Scott, and anyone running them.

The only thing I'm unsure of and want to figure out before I buy the Rockstomper locks is this.

In the first pic you can see that the outer ring on the Rockstompers is flat - meaning as you tigten the bolts, it will begin to "tilt" as it squeezes the tires bead.

http://www.rockstomper.com/images/products/wheels/lockrings09.jpg


In contrast, Look at the second pic, and you can see how MRT use a "lazy Z" shape outer ring (in profile) so that the bolted surface will tighten flush to the inner ring while the Z accomodates the tires bead.

http://www.mrt-wheels.com/prodimages/standard_lock_diagram.jpg


Any comments appreciated - is it a concern...why?

Thanks
http://www.rockstomper.com/images/products/wheels/lockrings09.jpg

http://www.mrt-wheels.com/prodimages/standard_lock_diagram.jpg

The MRT style is better, due to the fact that you can tighten the bolt down until you have metal to metal between the wheel and the outer ring. If there is no relief for the lip of the tire then the gap between the ring and wheel can flex as different loads are excerted on it. This in some case will lead to, having the bolt heads snap off. The King racing beadlocks, used to do this all the time, it was a pain the ass. The Rock stomper ones seem like they have a fatter ring than the King racing version, but I would assume that the potential stress to the bolts may still be there.
Agressive Off-Road has a nice design, in that, they have an inner centering ring built onto the wheel, that sets the tire bead. then the outer ring is bolted to that. Its a very nice design, a little more work to install, but you end up with a tire that is very well centered on the wheel.

Jeff;

Any chance you could take a picture and post it showing the different locking design? If so, that would be great, thanks.

Chad

I would have to unbolt the entire ring.:eek:
Call Big Feck and see if he can post a pic for all to see on the board.

I have Bart's that have the same ring style as the MRT's. But I never get metal to metal contact like the picture shows before I hit the recommended torque specs on the bolts. And since the ring is WAY thinner that the Rockstomper one I really don't see a big deal. I would assume that every tire is a little bit different thickness in that area.

The thing that would concern me about the MRT Z design would be the varying tire bead differences. Like MattS said, if you happen to run a tire that has a thicker bead surface, it would essentially be the same as the Rockstomper design, the ring would not make metal-to-metal contact.

Just my $$

The biggest thing that concerns me about the rockstomper design is that the bolts don't clamp down on a flat surface. This puts a bit more stress in the bolts. I don't think it is a big deal though I am sure they are totally fine. Maybe Scot can explain why he makes the outer ring conical though it seems like it would be a lot cheaper and easier to just leave it flat. but maybe that would be more likely to cut the tire? I don't know, I guess if I knew the reason for the cone I probably wouldn't be concerned about it at all.

With the Rockstompers you could use a few washers for metal-to-metal contact. Vary the number and/or thickness of the washers for different thickness of tire beads.

You could test the number/thickness of the washers with 4 bolts at 12'oclock, 3 o'clock, 6o'clock, and 9o'clock, get it just right, then do the rest.

I have the MRT's, and if you run just about any Swamper tire you will NOT get the metal ring to tighten all the way down.


Seriously guys, some of you seem to be obsessing about something that is insignificant. Any of these designs work GREAT.

You do not need some machined surface to "center the tire" - it will basically self center on any of them.

Originally posted by BillaVista
http://www.mrt-wheels.com/prodimages/standard_lock_diagram.jpg

I wish my MRT's seated up that good. My ring is about 1/4" away from touching the inner ring. I figured its because of that fat sidewalls on my 38.5 TSL's.

Originally posted by Gordon
The biggest thing that concerns me about the rockstomper design is that the bolts don't clamp down on a flat surface. This puts a bit more stress in the bolts. I don't think it is a big deal though I am sure they are totally fine. Maybe Scot can explain why he makes the outer ring conical though it seems like it would be a lot cheaper and easier to just leave it flat. but maybe that would be more likely to cut the tire? I don't know, I guess if I knew the reason for the cone I probably wouldn't be concerned about it at all.

