what are the benefits of both?

I've got a line on a FJ40 B, but don't have any idea how it compares to a 2F

Diesel - no ignition problems and serious torque low down in the rev range


one thing - DIESEL ROCKS

I would put my vote in for the diesel. Rugged, better on fuel, they will idle all day without bustin a sweat!!:skull:

I've always heard people rave over the benefits of diesels off-road because of the low end torque, but in looking over the stats, I just don't see it.

F 209@2000 125@3600(hp)
2F 210@1800 135@3600(hp)
B 141@2200 80@3600(hp)
3B 159@2200 90@3500(hp)

Clear this up for me guys. What am I missing?

Originally posted by raider89
I've always heard people rave over the benefits of diesels off-road because of the low end torque, but in looking over the stats, I just don't see it.

F 209@2000 125@3600(hp)
2F 210@1800 135@3600(hp)
B 141@2200 80@3600(hp)
3B 159@2200 90@3500(hp)

Clear this up for me guys. What am I missing?

Check out this site ..... It may change your mind 34-37 mpg
:eek: :eek: :eek: ......
there is a guy on this bb doing this very swap in a cruiser. Charles Aarons.

http://www.x-pointcgi.com/~dieselrepower/

The Scout with the 6AT setup is cool! Where do you get a 6AT Cummins and can they be mated to an NV4500??? Looks like a perfect match for my soon to be diesel FJ55. Now I just need to decide on what diesel...

Originally posted by raider89
I've always heard people rave over the benefits of diesels off-road because of the low end torque, but in looking over the stats, I just don't see it.

F 209@2000 125@3600(hp)
2F 210@1800 135@3600(hp)
B 141@2200 80@3600(hp)
3B 159@2200 90@3500(hp)

Clear this up for me guys. What am I missing?

Ok for starters - the F and 2F engines are 6cyl - the B and 3B engines are 4 cyl


trust me if you have driven a cruiser with a 2H or even a H engine, you will never look back at petrol again

FWIW, I would pass on a B motor...not enough "oomph" for me. If you thought your 2F was slow going up to the Eisenhower Tunnel, wait till you experience it with a B engine.

Now a 3B or 2H (especially with an aftermarket turbo), one of the LASER range of Toyota diesels, now we're talking.

Yeah, compare that 4cyl diesel with a 22r and see what the comparison looks like. 2200rpm is a pretty low place for a 4cyl to find torque. I would probably take a 2F over a B or even a 3B, but I would take all of the 2Hs I could get. Diesels usually last longer as well.

Originally posted by bubs


Ok for starters - the F and 2F engines are 6cyl - the B and 3B engines are 4 cyl


trust me if you have driven a cruiser with a 2H or even a H engine, you will never look back at petrol again As soon as he tries to get a part for his diesel motor, he will start looking back :). Diesel Cruisers were never exported to the USA by Toyota.

I sold my last FJ40 24 years ago. And, I never owned one with a stock engine (2 - 327). So, even though I've had a few 40's, I am as bad off as a newbie when it comes to knowing what a stock diesel or gas engine is like.

I want a 40 series body style again. I don't believe the 2H was ever in the 40 series. As I recall, the best diesel engine in a 40 series was the 3B (BJ42 in early 80's).

As far as parts availabilty, I understand that the parts are not difficult to get because of their use in some Hino forklifts and they are available through Canadian sources at the worst.

Diesel all the way!!! Let off the clutch and watch it "chug" its way up obstacles without having to keep the foot on the throttle to keep it from stalling... No goofy electricals, no carburators, 1/10th. the amount of fuel consumed... I know this one from wheeling my FJ45p/u. Mud bogs are a different story, just get a turbo! Finding parts will be a little difficult (if at all needed-keep the oil fresh and you're set), where you are, but fellow cruiserheads are always willing to help--even if it means sending parts across the border to help you out. Besides, the 3B will outlast about a dozen "gasser" motors you'd get from an FJ.

My .02$, get a gasser FJ and leave the diesels up here with us...

