ill be needing some custom length front 44 shafts, and was wondering who has the best in terms of quality AND warranty. lets hear your experiences

Warn or Mosser. I am getting Warns.

Moser's Site (http://www.moserengineering.com)

Warn alloys are far superior to Moser's imho. Moser's alloy has a much softer core then warn's. (Difference in the hardening process). Buy Warn, you won't regret it

I have not use either one, but from an engineering standpoint I think the warns are better, I dont think the mosers have a softer core than the warns as they are both induction heat treated and besides, if you harded to the right depth, it doesn't matter how soft the core it (similar to a hollow axle). The warns are supposed to be 4340 I don't know what the Mosers are, but sometimes it doesnt matter what material it is if they dont heat treat it right. The main difference I see is that it doesn't appear that Moser heat treats the yoke on the end and the warns do heat treat the end yoke and that is where most poeple have problems.

the mosers are made out of 1541 same as most o.e.m. , and are induction hardened then the splines are cut, the warns are 4340 thru hardened and the splines are cut prior to heat treating. The warns are more superior to moser any way you want to look at it !:D :D :D

Didn't Warn stop doing custom lengths though? Granted he could use Warn OUTERS... But still needs a custom inner length.

Rick
77 CJ7 HP60 / 609 front

this was a hot topic like 3-4 months ago, the main answer was Warn's were the best

But you did say Custom lenght, Warn does not do that anymore, so then Moser's will be the best

warn has a one time replacement
moser none!

warn doesnt but dutchman takes warns blanks and makes customs for people

I also need some axle shafts made. I plan on using Warns in the front since I'm building a HP44 to Waggy length. I do need a pair of custom rear shafts built for my rear XJ D44 to match the front bolt pattern. Strength is a big concern since I picked up a Klune V and an Atlas 3.8 since starting the axle build up. Would Moser or Dutchman axles be a better choice? Or is there some on else who builds better custom axle shafts?

Thanks

there are several companies that make custom shafts or should I say will cut them to length for you from dana spicer blanks, and tere are companies that have various types of 4130 and 4340 blanks that they cut to length , and there are companies that will make cromoly shafts from start to finish there self , and ctm will make 300m doulbe splined shafts so pick the one you want:D

I think that Dutchman is better. I believe that dutchman uses a 4140?? alloy while moser uses the 1541. The 4140 being a superior alloy.

So Im down at the camo glitter factory, and he took me over to Sandy Cone's shop. Sandy builds some trick $hit! :eek::eek::eek: Can you say 46 spline gun drilled 300m Chro-Mo Dana 60 axles? I knew you could. :D He is also building 35 spline spools for Dana 44's. He also said that he *could* build front Dana 44 axles out of 300m chromo, but the equipment is thousands of dollars and he doesn't think the demand would be big enough. :(

A friend of mine broke an axle u-joint last month on sledge.

He was running warn axles and the yokes were not damaged.

Originally posted by techguru73
...the warns are 4340 thru hardened and the splines are cut prior to heat treating.

I believe Warn rolls the splines. ;)

Is it true that Dutchman uses Warn's blanks for customs? Does anyone else? Where is Drivetrain Direct getting the 4340 shafts they are advertising but wont be avaliable for a month?

Originally posted by TJoop


I believe Warn rolls the splines. ;)

your wrong :-P

Originally posted by P&T jeeps
Where is Drivetrain Direct getting the 4340 shafts they are advertising but wont be avaliable for a month?

Just a guess, but isn't DTD in bed with Superior?

Not that that's bad or anything, it's just that they seem to have some sort of distribution agreement in place with Superior.

Jake

Originally posted by Lance
So Im down at the camo glitter factory, and he took me over to Sandy Cone's shop. Sandy builds some trick $hit! :eek::eek::eek: Can you say 46 spline gun drilled 300m Chro-Mo Dana 60 axles? I knew you could. :D He is also building 35 spline spools for Dana 44's. He also said that he *could* build front Dana 44 axles out of 300m chromo, but the equipment is thousands of dollars and he doesn't think the demand would be big enough. :(

HELL YES - GET IT!!!!!!

p.s. send me a set of 300m 44 shafts for "testing" :flipoff2:

Who has the best price on Warn inners? I've seebthe MSRP at around $199 a side, but it seems like someone could beat that. I'm too busy to be calling around to a hundred different vendors. Plus I'd rather spend time after work drinking beer.

