What's the magic number for Wheel base? Is there one? I kinda like the shorter wheel base advantages but how short is too short? Who thinks they have the hot ticket, I can't seem to get comfortable with the fact that I'm the only one in crew that has to throttle out of end over rolls atleast once a weekend. Who wants to let me in? Lets hear if you think you have it?

I see you nasties lurking, post some sh*t! What up?

IMHO its 100", my rig fell 1.5 inches short...DAMMMMMIT!:D

100" seems common, I saw a few that liked 100". My Scout is 100" but I've never wheeled the Scout like the Sammy. Whats the wheel Base on some of the Jeeps?

jeep s came in (76 and up):

cj5=84
cj7=94
cj8=104

when i lengthened my cj5 i thought about 104 but i wasnt't sure so i went with 100" because it was a nice even number. i have been very pleased with it over the 5's stock wheelbase. it is alot more stable and it climbs alot better. the only down side is turing radius and breakover angle. that said i'd never go back. as i have said on here before i know a couple of guys running 97" wb on their sami's and they love it. it makes the climbs around here alot easier. :D

Originally posted by fatkid
100" seems common, I saw a few that liked 100". My Scout is 100" but I've never wheeled like the Sammy. Whats the wheel Base on some of the Jeeps?

I checked around some of the sites and here's what I found. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but here are the numbers.

CJ5 - 81-84"
CJ6 - 101"
CJ7 - 93"
CJ8 - 103"
YJ - 93.5"
TJ - 93.5"
Cherokee - 101"
Grand Cherokee - 106"
Liberty - 104"

These are some good numbers, anyone know the Toyota wheel bases?

Incontrol knows the toy ones for sure, but I think the shotest where around 104, and the long ones where around 112.

Originally posted by fatkid
I see you nasties lurking, post some sh*t! What up?


nasties, lol. i used laugh every time my drill intructors called us that. :laughing:

Me too, mine use to us "fillthy McNasties" :D

:laughing: :laughing:

oh yeah and 97" is your magic number. :D

What's the WB on the Mini driveway Digger? :flipoff2:

:flipoff2: 97 :flipoff2:

Originally posted by fatkid
Me too, mine use to us "fillthy McNasties" :D

mine called us "crusty bitches". what service were/are you guys in? i was in the usmc for 8 years but got out last november.

USMC, I got FEB 19 1999. 0351

hmmm.... well there's a story that goes with my discharge heres a quickie. i spent 6 months in usmc boot camp. that didn't suck one bit... i swear. :flipoff2: anywho 3 training and 2 medical platoons later they said why don't you go home and have surgery. and heres the best part, on my way out some asshole gunny seargeant slapped me with fraudulent enlistment. i love the service. :rolleyes: can you believe i'm considering going back :flipoff2:

Originally posted by poppycock
hmmm.... well there's a story that goes with my discharge heres a quickie. i spent 6 months in usmc boot camp. that didn't suck one bit... i swear. :flipoff2: anywho 3 training and 2 medical platoons later they said why don't you go home and have surgery. and heres the best part, on my way out some asshole gunny seargeant slapped me with fraudulent enlistment. i love the service. :rolleyes: can you believe i'm considering going back :flipoff2:

well i got out and was glad but i would do it all the same if i had it to do over. yes there were things that really sucked about it but there were good things that you would never experience any other way. i spent 6 years in beaufort sc and i loved it there. i worked with a bunch of good people (for the most part) and had a blast. even when i went to japan for 6months 3 different times i had fun. when i came to fort worth tx for my last year it sucked!!! i thought reserve bases would be cool but i was wrong. all i found was a bunch of idiots with more stripes on their collar than i had. made for a bad time. it is all what you make of it. if you do go back i sugguest getting a technical mos. you can learn a trade that can make you some $$$ when you get out. i was suprised when i got out. i had bad grades in highschool and this dumb a$$ got out and now i make almost 80K per year. it is all because of what i learned in the usmc. that is it. i recomend it for someone with no real direction in thier life. :D

Originally posted by fatkid
I see you nasties lurking, post some sh*t! What up?


I think my W.B. is about 98".

any one think that there is a huge difference between say 95" and 100"?

Im still at 84 or so....I had to throttle out a little this weekend too....Back tires came about 12" off the ground! But i dont mind the short wheel base, it makes some of the obsticles more fun!

I'm about the same as you, and ya it's fun like that. But Iwas considering using a Toy Ifs power steering box so I was thinking about extending the front a little. I really haven't had the chance to really sit down and look at it yet though. Just some research.:)

Originally posted by fatkid
I'm about the same as you, and ya it's fun like that. But Iwas considering using a Toy Ifs power steering box so I was thinking about extending the front a little. I really haven't had the chance to really sit down and look at it yet though. Just some research.:)

What do people consider to be the best way to stretch out the WB? Front or Back , both, more rear than front? Mine is at 86 now, but I don't want to redo my front. I can go back more but not much before I take out the sawsall again. Can we see some side shots of 100" WB that are Short WB trucks. ( as in are not already LWB Zuks)

Originally posted by fatkid
any one think that there is a huge difference between say 95" and 100"?