:p
Good luck with it!!
Cheers! :beer: :smokin: :beer:
Dan
'84 BJ42 Turboed
'81 BJ42
'77 FJ45 p/u
'84 X-cab mini-truck

Is it worth turbocharging a 3B that has 360,000 miles on it?
Has anyone experienced the AXT turbo kit?

I heard my name mentioned. I'm putting a Cummins 6AT3.4 into a '67 FJ45LV wagon. With NV4500, AA Rock Box, MAF cast iron case with 2.31 gears, 5.29s, rear FF/Soflocker, front ARB, 4" lift, 9.00R16 Michelin XZLs.
I'm very objective. I have a '79 BJ40 and '84 BJ60 (both with AXT turbos), also a '52 M37 with a Hercules 3.7L diesel (turbo, intercooler, propane; estimate 180 hp/360 ft-lb), Clark 5spd, 11.00R16s; and I'm working on a '42 Dodge WC53 Carryall with Perkins 4.236T and NP540 5spd. And my F350 crewcab expedition truck with turbo 7.3 and 325/85R16 Michelin XMLs (38.7"). I love diesels.
Anyone who can get their hands on a diesel LC should get one. Gearing is very important. A 5spd like the H55F is a huge asset with a diesel. You can't take a BJ60 wagon with 3.70s and run 33s without changing to 4.11s or even 4.56s. But the H55F allows that and still allows good quiet economical (big time economical with a diesel!) cruising. Expect up to 25 or even 27 mpg with a BJ40 and up to 24 mpg with a HJ60. On the highway. Diesels really do well in mpg offroad. Where gas LCs drop 50-60% to 6 mpg, diesel LCs will drop 30% to 15 mpg or so.
Charlie

I am new to diesels, and the BB, but where can you source the 6AT cummins. everything I have seen is a 4bt or 6bt. Marine applications are th only 6at's I heard of... Also how hard is it to mate to a NV4500. I would LOVE to put a diesel in a cruiser, but need a bit of guidance. How is the fit in the engine compartment? Would a FJ55 be a reasonable swap?

Thanks!!!!!!!

Sources for a 6AT:
1) RIGHT NOW there's an auction for a seemingly good one on Ebay. It's at $510 - very cheap.
2) Peak Sales. He has everything in terms of A and B series Cummins parts. I bought a very rare 6AT Bosch VE injection pump for the prototype , never sold intercooled version of the 6AT, set up at 125 hp and 235 ft-lb.
If you want raw unmitigated power, get a 4BT. You can buy them stock up to 130 hp/333 ft-lb, and the factory ISB 16 valve 4BTi is up to 170/420. You can make them put out even more. But the 4BT is a heavy motor with a lot of vibration. The 6BT or an H series Toyota six or even a B series 4 cyl will vibrate less.
The 6AT can be purchased with various automotive block to bellhousing adapters. Mine is GM. I am going to run a NV4500. The one on Ebay has a Ford bell. You can an adapter plate from AA to adapt a Dodge NV4500 to it.
Obviously the best transmission to use with a B or H is the H55F 5spd. With careful choice of axle gearing (not too tall! figure equivalent of 3.70 with 28" tires for 2H, 4.11 with 3B; I have 4.56 with 34s on my BJ60 but it has a turbo). but it is POSSIBLE to stick a 4500 behind a 2H but not a 3B.
Also pretty obviously the best trans to use behind a 4BT is a NV4500 or even a 5600, though adapters are available for ZF 5 and 6 spds.
Forget about 4 spds behind diesels. You either end up with insufficient road speed and waste a lot of fuel or elso too tall in 2nd and 3rd and have sluggish accleration and waste a lot of fuel. With a 5spd and a smallish diesel you tend to use 4th a lot in town. A 4spd with a Ranger OD is OK, that makes a 6spd with the split on 3rd. The very tall 0.73 of the Ranger and the NV4500/5600 and the ZF S6-650 allow choice of very low axle ratios, which gives great getupandgo. My BJ40 has mere 32" 265/80R16 Swampers. It has a H41, a cute little planetary OD Specter sold me that's a copy of a Warn OD with ratio 0.718:1; and 4.88s. It goes in 2,3, and 4, quick, even with 3.0L (and an AXT turbo).
Remember the Scouts with the SD33/SD33T, and the 78/79 Dodge D/W200s with the Mitsubishi 6DR5? Everybody bitched about lack of power. If these rigs had used 5 spds and 4.10s or 4.56s instead of 4 spds and 3.55s or 3.42s or 3.07s or 3.31s, they would have gone great. There were overdrive 5 spds in the late 70s. International had their own T34 and I bought my NP540 (6.06, 3.31, 1.81, 1.00, 0.82) in '76. It is only 1" longer than a SM465 and still lives behind my Perkins 4.236T in my '42 Dodge Carryall.
Charlie

