Hey guys, checking from ma and pa's place in N. Utah.

Weird thing happened today that has happened one other time in Vegas, and since it happened when my wife was with me in the car, I want to figure it out so it doesn't happen to her when she's driving alone and freaks out (potentially).

I'm going along about 70-ish and hit some railroad tracks nearly perpendicularly. Standard RR x-ing, single tracks.

As soon as I get across the tracks I get the dreaded death wobble with the steering wheel jerking back and forth violently about 4-6 inches back and forth.

Slowed down and pulled off the road, the wobbling didn't really slow down at all until I was at about 25 mph.

My wife glares at me and says 'if this ruins my shopping I'm really going to be mad'. She thought we had a flat tire and it would take forever to change.

I pulled back onto the road and we headed on our way (she sucessfully completed her shopping).

This happened to me once in Vegas, similar situation, but the first time I had hit a pot hole pretty squarely on the freeway.

Truck is '94 LWB, 3-inch RTE lift, 235-85-16's, Rancho 9000's set on 3-4 (can't remember), non castor corrected anything, all bushings rougly 40K on them, axles fully rebuilt 2 years ago (preloads, everything).

I'm wondering if the shocks are shot, and if that would enhance the wobble, but I'm kind of leaning towards bushings and/or preload???

Has anyone definitively defined 'Death Wobble' and it's causes/solutions???

My wife is now nervous to drive the truck so I want to get it taken care of pretty quickly.

Thanks!

You hit some Rail Road tracks doing 70! :eek:

I dunno what your tracks are like out west, but with some of the tracks are around here death wobble would the least of your worries.

Sorry I have no other worthwhile information. Slow night at the Dungbeetle's crib.

Michael, how's the steering Stabilizer?

My XJ had been experiencing the same thing when I'd hit large bumps on the highway (or anywhere really at speed...)...My 32x9.5 TSLs were worse, but even the BFG AT's I run on the street would do it around 70...my steering stabilizer turned out to be the instigating factor (excaberated by the castor issue...) the wobble is onset by the bump and then the beast would start cycling back and forth, unchecked by the crappy damper.

Replaced the stabilizer and now while driving in a similar situation, I can tell it WANTS to happen, but the stabilizer keeps thins calm.

What you experienced, when the wobble didn't stop until 25mph, is also a good indicator that it could be the steering damper...

Mike

I had the problem for ages... Tried a bunch of shit that never worked and then I happened to put new front shocks in and that solved it, just like that...

Hope that helps..
The other possible issues are as you mentioned , bushings, preload, panhard bushings.


btw.. whats that Trek thing your doing in a week or so? Can I come and watch? :D

Cheers

Thanks for the ideas guys.

The steering stabilizer is 2 years old, I replaced everything when I rebuild the front end and put in the ARB's when I first got the truck.

I hadn't thought about it actually, it's an OME, and is easily replaced. I thought about putting new Rancho's on it (9000's) too. How long *should* a shock last with moderate off-road use?

Now...the more pressing problem is the ABS pump failure is iminent! Shiat! Of course it decided to do it when I'm 450 miles from home where I have ALL of the parts to do the non-ABS conversion. :rolleyes: I think I can nurse it home. :eek: Bad thing is, along with the Death Wobble happening while my wife was in the truck, the brakes were going very very soft with my wife driving. When it rains it pours eh? :mad:

Oh, and the TReK thing isn't *my* event, and no I can't invite anyone else, it's not my party, I'm just lucky I get to go, honestly.

A steering stabalizer is more of a bandaid..you should be able tp dial in your steering without one. Lots of toy and jeep guys run without them.

Being a Rover idiot I have no idea where to start, but I doubt its the stabalizer.

Oh yea, how is logan? I can't wait to get out of Portland :D

Justin

The same thing happened in mine and it was the Panard Rod Bushes..

sounds like its one of 2 things. more than likely the swivel pre-load, or the panhard rod bushes.

the swivel preload is easy to see, jack the front end up, grab a wheel at top and bottom (like 12:00 and 06:00 hrs position) and try and wiggle. if the wheel moves (then crank your head around the back and wiggle again) you'll see the whole hub unit moving, then its the swivel preload. quickest (read: bodge) way to do this is remove the wheel, undo the 2 bolts that hold the top swivel pin in place, then remove the pin (oil WILL leak out of the swivel oil seal!!!) and remove the thinnest shim, re-assemble and you're done. its kinda a short~medium fix, but eventually the swivel beaings will need replacing and adjusting properly.

the panhard rod, you can't really see that well. get someone to crank the steering back and forward while you lay under the front and see if you can see the axle/rod moving against the chassis when the steering is moved.

