remember 22 liters to fill the system...

Maybe I can skip out at lunch to play with the truck.

Pull all the top-side plugs you can (filler, nifty tube over valve cover-if it has one, and the one on the radiator) might even pull the top hose, but keep an eye on it as you'll have hot water spewing out when the thermostat opens. Start engine, turn heater controls to hot, bring to operating temperature, begin squeezing and rearranging hoses. As the engine heats up, the air is expanding and wants to get out. Give it as many avenues to escape as you can and while you're at it, pull, push, tug,squeeze (sounds like a Merv comment) on the flexible portions of your heater hoses to force more air out.

Might work.

Peace,
Paul

So...I went home for lunch....and to wrench.


Try someones suggestion to pull a heater hose see if I can put coolant in their.... Seemed full.

Run it for awhile hoping air moved its way through the system.

still getting hot.....running it with out the filler cap to see if the coolant is flowing. When the guage indicated it was hot enough....it did not look like coolant was flowing.....
some coolant was bubbling out of the fill hole though. Which at the time I was figuring it was because it was running hot. But the radiator was cool. Upper hose was hot.

I figure what the heck, I'll just pull the thermostat. Looks easy enough. Other than having "reach" issues, it was pretty easy.
I test the thermostat in hot water....and it opens exactly when it should.

So that eliminates the thermostat.....damn.

now what......

this shouldn't be difficult....i'm an idiot.

It can't be the water pump.....how could it just fail all of a sudden.

Originally posted by sachilles

still getting hot.....running it with out the filler cap to see if the coolant is flowing. When the guage indicated it was hot enough....it did not look like coolant was flowing.....


Now I'm no mechanic, but if it wasn't flowing and there is no blockage then maybe the Water Pump is the problem.

Of course I would not replace it with just my advice alone. Has it ever been replaced?

history of the water pump is unknown.
Bought the truck almost a year ago...

Water pump has none of the tell tale leaks. Up until I changed the radiator.....everything was working more or less fine. Truck would just get hot on steep, long hills...but never hot enough to over heat.

Could be the water pump was dying,.....I really don't want to believe its the water pump yet.

ok. slow down.

Here is what you do.
From start to finish.

Drain system. use the lower radiator hose at the least, and the drain petcocks on the block at most in conjunction.

Open fill plug on radiator after re-attaching hoses and closing all drains. Remove the resevoir cap. Open the fill stalk (on manifold).

Move heater controls to full heat temp and defrost settings.

Begin filling through stalk. When water is visible through fill plug on radiator start motor. Continue to fill until water reaches the top of the radiator. Replace fill plug loosely so that air, but not water will escape from the plug. Once all air has come out of the radiator tighten the plug. At this point the system should look full in the resevoir. When it does, close the fill stalk.

The system will "burp" out of the resevoir when the thermostat opens then recloses. Add more coolant through resevoir. Burp again. Continue running till system no longer overflows when thermostat changes position. Close cap on resevoir. Shut off engine.

Check level in resevoir when cool, and add as nescessary.

That is the procedure.

j

OK, OK.......

where is the fill stock. On the manifold, relative to the elbow where the thermostat is. The efi sensor on the manifold is right near the elbow...is it near that.

I know, I know I'm an idiot....

I owe so many of you a beer at this point.

Seth:
There may be a plug on the upper heater hose manifold, Right side of engine, above valve cover. This is one of the vents that should/must be opened.

on the passenger side. I have to rubber hoses leading from the manifold going towards the heater core. When they get to about the valve cover they each connect to a solid and straight metal pipe. At the cabin end of the valve cover, the metal pipes connect to rubber hose again, dissappearing behind the engine. Neither of the pipes have a vent or any sort of access.

If by right side you meant facing the engine, then I'm not sure what's there....and I'll look for the filler stock there.


BTW.....thank you everyone for your input.....I'll get this right eventually.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by sachilles
OK, OK.......

where is the fill stock. On the manifold, relative to the elbow where the thermostat is. The efi sensor on the manifold is right near the elbow...is it near that.

I know, I know I'm an idiot....

I owe so many of you a beer at this point.

You know that funny arse looking thing with the big nut that sticks up on the left side of the manifold? That's the fill tube/stalk.

The drains are on the block, but don't mess with them, unless you want trouble. Just use the lower hose. The radiator vent/fill plug is the big plastic nut thingy with a slot in it on the passenger side of the radiator.

These things do heat up under load. Are your electric fans engaging? They should engage at about 205 real temp. Don't trust your gauge unless you have checked the voltage at the gauge vs the sensor.

j

No electric fan.....87 Range rover.

I'll poke around after work....course I should just go home...not like doing anything anyway.

Seth:
It appears as though your '87 does not have the vent on the heater hose manifold-sorry, neither do the Discos.

If you dont have the fill stalk, use the radiator.

j

Thank god:eek:

I was starting to think I was crazy.....OK...i'm gonna just start over tonight ....following red rangies directions minus the filler stalk.

If you still have dramas after using the proper fill procedure heres a couple more tricks.