So what kinda prices has everyone seen on these babies?

ANDY

To clear a few things up.
1. Warn does not through harded their shafts, they are induction harded just like moser and all of the oem stuff (you can tell by the black color, at the shows warn has a cut away showing the induction hardened case, and the same guy that sold us our induction scanner sold one to warn. This is why Moser uses the 1541 because if you are just induction hardening, you don't need 4340. The main advantages of using 300M, 4340, 4140 is that it can be through hardened, most other alloys can't, and you can say you are using aircraft steel and chromoly. There is nothing wrong with 1541 and induction hardening, but it does has it's limitations, it seems to be working just fine for moser, dutchman, currie and Dynatrac.

2. Warn does not roll the splines, they cut them with a gear hob, you can tell just by looking at them, they have to cut them before heat treat to have any life out of the cutters. It really doesnt matter if Dutchman or Currie is cutting the splines of the warns after HT because they are not cutting through the case, they do this by cutting one spline at a time, using carbide tooling that is way cheaper than a hob, but it doesn't cut a true involute spline like a gear hob does.

3. DTD is!!! superior axle which is Foot axle. They specialize in making flanged axles, mostly big truck stuff. They also make currie's axles, Sandy's spool forgings and maybe Dutchmans ( but I'm not sure on that).
Superior Axle is making there own D44 front axles, but they are not done yet hence the month wait. They will be made of 4140, through hardened to about RC35 (to HT the yoke) and then induction hardened on the shaft to get it to its max strength ( this is from the horses mouth). Foot has a bitchen rack roller so unless the are custom length, they will probably have rolled splines. In my opinoin these will be as good or better than the warns.

Originally posted by andrewburroughs
To clear a few things up.
1. Warn does not through harded their shafts, they are induction harded just like moser and all of the oem stuff (you can tell by the black color, at the shows warn has a cut away showing the induction hardened case, and the same guy that sold us our induction scanner sold one to warn. This is why Moser uses the 1541 because if you are just induction hardening, you don't need 4340. The main advantages of using 300M, 4340, 4140 is that it can be through hardened, most other alloys can't, and you can say you are using aircraft steel and chromoly. There is nothing wrong with 1541 and induction hardening, but it does has it's limitations, it seems to be working just fine for moser, dutchman, currie and Dynatrac.

You are partially correct, Warn rear shafts are induction hardened to retain some elastisity at the core. The fronts on the other hand are through hardened, this is the only way that you can ensure a proper heattreat to the yoke. There is a disadvantage to this in that there is little or no give in the shafts, which can be a little hard on ujoints (mostly for mud boggers and sand dragging where you are launching the vehicle).

Originally posted by P&T jeeps
Is it true that Dutchman uses Warn's blanks for customs? Does anyone else? Where is Drivetrain Direct getting the 4340 shafts they are advertising but wont be avaliable for a month?

For their front axles

Originally posted by Blackjack


There is a disadvantage to this in that there is little or no give in the shafts, which can be a little hard on ujoints (mostly for mud boggers and sand dragging where you are launching the vehicle).

What do you mean by give? Torsional elastic twisting under torque or permanent twisting because the material has yielded?

Originally posted by andrewburroughs


What do you mean by give? Torsional elastic twisting under torque or permanent twisting because the material has yielded?

Torsional elsastic twisting under torque.

The torsional elastic twisting of an axle has absolutely nothing to do with heat treating, It is only a function of the diameter and the torsional modulus of elasticity which is the same for all steels and doesn't change with heat treating. Heat treating does not change how much an axle twists when loaded (or torsion spring rate) it only allows an axle to twist further before the material yields or takes a permanent set. what you were talking about mud or sand drags can only be accomplished by making the axle smaller to allow it to twist to absorb energy that would have gone into breaking the joint. we do this alot with the desert race trucks that have the big chrisman rearends, we make the minor diameter if the axle small so the axle is able to twist, this takes stress off the ring and pinion,driveshaft and tranny. The axles can take the extra twisting and abuse because they are made of 300m and heat treated.