Mike,

The same thing is happening in my Series 3 109. My suspension is less than 1 year old (incl. shocks) but I do not run a steering stabilizer.

I'm about to replace my Panard rod (the tie rod that goes from each wheel) with new Panard rod (bent the old one) and new bushes. I'll report back if it made a difference.

You might want to put the truck up on jack stands (you brought jack stands....RIGHT???) and have your wife turn the steering wheel back and forth while you look and see if something is obviously wrong. On my truck, there appears to be a loose component @ the steering relay.

Hope this helps!!

Max T.

Originally posted by LR Max


I'm about to replace my tie rod (the tie rod that goes from each wheel) with new tie rod (bent the old one) and new bushes. I'll report back if it made a difference.


The panard rod is the lateral locating link for the front axle on coil sprung trucks.

-Jeff

Edit: and yes a bent tierod (too much toe out) can be a contributing source to the problem.

Don't forget to check the rubber puck on the steering shaft. These shear/crack ALL the time causing this same symptom. It happens real gradually, so you don't notice the wander until they really go.

Here:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102330&highlight=steering

j

I don't agree with the steering damper being a band-aid in this situation...

I do think that is the case a lot, but he his railroad tracks at 70...isn't that what the sttering damper is for?!!?!?

I would replace the damper and be done with it...if it were any of the other issues, you would probably notice it every time you hit a bridge deck....

Anyway...even if it is a bandaid...it is a bandaid for a problem that rarely happens...and for now it if a lot cheaper and a lot less time than messing arouind with the other stuff...

I like the Rancho stabilizers, if they still sell them....

Dave

I read a couple of years ago of a quick fix for a failing pump. Never tried it becuase I have no ABS, but seems logical. The owner heated up brake fluid in the microwave (for like 30-45secs) and then poured it into an empty resevoir and began to bleed and flush the pump. He repeated this until no more dirty fluid came out. The pump then worked like a champ. Maybe worth a try, nothing to loose except a couple of bucks worth of fluid.

First off, is it the ABS pump, or the accumulator? All too often, the pump runs on and the owner repalces the pump, only to find later that it was a bad accumulator forcing the pump to run until the pump died and earlier replacement of the accumulator would have solved the problem.

Secondly, I have been suffering from the death wobbles for quite some time and have taken all of the band-aid approaches until recently when I FINALLY broke down and did my swivel pre-load. SUC-FAWKIN'-CESS! I have eliminated 95% of the front end shakes.

In doing this, I have so far replaced tires, shock, springs, universal joints, steering stabilizer (relocated as well), and finally the swivel preload.

Had I not been a lazy bastid, I would have done the preload first. This would have been a very good thing as I learned yesterday that while my truck may no longer bounce uncontrollably after crossing a certain railroad track on the way to work, the "Railko" bushing is pretty much shot on at least one of my swivel balls. I was dismayed to find the pattern of the railko embossed into the steel of the top swivel pin! It appeared to be on the outboard side of pin. So, now it looks as though I'll be replacing both swivels (hope to have a used set on the way any day now), and when I receive them, I'll have a chance to replace everything inside with the possible exception of CV which are still doing fine at 175K+.

I am hoping that a tire balance and replacement of radius arm and panhard rod bushings will solve the remaining wobble. I'm gonna go poly on the bushings...

Peace,
Paul

Mike,

I removed four shims from each swivel to stop the death wobble. The real fix is to replace the swivel bearings and then reinstall the shims. Don't be afraid to remove shims since you got some mileage on her. Steering damper is just a band aid as mentioned already. Also, make sure the panhard rod bushings show no movement using a prybar.

Ali

Originally posted by alia176
Mike,

I removed four shims from each swivel to stop the death wobble. The real fix is to replace the swivel bearings and then reinstall the shims. Don't be afraid to remove shims since you got some mileage on her. Steering damper is just a band aid as mentioned already. Also, make sure the panhard rod bushings show no movement using a prybar.

