Welcome to the next installment of the

Topic of the Week

We've talked about retrofitting EFI to your AMC engine in a previous TOTW. (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53706)

This time, let's discuss what it will take to fuel inject your carbed SBC engine.

Yes, this has been discussed at length on other sites. Links to those sites are appreciated, but let's get the tech out here.

The reource I used a lot when doing mine:
http://www.fuelinjection.com

Gave lots of good info on what to look for in the junkyard, how to mix & match TPI setups, and parts identification.

My TPI parts list to convert from Edelbrock 4 barrel to TPI:
http://www.jeepland.net/tpi.shtml

With prices & years, etc.

Bryan

We all Know EFI is best for any 4x4

but $$$ is an issue ...........

here is a link with EfI for any motor at a low cost with chevy parts


>>> http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html <<<

.

One area that concerns the swap to EFI is changes to fuel supply. Mainly the fuel pump, whether it be in-tank or not. In-tank has several advantages including cooling, location of fuel links and re-circulation.

Building a low cost rig, I went with w plastic fuel cell from Summit and spent a good amount of time researching an external pump solution that would work with some reliability in the 14psi-range for my Cheb TBI.

Here's the pump I have for my rig:

Holley Gerotor inline pump (http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/NewsInfo/NewsRels/NR101002Y.html)

Hope this helps-
Geesh

Delco...Delco...Delco...there is no need for aftermarket pumps since delco makes everything you could possibly want and if your junk breaks on the trail just pick up a replacement from the parts store.
Pump Catalogue (http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/component_info/fuel_pumps.html)

I used the edelbrock Pro-Flo fuel injection setup for my SBC in a Jeep.
Its based on the TPI from a 86' Vette. In fact, I could basicly replace all parts with Delco stuff.
This kit is way too expensive to be considered an option tho, and I wouldnt do it again. Its $2000 for a complete bolt on from your existing. The distributor stays stock and is converted to a hall effect sensor and the vaccuum is removed(HEI). Closed loop and speed Density are both options from inside the vehicle.
It does have an in dash screen to adjust fuel and spark points as well as anything else you might want to do.
One thing I have noticed about MPFI chevy is the on/off throttle.
feathering the throttle isnt practical.
throttle body and carb setups seem to work a little nicer for this. one way Ive overcome this is by having a a saved config in my system, that runs really rich and part throttle/low rpm. Not the best way to do it but it kinda helps.

I have an Accel Gen 6 TBI...does everything that you could ask for on a trail rig.

They can be picked up off ebay for cheap, but the problem is finding replacement senors. Accel disco'ed the setup and they are pushing their Gen 7 so no support from them.

All the sensors look to be standard Delco, but I have yet to find all the part numbers.

A good setup to run would be the megasquirt and aftermarket TBI as the chevy stock TBI isn't the best.

I'm running a megasquirt controller,hei distributor, carter external pump, GM TBI (off an 89 305), all gm sensors on an amc motor with stock intake manifold. The motor makes no difference here as all else is chevy and it's tbi. Simple setup, just replaces the carburetor. Not much money into it, and it does all it's supposed to do. If you are piecing together a junkyard system, the TBI has the advantage of having less injectors to worry about being mucked up, and no need to replace the intake manifold or install a crank position sensor to do sequential injection. The megasquirt is great, but you could have just pulled the whole shebang off the junkyard chevy and installed it on your similar displacement motor and been injected for less than $200.00 (that includes a new fuel pump). If you want the ultimate in horsepower, you may need to look elsewhere, but if you want cheap and simple, GM TBI is the way to go. The parts yard was full of them.

I think people shy away from the tpi wiring harness and go to the painless. Its not hard using the tpi harness but you need the gm shop manual, theres a place in flint michigan where you can get them used, I think I paid thirty for mine, but you have to make sure to get the one with the wiring diagrams. This is what I did and it worked great.
I used the 90 wrangler tank with a four cylinder and sending unit. I then bought a walbro fuel pump for I think 100 shipped. Pretty easy shoe horning the fuel pump on the sender, just an inch or so longer. The fuel pump is what all the third gen guys use and it will keep up if you make more hp.
One thing about the shop manual, it has an awesome trouble shooting guide in it, which makes it easy to diagnose if your having problems.

I run a TPI 415 with a Accel Gen 7 Digital ECU, this thing is by far the most bad arse ECM by far. I used a intake and Throttle body from a 91 Camaro and aftermarket 31 lb injectors. The rest of the sensors are stock, this unit is running in Sequential Injection Mode so the injectors fire in the same order as the plugs. A stock TPI unit fires in Batches, so every injector on the right fire at the same time same thing for the left.