Last time I checked, the difference was "5" that's not too huge:D

I wouldn't think there would be a signifigant advantage for either length.


not exactly side view, but this is as close as I could find:
RattleRock (http://www.coalcreekmining.com/Pictures/2001/11-18%20Rattle%20Rock%20-%20Tim%20Justice/Nov18$12.jpg)

Originally posted by fatkid
I'm about the same as you, and ya it's fun like that. But Iwas considering using a Toy Ifs power steering box so I was thinking about extending the front a little. I really haven't had the chance to really sit down and look at it yet though. Just some research.:)

Since i redid my axles, and put the right steering assembly on mine, Locked up in the rocks at 3psi, i can still turn the wheel!!!
That is with the Kick set up, a custon YJ pitman are made to fit it, and then High steer.....I didnt think it was worth all the work to move my axle forward....

Originally posted by 0ILBURNER



I wouldn't think there would be a signifigant advantage for either length.


not exactly side view, but this is as close as I could find:
RattleRock (http://www.coalcreekmining.com/Pictures/2001/11-18%20Rattle%20Rock%20-%20Tim%20Justice/Nov18$12.jpg)

5" makes ALOT more difference than you'd think...
Kinda like a yj-vs-chickoree.... and from what i've seen, a chickoree will out climb a yj all day.....my.02

Fatty you want fun, build it 84x 78!!!!! now that is fun!!

Originally posted by Tin Bender
5" makes ALOT more difference than you'd think...
Kinda like a yj-vs-chickoree.... and from what i've seen, a chickoree will out climb a yj all day.....my.02

There are many more issues in addition to climbing. There is a point when wheelbase becomes a handicap on many obstacles - especially so for getting high-centered, pinched, or maneuvering through tight corners. When you get up around 95" W.B. to about 100, there is Relatively little difference - it's more in the line you choose.

I usually wheel with a group of Jeeps. One CJ5 (~85") and a horde of CJ7s (~93-95"). I have noticed that, while I have to pull 3 point turns around here (lots of TIGHT turns through the woods) I have a much easier time climbing shorter "steps" than they do...

On our informal day BEFORE turkey day run, the CJ5 out with us came pretty stinkin' close to rolling on one, and spun tire all over the place. i walked right up it AFTER 3 CJs had dug it out, and I've made hillclimbs with one locker that they cant make with 2.

Not sure exactly what the wheelbase on a toy is (I think 110-ish) but I really like it. I parked between a Chevy and the CJ5, and we lined our front tires up. My rear tire began at the back edge of th CJ5s rim, and the chebby was about that much longer than me.

That said, I'd rather have a shorter vehilce (like a sammy, or a bobbed yota) with a 100-100" wheelbase with the tires out at the end. Beating the snot out of the back bumper is not my idea of a good time, and it sure makes hopping those hillclimbs looks a lot less elegant when the reciever hitch smacks the ground really hard. :rolleyes:

The chevy seems to take hills even easier than me (except it's so damn tall) - but it's too long and DEFINITELY too wide to play on forested trails with out massive body damage. :(

i stretched mine to 112". if i had it to do again it would be approx. 85-88" and i would do the toy axels for width. i got one i just built with out toy axels (so far) and it f**king wheels. i also used gm box inside frame and got the plate from adv.adapters and the steering is perfect.i lowered the box a little and got the steering geometry right on and it is bad ass. o psi on rudzukes old 33 boggers and a lock rite and it turnes on dry rocks if u fart to hard. gm boxes are a dime a dozen and a borgeson u joint and some fab work. also a droped yj arm (i think)4" and some .250 wall dom 4 steering arms. cheap and bad ass. or u can go with the toy ifs box but it might hit the tire unless u get off set rims. also the modified pitman arm. i say gm. good and plentaful and cheap!

What is stock WB? 80"?

I pushed my front axle out about 1.5", and moved the rear back around 1.25". I'm an ol' motocross and sport bike racer though... so I like it standing on the back wheel(s). ;)

On our last trip out, OILBURNER made it up a ledge that I couldn't make, because of 12" extra wheelbase.... and stronger axles!:p I didn't notice if the extra length hindered his forward progress any.... his spotter got him hung up a few times though. :eek:

Nothing like being fasionably late to party, geeez.

Stock toys are;

Short Wheel Base Truck and 4Runner RN60: 102.95 inches

Long Wheel Base Truck and Xtracab RN65: 112.20 inches

More stock specs are
here. (http://www.sonic.net/jkwaters/STOCK_TOYOTA_SPECS_.htm)

Told ya' he'd know! But decimals??? My God man....

i will jump in real late and throw my 2 cents in. i think the wheel base has more to do with what tire you are running. my thoughts 31s 80 to 85 33s 85 to 90 35s 90 to 95 and 37s right near 100. 38s go 105 +. i run 38s on a 107 wb works great and climbs like a bitch. if i had a set of 35s the brake over would suck on 38s its fine. i have to admit my zook on 33s with a 81 in wb is alot more exciting to wheel. i mean you seeing sky all the time. but this year in moab the wb shined, i had two zuks with me and stuff that was a pain for them was joke for me[in the cruiser]. i climbed double wammy with just a front locker. it all figures into the equation. later mike

Originally posted by suzuki w/the HEAT
i stretched mine to 112". if i had it to do again it would be approx. 85-88" and i would do the toy axels for width. i got one i just built with out toy axels (so far) and it f**king wheels. i also used gm box inside frame and got the plate from adv.adapters and the steering is perfect.i lowered the box a little and got the steering geometry right on and it is bad ass. o psi on rudzukes old 33 boggers and a lock rite and it turnes on dry rocks if u fart to hard. gm boxes are a dime a dozen and a borgeson u joint and some fab work. also a droped yj arm (i think)4" and some .250 wall dom 4 steering arms. cheap and bad ass. or u can go with the toy ifs box but it might hit the tire unless u get off set rims. also the modified pitman arm. i say gm. good and plentaful and cheap!
How is that custom suspension treating you?? Get all the bugs worked out?

