Anti-wrap ideas???

[jeepguy553]

Sorry if I am digging up an old thread subject. I am about to get the ported and polished haeds back from the machine shop and I am afraid that my already-bad rear spring wrap problem is gonna get worse when I get the engine back together (bored AMC 360, Summit cam, Edelbrock Performer intake, dual exhaust thru 3" pipes, Holley ProJection 2D)
What kinds of solutions have you guys come up with before? This seems to be the place to come for wild-ass ideas that freakin' work. I can't find anything other than copies of the M.O.R.E. set-up and the BamBar from www.jeepaholics.com
Any ideas? I gotta get rid of the spring wrap before I end up breaking one...or both of 'em.
Thankis in advance!!!!! Have a :beer:

[EasyXJ]

I know you haven't used the search button cuz you woulda seen several different designs. Go to the Tech page and check out Bill's writeup, it has an excellent link in it.

Easy

[WheelingPiazza]

Did you even bother todo a search?

Here let me do it for you..

Simple search on AntiWrap

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142410&highlight=AntiWrap

What about a web search?

http://www.sams4x4store.com/Traction%20Bar.jpg

[Maine Jeepah]

FWIW I made my own version of the "Sams offroad" type bar.
The reason I used this design is it was super cheap for me to make it, and its pretty much bombproof (all 1.5" OD x1" ID tube), and VERY simple.

Works excellent on the pass side of the axle on an SOA CJ. (258)

I would imagine as long as the axle mount is beefy enough there would be no issues even with a high HP motor under the hood.

HTH

MJ

[WheelingPiazza]

O I forgot to add, I made my own design like sam patton as well

360,sm420 etc..

[jeepguy553]

I'm kinda new to this idea, so keep the flames to a minimum please...
What keeps the shackle from moving front to back..or is it supposed to move front to back? I can see how the shackle would absorb the axle rotation forces. Is front to back movement allowed to keep axle articulation?

[ryankopecki]

Originally posted by jeepguy553
Is front to back movement allowed to keep axle articulation?

yes

[zachv]

I know I sent 'ya here, but I thought you were gonna search first. Welcome to hell.

The shackle is designed to keep necessary front to rear axle movement to follow the movement in the springs as they articulate.

I know that you are looking for some off-the-wall new idea, but the Sam's bar is pretty much proven.

[jeepguy553]

Cool...so what kind of stuff is involved in fabbing up the Sam's bar? Do the above pics pretty much sum it up? Like I said, I am a fairly poor grad student and funds are definitely at a premium here...but I don't want to cut costs at the expense of safety either.
I seriously appreciate all the help.
Oh yeah...I have gotten so used to the SEARCH not working on other forums that I didn't even bother to look for the button. I'll use it next time so I don't get bombed.
EDIT: Shit, I see what you mean now! This is the Sam's bar?
http://www.sams4x4store.com/Traction%20Bar.jpg
Cool! I think I can manage that. The other bar that is in the above links...is that the crossmember that the actual traction bar mounts to? I have a couple of ideas on that as well...I think I can actually do this with stuff I have sitting in the in-laws' backyard and in my storage room!
You guys kick ass!!!

[Todd W]

I have a ladder bar setup on my YJ and it works fine.

Make sure you know how to weld cuz if you don't weld the brackets on your axle right you will rip them off!!

[Kyle Frazier]

Make sure you know how to weld cuz if you don't weld the brackets on your axle right you will rip them off!!

Amen! I ripped mine right off as soon as I hit the trail. To add insult to injury, After the axle mount was rewelded, I ripped the shackle mount off.

Yeah, I am still learning to weld

[jeepguy553]

I'll get my father-in-law to help out on that one. He is a welder for a construction contractor here and he has PLENTY of stuff laying around that he can use to weld the brackets to the 9" axle housing. I could probably do it, but I'd feel better if he did it.
BTW...I love the avatar...what a slut!!! Sluts are cool....uhhh huh huh huh. I just wish she didn't have that right hand where it is.