Too bad these guys don't do front axle stuff.. but if you need a bulletproof rear.. and I mean bulletproof.. and want to drop the cash, www.markwilliams.com

umm moser makes an alloy shaft, not sure on the details but it is 295 for a pair

Don't know who andrewburroughs is but sounds like we have someone here that knows his stuff.
I know Moser uses the 1541 for rears because it gives them much higher fatigue life than higher grade alloys, obviously there's a lot of generality there, but that's what they claim to be after.
I'm pretty interested to see superior's front axles, they seem to have their act together and have awesome manufacturing ability to back it up.
Dutchman cuts warn blanks to custom length, but much of that custom work can be avoided by picking the width of the axle from what they have available off the shelf.
I heard that John Dyke from Dirt tricks custom cut a set of D44 shafts from some chromo billet several years ago, like 15 I think, for a jeep race truck he was building/running. I've seen the truck but didn't know to look at the shafts at the time. It does throw a lot of power at 35" tires on a heavy righ though.
Shouldn't be a huge deal to cut them from billet, it's just the $$ involved. Do you want a $1500 pair of axles or a D60?

all axles manufactors use 1541 and a few other low cost steel alloys due to cost and ease of manufactor. 1541 is a good choice for axles in terms of longevity etc , but your better alloys starting out with 4130 and 4340 , have a much high resistance to breakage but comprimise longevity in terms of years they will eventually fatigue and break as well. Ahigh quaility shaft willbe machined smoth surface through out the shaft to reduce stress risers, most will be gun bored not only to reduce weight but they are actually stronger by having to surfaces to fracture .They will have rolled or hobbed splines, and be hardened after cutting of the splines. Warn has the best shaft for the buck that there is in a dana 44 axle shaft that is mass produced:D

Axle manufactures use 1541H because its the best stuff to use for their applications. They induction case harded their axles; hence the use of 1541H because it doesnt through harden like 4340, they would be wasting money using 4340 because they are not and do not need to harden the core.
You would be stupid to make an axle out of 4130 because it's not a good idea to harden it high enough for the strength that axles require. And gun drilled axles are not any stronger because they have another surface on the inside, the outer surface will always fracture first because the stress is highest at the outer surface.
Mosers 1541H axles probably do have a higher fatigue life than an axle made the same way out of 4340, this is mostly because moser's are induction case harded, when you induction case harden an axle, the process leaves residual compressive stresses on the surface, this greatly improves the fatigue life. You can still make a better axle out 4340 by through hardening but you have to be more carefull about stress risers, you should make the shaft smaller than the root of the spline, and leave generous radii in the corners, the surface finish is even more important at these higher hardnesses, a ground and polished surface is best. You also have to be carefull of surface decarborization during heat treat, thats why we grind our axles after heat treat.

Originally posted by andrewburroughs
thats why we grind our axles after heat treat.

Who is "we"? :confused:

your full of sh@t on the gundrilling I agree on the ground surface as well as use of a ground suface throughout the shaft . 1541h is a cost wise alternative to more expensive alloys:D :D :D :rasta:

Yeah, 1541H has alot to do with cost, the way those axles are designed, manufactured and used, a better alloy will do nothing for you but waste money. They could make them out of 4340, but they would have be profiled differently, heat treated diffferently and would basicaly be a totally different product at twice the price. It is the difference between a $300 set of Moser axles and a $550 set of Mark Williams axles. How many people here have had problems with Moser axles? For what they are used for, they have been more than adequate.

On the gundrilling: prove it, show me a book, article, equation or something.

The "we" is Sway-A-Way, I work as an Engineer there, We have been making shocks for a few years now but we have been making axles, torson bars and antiswaybars for off-road racing, circle track, and sprint cars for 20 yrs. We make most of the axles and torsion bars for off-road racing, both 4340 and 300M, from VW torsion bars to 2 1/2" gundrilled 300M axles for trophy trucks that cost $3500/set.

most will be gun bored not only to reduce weight but they are actually stronger by having to surfaces to fracture

Better take the "Guru" part out of your screen name! You were doing Ok up to this little flub. It's just plane wrong, a rumour, rubbish, bullshit, whatever you want to call it.

Axles are gundrilled to save weight, period. And you lose very little strength...but they are certainly NOT stronger.

Next you'll be telling me that hollow tube is stronger than solid (equal OD), grade 5 bolts have greater shear strength than grade 8 (same size), and a driven splined shaft is stronger if it "necks up" from the splines !!

Back to the books!

Andrew....welcome, very glad to have you - keep upthe good info.

sweet info Andrew!!

Good to have such good info from Engr
like you !


Welcome!