It IS flat. In another thread he explained that the reason it appears conical in some of the photos is that he torqued the shit out of it, severely overinflated the tire, and ran it hard this way trying to break something - and posted photos to illustrate this abuse. To me they look like the toughest locks available anywhere.

Originally posted by DRM
I have the MRT's, and if you run just about any Swamper tire you will NOT get the metal ring to tighten all the way down.


Seriously guys, some of you seem to be obsessing about something that is insignificant. Any of these designs work GREAT.

You do not need some machined surface to "center the tire" - it will basically self center on any of them.


DRM has spoken, he is pleased with the particular design he is now running,.... so now there is no more room for improvement.:rolleyes:
Everyone walk away from your drawing boards.

Contrary to your own opinion, that you know absolutely everything about everything, yes there are a few ways to improve upon the current MRT design.
My MRT although also contrary to your rock solid observations, did bolt down steel to steel after about the 3 rd time out wheeling and retorquing the bolts. That was with SX and SSR Swampers.
But the MRT's do not self center themselves that well, and are hard to get ballanced. With the Aggressive Off-Road design, my 38.50 SX feel better than they ever have, on the road, and that is with no ballancing done to them.
Sheesh, buy a guy a set of wheels and now he's expert on evaluating all beadlock designs.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Lloyd


It IS flat. In another thread he explained that the reason it appears conical in some of the photos is that he torqued the shit out of it, severely overinflated the tire, and ran it hard this way trying to break something - and posted photos to illustrate this abuse. To me they look like the toughest locks available anywhere.

Cool thanks for straightening me out. That makes a lot more sense.

Wow H8 - you buy a set of wheels and now YOU act like YOU are the expert :rolleyes:


My MRT's let the tire center up just fine, sorry you found it so difficult to do the same.


So how about you try thinking logically here.. can you handle that? :p

If that outer ring is able to tighten all the way down metal to metal - that means *if* the tire bead is too thin, you will NOT get a good seal.. you ever think about that? When it's metal to metal, you can't tighten them down any further - so what is your answer for that?

But hey, you are the expert, I obviously don't know anything :rolleyes:

You know what H8 - do us all a favor and don't reply. I am sure others would rather you just give your opinion without the commentary on mine, is that too much to ask?

I gave my opinion, you whined about my opinion thyen gave your own. Seems pretty clear who is out of line here.....




BillaVista, My point simply was that contrary to the diagrams shown on the MRT site, many tires have too thick a bead for the MRT outer ring to be able to be tightened down flush with the inner welded on ring surface. Because of that, I found that for people like me who run boggers for example - that "step-down" surface is completely irrelevant.

I will soon be needing a set of 8 lug beadlocks to replace my 6 lug MRT's, and I have no problem with Rockstomper's design - I am confident enough that I intend to purchase some of them for my own use.

Hope that helps :)

I have ran them both, DRM, thats why I can c omment on both designs. But as usual you get bent out of shape when you get called on the fact that you dont know what the hell you are talking about.:crybaby2:

OK, I don't have MRT's so I could well be talking out my ass here (and If so I'm sure that someone will let me know :flipoff2: :flipoff2: ) but it appears to me that they center the inside of the tire's bead on the step in the ring. Champions center the inside of the tire's bead on a step that happens to be located on the rim, not the ring. Rockstompers use the ring to locate the bead, but instead of a step, they use the outer edge of the ring to index against the bead's SHOULDER. As for deformation of the ring, it's substantial in some of Scott's photos when he used an impact wrench to try to break something. At normal levels of clamping force it's very small.

Originally posted by H8monday
I have ran them both, DRM, thats why I can c omment on both designs. But as usual you get bent out of shape when you get called on the fact that you dont know what the hell you are talking about.:crybaby2:


Don't know what I am talking about? You just got your new set of beadlocks, don't act like you are some veteran beadlock technical expert on their every design and function :rolleyes:

Keep the whining coming... further dilute this thread with your :crybaby2: about me instead of actually talking about beadlocks :roleyes:

As for thinking you are somehow putting me in my place - what I have said is FACT... if you've got info to prove it wrong, stop whining and share it. Otherwise, get off your high horse....