[rkcrawl]

Originally posted by 94YJGuy
I have a ladder bar setup on my YJ and it works fine.

Make sure you know how to weld cuz if you don't weld the brackets on your axle right you will rip them off!!

I am glad somebody saved that diagram!

[Todd W]

Originally posted by rkcrawl


I am glad somebody saved that diagram!

Ya I save all the cool and useful info!

Soon will have a website up of all useful pics, and of all the stuff people request.. like "show me a pic of ____"

:D

[B-rock]

I just installed this one in my jeep last week 100 $ traction bar (http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Anti_wrap_bar/antiwrapbar.htm) . PM. me if you want the details. I have a few modifications to make it cleanner and stronger.

[Todd W]

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Anti_wrap_bar/Dcp_2131.jpg


In this picture it looks like your traction bar is connected indivually in each corner....... instead of both right sides, and both left sides... :confused:

[B-rock]

I bought the axle brackets from M.O.R.E. Looks a lot stronger and cleaner then what was used in the pic.

[Todd W]

Gotcha - :)

[jeepguy553]

I saw that set up too. That's kinda what I had in mind, but someone said that the toplinks wouldn't hold up for long. I think I could "obtain" some toplinks from a tractor I know of. The top links are about 24" eye to eye. I'd have to go measure how long the traction bar would have to be. I think we could MIG weld that together and then make a crossmember up out of some 2" X 2" that is laying around.
Now that I think about it...that 2" x 2" square tubing would make a pretty good traction bar too.

[ccj8008]

Anyone ever try using an arched leaf spring instead, in place of a solid link bar? It would damp some of the rotational torque, but perhaps wouldn't be so harsh. Just a thought.

[High5]

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Anti_wrap_bar/Dcp_2131.jpg

do not build your bar like this. the bottom bar should come all the way upso the bar is shaped like the sam's bar. with it designed like in htepic you will put the rotational force where the bottom bar meets the top one in hte center and it WILL bend.

[jeepguy553]

That's why that guy was saying the toplinks wouldn't work. I can't believe I missed that! I think I just might be getting some toplinks...after I pay out the ass for my cylinder heads. How much should a couple of toplinks run me if I can't "procure" them from other sources?
For some reason, it seems to make sense to me that the bottom part of that bar would work best if it were parallel to the driveshaft. Am I fucked up?

[Todd W]

High5- How long did it take to bend your bar like that? Or are you just saying "it will bend" ?? Curious.. And did it bend from force or from landing on it?

My Bar (http://www.4x4help.com/sale/6.jpg)

Is built similiar to the one pictured (the way bottom bar is setup), and it hasn't bent yet... it is .250 thick, and I have drug it across rocks (from traction bar to axle...dragging axle over rock) and sudden hits when gassing it to go... no dents yet...

Also have dropped the clutch several times with 42" Tires and Heavy Hummer Beadlocks, as well as with my 38.5" SXs and it's not bending there yet.... I worry about ripping the shackle mount off my crossmember.. more than bending that tube....

Thanks

[jeepguy553]

Your bar is made just like the one in the other pic, but from what I can tell, it is made of metal that is a good bit beefier than the toplinks. What did you make it out of?

[High5]

Originally posted by 94YJGuy
High5- How long did it take to bend your bar like that? Or are you just saying "it will bend" ?? Curious.. And did it bend from force or from landing on it?

My Bar (http://www.4x4help.com/sale/6.jpg)

Is built similiar to the one pictured (the way bottom bar is setup), and it hasn't bent yet... it is .250 thick, and I have drug it across rocks (from traction bar to axle...dragging axle over rock) and sudden hits when gassing it to go... no dents yet...

Also have dropped the clutch several times with 42" Tires and Heavy Hummer Beadlocks, as well as with my 38.5" SXs and it's not bending there yet.... I worry about ripping the shackle mount off my crossmember.. more than bending that tube....

Thanks

i built one several years ago in the similar fasion it was made from 1.25" solid stainless. it bent where the lower bar met the top bar.