If your running a stock or very near stock 305 or 350 you will be fine with a reburned PROM from a stock ECM but if you get a little radical this Gen 7 box is the way to go.. You should see the looks when they see a Jeep on 40's doing dyno runs down the road while tweaking the fuel map with a laptop. :D

I plan on adding a Wide Band O2 sensor that will allow me to TELL the ECU what fuel air mixture I want at a given RPM and Load rather than having to tweak the settings to get them right.

Here is something I typed up helping someone else on the board with the basics of a TPI swap.. you may find some useful information here.. If not so be it!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you want to install a TPI in your Jeep ??? All I can say is welcome to the party.. okay few things you need to know about the different systems.

There are 2 basic types of TPI in the 85-92 models, the Mass air flow system and the speed density system. Basically the difference is one sensor. On the Mass Air there is a large sensor mounted on the air intake which measures the amount of air being taken in and from there the ECM computes fuel needs and what not. The speed Density does not use the mass air sensor it uses a MAP sensor (Manifold Absolute Pressure) which basically measures the intake vacuum in relation to throttle posistion and uses a table to determine how much fuel to add. Make sense? Didn't think so.... due to space limitations in the CJ and the fact that you are not going to HIGHLY modify this engine the Speed Density is the ideal choice and the fact that the Mass Air sensor is over 200 bucks and the MAP is 40.

Okay here is the run down of the sensors you will need to make sure you have, Okay one is a Oxygen Sensor, if you are running headers you need to be able to mount the sensor within 1.5 feet of the heads if this is not possible you will need to get a 3 wire, heated, Oxygen sensor. It is best to get a vehicle speed sensor, it helps the ECM calculate things better, the one www.jimsperformance.com sells will screw right into the D20 or D300 case. Okay next is the Knock sensor, Jims sells two kinds one with a 3/8 bolt thread you can screw into the back of your head or a stock one the screws into the water drain plug on the bottom center of each side of the block.

The next sensors will be installed on the TPI unit itself, a IAC Motor, this mounts below the throttle body, a throttle posistion sensor mounts on the right side of the throttle body, a coolent temp sensor which mounts on lower intake plenum, the MAT sensor Manifold air temp sensor which screws into the bottom of the upper plenum, and a EGR temp sensor which screws into the side of the EGR valve, I recommend getting rid of the EGR.

You also need 8 injectors and an ECM, if you go with the speed density you will need a later model 90-92 ECM with the part number #1227730 . You will need a harness, Jims can make your harness for you and also custom burn your ECM PROM to meet you engine specs, gearing and tire size.

You will also need an electric fuel pump for a TPI unit capable of at least 45 psi, you need a 3/8" supply line and a 5/16 min return fuel line.

The ECM can be mounted behind your glove box, it can be programmed to turn on electric fans at a given temp, you just need to tell him what temps.

I recommend getting a good Mallory fuel pump, I have had heating problems with the inline pump, OR mount the pump in the tank, I may have to do that also.

I would go to EBAY and search for TPI and find the TPI swappers guide book, if you get the name Summitracing can get it for you and you don't need to mess with the ebay stuff. You will also need an Air filter, K&N makes a nice filter for the unit and Jims sells it..

This is the basic rundown of the system, if I can be of any other help just let me know. By the way I am not connected to Jims in any way they just had the best price around and the harness was good quailty and customer service was great.

Enjoy,

Mark
TPIJeep

I have also had GREAT service out of www.force-efi.com with the higher end parts I am running now, those guys do it all..

More cut and pasted stuff..

90-92 intake to older Chevy heads the solution

He is correct the 2 center bolt holes on the intake sides are not drilled at the correct angle, to correct this get a die grinder, dremel whatever and slot the holes, then you need to use big washers and silicone to seal it up. It sounds like a rig but it works, I know some engine builders that don't even put these bolts in so you don't need to get them real tight

Mass Air Flow size issues.

The Problem with the Mass Air sensor is that it is going to stick almost 12 inches in front of the Throttle body so you would have to do some tricky plumbing to make it work right.

You can see just 6" more and I am in the radiator. Make sure none of the bolts are broken off in the throttle body, there are several small allen head bolts that hold the top and bottom cover on the throttle body they are prone to breaking. Make sure there are no large dents in the runners, if there are bargin for a better price cause they are very pletiful on ebay. make sure the throttle cable bracket is there. Also not knowing the year model it is a good upgrade to ditch the old style HEI distributor and go with the small cap and external coil, its just a better design. If you look in my picture above you will see a small runner in between the bigger runners, notice at the base of the intake there is nothing there but a bolt, on the older models there will be a cold start injector, make sure he has the injector, I am not sure what side it is on but that is the location to look for it, the speed density models don't have a cold start injector

http://www.tpijeep.com/P8170016.JPG

Thats all I can find for now!!!