Ali

It would be difficult to say to someone, just remove X number of shims. There are several different thicknesses and I find that I have to mix and match to get swivels where I want them. IIRC shim thicknesses are available from 0.003" to 0.030".

I have cross references for the bearings if anybody needs them.

Paul,

This is a quick fix for Slade while he's at his parents. Just remove teh top four shims and be done with it. All you're doing is removing some of the slack out of the swivel so his wife won't kill him once they get home. Polly will kill him anyway I suppose :D

While I appreciate your suggestion, I was fearful that someone who had never done this before would jump in, remove four shims and find his wheels won't turn.

Also, I believe that Mike has set swivel preload previously on one of his Rovers.

Still would not put all the focus on the swivels...

He stated the axles were fully rebuilt 2 years ago and only 40k on the bushings...

I would look at shocks, steering damper, and tire balance/roundness.

Dave

(Who just replaced/fixed EVERYTHING on the front of his 4.6 and still has the wobbles sometimes...next the tires (cause it is time anyway) and then the shocks and damper...

While I can understand not wanting to place all of the blame on the swivels, I suspect that many folks avoid this process as it is somewhat daunting, however, I have found it to be one of the easier and certainly least expensive remedial actions one can take when confronted with the death wobbles.

As it was recently stated on the general 4X4 board, the dreaded death wobbles can be, and are caused by a combination of conditions which all combine to give up the wobbles.

We should be looking at this from a more holistic viewpoint-inspect and repair/replace:
bushings
tie rod ends
tires
shocks
universal joints and condition of sliding joint
wheel bearings (although I consider them to be bulletproof)
swivels

Given that list, obviously, the most expensive is the tire replacement (unless you're running Fox or Blingensteins). But on the other end of the spectrum is the swivel preload which is a near-free job with great opportunity for success. Equally easy and nearly as inexpensive is the tie rod ends. They're so cheap I consider them to be disposable. Next, universals (drive a badly vibrating truck and you'll know why I included it here), and finally wheel bearings.

Logically, or financially, it makes some sense to consider the swivels early on in a death wobble exorcism.

My 109 did this once and it scared the piss out of me. Never did it ever again. The only thing I changed was a set of new tires. My theory was that it was the wheel balancing that fixed it but who knows. The truck has been completely torn up sicne then. I put about 1500-2000 miles on it after the new tires. Its probably BS, but who knows. Missing any weights on your rims? Crossing RR tracks at 70 mph might have knocked a few off!:flipoff2:

Good luck dude.

Simon

My 89 RRC had some of these symtoms, they then proceeded to get worse and worse. It finally got to the point where the wheel would move itself back and forth on a straight road, so I decided to check it out....
When we took off the hub and looked at the swivel ball, the ball itself had cracked at the bottom edge and pieces of it had been chipped off and were floating around in the front end...a few bearings were completely gone (almost disintigrated) and the spacers as well. Once I replaced all of this, the symptoms vanished!!! It was pretty cheap to do also...Thanks to Adam check for supply'n the good front end...
Well, hope this helps,

Ben

Wow, I must say I'm flattered at the amount and quality of the responses to my desperate pleadings. Here's what happened today:

Went to the car wash and spent a few bucks cleaning off the excess grime and filth from the leaking PS hoses so I could actually SEE what was going on under the front end. Got everything squeaky clean, then drove over to Bill Davis' at Great Basin Rovers.

After fielding several calls while I sat there and waited patiently (LWG was one of them! :flipoff2: ), we discussed the 'death wobble'.

Theory is theory, so we went out to the truck to see what was actually going on. Fired it up and he turned the wheel back and forth slowly so i could check the tie-rod ends. I did it for him while he crawled under, and he got out from under the truck and said "Look at your panhard rod bushings". I was wondering what the H he was talking about because I *KNEW* they were OK. After all, hadn't I replaced them when I rebuilt the axle less than 2 years ago? I crawled back under to check them out.

He had barely touched the wheel when I saw nearly 1/4 inch play in the bushings. The rod was barely being held in there by anything at all. The bushings had disintegrated! I was very dissapointed, because they are OME's and I hate to talk bad about a very good client, but I have to tell it like it is.