Originally posted by gunracer1
i will jump in real late and throw my 2 cents in. i think the wheel base has more to do with what tire you are running. my thoughts 31s 80 to 85 33s 85 to 90 35s 90 to 95 and 37s right near 100. 38s go 105 +. i run 38s on a 107 wb works great and climbs like a bitch. if i had a set of 35s the brake over would suck on 38s its fine. i have to admit my zook on 33s with a 81 in wb is alot more exciting to wheel. i mean you seeing sky all the time. but this year in moab the wb shined, i had two zuks with me and stuff that was a pain for them was joke for me[in the cruiser]. i climbed double wammy with just a front locker. it all figures into the equation. later mike

107"? how do you get 107" WB out of a Zuk?

Originally posted by suzuki w/the HEAT
i stretched mine to 112". if i had it to do again it would be approx. 85-88" and i would do the toy axels for width. i got one i just built with out toy axels (so far) and it f**king wheels. i also used gm box inside frame and got the plate from adv.adapters and the steering is perfect.i lowered the box a little and got the steering geometry right on and it is bad ass. o psi on rudzukes old 33 boggers and a lock rite and it turnes on dry rocks if u fart to hard. gm boxes are a dime a dozen and a borgeson u joint and some fab work. also a droped yj arm (i think)4" and some .250 wall dom 4 steering arms. cheap and bad ass. or u can go with the toy ifs box but it might hit the tire unless u get off set rims. also the modified pitman arm. i say gm. good and plentaful and cheap!

112"? how did you strech yours to this?Have any pics?

that zuk pu we are building is going to have a 118 " wb i am going to strech my zook to a 110"+or- depends how it comes out. i am going to cut the body right below the targa bar and bend up some 30 in. extensions to put in there. i will have three row seating and room for the beer. mike

the 107 is my land cruiser

Originally posted by mudlite
112"? how did you strech yours to this?Have any pics?
What, you don't remember this thing? Allow me to refresh your memory:
<img src="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/dumbass1.jpg">

You can see it's quite a bit longer than stock:
<img src="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/zookrmp.JPG">

I sure hope he took care of that rear steer problem on this contraption. :rasta:

i can't get enough of the first one :D

the rear steer is not the prob. you really can't notice it. just a different way to wheel. the fun is when the fontend breaks and you have no pull in the front. the rear end tends to walk under the truck causing bad tip action on little shit. like the slabs with no p/s and unlocked front end for turning ability.i never unlocked and locked my hubs so many times in a hour. i blew the front locker and trans and the t-case is ????? so i'm going to get my sj410 running for winter runs and then do some swapage on the 112"wb thing. ????? rev. cut44,9" dev.toy t-case and tracker motor,trans,t-case,klune-v.?? not all of the gears but one of them. when i change the axels i'm going to lower the lower links in the front and abend them for a better angle. probably redesign the upper also. but it does wheel. i have a pic somewhere of the passenger door open while it is on the ramp and it is hitting the ground. I'm also going to put more leaves in the back because it is to soft. if i hang a turn to hard the passenger can touch the ground. it is pretty cool and man do i get some wierd looks. i got a 2page fix it ticket by a commercial chp officer. he didn't think it was so funny. i got them all signed off and man did they hate it. 2 cops 1hr just to go over everything on the truck. the only thing they complained about was the gas tank in the back seat, and the limiter straps with vice grips!!!!! fortunatly there is no fix it ticket for that shit.:flipoff2:

It seems that you are spending alot of time trying to get the rear to flex. I think you need to do some work on the front to get this thing more in ballance. Sounds like the rear has too much flex, and you are going for the Awwwwwe factor than the trail runner.

IMHO the front should flex as much as the rear.

Originally posted by CSR
[b]What is stock WB? 80"?

79.8"

Originally posted by mudlite
It seems that you are spending alot of time trying to get the rear to flex. I think you need to do some work on the front to get this thing more in ballance. Sounds like the rear has too much flex, and you are going for the Awwwwwe factor than the trail runner.

I think that front flex is more important than rear (keeps the rig level when you dive into something crazy) - but they should definitely be close to being balanced. That thing looks like it tipped 'cause it had so much rear flex that the body just leaned over the side of the ramp too far. I bet if you could dig up a pic of it on the ramp before it flopped, the front azle would be about parallel to the frame...