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
Do-it-yourself EFI

Hard to tell from the PIC, but Edelbrock uses a 4bbl throttle body from a carb, a victor jr intake and billet rails. the injectors that come with it are 28lb, Ive gone to 30lb pintle bosch.
with 35" tires and the 3 settings you can have, I run a setting for highway (a little lean), a city mode (slightly rich, for overheating issues) and a Hi idle mode for winching or Jumpstarting etc.
All of these modes are switched with the click of a screen mounted in the dash. I can get almost 18mpg on the highway with 35" SSRs and 4.56.

http://www.digitalflare.net/owl/images/Jeep%202MUCHXJ/Jeep%20Dash1.JPG

http://www.digitalflare.net/owl/images/Jeep%202MUCHXJ/Jeep%20Remote%20Oil.JPG

Originally posted by TPIJeep
I run a TPI 415 with a Accel Gen 7 Digital ECU, this thing is by far the most bad arse ECM by far. I used a intake and Throttle body from a 91 Camaro and aftermarket 31 lb injectors. The rest of the sensors are stock, this unit is running in Sequential Injection Mode so the injectors fire in the same order as the plugs. A stock TPI unit fires in Batches, so every injector on the right fire at the same time same thing for the left.

If your running a stock or very near stock 305 or 350 you will be fine with a reburned PROM from a stock ECM but if you get a little radical this Gen 7 box is the way to go.. You should see the looks when they see a Jeep on 40's doing dyno runs down the road while tweaking the fuel map with a laptop. :D

I plan on adding a Wide Band O2 sensor that will allow me to TELL the ECU what fuel air mixture I want at a given RPM and Load rather than having to tweak the settings to get them right.

I've checked out those accel's, kinda cool tuning on the fly. I do the prom burning though, takes more time but a whole cheaper. When I go 383 I might think about the accell though, would make it easier. Thats a good write up, I thought about doing one but always busy workin on the heep.

Owl... where did you get the air cleaner plenum doohickey >

Its a mix of a few things. Air Box is off a 88 Aerostar 3.0l, Tubing is from Home Depot, And the Air Cleaner Piece is from one of those Cheap cold air kits from Ebay. I bought one for a 92'-00' Dodge RAM pickem up. Fit Perfect No Mods, Also 88'-95' TBI Chevy kits work too.
the kit was 39.99 on Ebay. Fits 5-1/8" Carbs/Throttle bodies perfect. This is setup for a snorkel which you cant see
Hope this helps
\\hoot

i just bought a already injected 350. i bough a wrecked 99 chevy dually with a vortec 350 and it only had 15K miles on it. i used the trucks wiring and integrated it with my jeep cj's harness. i did swap the 99 computer with a 97 version to get rid of the vats system and it also did not require the need for the fuel tank pressure switch. some pin's had to be moved at the vcm connectors but other than that it worked. as for the fuel pump i run a in line pump for a 89 f150 that had a 351w.

Heres a better shot of my underhood.
BTW the fuel pump is a in-tank standard Holley. Has One O2 sensor, and the MAT (?) sensor is mounted in the Air intake
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/autopartsphotos/fuel_inj/3500_callouts.gif

http://www.digitalflare.net/owl/images/Jeep%202MUCHXJ/Jeep%20Back%20Low.JPG

Hope it helps, doesnt seem to be a popular thread :D
\\hoot

lets take engine pics :flipoff2:

here goes mine

my mecanic is finishig some details on lthe wiring

http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_b/286000-286999/286018_15_full.jpg

some more

http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_b/286000-286999/286018_13_full.jpg

and more
http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_b/286000-286999/286018_14_full.jpg

No engine degreaser sold in Chile ?

:flipoff2:

Is that the only icon u know?:rainbow: :flipoff:

I aways do my engine swaps in a parking lot double parked in front of a playground.. :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Least u got asphalt, I do mine on the front lawn next to the trailer

:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

:nuke: :smokin:

engine swaps ............