Anyone who choses gas over diesel or thinks it is not worth it or they don't save anything is a complete idiot.

www.geocities.com/mrdieselpa/toyota-diesel.html

The 4cyl toy diesels put out tons of torque for their size and over 35mpg to boot. Every serious 4x4 that has has any professional success are almost all diesel - land rover, land cruiser, No matter where you go all over the world from safari trucks in africa to mine trucks in brazil nothing outlasts and runs cheaper than a toy diesel.

470,800kms and flogged daily at 110kmh and wheeled all the time. Nothing done excepts timing belts and injestors once at 435,000kms

First of all, "Mr. Diesel", I don't appreciate being called an idiot...what, I can't have a different opinion without being insulted? Gimme a break...

Second, anyone claiming 35 MPG out of a 3B engine under normal (street/highway mix and *decent speeds*) conditions is stretching the truth, I have several close friends who daily drive Canada-spec BJ70's and NONE of them get that kind of mileage. Maybe when they were new, and on the highway, going 55 MPH, but not anymore. 35+ MPG at 110 KPH, on a 3B with 470K on the clock? *Bullshit*.

As for your somewhat random examples of diesels in competition and in regular use, YES, a diesel engine is much more durable and economical *in the long run* than a petrol engine, but your argument has one fatal flaw. You're referring to Land Cruisers that BEGAN as diesel models, I was referring to a conversion. To take a US-spec Land Cruiser, convert it to diesel and obtain good results, you're going to have to spend GOOD money on the conversion. I wouldn't even consider a 3B for the over-7,000 lb heavily-modified FJ62 that I drive, I don't think the results would be worth it.

I think he was referring to a 2L or 3L in a HiLux, and since he lives in Canada that was miles/Imperial gallon. 35 miles/Igal = 29 miles/US gallon. Since my BJ40 gets 25 miles/US gallon at steady 60-65 mph, out of a 2.4L that's plausible.
I love diesels. So much that I bought a DTA466 on Ebay today. A '93 motor with only 50 hrs, really brand new (spent 50 hrs on a dyno). No electronics, the last of the mechanical engines.
$1550 for 250 hp, 680 ft-lb. I may try to put it in my '88 F350 crewcab with a Fuller FSO-6109A 9 spd (335 lb), together with its' NP203/205 doubler TC and 4.10s and 325/85R16 XMLs.
Charlie

Originally posted by Mrdiesel
Anyone who choses gas over diesel or thinks it is not worth it or they don't save anything is a complete idiot.

[

Nice post, Newbie. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by 60seriesguy

....

Second, anyone claiming 35 MPG out of a 3B engine under normal (street/highway mix and *decent speeds*) conditions is stretching the truth, I have several close friends who daily drive Canada-spec BJ70's and NONE of them get that kind of mileage. Maybe when they were new, and on the highway, going 55 MPH, but not anymore. 35+ MPG at 110 KPH, on a 3B with 470K on the clock? *Bullshit*.

As for your somewhat random examples of diesels in competition and in regular use, YES, a diesel engine is much more durable and economical *in the long run* than a petrol engine, but your argument has one fatal flaw. You're referring to Land Cruisers that BEGAN as diesel models, I was referring to a conversion. To take a US-spec Land Cruiser, convert it to diesel and obtain good results, you're going to have to spend GOOD money on the conversion. I wouldn't even consider a 3B for the over-7,000 lb heavily-modified FJ62 that I drive, I don't think the results would be worth it.

I agree with 60Seriesguy's assessment.

