I'm in the process of building up the new Dana60 rear for my rig and was wondering if it is a good or bad idea to weld around the diff housing where the tubes slide in, to keep diff from rotating on the tubes. I know i have heard of this happening, and have seen people do this before and was wondering if its a good idea, or if it is even nessessary.
Thanks.

It shouldn't be necessary, Ive even heard that you shouldn't. I can't remember the exact reason right now though. The D60 should have a tight enough press fit that it shouldn't be a problem with the rosette welds.

steve,
no need.. they won't go anywhere.. if it does somehow happen, repair it then.. but the chances are very slim.. and if u ever want the tubes out to re'tube it for some reason, having a bead all the way around will make it a terrible affair..

welding in the forged(?) housing is never a good idea.

Originally posted by Starslope
welding in the forged(?) housing is never a good idea. Unless you know what you're doing. And it's cast, AFAIK. ;)

But most of us don't know what we're doing. My understanding is that, since there's no way to keep the tube from deflecting slightly under load, you want it to be free to flex. The rosette welds allow it to do this, while also providing enough tackage (new word :)) to hold it in place.

Anyone got direct experience in this?

You guys are right - you do not want to attempt a structural weld (which is what it would be) between cast or nodular iron (depending on what axle it is) of the diff housing and the mild steel of the axle tubes.


I Don't think there's any truth to the "leaving it free to move" story though - it's pretty damned tight inteference fit.

The plug or rosette welds are done to form "nubs" on the mild steel tube that index into the holes in the cast center-section, to prevent tub pulling out or spinning. Again - they are not intended to be a structural weld between cast and mild steel.

And now hundreds will argue and post stories about how successful they have been welding to cast, and speak of high-nickel rod and pre and post heat treat etc. and I shall turn to my buddy woth the PhD in metallurgy and shrug and roll my eyes and say something about - "well, if you absoloutely HAVE to there are technoques to try and maximize your chance of success - but you can never count on it holding, and you shouldn't do it if there's any other possible alternative"

Originally posted by BillaVista

And now hundreds will argue and post stories about how successful they have been welding to cast, and speak of high-nickel rod and pre and post heat treat etc.

so .. I guess the knuckles on your front axle aren't welded on then huh ? and the center section, at least the ones I've welded on is cast steel not iron.

- jack

several buddies of mine have done cut and turns on thier IH 44's and have been very successful. 5+ years now on 1 and still no sign of cracking or anything scary. The knuckles are pressed on anyway. The weld just kinda holds them in place, right?

Originally posted by morpheus


so .. I guess the knuckles on your front axle aren't welded on then huh ? and the center section, at least the ones I've welded on is cast steel not iron.

- jack

Forged steel............ not cast iron

The inner knuckles (end forgings) are not cast iron they are cast or forged steel (depending on axle - most are cast steel).

You guys need to understand the difference.

It prob comes from people using the word "cast" as a contraction for "cast iron" that then leads to it being confused with "cast" as a method of construction - as in molten metal poured into a mold.

I'd love to hear what axle you think has a steel cebter section. Ford 9" in some cases, yes, but every dana axle I know of, and any corporate I've tested, is either cast iron or nodular iron

I posted a couple of days ago where I twisted my 8.8 tube on a TJ with it welded. I didn't think that would happen on a TJ?? A springover is worse, I think.

-Bart

If it's welded at the mouth then all the stress is concentrated there. Spread out the load and use the rosettes.
If it was a good idea don't you think Dana would do it?

At the sled pull last night my buddy who'd been back east getting some upgrades done to his truck told me they're starting to weld the tubes to the pumpkin as some of the high HP diesel pullers are twisting the tubes---chris

My 14 bolt started leaking (seeping) oil where tubes are pressed into center. Took it to my friends shop and he chained down the ends of the tubes (near tires) then put jack on center section got it looking straight and then welded tubes to center section. Its been in there about 10 years with no more problems. It worked for me. IN the last few months I have seen 2 14 bolts that have twisted the tubes. Both had 44 boggers and lockers and low air pressure,what a mess.

Originally posted by BillaVista
you do not want to attempt a structural weld (which is what it would be) between cast or nodular iron (depending on what axle it is) of the diff housing and the mild steel of the axle tubes.