1. Remove all belts and set up a pulley in your electric drill and drive the water pump with it. This lets you avoid running around a hot engine thats pucking coolant and steam everywhere doing up all the plugs. Make sure you run it the right direction and still have the purge ports open. You will see and hear it burping the air out.

2. If you have a really stubborn air pocket in ancillaries like heater or LPG converter, a drill driven diapraghm pump from the hardware store temporarily installed in a heater hose is handy too. They sell them for pumping out basements etc.

If you dont have the water manifold with the fill point beside the plenum on the intake, extending the radiator fill point 3 or more feet higher and using a significant container will give you a nice head of pressure to aid purging too.

Cheers
Daryl

night 2:
I've been getting ready to go on vacation....so afterwork, I needed to head to my bank and do some errands etc....when you live in the boonies like me...that takes a little while.
I finally got home around 6:30.
The thermostat elbow is off.....so I figure what the heck...just connect it without the thermostat so I can see if I have flow right off. tighten up the elbow....what a pain in the a$$, my hands just wouldn't fit. Eventually got it sealed up good enough for the test.
Start motor...notice there is a small leak at the elbow...watch coolant through radiator fill hole.....not moving....
Did I mention it was raining at the time??? I'm outside working on the truck(no garage). A thunderstorm kicks up, I decide that this will just have to wait.....bummer is it will have to wait until I'm back from vacation....May 12th. Not happy.

So out of absolute curiousity, how much pressure/flow would the coolant have at idle?

Originally posted by sachilles
night 2:


So out of absolute curiousity, how much pressure/flow would the coolant have at idle?

Very little.

I've seen leaks you couldn't find with uv dye except at 4k rpm.

j

so this is my logic based on last nights activity.

small leak at the elbow, when the engine is on. Stops when the engine stops.....water pump must be doing something.

When I return from vacation...I'll re-install the thermostat,...sealing it up well.

I'll start the process over.

I'm going to Vegas...maybe I can win enought to put a 4.6 in!

gimme a call when you get here.

I'll tell you where you get a guaranteed bang for your buck. (hint: it ain't at the casinos)

:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Serious One
gimme a call when you get here.

I'll tell you where you get a guaranteed bang for your buck. (hint: it ain't at the casinos)

:flipoff2:

oh gawd,

Not that ranch place with the red light on....

j

Girlfriend will be with me.......no chicken ranch for me....

Gambling will not be a big priority.

Just seeing what is around.....Grand Canyon and Hoover dam too.

Only five days....

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sachilles
night 2:


So out of absolute curiousity, how much pressure/flow would the coolant have at idle?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Very little.

I've seen leaks you couldn't find with uv dye except at 4k rpm.

j



What? At operating temperature, you'll have full cooling system pressure-~5-7 PSI. By definition, you must have full pressure at opertating temperature, otherwise, the temperature will rise. This may be an indication that Seth has a leak somewhere and the lack of pressurization is leading to the overheating. Flow will definitely be at a minimum at idle, but the pressure is not determined as much by flow rate as it is by temperature and the closed system status of an automotive cooling system. I don't have a nomograph handy, but I'll stand behind this statement.

I also have seen leaks that could not be seen, but could be felt as the coolant was being atomized by the elevated pressures and tiny gaps breaking the coolant into microscopic droplets. The only way I even found the leak was due to the accumulation of rust stains at the leak point.

Peace,
Paul

Originally posted by PTSchram
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sachilles
night 2:


So out of absolute curiousity, how much pressure/flow would the coolant have at idle?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Very little.

I've seen leaks you couldn't find with uv dye except at 4k rpm.

j



What? At operating temperature, you'll have full cooling system pressure-~5-7 PSI. By definition, you must have full pressure at opertating temperature, otherwise, the temperature will rise. This may be an indication that Seth has a leak somewhere and the lack of pressurization is leading to the overheating. Flow will definitely be at a minimum at idle, but the pressure is not determined as much by flow rate as it is by temperature and the closed system status of an automotive cooling system. I don't have a nomograph handy, but I'll stand behind this statement.

I also have seen leaks that could not be seen, but could be felt as the coolant was being atomized by the elevated pressures and tiny gaps breaking the coolant into microscopic droplets. The only way I even found the leak was due to the accumulation of rust stains at the leak point.

Peace,
Paul
So sue me, I flunked fluid dynamics in fiziks. Yes your right the pressure is the same, but the flow is low. You know, I chased a problem for about 3 weaks before I found a weak cap seal causing a vapor leak. How many of us remember to pressure test the fawking cap when doing a pressure test...

j

good to know this stuff,....but a hair on the high level for me.
Just wanted to know if I should see the coolant rushing through the system at idle....I'm guessing not.

Oh well,, time to leave for vacation.....

Las Vegas here I come........

If anybody heres of an incident at the Luxor....it could be me.


time to start drinking!!!

OK...I don't leave until monday.....but vacation starts today.
(Wedding in Boston tomorrow, a little last minute work either Sunday night or monday morning.)
Be in Vegas Monday night.