It also seems a little redneck-ified to me (just from pic, and things like a .250 wall rollcage, and vice-gripped limiting straps) and I doubt there are too many suspension design books sitting around his place, if you know what I mean. But I've never seen anything other than pics. I'm just a web-critic, what do I know? :rasta:

I'll be running a 'Kick so it isn't really an option for me due to the headlight buckets, but I think the most helpful direction to stretch is forward. The farther ahead you can shove that front axle the more your center of gravity moves back. My Scout had a 100 WB and a Chrysler 440. It was bobbed 25 inches off the backside. It weighed 620 pounds heavier over the front axle than the rear. I moved the front axle ahead 2 inches and it added 130 pounds to the rear axle on the scale.

ouch harsh words yotasan.constructive critisizim i guess. no it is not for the awe man that is cool factor. it is to drive over shit that is usually not driven over. don't bag on the vice grip man they were there just to limit the rear end a little more so the drive shaft doesnt push forward and break the t-case mounts. and as far as a read neck. maybe. but i'll tell you what if your truck can follow mine, or even ramp as far as mine (since you r a street wheeler) then u can talk the smack!!!! let's see some pics of your truck. maybe your store bought suspension. why does everyone talk smack about something that is still in the r&d stages? does toyota just build a truck with no testing? **ck no! build,test modify,return 4 more. ya my truck gets the awe factor but it also gets it awn! so if your calling me out yota then lets do it......

one more thing yota. if you want to see books i would suggest you come down here to cali and visit my shop. i've got books here you couldn't even understand. i bet i got a book on how the samurai drove over the hood of yota's 4 reammer

Originally posted by Yota_San

What, you don't remember this thing? Allow me to refresh your memory:
<img src="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/dumbass1.jpg">

You can see it's quite a bit longer than stock:
<img src="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/zookrmp.JPG">

I sure hope he took care of that rear steer problem on this contraption. :rasta:


Uhh..what is that thing? Looks like it was built while consuming too many :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

:trooper:

Originally posted by suzuki w/the HEAT
ouch harsh words yotasan.constructive critisizim i guess. no it is not for the awe man that is cool factor. it is to drive over shit that is usually not driven over. don't bag on the vice grip man they were there just to limit the rear end a little more so the drive shaft doesnt push forward and break the t-case mounts. and as far as a read neck. maybe. but i'll tell you what if your truck can follow mine, or even ramp as far as mine (since you r a street wheeler) then u can talk the smack!!!! let's see some pics of your truck. maybe your store bought suspension. why does everyone talk smack about something that is still in the r&d stages? does toyota just build a truck with no testing? **ck no! build,test modify,return 4 more. ya my truck gets the awe factor but it also gets it awn! so if your calling me out yota then lets do it......
Dude, look... Like I said, I only went by the pictures, so I could be wrong. I've never seen the thing in person, much less on the trail. The only trail pics I've seen were you <a href="http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=118354">climbing up some huge flat boulder</a> and <a href="http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=118357">flopped on your side on a couple small stairsteps</a>. And what do RTI scores have to do with a good truck? They're common on 'good trucks' but by no means mandatory. I've seen a lot of vehicles that went over some pretty crazy stuff that didn't have a ton of flex. There are quite a few vehicles that run ARCA events with far less flex than you have. Just because a rig has flex, doesn't automatically mean you GET IT. I personally think there is such a thing as too much flex - a VERY FLEXY, soft suspension isn't always the best thing to have - especially on side-hills.

As far as still being in the R&D stages, I thought you told us in the "DOM Tubing Prices" thread that: "The suspension is dialed now." That's what I was basing my statement on. However, if you're running a driveshaft that's too long and using vicegrips to hold on a limiting strap, then that's obviously not the case... and I will avoid saying anything else deragatory until it's done.

As far as calling you out, I'm not. I think your truck will work well in certain terrain where mega-flex is crucial to getting enough traction to continue down the trail. But I bet I could also find some off-camber stuff or some stairsteps that I could make with my 'street wheeler' that would give that thing one hell of a time... but this is all speculation, and I wasn't telling you that I have a better truck, or that Toyota's are better, I was just saying that it wasn't the stablest 1/4 elliptic design I've seen. Post some shots when you're done with it, and I'll gladly retract my statements if nessecary.

Could someone direct me to the part where I said my truck was better than his? Because I missed it. I simply stated that it wasn't the stablest vehicle I'd ever seen (although the flex is impressive), and that the vicegrip thing sounded a little... uh... jury-rigged.

It's all about flex and vice grips.:smokin:

Gawd, who wants to bring up the Tubing prices thread again?:flipoff2:

so what you are saying is if i put vice grips on my jeep it'll flex better? what works better the actual vice grip brand or will any imitaion work? is there a certain size that works better than the others? where should they be mounted to allow for maximum articulation? :flipoff2:

Hmm... Good question, I think in order to get the most out of suspension you have to use the real thing. But the look alikes are hard to beat for there price. We should do test and maybe compare them to see who copied who. What do you think? We need someone to do the testing, anyone famous? I'm not.:(

Well, hell. I have a set of "The real deal" Vive grips holding the ground for my tailights on my lifted Suburban. Does this mean it not only flexes better, but it is now worth more since it is for sale?

Originally posted by suzuki w/the HEAT
but i'll tell you what if your truck can follow mine, or even ramp as far as mine

Hey dude, Ahhhh, your thingy just fell off the ramp?:flipoff2:
How did it score before it fell off? Didn't even look like the front wheels were near the ramp when it went over? Does it fall over much on the trails? I think you need some more flex in the front , and less in the rear.