I 'm done with your petty childish bitching... good luck BillaVista with whatever beadlock you chose :)

Originally posted by Lloyd
OK, I don't have MRT's so I could well be talking out my ass here (and If so I'm sure that someone will let me know :flipoff2: :flipoff2: ) but it appears to me that they center the inside of the tire's bead on the step in the ring. Champions center the inside of the tire's bead on a step that happens to be located on the rim, not the ring. Rockstompers use the ring to locate the bead, but instead of a step, they use the outer edge of the ring to index against the bead's SHOULDER. As for deformation of the ring, it's substantial in some of Scott's photos when he used an impact wrench to try to break something. At normal levels of clamping force it's very small.


It also helps with seating the tire to put a small amount of clean grease on the tire bead, to allow it to move around without binding durring the tightening of the beadlock bolts.
I will wait for a pic of the Aggressive Off Road design, to be posted as it will speak for itself. Its a pretty slick design.

Looking forward to seeing them. :)

I prefer the MTR style. Champion also uses the metal on metal idea, here's a picture of a Champion wheel:
http://www.dandcextreme.com/buildup/pro3/image/day4tiresb.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/buildup/pro3/image/day4tiresd.jpg

Check out the weld as well - VERY clean
http://www.dandcextreme.com/buildup/pro3/image/day4tirescl.jpg

As usual, many many thanks to all for your opinions and experience.

I have decided to order the Rockstomper as soon as I have the $$ in the bank.

The cheap, tough, DIY approach suits my Jeep and I to a T, even if it's not the most precise.

When I weld them on myself, my welds will, of course, be just as purty as those Champions :D :D

I'm sure all the others are also very good designs, and heck....any beadlock is better than no beadlock, right! :)

Thanks again

I have the MRTs, and mine have about a 1/4" gap with my Swampers.

Pete

Originally posted by Gordon
The biggest thing that concerns me about the rockstomper design is that the bolts don't clamp down on a flat surface. This puts a bit more stress in the bolts.

We recommend torqueing the bolts no higher than 20 ft-lb. The ring will start to "cone" at about 35.

As for "why don't you make the ring have metal-to-metal contact" stuff... we wanted a beadlock that'd actually fit all the different tires we might run... from a 31" General Grabber (hey, everybody needs gas mileage sometimes) to a 44" Bogger. Putting a metal support or similar in there, limits what bead thicknesses you can run. Put in a thick one, to match, say, a Bogger, and you've gotta over-torque the thing to make it seat and seal on the Grabber (reverse coning it). Put in a thin one (to match the Grabber) and you cone it to fit a Bogger.

Bottom line is, don't torque 'em past 20 ft-lb, and we haven't seen any coning at all. It's when they're torqued to full stall on the air ratchet (no, I'm not kidding, and yes, I do know that's nowhere near what an impact wrench will do), at around 40-50 ft-lb (twice-plus what's recommended for any beadlock), they'll cone a bit. Still haven't broken 'em... I guess that's 'cause I've got too many bolts. :)

Speaking of too many bolts... anybody know where the DOT specs are on what it takes to "test" a rim, for DOT compliance? I think, with this many bolts... these might make it. But I can't find the rules. :(

Extreme closeup (with apologies to Wayne and Garth) of a rim with button heads, and proper (20 ft-lb) torque.

http://www.rockstomper.com/images/products/wheels/beadlock17.jpg

Still doesn't leak, doesn't cone, doesn't unseat, stays centered, all that jazz. I even (finally) took my own set apart, cleaned 'em up, and painted 'em.

Scott,

That's a kick butt picture - thanks.

You mentioned at one time the price would go up "sometime". Can you confirm that it won't be before Christmas?