So you're saying you dont believe in shaving diff housings??:rolleyes: Diff housings are nodular iron (cast steel), please show me a common axle with a cast IRON diff housing.
What is the problem with welding CAST STEEL to mild steel? The proper electrode choice for this is a 7018, NOT Nickle rod. Nickle rod is for CAST IRON! Hell you "can" even weld cast steel with MIG if you dont have a stick welder.(with proper preheat of course) But the best way is with 7018 or simular Fluxcore wire.
I think you have your steels confused, or else your metallurgist friend is being way to anal:rolleyes: . Metallurgist are scared of welding:D :flipoff2:

I think you have your steels confused

I think not. I don't have time to answer all right now - but for starters nodular iron IS NOT cast steel. Look it up! :flipoff2:

But why isnt it cool to weld cast steel to mild steel? In regular guy terms please:D

Here's a link to some info on welding cast iron...

Guidelines for Welding Cast Iron (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/castironpreheat.asp)

Originally posted by BillaVista
I'd love to hear what axle you think has a steel cebter section. Ford 9" in some cases, yes, but every dana axle I know of, and any corporate I've tested, is either cast iron or nodular iron

And to add more confusion... nodular iron is a cast product.

Here's the common stuff I've seen a lot of in the 4x4 world:

Diffs--nodular cast iron (commonly called "cast")
Note: diffs are sometimes cast gray iron (much weaker, much dirtier to weld)
Inner knuckles--steel--either forged or cast.
Outher knuckles--nodular or gray cast iron.
Ford 9" diffs--nodular (good) or gray (common) cast iron.

But the main point I'm trying to make is, nodular *is* cast iron, just a better grade of material. Steel is an iron alloy, that can be forged, cast, rolled, etc....

But why isnt it cool to weld cast steel to mild steel?

It is, as long as the cast steel is also a mild steel. That's pretty much what's going on with your regular inner knuckles (end forgings or Cs)

Yea - what Scott said too. I have only worked on various Dana diffs and GM corporates, and I can guarantee some are nodular iron and some are cast iron.

Nodular iron, is actually so named because the carbon is present in small almost-spheroidal "nodules" as opposed to flakes.

BillaVista, Whatever.... So you are still saying that you shouldnt shave your diff housings??:rolleyes: ...What about linked suspensions? where do you plan on putting your upper links mounts??
Anyway, What im getting at is that you're looking way to deep into this (like a Metallurgerist would). I am still right on the cast steel vs. cast iron:flipoff2: . Cast (whatever you want to call it) is welded every day, i personally weld all types of cast steel, cast iron, and mild steel every day, any they all can be welded just fine, and are plenty strong if done right. I have yet to have any of my welds fail welding mild steel to cast steel on 4-link setups, shaved diffs, traction bar setups, spring pads, ect. :flipoff2:
They can be welded no prob, maybe not to a Metallurgerist standards:rolleyes::rolleyes:, but they are more than strong enough for many structural situations. ;):flipoff2:

camo 60 axles tubes are welded to the pigs..why?...............cause sandy cone builds them that way. i asked him why and he said "cause thats how i do it "hard to argue with the guy whos rear ends have won more off road race than all the others combined.


my guess is that dana doesn't do it because it takes a skilled welder and more time then pressing them in. i have seen plenty of factory rosette welds in axles fail out on the trail

Abba spun the pumpkin on his D60 at TTC last year and BnT Mike blew the rosettes on his sami at the Cal Rocs comp in Victorville.

like i said....seen plenty of factory rossette welds fail. saw a 14 bolt blow them out last trip to the hammers. very cool carnage.

my front axle is seeping (sp?) at the tube goes into the pig should I get it welded before it starts driping??? what is the proper way tig ??? and stick choice ?? * oh dana 30 .................ltr

Originally posted by misfitcj
my front axle is seeping (sp?) at the tube goes into the pig should I get it welded before it starts driping??? what is the proper way tig ??? and stick choice ?? * oh dana 30 .................ltr

how to properly weld a d30........ unbold it from your rig, cut the axle tubes off , toss the old axle tubes, axles , hubs. knuckles and other stuff in the dumbster. then take the pig and toss it in the dumbster as well. then using a d60 pig weld in new axle tubes, empy your bank account until all the other assorted 60 parts are in your possesion then weld them onto the axle tubes.
presto.....easy fix for seeping dana 30 axle tubes :flipoff2:


seriously. welding an already assembled housing will probally warp it into junk. it needs to welded then straightened in a jig.

