If someone could make a Z-link that ran 90 degree angles, wouldn't that reduce bump steer to that of a high cross over steering arrangement? After all, isn't high cross over steering a big L link on its side? Really just a Z link with a leg removed, right?

I don't think so. Isn't it the vertical drop between the pitman and steering arms that cause bump steer??

Originally posted by lilgreenscout
I don't think so. Isn't it the vertical drop between the pitman and steering arms that cause bump steer??

Whaddya know, Matt's right. :D

High-steer, or drop pitman arm, both, .. or full hydro, Pat. :D

don't worry about it Hoop, I think this whole bumpsteer thing is a myth anyway. Just a conspiracy by the people who make high steer arms and spread by ones who can't rig up their on indestructable ugly ass Z-link.:flipoff2:

Hell my z-link weighs about 20 lbs, I have negative castor, and I can still cruise up to 30mph:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Hayraker
don't worry about it Hoop, I think this whole bumpsteer thing is a myth anyway. Just a conspiracy by the people who make high steer arms and spread by ones who can't rig up their on indestructable ugly ass Z-link.:flipoff2:

Hell my z-link weighs about 20 lbs, I have negative castor, and I can still cruise up to 30mph:flipoff2:

I'm with you Hayraker. I have no problem with bump steer, even with my soa and Z-Link.

It is all a conspiracy byt the high steer vendors!!! :D

HA!!


Patty's truck handles so bad... and he's so used to it... he doesn't notice!!!


*I* noticed my bump steer with my front 4" equivlent.... course, you can learn to live with it and it is not bad.


Personaly, High steer for me for the added strenth and to get my rods out of the rocks......

Originally posted by RustoleumWhite
HA!!


Patty's truck handles so bad... and he's so used to it... he doesn't notice!!!


*I* noticed my bump steer with my front 4" equivlent.... course, you can learn to live with it and it is not bad.


Personaly, High steer for me for the added strenth and to get my rods out of the rocks......

Could very well be :D I've learned to live with it.

Actually, it is much, much better after the soa. I built in lots of caster, new ball joints, new tie rod, new drag link, new bearings. Actually, everything up front is new. It actually drives straight down the road these days :D For a while there, it was downright scary. Not bad now though.

Gotta replace my exhaust donut again though.

I am lengthening my chains tonight.

Hey Rusty, you gonna cut trees with us tomorrow, or are you still going Sunday?

Sunday.


Up in the Steven's area, since you will be killing all the good trees where we were last year (and I have NO clue where that was :D)


Tomorrow is clean house, and start on the christmas lights!!!

Maybe even start on my new winch bumper......

Originally posted by RustoleumWhite
Sunday.


Up in the Steven's area, since you will be killing all the good trees where we were last year (and I have NO clue where that was :D)


Tomorrow is clean house, and start on the christmas lights!!!

Maybe even start on my new winch bumper......

Meaning you will be cleaning house and hanging lights.

Work on winch bumper, yeah right :D

Winch bumpers, trees and z-links...
Most of these have nothing to do with steering.
What is the best set up with an SOA? I was looking at the steering parts they make at Avalanche Engineering.:p Tjose are some sweet looking parts. where did you guys get your parts from? Or did you fab them?

Ritch

Originally posted by nwmud
Winch bumpers, trees and z-links...
Most of these have nothing to do with steering.
What is the best set up with an SOA? I was looking at the steering parts they make at Avalanche Engineering.:p Tjose are some sweet looking parts. where did you guys get your parts from? Or did you fab them?

Ritch

?? Are we on a steering topic?

Z-Link is a steering component.... :)

I just did a Z-Link and called it good for now. If I ever bend this one (Don't think I will with only 33" tires) I'll go to high crossover

Originally posted by nwmud
Winch bumpers, trees and z-links...
Most of these have nothing to do with steering.
What is the best set up with an SOA? I was looking at the steering parts they make at Avalanche Engineering.:p Tjose are some sweet looking parts. where did you guys get your parts from? Or did you fab them?

Ritch

How soon are you needing a setup? I'm still working on developing Scout II high steering arms, I'm starting on the 2nd revision this weekend. My parts will be cheaper than Avalanche. If you want standard high steer arms, I can make those too, they sell for $75 each. The Scout II arms will be a little bit more, they are quite a bit more work to make.