My mind is made up, and I will be ordering soon....but I may have to wait till Grandma sends my Christmas cheque :)

Oh - one more thing - waht are your thoughts on the different bolt styles? I'm thinking the regular for price and easy replacement....but will I hate myslef later if I don't get the countersunk? Could I countersink the regualr style later if I have a problem with shearing bolt heads?

Thanks

I was just wondering about the kit for aluminum wheels. It looks like the aluminum ring uses threaded inserts of some kind in each of the holes to keep the threads from pulling out. Is that right? Also, I was wondering if it would be possible to get the aluminum rings made out of something thicker than 1/4". The wheels I would like to put them on are do not have the lip sitting very far out, and there isn't much dish to them, so I don't know if there would be room for the bolts to pass through the aluminum ring. Thanks for any insight on these questions.

BV, I'll confirm that the price will remain the same through at least the end of '01. After that, I dunno... the threaded inserts are the biggest problem. Right now, we're having trouble getting them in the quantities we need at less than a dollar apiece (no, I'm not kidding) so if those problems continue, the price will have to reflect it eventually. I've personally spent three days so far searching all over (physically, web, and on the phone) trying to find a less expensive insert that's still just as durable, and just as maintainable (easy to put in or take out in case you mess it up) as these, and that we can get reliably.

As for bolt style, here's the deal with what we do.

The rings come in from the CNC house. If they get button head or hex head bolts, the outers stay as is. The inners (of course) get welded to wheels and/or shipped out as-is; if we weld 'em, we pop in the inserts too, if they ship out as a kit, the inserts ship uninstalled (to keep weld splatter out of the threads). We ship extra inserts just in case, since the install is cake, but it's possible to screw up a couple. We give you 35 per wheel, you need 32. The first one of these I ever did, I hosed all of one insert; I didn't mess up any on the next seven wheels that I did.

The countersunk outer rings, get countersunk in house. A cheapo countersink bit, costs about $10-15, and will do a full set. It'll be pretty well toast after that, but it'll do 'em. If you decide further on down the road that you want countersunk bolts, you can countersink the rings yourself, and get the bolts either from us or from any industrial fastener house.

So the direct answer on countersinking, is yes, you can countersink 'em later; we do it all the time here. The rings all start out life the same.

As for which bolt head style to use... it's kind of a personal preference thing. I look at it from a trail damage perspective. With the hex heads, if you really mangle 'em bad, you can probably get vise grips on 'em. If they're worse than that, you can grind off the heads and use vise grips on the stud part. The button heads, are less likely to get messed up, but if they do, you have to grind the heads off. The countersunk ones, are the toughest to mess up, but also the toughest to remove if you do. I have yet to mess one up that bad, but if you (theoretically) do, you'll have to drill out the head of it. Not fun. I run the countersunk ones on my own truck now, but I was very happy with the button heads before we decided to go all the way to offering countersunk heads. With the rings black and the black heads on the countersunk bolts, it's a mix of "burly" and "stealth". I like it. :)

TA, if the bolt clearance is tight enough to where you don't have room to let the bolts go through the inner ring... those wheels probably aren't a good candidate for our beadlocks. There's just no good way to do it without making them from about 1" thick aluminum plate, to keep the bolts entirely within the plate.

Problem is, when you first start the bolts, you need minimum 1.5" long bolts, to get 'em started. But once they're all snugged down and the bead is clamped firmly in place, you only need 1" to 1.25" bolts to hold it in place. With Swampers, it's difficult to start the bolts if they're less than 1.75" long, because the beads are thick and the sidewalls are stiff. But once you snug 'em down, there's a half inch or more thread sticking past the lock ring surface.

What you'd end up needing to do, would be to partially snug down the lock ring with longer bolts, then progressively swap to shorter and shorter bolts as you snug it down. Not the easiest thing to do, and far from a quick trail fix if you cut up a tire really bad. I've also seen guys do similar stuff with C-clamps to squash the bead lock rings together in order to get the bolts started.