just wheel it until it fails and upgrade

Originally posted by camo


how to properly weld a d30........ unbold it from your rig, cut the axle tubes off , toss the old axle tubes, axles , hubs. knuckles and other stuff in the dumbster. then take the pig and toss it in the dumbster as well. then using a d60 pig weld in new axle tubes, empy your bank account until all the other assorted 60 parts are in your possesion then weld them onto the axle tubes.
presto.....easy fix for seeping dana 30 axle tubes :flipoff2:


seriously. welding an already assembled housing will probally warp it into junk. it needs to welded then straightened in a jig.

just wheel it until it fails and upgrade

HAHA! I like that....Wheel it till it blows up, then upgrade...lol. Good shit. :D

I think the main reason Dana doesn't weld the axle tubes to the center section is the fatigue life of the weld in bending at the centersection is MUCH (100's of times) lower than the pressed tube method.

Techincal data read at your own risk:
On a semi-log scale the slope of a weld is around -3 on the SN curve. A typical mild steel is around -7. Depending on the stress range, you could have 100's of times better fatigue life or just 2 or 3 times better fatigue life with Dana's method.

The center section is the highest bending stress. A little tidbit of welded structure fatigue analysis is that welds have the same fatigue life in compression as in tension. A parent material typically has a higher compressive fatigue life.

Good engineering practice is to avoid placing a weld in an area of high section change if at all possible. Even better practice is to avoid putting a weld in an area of high section change AND at the highest bending stress.

One other aspect to think about, and Camo may want to consider this for his Camo60 1/4" wall tube failure. A small fatigue crack (or sharp flaw) in an area of high section change or high stress can go through full section failure with a single impact load. Most standard materials available have a very low fracture toughness. That means if a flaw exists there is little material resistance to stop the crack from growing. Normal loading will cause the crack to grow a little but high shock or impact loads can cause rapid crack growth. Sometimes you get lucky and the crack grows into a low stress area but not usually.

So, now you have:

1. Weld in a high stress region
2. Weld in an area of high section change
3. Weld is WAY more likely to have a fatigue crack than "parent" material.
4. Impact can cause full section failure due to low material toughness.

Here's the other side of the picture:

From an offroad perspective you need to take into account the fact that most of us have much lighter rigs than the intended application. We also don't see enough cycles. Face it, either it's broken in the shop, we're rebuilding it, house repairs, school etc. How many times do we really get to take our rigs out every year? Dana has to design for the guy that would overload it and run it 365 days a year for 10 years. I'm ashamed to say, that it would take me the rest of my life to wheel that many days. :(

My recommendation for most wheelers is to rely on the press fit and rosette welds. If the tubes rotate in the housing weld it, but understand the potential consequences and inspect them periodically.

Originally posted by TANKOMA


So you're saying you dont believe in shaving diff housings??:rolleyes: Diff housings are nodular iron (cast steel), please show me a common axle with a cast IRON diff housing.
What is the problem with welding CAST STEEL to mild steel? The proper electrode choice for this is a 7018, NOT Nickle rod. Nickle rod is for CAST IRON! Hell you "can" even weld cast steel with MIG if you dont have a stick welder.(with proper preheat of course) But the best way is with 7018 or simular Fluxcore wire.
I think you have your steels confused, or else your metallurgist friend is being way to anal:rolleyes: . Metallurgist are scared of welding:D :flipoff2:

Nodular Iron is iron not steel, they are two totally different things, All diff housings are iron, nodular, grey, white whatever it doesnt really matter, fortunately most are nodular iron which is one of the better grades of cast iron. Now cast steel is a totally different material, it is basically the same steel used is tubing, plate, bar whatever, it is just cast into a final shape instead of forming like you typically do, cast steel parts are not that common, you typically only use it when you want to cast a part (to make it cheaper) and then weld it to something else like a inner C on a front end, it is very appropriate to weld cast steel to steel. Cast Iron is somewhat weldable, but no matter how you weld it, it is not a very sound weld, you very rarely see a manufactured cast iron part that is welded other than a repair or modification someone did later down the road. Most of us get by welding on cast iron like suspension mounts or shaving diff housings but those are not very structural welds.

Originally posted by GOAT1
Nodular Iron is iron not steel, they are two totally different things, All diff housings are iron, nodular, grey, white whatever it doesnt really matter, fortunately most are nodular iron which is one of the better grades of cast iron.