[jeepguy553]

I may be smoking crack, but isn't a solid bar actually easier to bend than a piece of pipe that is the same diameter? That's why things like driveshafts are hollow isn't it? The pipe walls effectively have a larger x-sectional area for force distribution.

[B-rock]

There are several reasons why I went with the "rod end style setup", this will allow a lot of articulation between the axle and the frame without causing any bind, and it is adjustable if I decide to change my spring height. (One thing I plan on doing in the future).
I needed to lengthen the top piece so cut that one in half. Then I welded a piece of pipe inside both sections and welded a piece of pipe the same diameter as the center section over that piece. My bottom support intersects this joint just foreword of the middle section, and is placing the load over a larger area then many I have seen. I believe this to be overly built for what I am going to be doing. I am SOA but with the stock 4.0L and no bigger then 35" tires. I will try and get some picks so you can understand how I did my setup better. All welding was done with stick by the way.

[jeepguy553]

I'm SOA too, but with a fairly stout 360 under the hood. I'd like to see your setup to...maybe I could adapt it to my CJ. This engine has already torn up one tranny (T-4...imagine that) and one axle (AMC 20) along with two driveshafts. It puts out a LOT of torque and could probably bend a less-than-adequate anti-wrap bar really easily.
Here's the engine specs:
AMC 360 +0.030" overbore
Ported and polished heads, stainless steel valves, 5-angle intake, radius exhaust
Stock exhaust manifolds (gasket matched to heads) with 3" dual pipes
Edelbrock Performer manifold, gasket matched to heads
Summit Racing 8600 cam
Holley ProJection 2D TBI system, 670cfm
Accel 300+ racing ignition and Accel TFI coil and 8.5mm wires
This engine is quite strong, so any bar I decide to build will have to be able to stand up to a lot of abuse. The TF727 tranny MIGHT slip 5% if that much...it's set for "KILL" if ya know what I mean. The next driveline mod I have planned is the addition of the 9" Ford rear end with 4.10 gears. I already have a 3" CV rear driveshaft...the front driveshaft has to be replaced because it won't work with the TF727/D300 combo...I need a 2-piece front shaft. While I am putting the 9" in, I'll fab up the traction bar to go with it.

[TexasBlake]

I see lots of traction bars that use a johnny type joint on the axle side. I would assume that a rod end would be better because it won't allow the binding and possible tearing of the bushing unde extreme articulation.

What are people's reasons on using a johnny joint?

[B-rock]

One thing you can do is take a look at what the drag car's are using. Are there any local speed shops around there??? I have a street/strip car that has a big block in it. I run rear coils so i am not having to deal with axle wrap too much. However all the leaf spring cars have to deal with it just like the leaf sprung jeeps. If you are concerned about strenght i would take a look at what they use. Now usually they have a ladder bar on both sides of the pumpkin. However I guarantee if you can adapt something they use To launch a 3500 pound car with a tranny break behind a big block engine at about4000 RPM off the line it will hold up to your 360 with gears,

One thing i wanted to do is keep my lower bar out of the rocks and such. SO That is ONE reason why i did not have it mate up to the top bar at the cross member point. Right now the lower bar is just about the same angle as my drive line. and welded on just front of half way on the top bar.

It also comes down to price, I am into my whole setup at 100 bucks, Yes it is not the strongest however i beleve it is strong enough especially for what i paid for it. M.O.R.E. sells a very strong looking setup for about twice what i have in mine. Building mine was a lot more fun then buying it, hoping it will work whithout making adjustments and throwing it on.

If you want to make it yourself and are affraid you might bend it go get yourself some DOM or chrome molly. place gussets everywhere and be done with it. :flipoff2:

[jeepguy553]

Originally posted by B-rock
launch a 3500 pound car with a tranny break behind a big block engine at about4000 RPM off the line it will hold up to your 360 with gears, ]
Yup...too bad there isn't a speed shop here that is worth a shit...unless you call O'Reilly's Auto Parts a speed shop. There may be a decent speed shop here, but I haven't found it yet. There ARE a lot of places to get crap like chain steering wheels and nude lady license plate frames...and of course the shops that cater to the ricer crowd with stupid shit like neon lights for the inside and outside of said ricer car...and fake NOS kits...and stereos that put out more horsepower than the damn engine. :flipoff:
EDIT: Forgot about the hydraulic suspension kits for the Cadillacs and Chevys...another :flipoff:


Building mine was a lot more fun then buying it, hoping it will work whithout making adjustments and throwing it on.
Amen to that, bro! I probably have enough crap laying around that I could fab up 2 or 3 bars...just gotta get it all in one place at the same time.