Adam,

Originally posted by BillaVista



Axles are gundrilled to save weight, period. And you lose very little strength...but they are certainly NOT stronger.

.

true................ but having gun drilled axles also make you cooler than the next guy so that has to count for something. :D

I would agree that a gun drilled axle isn't any stronger but it is more forgiving. what I mean is that it can take alot more twisting before breaking than a solid one. With a drilled axle it distributes the tortional load accross the whole axle not just at the end of the splines or whatever the weakest point is. Look at a used gun drilled axle and see how twisted it is and didn't break.

Originally posted by camo


true................ but having gun drilled axles also make you cooler than the next guy so that has to count for something. :D


ROFLMAO:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Adam,

WOW, very cool to have some experts, with the real dope on all of the high tech axle mumbo jumbo. Although its helpfull to hear from all of us yahooos explaining what has, worked and what hasent, under trail conditions,...its nothing like getting an education on the science behind the high dollar swag.
I know that this high tech stuff works, because Ive had a chance to try some of it. I have been amazed by how strong the CTM 300m U joints are, I have not been able to break them, and I have been beating the piss out of em.
Who knows, maybe a D60 swap is not mandatory.

Thanks Andrew, for the real scoop(and even in understandable language for those of us who have only recently learned to walk upright).

well I have a problem with moser 1541 axles. for the majority or us, we need an axle that is as close to industructible on a one time overload. I have personally twisted moser axles. Warn axles, for whatever reason (i believe that the fact that they use a superior alloy, and thru harden there fornt axle shafts) are STRONGER. For most rock crawlers, an axle that has a better resistance to twisting on a one time overload are better, hence my decison to buy Warn Axles thru dutchman

Thanks for support (BV) on clearing up the BS. RCKRATZ, Mosers do have their limitations and looks like your there. Moser, Currie, and Dutchman buy axle blanks that are pre-machined with the bearing journals ground, and induction hardened. When you order axles, they just cut it to length, machine the flange for your brakes, drill the bolt pattern and cut the splines hard. If you need more than these axles, you should buy Mark Williams or Summers Bros., they make axles the right way, the minor diameter of the axle is smaller that the root of the splines, this reduces stress risers and allows the entire lenth of the axle to twist rather than twisting off the end of the spline, they are made of 4340, through hardeded and ground after HT.

I too think the warn axles are better than Moser, mostly because they harden the yokes where most people have problems.

I'll post some pics of the 35 spline gun drilled floater axles I made for my RC 60 when I get a chance. They were actually made of 4340 tubing, we buy it for winston cup 9" floater axles so we have enough to get a mill run, it is the perfect size for 35 spline axles, If anyone is interested, we might be able to make them for you.

you should buy Mark Williams or Summers Bros., they make axles the right way, the minor diameter of the axle is smaller that the root of the splines, this reduces stress risers and allows the entire lenth of the axle to twist rather than twisting off the end of the spline,

Dear god, I wish you were here a few months ago!

I made a post titled "who makes a shaft with the proper "neck down" and you should have seen the beating I took...

All kinds of people telling me things like "that weakens the shaft" and "book learning is for geeks" and it even turned into a good bashing of Engineers in general.

It was hillarious....but I'm glad to see somebody agree with me:)

I was there with you man, I used to go by "GOAT1" but when they changed the software my user name got changed to my login name. Maybe the Pirate4x4.com boss can fix it? I have emailed them a few times with no response.

Originally posted by BillaVista


Better take the "Guru" part out of your screen name! You were doing Ok up to this little flub. It's just plane wrong, a rumour, rubbish, bullshit, whatever you want to call it.

Andrew....welcome, very glad to have you - keep upthe good info.

Bwaaaahhhhaaahhh .................... yea Goat1. Its nice to see you RIPPIN it. You, CalPolyStud and Gordon make for some excellent engineering info here. I offically nominate you guys as pirate4x4 GURUz. Oh yea one more thing. Where did you say you guys went to school??? :D

What part of IT includes Engineering :fj: ?

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you should buy Mark Williams or Summers Bros., they make axles the right way, the minor diameter of the axle is smaller that the root of the splines, this reduces stress risers and allows the entire lenth of the axle to twist rather than twisting off the end of the spline,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Dear god, I wish you were here a few months ago!

I made a post titled "who makes a shaft with the proper "neck down" and you should have seen the beating I took...

All kinds of people telling me things like "that weakens the shaft" and "book learning is for geeks" and it even turned into a good bashing of Engineers in general.