RTI? what 750?

Does it get high centered much?:D :D :D

Originally posted by mudlite
Hey dude, Ahhhh, your thingy just fell off the ramp?:flipoff2

RTI? what 750?

BWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAHahahahaha!

LMAO!!!

FWIW, I believe it flxes well... he mentioned somewhere that it was 8-something on a 30 degree, which is well over 1,000 on a std. 20* AFAIK.

But here's my real point: Making up a number, I'll say it ramps... 1750. I know a guy who runs D44s, 37" boggers, and a YJ SOA setup on his Sammy. It ramps 13-1400. But the thing is... it's stable. Flex is balanced front and rear, and it has never fallen off of an RTI ramp. I bet he could run pretty much everywhere you could in "that contraption" (ignoring wheelbase - just flex) and be much more stable while doing so, and not worry about busting links or heim joints.

This sounds like the setup Tom Boyd used to have on his early bronco. (it was in 4W&OR several times) leaf-sprung fromnt, and home made 1/4-ellip. in the rear. After rolling it several times and having horrible clearance & reliabilty problems, he finally bit the bullet and took it to (Not certain, but I think it was ORU) Off Road Unlimited - the guys who built that insane Dodge Dakota a couple issues back in 4W&OR. Now the flex is balanced F&R, the 1/4 elliptic is working great, and he hasn't had problems with flopping it places a normal rig wouldn't have trouble (like an RTI ramp).

Originally posted by Yota_San


BWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAHahahahaha!

LMAO!!!

FWIW, I believe it flxes well... he mentioned somewhere that it was 8-something on a 30 degree, which is well over 1,000 on a std. 20* AFAIK.


Thats far from being very flexy. I think mine is ballanced well front to rear. It does well on the trails and to compare apples to apples, it ramps a 1558 on a 20 degree and 1090 on a 30 degree.
If I were out west I would take him up on his offer, but he would have to follow me instead. :beer:

Is that a Chevy gas tank strapped to the right rear wheelwell? Maybe that's why it flopped on its passenger door. Is it gonna stay there?

yall southerners talk a lot of smack. no it is not a chevy gas tank and no it is not going to stay there. as u can see in the photo the rear half of the truck is not there. there is no sheet metal only the back half off the cage that wasn't finished. the frame has since ben narrowed in the rear because the tire was going under the frame and binding the tire and then it would roll. it sounds like u don't like flex? is it true you can have to much flex? hell no. what happens when your truck flexes to much? it leans asshole that is it:flipoff2: :rasta: if your tires never leave the ground you can't roll!!!ya analize that sentence and tell me i'm wrong. what the hell is the differnce between more front flex or more rear flex? the way the truck wheels. you never see a ifs toyota with chevy leaves on the rear. mad rear flex and no front. it works pretty good. if you have more front lex than rear you drive different. not one or the other is any better.if you go on a 5' bolder with the passenger front tire and you got 36" of travel on the front and very little on the rear your truck will lift the rear tire and go beyond the roll center and roll. now if you go over the same rock and have 2" of travel in the front and say 60" of rear travel the truck will lean way over but if the rear tire doesn't lift it won't roll. bottom line is if the tires stay on the ground it doesn't matter where the body is. and ya max travel is not always the way to go but sometimes it is. hince the fact that there is no perfect rig for everything. i thing the only guys on this thread that have any wheeling experience and actually build the rig instead of buying it fatkid and rud zuk:nuke: and for the record I'm not mad, I've just been redirected to the south for my quest to rid the planet of stupid joe wheelers:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Hey Suzuki/feeling the heat. The difference between front and rear flex is weight distribution. If you have no flex in the front and too much in the rear, you have no traction under the tires that are hanging twenty feet below the rear of the truck. You are wrong about not being able to roll a truck if the tires can't leave the ground. It is called a sidehill. Good luck in that thing and buy lots of doors. See ya on the trail. On the SIDE of the trail, that is! My 'Kick will be done by spring. When my daughter is old enough to wheel, I'll be down.

suzuki feeling the heat... STOP trying to defend it. your obviously not going to change anyone's mind without proof so until then just drop it...:flipoff2:

Originally posted by suzuki w/the HEAT
now if you go over the same rock and have 2" of travel in the front and say 60" of rear travel the truck will lean way over but if the rear tire doesn't lift it won't roll. bottom line is if the tires stay on the ground it doesn't matter where the body is.

I guess this is why your truck fell off the ramp......LOL. Your wrong here big time.

A ballanced truck will not lean half as much, and will therfore be more stable. Read some of those books you can't understand.

And by the way my rig is a complete custom rig from tip to toe.
All done by myself. Its not all about building rigs. Its about experience. How long have you been building rigs?

Or may I just call it a " Thingy":flipoff2:

I was just having some of my crew reading your little self defense speech above and I had forgotten all about one of your statements. You said that it flexes soooo much, that the passenger side door touches the ground. Enter a little front axle flex. If you can build a properly dialed in suspension, the truck should be able to manage a near level stance in any situation. And as far as dialed in? You can't "dial it in" with a temporary gas tank strapped to the fenderwell. Everything needs to be where it is going to be. Your Top wishbone is too long ar your bottom links are too short as your pinion angle is way out of shape. And your limiting straps are going to either break under the leverage or bend a link, whichever comes first.
Now we didn't ask you to stand up and scream "I'm the Man!" so don't be so surprised when your chair gets yanked out when you try to sit back down.