That said, the bolts and inserts and whatnot, fit within a 14.25" circle, and you need about 5/8" or so on the backside of the ring, clearance available to pop the inserts and thread the bolts. So if your wheels have a 14.25" wide dish on the outside, that's 5/8" deep, the lock rings will fit.

Originally posted by Snoopy
I prefer the MTR style. Champion also uses the metal on metal idea, here's a picture of a Champion wheel:
http://www.dandcextreme.com/buildup/pro3/image/day4tiresb.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/buildup/pro3/image/day4tiresd.jpg

Check out the weld as well - VERY clean
http://www.dandcextreme.com/buildup/pro3/image/day4tirescl.jpg

Snoopy, you the man!

Can you take a couple more shots of your rims with the lock ring
removed?? side-view shots/ profile shots??? purty please??

thanks.

--Sherpa

Hey Scott is it possible for you to make me a send out kit for 20" Rims? if so please post, I am looking for a affordable way to beadlock my rims.
Don

Not sure how much the Rockstomper ones are, but I paid 65.00US for mine and they are a weld on style like the other.
Inner and outer ring are steel. Mine also don't clap down, but I also run 38's.
:)

Don, yes, we can make up a set to fit 20" rims. They'll be quite a bit more expensive, but we can do it. Probably on the order of twice as much. But just think, you'll be the only guy on your block with 20" beadlock wheels.... :) Turnaround would probably be on the order of a few weeks to a month, too... just FYI.

Mudlite, howsabout a name/address/email/phone number source and some more info? I've spilled just about everything there is to know about ours, I'm sure somebody is interested to know what you've got, not just a price.

Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper
Don, yes, we can make up a set to fit 20" rims. They'll be quite a bit more expensive, but we can do it. Probably on the order of twice as much. But just think, you'll be the only guy on your block with 20" beadlock wheels.... :) Turnaround would probably be on the order of a few weeks to a month, too... just FYI.

Mudlite, howsabout a name/address/email/phone number source and some more info? I've spilled just about everything there is to know about ours, I'm sure somebody is interested to know what you've got, not just a price.


Hmmmmmmmmm.......Company was called Pro Pit, but there web page isn't up any more? I got them from the Offroad.com site.
I would guess that they would be equal to the JC Witney style ones. I am not saying that your are no good, just giving people more options.:D

Originally posted by mudlite
Hmmmmmmmmm.......Company was called Pro Pit, but there web page isn't up any more? I got them from the Offroad.com site.
I would guess that they would be equal to the JC Witney style ones. I am not saying that your are no good, just giving people more options.:D

Exactly. More options is a good thing; if it wasn't, we wouldn't have developed our own, we'd have just bought somebody else's.

JC Whitney has beadlocks?

I wasn't taking it as that ours are inferior, too expensive, or whatever else... I'm always up for comparison shopping.

Well, FWIW, Those that know me know I'm an obsessive researcher, and I have spent a couple of months researching every kind of beadlocks there are

Racing weld on kits like Bart and BRP.
Custom jobs like Stockton and Willamete
Champions, Trailready, MRT, Eaton, Allied
Racing wheels by Basset, Excel, Bart and Diamond.

I've researched specs, talked to owners, been to the race car shops, surfed the web.....

And my choice is the Rockstomper hands down...

Cheap, DIY, Brutal, Strong, and no apologies.....PERRRRRFECT for me and my truck.

And also - Scott has spent lots of time patiently answering all our questions frankly and honestly, no excuses, no apologies, just the facts - you don't find that just anywhere.