In my parking lot when its closed to the public .....:jeep2:

works .....on labour days it goes back to my garage:ghost:

http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/show_image.pl?image=member_img_b/286000-

http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_b/286000-286999/286018_16_full.jpg

http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/show_image.pl?image=member_img_b/286000

Well I'm also running the Edelbrock Pro-flo fuel injection and have been for almost 5 years with no real problems. Back when I was still doing highway driving with the CJ7 the best i got was 17-19mpg w/4.10s and 35s more typical was 14-16. I like the fact i can change anything from the passanger seat with the onboad module, spark, fuel, rev limiter, idle and it can flow up to a 1000cfm out of the box...Granted I would probably would not drop $2k again and just go with the cheap junk yard route because I don't need all the fun stuff...but it is nice :D

If you have the cash it is a nice no hassle package with the ability to program without anything else...

http://www.cj7jeep.com/engine/images/engine.jpg

How do you like your Pro-Flo setup?
I got mine in 1995. Swapped out the distributor last year for a hi dollar Billet piece and never got it run run like the used $15 distributor I first used to do the Hall effect conversion.
I was thinking about getting one of the new ones that has the Hall effect pieces on it from the factory. I think its MSD (or Holley) that selles emHave you moved your MAT sensor yet? Edelbrock Tech says this is one of the best mods you can do to it. Get it out of the Manifold and relocate it to the actual air flow.
I put mine in my homemade snorkel setup and now Air temp reads like outside air temps instead of 145+.

I have a 350 with a pretty hot cam in it about 350 - 375 hp. I got the manifold, comp and wiring off of a tbi 350. can I just slap the manifold on the engine with the cam or am I gonna have problems? Thanks

~Kirk

I may be a little late in the game...but here's an answer to the previous post...
You should be able to put the stuff you have on the engine with little or no trouble at all. The problem is gonna lie in the MAP sensor...if your TBI has one. MAP sensors don't like tall cams because a tall cam sends a pulsating vacuum signal at idle speed. You may find that the system tends to run a bit rich at times. My sister-in-law has an early 90's Z71 with a SBC 400, VERY tall cam, and a factory TBI system in it. It runs rich all the time. I have changed out everything except the MAP sensor. (That's next.) I have readjusted the TPS 4 times too.
Look on www.customefis.com. I think there is a solution to this problem there. Something about converting to Alpha-N control instead of MAP control.

If your over these cam specs your going to need some custom calibration for a chip or a programmable ECM.
maximum duration of 214o intake duration @ .050" and 224o exhaust duration @ .050"

There's a lot of other options for the Chevy motors:
http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/

Delco...Delco...Delco...there is no need for aftermarket pumps since delco makes everything you could possibly want and if your junk breaks on the trail just pick up a replacement from the parts store.
Pump Catalogue (http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/component_info/fuel_pumps.html)

Link no worky. I was hoping to find a pump catalog site like that.

I've been looking at the megasquirt for a while, but I think I'll go this way:

http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/

Software to change the GM program IIRC 87 to 91 TBI programs have been FULLY decoded, so the software knows EXACTLY where the data is hidding, and how to change it.

http://www.moates.net/

Here's the "black box" that reads, emulates, burns chips.

This route will get you several advantages like Full idle control like stock, and could pass CARB testing.

Napa part # for external pump #5001

You will not be happy with injection unless you program your own chip.. That simple. Otherwise you better stay as close to stock fuel injection configuration as possible. 214@.050 will cause big headaches with with large intake volume heads and big valves. So be careful here, you can run 214 if your just changing cams in a already designed injected motor.
The guy with 400 running rich is because there's low vacuum and the ECM thinks more fuel. N-Alpha is a racing system.
Programming yourself is easy for anyone on this site with average fab skills. Try:
www.tunercat.com
www.moates.net
www.dyiefi.com
Start here and read to get everything possible from the money you spent.

Sorry but, the guys with the Edelbrock Pro-Flo... It's junk and the cheap way out. To do injection right you'll spend $1500.00 to $2000.00

Here's a pic of my new motor. Stock 91 Vette configuration with a slight bump in compression and a roller cam with 210@.050. I'll bet it will require programming

About Running Hot Cams with Map sensors...

One trick I've read about which seems to fix using a map sensor (w/o running Alpha-N algorithm) and a pulsating vacuum (at idle) is to indirectly mount the map sensor to the motor. By this, I mean unscrew it and replace it with a tube coming off the manifold- say 1/8". Using fuel system parts, aquarium parts, whatever, at the end of the tube-- say the tube is only like 1 foot long, build a small "fuel filter" sized restrictor for the vacuum signal-- like a complete blockage with a pin-sized hole in it, and on the other side let the signal go back to the map sensor. As long as you make sure this restriction is as close to the sensor as possible, you have minimum pressure sensor lag and more importantly, the restrictor acts as a damper, smoothing out the signal at idle. Also, using the tube in front of the sensor/restrictor assembly doesnt have any sensor lag because it is big enough to flow quickly enough and show almost immediate pressure change-- as in an engine rev.