IMO, there are little to no places on a coil sprung truck that deserve poly bushings. We have slowly over the last 3-4 years been fine-tuning where they work and where they don't, and I'm slowly coming to the opinion that the factory rubber bushings are superior in nearly every situation. Off hand i can't think of any on any of my trucks that haven't failed at one time or another, and I've basically commited to going back to stock rubber bushes.

So...Bill makes a quick call to the Centerville LR Centre and I have an appointment within the hour. Not before purchasing a set of 3:54 ring and pinion gears for the lofty sum of 10 DOLLARS!!! That's right. He done me right, so I need to give him some kudos and maybe a :beer: or two. Thanks Bill!

Head up to the dealer and they get my panhard rod off and new bushings in in about an hour and a half, checked and tightened some radius arm bolts, changed some emissions hoses that were shot, got some freebies (license plate frames and a hat), and I'm on my way pretty happy.

Death wobble now gone after 350+ miles of highway and gravel roads coming home to Vegas.

The same can't be said for my ABS system though, I nursed it back home and lost pedal completely (for the 3rd time today) as I was making the last turns into the neighborhood. Man that pump can whine!

So, I have the OME bushings and I'll take a pic tomorrow and send it to someone. I'm going to start dissasembling the ABS system for a thorough non-ABS conversion over the next two days. I'm also going to put on DBA rotors and Willwood calipers in the front. If anyone is interested in how this goes, I'll document it sporadically from start to finish.

Oh, I also have a loose-ish left front wheel bearing that I'll be sure to tighten.

BTW, all of the ABS components will be for sale CHEAP to anyone who wants to play with them. I'm tired of it and have little to no interest in learning how to fix it. IMO the only fix is to get rid of it once and for all.

Anyway, thanks again for all the suggestions (I'll let someone else microwave the brake fluid and report back).

:flipoff2:

Michael,

Glad you got to the bottom of it. I had the 'death wobble' for a while. It was 90% cured by a swivel rebuild. I'm also in the process of replacing my 6 month old OME poly bushings with genuine rubber. What an expensive fucking experiment that was. So far I put the trailing arm bushings back to stock after finding this:

http://www.landroverstuff.com/images/omepos.jpg

The panhard rod bushings are next.

Cheers,

Steve

Steve,

I think the poly will fair better in a single axis of movement like your panhard rod. Also, since one end of the panhard rod gets bathed in PS fluid, I'd suspect that the longevity of the poly in this location is better than rubber bushing.

Ali,

Yeah, one of the reasons I got poly was the oil resistance. Since I recently put in a Meridian box, I'm not so worried about that any more. I'd prefer to get a little comfort and flex back. The poly increased road noise and vibration quite a bit.

Steve

Originally posted by Serious One
Wow, I must say Blah Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah The best way to fix this is to replace it with a non rover part blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
:flipoff2:


Glad you made it back safe ;)
There is a night run out at apex this weekend. It is one of the Vegas Valley 4 wheelers "tough" runs..
Got 35's yet???
:D

Steve,

Technically, you shouldn't be experiencing noise/flexing issues at the panhard rod locations. But it sounds like your heart is set on the oem bushings so go for it.

Originally posted by alia176
Steve,

Technically, you shouldn't be experiencing noise/flexing issues at the panhard rod locations. But it sounds like your heart is set on the oem bushings so go for it.

Funny, didn't you tell me to stick with OEM bushings on another board?:rolleyes:

:flipoff2:

When we goin' wheelin' again? Think Chris can make it this time?

Peace,
Paul

Ali,

I just picked the panhard rod cause it's the next easiest to change after the trailing arms and I'm a lazy bastard. I'm not expecting any major improvements, maybe a little softer road feel. I think the most improvement may be the axle ends of the arms when I get around to it.

(Michael, didn't mean to hijack your thread)

Feel free to hijack away man. I'm gonna be in Santa Fe until Wednesday anyway, so say whatever you want.

JasonM...blah blah blah NO blah blah blah NOT YET blah blah blah blah blah. :flipoff2:

I'm not going to be doing any more poly bushes any more on any of my trucks in the forseeable future. They keep failing on me when I don't think they should be, so I'm going to try the rubber OEM bushings for a while. We'll see how long it takes for me to get fet up with them.

M