I've found the 20mpg range (still very good for a cruiser, especially when compared to a gas engine) to be more realistic (unless as Henry pointed out you are talking a brand new vehicle driving at highway speeds only--even then 35 mpg sounds pretty optomistic).

For 3B's, fuel economy (which is somewhat offset in my area because diesel is more expensive than even premium grade gasoline) and longevity are the key benefits in my opinion. I haven't been real impressed with the 3B's pulling power (although it may be good for an engine of its size) in Cruisers. I definitely wouldn't want a 3B in a wagon.

I would think a 3B would rock in a Zuki...




:)

speeking of sami and this being a diesel thred maybe i could get some input. i frequent both areas as i have both an 86 sami and a 66 fj40.

that said what would be the best way to go for a sami application weight and power? 1 would like to be around 120 hp. more than the stock 55 torq you get with the sami engine. any help would be greatly appretiated.

thanks

jeff

:usa:

My BJ75 with 360k on it gets 25 (US)mpg unloaded.

JBT-

Not to harass, but serious questions.

Are there 75 mph+ interstates in Sweden?

Are these highways 1,000 miles long?

Are there conjested areas of traffic similar to Boston/495 in Wash D.C. (the worst you can imagine)?

To All.
Gas Mileage challenge:
Start on east side of St Louis (in rush hour), to Salt Lake (850 miles of rolling hills, windblown prairie, to two passes above 10,500 feet) 1,300 miles at 45-75+ mph hitting all major centers at rush hour, then add a/c load for hot July days.

tell us then what your highway mileage average is.

Well obviously the gas mileage effects are going to be different with rig setups, tire sizes, geographic locations, and the amount of havoc the stupidity of your fellow drivers can create. I think the reason for a diesel over a petrol is torque. Four Wheeler magazine did a comarison a couple of months back and their end result was that if you were buying a new truck and went with the diesel to save money on fuel, you would have to tow somewhere around 326,000 miles to recoup the extra cost of purchasing the diesel over a gasoline engine. If you want to tow the mountains at 70mph then diesel is the way to go. Don't get me wrong I'd love to slap the FJ60 with a new Cummins diesel but a 350 is more economical and easier to source parts for.:D

With all due respect, the person who wrote that sidebar in 4Wheeler must have failed 8th grade arithmetic. They made their calculation on the basis of the FUEL PRICE DIFFERENCE (1.78 - 1.60 = 0.18) but DID NOT take into account mileage differnce. If you use the figures quoted in the sidebar, 8 mpg for big block gas and 14 mpg for diesel (towing), and do the arithmetic, you come out with 40,000 miles, not 311,000 miles.
It never ceases to amaze me why automotive journalists get off on lying about diesels. This must be one true example of a payoff, or else the guy is a complete idiot to not even check his arithmetic, and then publish it.
Charlie

Arthmetic: 1.78/8mpg = 22c/mile
1.60/14mpg = 11.5c/mile. Difference = 10.5c/mile = $1050/10,000 miles. 40,000 miles = $4200 = diesel upgrade cost

That's funny, I never even thought to check the arithmetic. the main areason I haven't bought a diesel is that I know at some point I'll fawk up and top that sucker off with gasoline.:D

Whatever. One time I got some summer fuel in November and put 20% gasoline in my M37 to thaw it out. It idled slow but otherwise ran OK. Up to 25-30% gasoline in a diesel isn't that big of a deal.
It really pisses me off that someone would publish bad calculations. I did write the guy (their editorial address).
Charlie

To diesels defense:

1)Mileage IS better than gas.
1a) diesel is often cheaper than gas (+/- 10 cents difference-California, Arizona, New Mexico for sure, not true here in Northern Wy or Southern, MT).

2)Torque curve is better (not max, but the range at which 75% of max comes into play is lower rpm than gas).

3)few electrics needed after startup.

4)slower rpm pattern which equates to longer life (relative to non 2F engines which rev higher, wear faster). Redlines typically sub 4,000 (3B is very close to 3,000-1HD-T is an odd 4,500+)

5) diesel somewhat safer than gas in handling, less vapor pressure.