[jeepguy553]

Okay...heres' the idea I came up with. Any comments, changes, or suggestions are welcome. I'll use some nice and beefy c-channel to mount the thing to the axle.
Please forgive my ignorance, but WTF is a johnny joint?
Two pieces of 1.5" DOM welded up at the right angle. A piece of 1/2" plate welded inside the two for a gusset. Each end will have either a spring eye bushing or a johnny joint (once I find out what that is) for the end connections. All welds will be either MIG or stick. I have about given up on the tractor toplinks. That just looks like it is a bad idea.

[Recurve]

Originally posted by jeepguy553
I may be smoking crack, but isn't a solid bar actually easier to bend than a piece of pipe that is the same diameter? That's why things like driveshafts are hollow isn't it? The pipe walls effectively have a larger x-sectional area for force distribution.

If I remember correctly, to calculate the strength of a hollow bar your calculations essentially sum it as a solid bar and then delete the hollow part (to get the area). So, a solid bar is stronger than a hollow bar of the same diameter.
I think where you get results is where you use the same coss sectional area of material but make it larger diameter and hollow as opposed to a solid bar. For instance a 2'x2"x.120 wall bar would be stronger than a .47"x2' solid bar which is the same area as the 2"x.120. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

[jeepguy553]

I know that it takes more force to twist a hollow shaft than a solid shaft. I can't remember exactly how to explain it, but it has something to do with cross sectional area.
Either way, I had better get something built up because I just got the engine crane from a friend of mine. Now I can actually put my engine back together the right way instead of trying to torque heads down with the engine in the Jeep. Pulling them out was bad enough...getting them back in would be next to impossible.
This beotch is gonna scream!!!! :flipoff2:

[Nomorejagermeister]

jeepguy553, whats your estimated HP and torque? and how does the pro-jection handle it all? id like to inject a fairly stout 401 in my cj7.

[withamc]

Originally posted by jeepguy553
I know that it takes more force to twist a hollow shaft than a solid shaft.
That probably explains all those hollow axle shafts out there :flipoff2:

[jeepguy553]

The ProJection works wonderfully. Desktop Dyno 2000 put my HP and torque at 379 hp and 399 lb-ft. Holley says 670 cfm won't feed that much hp...I think they're full of shit.

[Maine Jeepah]

FWIW heres a pic of my aforementioned antiwrap bar.
Driveshaft is disco-ed for flat towing.
1/4" plate for the axle tube mounts, whateverthfawk size tube for spring eye bushings for the axle end mounts top and bottom.
Not seen in the pic is a tractor toplink grafted to the 1.5" OD 1" ID DOM that I used, connected to a homemade shackle mounted via another spring eye bushing to my flat skid.
The vertical bars are 5/8" round stock I had kicking around.

Works great so far...noticeable gain in "torque" from a start on the street...so I am assuming it is controlling wrap.

Hard to tell in the pic but it is definitely up out of the way.

The mount is going to get chopped a bit to smooth out the transition on the tube so it will drag over stuff easier.


MJ

[Mo]

Originally posted by jeepguy553
I may be smoking crack, but isn't a solid bar actually easier to bend than a piece of pipe that is the same diameter? That's why things like driveshafts are hollow isn't it? The pipe walls effectively have a larger x-sectional area for force distribution.

no.

Strength to weight ratio is higher on the hollow tube, but for any given diameter, the solid will be stronger.


Now, no more on this part, it's been beaten to death. The problem is that it's a vampire topic - it just won't die.