Originally posted by twistedscout
I was just having some of my crew reading your little self defense speech above and I had forgotten all about one of your statements. You said that it flexes soooo much, that the passenger side door touches the ground. Enter a little front axle flex. If you can build a properly dialed in suspension, the truck should be able to manage a near level stance in any situation. And as far as dialed in? You can't "dial it in" with a temporary gas tank strapped to the fenderwell. Everything needs to be where it is going to be. Your Top wishbone is too long ar your bottom links are too short as your pinion angle is way out of shape. And your limiting straps are going to either break under the leverage or bend a link, whichever comes first.
Now we didn't ask you to stand up and scream "I'm the Man!" so don't be so surprised when your chair gets yanked out when you try to sit back down.

I don't think he has a chair to sit on.......ROFLMAO

Damn, who let the goats out?:bender:


Baaa, Baaa, Baaa...

OHHHHHHH SHITTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Leme get this straight for the record!!!!!...... And please correct me if I'm wrong..

1. Did you just say that FatKids rig is "store bought"?

2. Did you in anyway shape or form call him out?

Oh please, oh please oh please say YES to both!!!!!

(rub'n my hands together)

IF you called FatKid out, then you'd have a run!!! There would be NO WAY that he could do ANYTHING but say yes, or he'd have HELL to pay from the rest of the TIN:skull:BENDERS....

NOT that that would become an issue, mind you... He'd do it just to kick your ASSSSSSSSSSS.....:skull: :skull: :skull:

The Hammers are really nice this time of year, so I hear.:vader2:

Did I just see a tumbleweed roll by? And where is that Tombstone music coming from?

How did it get to be high noon all of a sudden?
<hr>
And TINBENDER, I believe he said fatkid n' rudezuk's rigs are the only one's that ARENT store bought. So he didn't piss him off... just you, me, and everyone else.

I have to ask, how did I get into this? You could say my Junk is store bought, however Tin Bender and I just happen to own the store. Who knows.:)

Originally posted by suzuki w/the HEAT
i thing the only guys on this thread that have any wheeling experience and actually build the rig instead of buying it fatkid and rud zuk

Pretty sure he is saying the exact opposite. He is saying.................... he thinks the only guys on this thread that have any wheeling experience and actually build their rigs instead of buying them are fatkid and rud zuk.:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Erik D


Pretty sure he is saying the exact opposite. He is saying.................... he thinks the only guys on this thread that have any wheeling experience and actually build their rigs instead of buying them are fatkid and rud zuk.:flipoff2:

Either way he just insulted alot of people:emb4:

One way or another, it doesn't much matter, It's either he called out the KID, or one of you other YOUNG GUNS....

He said BRING IT, now who's gonna go GET IT?:skull:

Originally posted by Tin Bender
One way or another, it doesn't much matter, It's either he called out the KID, or one of you other YOUNG GUNS....

He said BRING IT, now who's gonna go GET IT?:skull:

Damn, wish I lived closer. I always like putting an SX print on hoods.

Wonder how long he would last before his truck gets tired and lies down again?:D :D :D :D

Yea, whats the deal with that heater. I've done every piece of work on my sami from mounting the tires to building the suspension and cage and setting up the gears. I admit, my rig isnt what we would call pretty and it doesn't have a real fancy suspension setup but from what I've seen most of the time you do better without it. Why would you really want a rear tire to drop five feet into a hole? so that you can get the added traction? It seems like those other 3 tires would just have to pull it out. I'm all for flexing but enough is enough. These guys that think RTI scores are the only important thing around need to get a clue. I bent a spring less than a half mile into the con and had to hook my winch to the front axle to keep it from moving but it still cruised along without any problems. I'm not saying that you guys with tons of flex are dumb, I built as much as I could into my leafspring design but its not just about flex. Speaking of that, whoever put a steering box on the inside of the frame how the hell did you accomplish that and where is it. I wanted that camaro box to fit so bad but I just couldnt make it work.

When are we all get together to do some wheeling? I'm open to the thought of heading North, although the weather is so nice down south. Not to mention I think some of you may like the trails around here. Where do you wheel in Nor Cal during the winter?

no i did't call out fatkid. and no your truck can't roll if the tires don't leave the ground. look real deep into this and read more books. and the gm camaro box goes in real easy with just minor mods. if you want more details email me at autotekracing@hotmail.com. minor mods with radiator brk. and steering shaft but well worth the $50 it cost for the box,pump,brkt,bolts. you guys are all right my rig sucks and your guys rigs are all perfect

Originally posted by suzuki w/the HEAT
no i did't call out fatkid. and no your truck can't roll if the tires don't leave the ground. look real deep into this and read more books. and the gm camaro box goes in real easy with just minor mods. if you want more details email me at autotekracing@hotmail.com. minor mods with radiator brk. and steering shaft but well worth the $50 it cost for the box,pump,brkt,bolts. you guys are all right my rig sucks and your guys rigs are all perfect

I really think you should read that chapter again. Unless your tires weigh more than the body, YOU WILL GO OVER. Why did your truck fall off the ramp? Because you have no travel in the front and gobs of wasted travel in the back. Once you roll past the center of gravity your wheels, being on the ground, will have nothing to do with it. Once you cross that line, the tires will follow the body, and over she goes.