6) emissions on a converted vehicle. "D" vs a gas designation can mean a much more free use of an old truck.

rick d
The speed limit on highways in Sweden is 68mph or 110 km/h but most people drive faster :D and the higheays are not 1000 miles long.
In Germany they have a recomended speed of 80mph on some parts of the Autobahn (their highway) not the hole autobahn.
I think the highway patrols in Sweden and in Germany are friendlier than US highway patrols if you get caught for driving 100-150 mph on a highway with a speed limit of 65mph.

I will stick w\my sbc it's smooth,plenty of torque for me.

I had the pleasure to run a trail behind some Canadian deisel Cruisers all I can say is it Sucked:D:D

60series cruizer guy:

I wasn't calling you an idiot - just that it would be crazy not to do the swap. Sometimes it's hard to jusge what people mean without tone of voice gestures etc, so i apologize.

As for mileage I was quoting my 2L diesel for pickup not 3B.

I agree completely with what you said. Personally i don't have any experience or knowledge with the landcruizer diesels and can only offer my experience with the L series. A diesel swap is not a good idea unless you have the cash to upgrade everything.

Sorry for any confusion.

FYI the 1984 2L's (2whdr) factory mileage for highway was 49mpg, they didn't know about the 4whdr.

Nowhere did i say that i get 35 at 110.
At 80/90 kmh depending on hills/lights etc when i drove through montana i hit 42mpg

at 110kmh again depending on hills usually around 30mpg (They built an expressway near my town)

i average around 35. I know this because i record my mileage on my receipts when i buy fuel and every month i check to see if there has been a drop. It's handy in case you don't notice any problems.

Mileage is difficult to give exact numbers because it is different every time you drive. I cringe every time i see a hill coming. The more black you see the lower your mileage. In town i am in 5th (60-65kmh) as often as i can.

Mr diesel,

hold it hold it!. A 2L in a 2wd? Mini truck!?

First, this has no relevance on a 4wd and certainly none on a heavy duty cruiser frame (even the 2L-T's are snub nose 7X series with a far lighter chassis-and gutless). There is no need to respond. Please speak only to a heavy duty land cruiser based vehicle.

Re read all the posts on the swap idea. Cost wise, a small block for the mileage most 4X series get is the single best option (or just dump in another donor 2F). 3B powered LC's here (in lower 48) are a novelty. Then there are issues like traffic and needs for acceleration (unless you really want to be hated on the road). And forget a 3B in a station wagon for daily use. 2L's are not even an option-rubber bands maybe.

rick
who has driven enough in a non turbo 3B to be nervous on a freeway in So Cal.

Got that from the canadian government because they had no listing for 4whdr

My rig weighs 1000kg front axle, 750 rear(unloaded)

I posted it just for reference. Which series are you talking about - the mid 80's wagon style or the BJ style?

Low end speed is deadly but once you are up to freeway speeds 65/75mph they cruise along quite nicely as long as there are no hills. I'll have to check them out more closely, only looked at the 3B and the 2L is quite a bit smaller.

I have the smaller motor and i'm more nervous in town and on hills than on the freeway.