Strange:confused: I was always have been told that diffs are made from cast steel, not iron. And I've always just assumed that Nodular Iron was cast steel. I've never had any problem welding to diffs with 7018, or Mig.
So, what would you say is the best welding process (and type of rod/wire) for welding the mild steel plate to the bottom of my shaved 60 rear?? I had just planned on welding it with 7018 like ive done before but if there is a better rod or wire or process that i should be using for this, id like to use it. What would you recommend :question:
Thanks,

Originally posted by TANKOMA


Strange:confused: I was always have been told that diffs are made from cast steel, not iron. And I've always just assumed that Nodular Iron was cast steel. I've never had any problem welding to diffs with 7018, or Mig.
So, what would you say is the best welding process (and type of rod/wire) for welding the mild steel plate to the bottom of my shaved 60 rear?? I had just planned on welding it with 7018 like ive done before but if there is a better rod or wire or process that i should be using for this, id like to use it. What would you recommend :question:
Thanks,

If mig or 7018 works for you, use it, everyone has their own techique. I usually tig it with stainless 312 or missle rod.

I'm going to ignore that you're rolling your eyes at me

So you are still saying that you shouldnt shave your diff housings

Shouldn't?? No.....there really is no shouldn't - certainly I'm not one to tell you what to do - but I will offer my opinion, and the facts i know to back it up, freely. You can do with it what you want, be it ignore me, yell at me, roll your eyes, or just listen to someone else who has said almost exactly what i said :flipoff2:

Now that I have that off my chest.....

Shaving the diff is hugely popular, and for good reason...only you can decide if it;s worth it. And it depends on who does it and exactly how as to how successful it will be and how happy you will be with the results. No, in my opinion, the housing WILL NOT be as rigid or maintain it;s structural integrity as well as before it was shaved and welded. It simply won't. However - will this loss be enough to cause you a problem.....that depends on a great many things.....including tire size, throttle, usage etc. For most of us , the gain in clearance is worth the loss of strength. For a "puller"....almost certainly not. FWIW, my 14b is shaved and plated, by an experienced pro - and it leaks, but hasn't broken.

What about linked suspensions? where do you plan on putting your upper links mounts?

Mounted to a steel truss formed over the nodular iron diff, and welded to the mild steel tubes :flipoff2: Or you can weld to the nodular iron and hope it holds. I've seen some work and many not - be it link mounts, traction bars, whatever.

Anyway, What im getting at is that you're looking way to deep into this

Nope - just stating the facts as i see them....what you decide to do with them is your business. I'm niether engineer, metalurgist nor welder, i have no loyalty to any particular point of view. I just like to discuss what works and what doesn't, and why. "
Because" or "I've done it like that for years" are never adequate explanations for me - that;s just the way i am.


I am still right on the cast steel vs. cast iron

No you;re not :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Cast (whatever you want to call it)

Quite honestly, we're unlikely to get anywhere without agreeing on a common set of definitions - otherwise we may as well be speaking different languages - it isn;r productive. I'll submit one last time "cast" is a process, not a material.


lt1yj - your analysis and advice is excellent, thanks

Originally posted by TANKOMA
So you are still saying that you shouldnt shave your diff housings??:rolleyes: ...What about linked suspensions? where do you plan on putting your upper links mounts??
I am still right on the cast steel vs. cast iron:flipoff2: . Cast (whatever you want to call it) is welded every day, i personally weld all types of cast steel, cast iron, and mild steel

Now I'm really confused.

First you asked if the Collective Wisdom thought it was a good idea to weld the tubes to the diff.

Then you told the CW that you already know the answer, and that the CW is wrong, when the CW came back with an answer you apparently didn't like.

And you also know what you're welding on, whether it's steel, iron, or whatever (I think, for giggles, I'll call it magnesium... since we can't agree on what it is anyway) and know how to weld it.

Wouldn't it have been easier to just tell the rest of us monkeys (who obviously don't know what we're building) how to do it upfront?

And I would hope, as the resident tech curmudgeon, that BillaVista is looking way deep into these things... that's what he does, by nature of who he is.

Incidentally, I have, in various places around the shop:
Cast gray iron
Cast nodular iron
Cast steel (of various alloys)
Cast aluminum
Cast lead
Cast concrete
..and I'm just not talented enough to weld most of them, despite that I've welded cast before.

Fun argument, but AAM/Dana/GM Corporate/Sterling all bypass seam-welds and opt instead for rosette welds when connecting rolled steel to a cast center chunk. Whether it is driven by engineering, consistency of production process, or simple cost constraints, the major manufacturers are pretty much all agreed when it comes time to assemble a Salisbury-type axle.