Not sure if you are understanding this concept, or just in denial.:flipoff2:

Originally posted by mudlite
Once you roll past the center of gravity your wheels, being on the ground, will have nothing to do with it. Once you cross that line, the tires will follow the body, and over she goes.
Actually, you're wrong. If you had enough flex, the rig could fall onto it's side and the tires would still be on the ground.

But you're right, he'c claiming that if you had enough flex, a vehicle could be un-rollable. In reality, the chassis would flop over onto it's side (rollover) as soon as the CG was passed, and the Super-Idiot-Flex-2000-System would allow the tires to remain on the ground.

A vehicle with THAT much flex would be nearly impossible to actually drive, since it would fall over everytime you attempted to turn it or shift the weight to either side of the CG.

Like this:
<img src="http://www.sierrarockcrawlers.com/images2/0917.jpg">

But you're right Mr. HEAT... at least it has flex. :rolleyes:
<img src="http://www.sierrarockcrawlers.com/images2/0904.jpg">

look! it's a slinky-mobile!:D

At least it is ballanced, unlike the Heat thingy.:D

Nice flex, maybe a bit tooooo much. Too much body roll.

That's funny.

I wheeled with him during the Carnage on the Con, kinda made me laugh.:rolleyes:

I can't rememer who it was but anyway, someone had to be pulled out backwards off the ledge in the beginging of the Box. SRC used that little Flatty to do and it had such "awsome" Flex that it pulled the whole body over damn near until if rolled. The thing is it didn't pull the guy out that was stuck. Look kinda like a slinky.:)

finally u guys understand. i didn't in no way said it was the perfect set up i said it was fun to drive. and if you were to stiffen the springs in that monstrosity it wouldn't have as much lean and it would PROBABLY work better. wich is exactly what i said i was doing to mine. i didn't say my rig was the best i just told you what i could do. and anyone with a little speed and not give a fuc* additude could drive over the same shit with a stock geo tracker. if i wanted a truck that never broke or was fail safe i would have left the stock springs,rear locker,t-case,and 31's a proven combo 4 years. and to answer questions, no my pinion angle is actual great since i have no cv. read your drive shaft book. pinion angle dosn't matter when vehicle is at full flex.and no i have never broke a 3/4 heim joint and the suspension doesn't bind. where do u come up with this shit. next you'll tell me because i have only a drivers side mirror that it will roll on the drivers side first. but i'm glad you see what i was talking about. it can't roll if the tires don't leave the ground. but i also see what you were talking about with to soft. this is what i said in the begining when i said i was adding more rear leaves. it leanes bad on small stuff. the only reason it rolled on the stair step was because the front end slipped off the ledge. but i see your points also but you should also listen to other people and not try so hard to counterdict everyone.:eek: if i say the sky is blue on this board i get "the sky is actually blue with clouds and a hint of white." ya but the fuc***G sky is still blue. i' ve said my opinions now lets here more about the dumafotchie suspension.

I was being sarcastic by agreeing with you. If your cage and doors are laying on their side, you've rolled. I don't give a crap what your wheels are doing...

"Sky is blue" = A truck on its side. A roll.
"but, there are clouds" = Look, the tires are still touching.

But does that really matter? If you had enough flex to keep the tires flat on the ground while the body FELL OVER (ignoring the part where this would make for a useless trail rig) what would you do differently from normal? You'd still have to tip it back upright.. because even if you wanted to keep driving, all of the fluids are kind of busy pouring out of the engine, tranny and transer case.

Besides, there's no way that flex could exist. When the truck was like that, the CG would be something like 3 FEET past the roll center. There is no suspension in the world that can give you anyhting remotely resemling traction in that stiuation. Well... I'm sure you *COULD* design soething that would do it, but I sure as hell would want to try and climb a boulder with it.

You have to realize that while it's true that (in dictionary terms here) a vehicle "hasn't rolled" if it's tire maintain contact with the ground, that's not a feasible thing to do. There is no WAY a vehicle could have enough flex to allow both axles to roll 70-90 degrees to one side and still be stable enough to drive. It's simply a pointless theoretical discussion at this point.

Besides, this isn't what happens to your rig when it flexes anyway - since your tires DO come off the ground when the body falls off of, say, an RTI ramp. So why are we discussing it?