www.geocities.com/mrdieselpa/toyota-diesel.html

A properly geared BJ60, with an AXT turbo and an H55F will not cause any concerns on a freeway. Our BJ60 was regeared to 4.56 with 34.0" tires. That's like 4.11s with 30.6" or the stock 3.70s with tiny 27.5s. Imagine how a stock BJ60 would go with 215/75R15s, add a turbo. AXT claims 132 hp and 220 ft-lb, more than a 2F and i believe it. The real rocket motor in the B series would be the direct injection 14B with 3.66L, 96 hp @ 3400 and 177 ft-lb. Add a turbo and intercooler and get 160 hp and 280 ft-lb. About like a 1FZ-FE.
Like I said before, my BJ40 with early 2.98L B, 4.88s and only 32.2" tires and H41 starts easily even uphill in 2nd, accelerates very quickly up to 4th direct, only 4th OD (0.72 X 4.875 = 3.50) is kind of doggy. Especially now with hubs locked and temps -10 to +15 F. It still can get up to 125 kph.
The B motors are sturdy things with some significant power potential if massaged properly. But gearing is absolutely critical. Not like either making up for the lack of an overdrive in a 4.11/V8J40 by running at 70 mph at 3100 rpm all day OR making up for wide gearing jumps and a tall 4th gear in a 3.70 V8J60 with 35s and a SM420 with pure horsepower. Anyone contemplating a diesel swap must contemplate which 5 spd will work (or 4spd/Ranger hopefully with good split on 3rd also) and adjust gearing/tire size for a fairly precise rpm range at 60 mph in the tallest gear: 23-2400 for BJ40, 24-2500 for BJ60, 1-200 rpm lower with turbo. It still lets you run at 75 and the 17% gearing step-up (1/0.845 - 1 ~ 0.17) allowed by 5th in an H55F makes them "competitive" with F/2F/3Fs in city driving.
Attempting to make up for improper gearing with turbocharging and high fuel settings will result in excessively high EGTs and excessive fuel consumption.
Charlie

Charles Aarons
When you turbocharge the 3B do you buy/install the optional fuel enrichment kit?

No, both on my BJ40 with DAC and the BJ60 without DAC run fine just with the turbo and the stock throttle body/vacuum controlled governor. No smoke, good EGTs, good power. DAC = diesel altitude compensator.
Charlie

What does the DAC do? I thought that diesels did not need to compensate for atlitude changes. What is that enrichment kit? Never heard of either.

I'm only running 235/75/15 highway tires because i havn't been off road because of my tidy tank. I miss my 31's, maybe for springtime.

How many of you guys are running tachs?

Of course diesels need to adjust for altitude, especially naturally aspirated ones.
480Kkm and haven't gone offroad. Better get some good tires, lockers and a winch while you still have a BJ40.
The fuel enrichment kit is sort of a DAC for rigs that don't stay at sea level adding an AXT kit, also for smoke puff control in emission controlled areas - IOW it limits fuel till boost builds.
Charlie

What altitudes require this?

I've been over 5000ft and had no problems.
I won't be adding a turbo anytime soon.

It's hard to take my truck offroad because i have a 250/300 litre tidy tank in the bed for work. When i took it out wheeling last year when i had my 31's is did awesome.

www.geocities.com/mrdieselpa/toyota-diesel.html

Anyone have the specs for the B engines?

If you don't have a DAC I wouldn't worry about it. if you go up over 7500' then a pyrometer even on a nonturbo motor would be a good idea.
For specs, try www.bitwalla.com or something like that. What do you want to know about B diesels?
Charlie

Thanks for the link, i've been to that site a long time ago.

Man there is a big difference between the B seires engines and the L sseries.

My 2L puts out 65 HP, 115ftlbs (only 2446cc)


3B 90/93/98HP 159/163/167 ftlbs

Quite a few subtle differences between the two.
My batteries are in parallel so only 12volts

asked the guys about their diesel mileage
www.bc4x4.com and go to toyota message board

Originally posted by raider89
I sold my last FJ40 24 years ago. And, I never owned one with a stock engine (2 - 327). So, even though I've had a few 40's, I am as bad off as a newbie when it comes to knowing what a stock diesel or gas engine is like.

I want a 40 series body style again. I don't believe the 2H was ever in the 40 series. As I recall, the best diesel engine in a 40 series was the 3B (BJ42 in early 80's).

As far as parts availabilty, I understand that the parts are not difficult to get because of their use in some Hino forklifts and they are available through Canadian sources at the worst.

my 1984 BJ42, has a factory tachometer, factory 5 speed, factory air conditioning and factory power steer
i put a turbo on the 3B, and was MIGHTY impressed, i have since dropped a 2H into my 42, shorty and LOVE it, turbo'ed and all now, with power steer (for the SLIGHT) power gain all the effort to go 2H was not worth it!!


the 2H in australia came in the longwheelbase troopies, utes, and 60 wagons, only the shorty was ever offered with the 3B here, but its a mission to swap between B and H
its easier to swap between H and F gearbox and engine mounts line up, whereas H and B, new mounts, new gearbox, radiator, rad hoses, not woth it