To upgrade axle attachment, then (assuming a tight press-fit for the tubes), how 'bout drilling some additional holes in the casting for additional rosette welds? The press-fit joint will still fight most of the flex, but additional rosette welds might help fight torque rotation....

Randii

just have to a my bit of info here.

There is almost no cast steel used in vehicle contruction. Forgings are much more common. Tube forks on a front axle for example, all forged. The easy way to tell is to look at the parting lines, forgings have a very wide indistinct line, castings have a thin sharp line.

The reason that people get away with welding to nodular iron, is that it is very similar to steel (but it's not steel!!). The possible problems come from the fact that it is so high in carbon content versus steel, that it air hardens. Meaning that the weld cooling in air (no quench) is enough to make the weld and surrounding material hard and brittle. This is easy enough to overcome with post-heat and slow cooling, not perfect but good enough for our purposes.

Scott, if you find a way to weld that cast concrete let me know:flipoff2:

I weld all my tubes. Not all the way around though. About 1/4 in front and 1/4 in the rear. Never a problem. Always pre heat. Always weld to the center sections. For shaving and traction bar mounts ect.... Never a problem....yet

Fawk the naysayers!. Do what you need to. Learn as much as you can before you try it. Do the best job you can. And learn from what you did, so you can do it better next time.

I say they can be welded without issues. I saw H8Monday with his welded 8.8" (in his weiner days!:flipoff2: ), bust everything he had in the rear except the housing.
My D60 spun the tube. I knocked out the rosettes with a punch and cleaned up the holes with a rotary file. Then I took the housing to Welderboy and he dropped in some new welds. I did not weld the tubes, instead, I had him throw in a nice bead around the inside of the case spreader holes. No problems yet, but I dont think I will have any either.:D

Got a question about preheating before welding. I will probably bend a tube over the diff for my 4 link rear, but I may want to add some bracing by welding to the diff. Do you just use a torch on the housing to heat it up, weld, and then use less heat as it cools down? Do you use a thermometor to heat it to a certain temp?

weld um up... I have seen multiple housings spin...On a rear end only if we build it we weld it... I was tought this by a man with 25 years of building custom axles.... never had one cause a problem or break........ My dana rear axles in my own rigs have all had welded tubes. You have to prep very well, pre heat and know how to weld obviously.....

Just cause Dana didnt do it doesnt make it wrong to do....
I mean think about all the stuff the factory doesnt do to begin with that they could have done to make it better... IE stock chevy frames ...they could have been boxed but nooooo they built a POS that cracks and falls apart....



So weld um up

Mike

OK I just have to say this, just cause Dana didnt do something doesnt make it right. I make a living fixing shit that Dana didnt do right every day. I wouldnt be able to build my Jeep if it wasnt for the guy that designed those awesome aluminum Dana 44 rear ends in the WJ Grand Cherokees! Hey Dana guy, here's to you:beer: :flipoff2: :beer: .

Ryan

In all fairness to Dana, you can;t say Dana did or didnt do anything. Dana builds axles to a manufacturers specs. If Ford decides to use DAna 60's with crappy unit-bearing hubs is that Dana's doing, or Ford's? Dana gives 'em what they want.
To the guy that knocked out the rosettes with a punch, what kind of axle was that on?.....I removed the tubes from a SuperDuty D60 this past weekend and I know they did not just "knock" out. I had the thing up on a milling machine and it was all I could do to cut the rosette weld with a carbide endmill. It was harder than a wedding.....well......it was hard. The tubes themselves are made from a different material than the older D60's I've worked on too....it was all the tubing cutter wanted and that was with a new blade in it. You can hold a piece of the tube and tap it with another piece of steel and it rings like it has been heat treated. Thinking about it I'll have to test a piece of it on the Rockwell tester at work.

[QUOTE=BillaVista]




The plug or rosette welds are done to form "nubs" on the mild steel tube that index into the holes in the cast center-section, to prevent tub pulling out or spinning. Again - they are not intended to be a structural weld between cast and mild steel.

hQUOTE]

OLD POST, i know bill but a NEW prob fer me:)

my front HP44 out of 78 3/4 ford is leaking out the two rear rosettes. just a tiny seap but enough to gather on the floor like a couple drops in a few days. no big deal there............just want to fix it. these two plugs are deep........like not much weld in them. the only option i see is to just fill them up with weld. i have another thread started on this but wanted to catch your attention :flipoff2:

thanks