I'll be ordering mine soon...........(C'mon with the Xmas cheque already, Grandma!):D

Check out TrailReady at http://www.trailready.com/bead_lock_wheels.htm

Being used by some in ARCA. :D

Originally posted by dncswrk
Check out TrailReady at http://www.trailready.com/bead_lock_wheels.htm

Being used by some in ARCA. :D

Call me crazy (no, really) but since he has been talking about saving $$$ throughout this whole thread, I am pretty sure high $$$$ beadlocks like the TR ones are out of the question :p

Only familiar with Champion beadlocks on my buddies Class 8 truck. Not sure why but we only have failures of the bolts when mounting and we always try to use a torque wrench. Its possible we are overtorqueing with the torque wrench since we tend to use anti-seize on the bolts. I think it may be because the Goodyear "yellow label" MTR's (racing version of the ones you buy at the store) have a super thick bead (seems thicker than any of my Swampers or MT's on my off road trucks and even thicker than my 17" Project T/A's and these have a 4 ply radial sidewall)--sidewall is thicker than my Swamper bias tires and these are radials to give you an idea. Once they are torqued down we have no problems. Will break 35 spline axles or shear the 5/8" Nascar studs before we have any problems with the beadlock bolts! Point is the Champion set up works for us and this truck puts alot more power and stress to the tires than most any normal non-racing off road application would.

Jason :)

Could you work me out a price then Scott, would it be beneficial to beadlock both inner and outer beads, does anybody have problems with popping beads with just the outer bead locked? I am planning on running 1-2psi in some conditions.
Scott you can email me at taradon@uniserve.com

Originally posted by taradon
Could you work me out a price then Scott, would it be beneficial to beadlock both inner and outer beads, does anybody have problems with popping beads with just the outer bead locked? I am planning on running 1-2psi in some conditions.

Okay, yep, I emailed you... they're *spendy*.
Anyway, yes, we can do them to fit 20" wheels.
And as for locking both beads, well... a 20" wheel is about the minimum you'd need to run, to clear an inner beadlock around a set of brakes. You can lock both beads, but it'll add gobs of weight (probably on the order of 50 pounds per wheel, vs. about half that for just one) and take forever to assemble.

All the 20" wheels I've ever played with personally, have been tube type, not tubeless. If you're running tubes, the only reason for beadlocking at all, would be to keep the tire from spinning on the rim, and ripping the stem out of the tube... if that's the case, you don't need more than one bead locked. If you're running tubeless, I can see a need to lock both (that's why the military runs those three-piece beadlock/runflat wheels) beads into place, but it'll be heavier than sin, and more expensive, too.

Originally posted by DRM


Call me crazy (no, really) but since he has been talking about saving $$$ throughout this whole thread, I am pretty sure high $$$$ beadlocks like the TR ones are out of the question :p

They are $199 each for 15", cheaper than most of the others.

Prices get steeper for larger rims.

Its possible we are overtorqueing with the torque wrench since we tend to use anti-seize on the bolts.

Not a possibility, an absolute certainty, providing the torque spec is for clean dry threads, which every torque spec I ever heard of is.

Call me crazy (no, really)

You're crazy :D

They are $199 each for 15", cheaper than most of the others.

We obviously have different ideas of what cheap is. And $75 beats the hell out of 199 any day. Heck, apples to apples, 125 beats 199 any day...but the whole point is Scott made these just for guys like me who want to keep their wheels and DIY.

I know I will get flamed for this but my question is wouldnt you beable to run a chrome rim with the Rockstompers? As :rainbow: as it is I like chrome wheels way more than painted and it seems to me the heat effected area would be minimal with Scotts design and the chrome for the most part will be fine. Scott I went to your site but I didnt find the individual lock price. Could you e-mail it to me for 15s and the base model no recessed heads or special bolts.Thanks

Originally posted by wheelinjp
I know I will get flamed for this but my question is wouldnt you beable to run a chrome rim with the Rockstompers?

Yes. You'll need to grind or blast off the chrome where you'll be welding, but it's relatively minimal; the chrome that you can actually see with a tire installed, will be unaffected, unless you're really really really sloppy with the weld splatter.

Scott I went to your site but I didnt find the individual lock price. Could you e-mail it to me for 15s and the base model no recessed heads or special bolts.

Basic 15's with hex head bolts are $75 per; that's per lock kit; you'll need one lock kit per wheel you want to beadlock.

I have eatons and have had air in them for months and have had no leakage. $124.00 a piece and they work fine. Yes any beadlock is better than no beadlock. The rockstompers are sweet though.