It was hillarious....but I'm glad to see somebody agree with me





sorry i missed that thread......in offroad racing this is common knowledge.

Ahhhh...so!

Goat1 - Cool, glad to know you! Wondered where the Goat had gone :)

Glad "you're back" :rasta:

We still talkin' about CrMo here?

Anyone making alloy replacement outers for D30 type wheel bearing assembly?

Any of you axle gurus heard of a material called HY-TUF. There is a guy down here in oz making axles out of this stuff for Rovers and it is supposed to be the latest and greatest stuff.

Also how do materials like en25 and en26 corrolate to the types of materials that you are talking about (4140 4340 etc)

Thanks

Sam

Strange Engineering build 35 and 40 spline race axles from "Hy Tuf" (originally designed for highly stressed landing gear in military aircraft). It's a high nickel alloy steel, and when thru hardened has a tensile strength of 240 000 psi.

These guys make a 40 spline 2" thru hardened solid axle shaft from hy Tuf good to 5000HP and 300mph in a top fuel car.

That's all I know - but I'd guess it's a pretty good alloy!!:p

A quick scan of my books shows no ref. to en25. Whose numer / desig is that? It's not ANSI or SAE??

I havn't had much experience with Hy-Tuff but this is what I know about it. It is comperable to 4340, in some applications it may be better and in some applications 4340 is better, they both should be through hardened, but in general it is not as good as 4340 but it's significantly cheaper. It is not considered "chromoly" because is doesn't have as enough of the moly (molybdenum), but it still has alot of chrome and nickel, the big difference is it has about 3% silicon. Actually 300M is AKA 4340 Modified, it is basically 4340 with added silicon and vanadium. Any way, Hy-Tuff gets it toughness because of the high silicon content, it forms lingitudinal fibers or strings of silicon. This limits the efficient use of Hy-Tuff to parts with minimal section changes and virtually no transverse machining (we dont want to cut the longitudinal strings that make the stuff tough to start with). Basically it is best used for exactly what Strange makes out of it, flanged axles and double splined floater axles. Flanged axles have the ends forged which doesnt cut the silicon fibers, it just moves them around and makes the part extremely tough. Floater axles dont have much section change so they work well too. You probably dont want to make billet u-joints out of it or make front axles where the hole for the u-joint cut right trough it either.

I think that Strange's claim of 240 ksi is pretty optimistic and they say their 40 spline axles are 2", but they are really 1.71"

I think that the en25 or en36 designation may be an Aust Standards designation. Another guy down here that makes axles uses EN26 (i think but may be EN25) and he says that it is the same stuff that everyone makes axles out of (like big truck axles) so Im guessing that the material may be the same as 1541. Ive never heard of the EN designations either but knew of 4340 and 4140 from my uni days. The hy-tuff guy reckons that his axles have the same yield strength as the EN guy and have a much better fatigue performance. Niether of their axles are necked down and both just have the splines cut into the basic diameter and I guess from what you both are saying that this shouldnt matter too much given the materials fatigue strength.

Great information guys. Ive learnt plenty about axle design and materials etc from reading this thread.

BTW Ive got dana 44 under my Rover (from a 79 mod Scout II). Beautifully made axles. 30 spline, necked down smooth transitions etc.... Im guessing these factory axles are made from something like 1541.

Thanks again

Sam

Here are the pics of my axles. www.polyperformance.com/pics.htm
The hump near the end is for inner axle seals. They are made of 4340, 1 1/2"-35 spline on both ends for a Dana 60, 1.3 OD with a .688 ID, it is a 28% reduction in weight with only a 8% loss in strength vs the same axle that is solid.

The big axle is the 2 9/16"-40 spline that we make for the Chrisman rearend. These ones are for Damien Jeffrey's Trophy Truck that just won the Best in the Desert championship, about 750 hp, 37" BFG projects, and 26" front and 30" rear wheel travel. They get so much traction, they tear the tires apart, in the dirt! The axles are made from 300M, and cost about $3500 per pair. One of the pictures shows that a 35 spline axle fits inside the chrisman axle.

Oh oh. We're talking solid versus hollow here.

Calling Eric Ruhl . . . please pick up the white courtesy phone. Eric Ruhl . . . :flipoff2: :D :flipoff2: :D :flipoff2: :D :flipoff2: :D

CTM or Sandy Cone