Remember a while back when two super flexy- yet usable rock buggies got stuck in the Golden Crack? These rigs were well engineered, well built rigs. They had simple suspensions with an "as basic as possible" 1/4 eliptic set-up. They just had all four tires on the ground but not enough pressure on any one wheel to pull them out. I guess you could say they were too well balanced. In the meantime, every other rig there with a bolt on 4" lift kit drove in and drove out. Everybody is getting so wrapped up in the building and "designing" of these trucks that they are forgetting to shut up and drive. Think of Granville King. He and his friends would buy old Chevy luvs, leave them stock, and run the Rubicon up and down. They didn't have 1/4 elipticals, coilovers, and rod ends. It isn't necessary. NONE of all the new crap we do is. A few years ago, I remember being in the Black Hills on the Iceman trail. There was a black early Bronco that had gathered up a crowd. He was tweaked out on a granite ledge working the four wheel steering. In the midst of his performace, which had lasted about 30 minutes, he blew a rear axle joint. He had to be pulled off of the ledge and over to the left side of the trail. Everybody had to sit there and watch him fix it because obviously no one could run the ledge if this high dollar, rear steer, mega flex monster couldn't do it. After about 40 minutes of watching him scratch his head, A motor was fired up. A few minutes later a 60 something old man came toodling up the trail in an early cj5 with stock powertrain and a lockrite front and rear. He simply pulled up to the ledge, eased it up, caught some good air, rode it out and idled away. He got it. Old school style, just drive.
We all know that one guy running a spring under rig with average flex and power, and he can get it. The stuff we use to do way back in dad's old truck is the same stuff we do today, only taken to a different level. It's hard to believe it has gotten so complex. You don't need stupid books. How do you think the author learned? Experience.

Well spoken..... NEWBIE:flipoff2: :D:D:D

very well spoken.:smokin:

the student has become the teacher, twisty, you put it to words so elegantly.

BTW, twisty, do you have any pictures to show the boys balanced flex, for instance the night of the poker run??:rolleyes:

No, I think you have those. I haven't even seen them yet. You did get some, didn't you? If not we'll just have to do it again next year! Do you think the Rodders will accept my Sidekick? Maybe if I threaten them with a tire to the hood?

Originally posted by fatkid
When are we all get together to do some wheeling? I'm open to the thought of heading North, although the weather is so nice down south. Not to mention I think some of you may like the trails around here. Where do you wheel in Nor Cal during the winter?

Fatty, come up and play in the snow with us!!!

4' of fresh powder on the trails!!!!!

I'll be lucky to have the Zuk on the road in time for the Hammers, Jan 19th-20th...

Originally posted by fatkid
I'll be lucky to have the Zuk on the road in time for the Hammers, Jan 19th-20th...
What are you doing to it?

Some repairs, power steering, finish my cage, and some front shock hoops. The thing is I have alot of work to do on other people's stuff.

Originally posted by twistedscout
Remember a while back when two super flexy- yet usable rock buggies got stuck in the Golden Crack? These rigs were well engineered, well built rigs. They had simple suspensions with an "as basic as possible" 1/4 eliptic set-up. They just had all four tires on the ground but not enough pressure on any one wheel to pull them out.

Really?:confused: Do you know who's rig? Pics? Were you there? I am not calling you a liar, I would just like to know, its hard to believe for me. The crack is not that big, and I can easily have all 4 on the rock when I cross it, and its a cake walk.

No, I wasn't there. But it was two of the "more famous" rigs. It wasn't a design flaw, really. They just couldn't put any weight down. I suppose they stopped in it to show off a little, and couldn't drive back out. Maybe, the crawlers were so advanced that they just can't handle the basics anymore?

Originally posted by twistedscout
No, I wasn't there. But it was two of the "more famous" rigs.
One question: Sniper or Scorpion?

Sorry, they aren't those kind of buggies. I didn't want to be the one to give names but I believe they were the Cambell, or one off, rigs. I am only going by what I have been told so I could be a big fat liar. But I think there was also a deal in one of the mags about it.

Originally posted by twistedscout
Sorry, they aren't those kind of buggies. I didn't want to be the one to give names but I believe they were the Cambell, or one off, rigs. I am only going by what I have been told so I could be a big fat liar. But I think there was also a deal in one of the mags about it.

I think I remeber the mag and article your talking about. That is only a couple of guys opinions and dont know if I would change the way I think because of a magazine that came out basically when hardcore flex was 1000 on a 20 degree ramp. I do think there are places where articualtion will hurt you but dont think the crack is one of them. The crack is a really easy spot and the only people I have seen have problems with it are long wheelbase and no flex rigs, they still make it and the problems they are having is rolling over not loss of traction. I will take as much well balanced flex anyday over none or less flex. :flipoff2:

ITs a wheelbase thing.........good here......http://a0.cpimg.com/image/00/EF/6959360-6a8e-01800200-.jpg

not so good here....tc skid on the rocks...rockrails on the rocks.....rear qtr on the rocks.....oh yeah did I Mention the front bumper on the rockshttp://a9.cpimg.com/image/59/F2/6959449-e5d4-02000180-.jpg

Oh, I agree. I don't want to fool you. I am just as much a freak about flex as the next guy. In facy my plan for the Sidekick is a set of 17 inch travel Bilstein's. But if it at all affects my confidence in drivability or sidehilling, then they'll come off and back to leafsprings it will go. But I have to admit, that much travel just isn't a NECESSITY. I figure enough flex to stretch out a set of 13" travel shocks on something with around 100 inch wheelbase is about perfect. That's about how it worked out on my Scout and it worked awesome. It's fun watching trucks come through a section you just blindly cruised through, and they are all wheels up and doors down. The 80 inch wheelbase will be a whole new ball game for me. I have a feeling it will be more error than trial. Maybe I won't paint it until I figure out the suspension!