Ben,
Thanks for your interest, but I will most likely fab my own parts (with a little help from my friends). Just like the look and style of many of the parts I have seen. Besides, my truck has too many questions marks at this point. I know the front will be SOA, but the rear??? SOA, 3-link 1/4 elip, maybe blocks :rolleyes:
I just don't know yet. I know blocks kill! I would never do that. The steering linkage is still a long ways away. Many other things to do first. I am waiting to get my springs (full size Bronco rear springs for the front)(3/4 Ford Van for the Rear, maybe).
Ritch

Come on Pat! Your supposed to use your rear stear to correct your bump stear in the front:flipoff2: Damn NEWBIE:D

What is the best set up with an SOA? I was looking at the steering parts they make at Avalanche Engineering.:p Tjose are some sweet looking parts. where did you guys get your parts from? Or did you fab them?

Ritch

I had Avalanche make my Z-link, with the big heim joints and all. I used to live about 15 minutes from the shop, and I wheeled with those guys for the last 4 years, so they have made most of the stuff on my truck that needed replaced... drag link, driveshafts, when I am ready they will do my shock hoops and rocker protectors, I think.

They are good guys, if you don't have a connection with them they can get a little expensive at times, but I would probably pay full price for most of their stuff if they wanted me to.

Aubrey

Originally posted by Hooper
If someone could make a Z-link that ran 90 degree angles, wouldn't that reduce bump steer to that of a high cross over steering arrangement? .....

No, it wouldn't work. The problem is that your steering knuckle is lower than your pitman arm - That is the cause of the bumpsteer, not the Draglink.

So, let's say that the D-link connects to your steering knuckle 6" lower than where it attaches to the pitman arm (standard d-links are roughly 42" long). If you draw a line from those points on the pitman arm and steering knuckle your mesurement is actually around 42.5-43" long.

So - if your alxe hits a bump and comes up 3" (and you are holding your steering wheel perfectly still) then the draglink will force the knuckle to the passenger side 1/2" - which is bumpsteer.

Likewise, if you jump the rig and the axle drops 6" down it'll pull the knuckle to the passenger side - and cause bumpsteer.

Clear as mud? Should I draw a picture?

Originally posted by Hooper


Could very well be :D I've learned to live with it.



Take your front shocks off and drive over some speed bumps at about 15 mph without holding your steering wheel. You'll notice it shake left to right - thats bumpsteer. I hate to say it but I've learned to live with it as well - but in a couple Snoopy is going to be running on Full-width axles and I've got some of those *neato* arms for the flat top knuckles.

Originally posted by Shadow man
Come on Pat! Your supposed to use your rear stear to correct your bump stear in the front:flipoff2: Damn NEWBIE:D

I would, but I don't have any bump steer. Mine was a hypothetical question, just trying to handle the physics of it all. :D

It seems to me, that a high cross over is the same thing as a Z-link, just shaped differently. <g> Or, rather, it is a 90 degree Z-link, minus one of the Z legs. So, a Z link with 90 degree angles should have no more bump steer than high cross over steering.

Bump steer occurs because the distance from the pitman arm to knuckle changes as the knuckle drops. The closer to horizontal the connection between knuckle and pitman arm is, the less bump steer occurs, because the angle is minimized, and the hypotenuse increases minimally. But, if the hypotenuse on the triangle pitman arm, knuckle, axle plane is already great, for even small changes in angle, the hypotenuse (length of pitman to knuckle connection, grows dramatically. But, since the Z-link (with 90 degree bends) is parallel to the axle, the growth of the hypotenuse is limited to what you would see with high crossover.

It makes sense to me, but not to anyone else.

But, it doesn't make much difference, to me, either. I have not noticed bump steer to be any problem at all.

That being said, I will still go to high crossover, just to get my tie rod up out of the way.

Someone draw it all out on autocad so I can look at it :)

You can put 953 angles of any degree that you want to in there and call it a pretzel link. It don't make any difference. What does make a difference is the vertical difference between the height of the draglink/pitman connection to the draglink/knuckle connection. High steer minimizes this vertical distance and therefore minimizes the induced bumpsteer when the suspensions goes through its cycle.

Originally posted by Ben W


How soon are you needing a setup? I'm still working on developing Scout II high steering arms, I'm starting on the 2nd revision this weekend. ....

What style are you using? Bolt-on (like SpiderTrax) or casting a new peice?

Are you talking about these arms?http://www.avalancheengr.com/parts/steering/imga0090.jpg

If so, we already sell them for $135 per set (both sides)

Originally posted by Snoopy


What style are you using? Bolt-on (like SpiderTrax) or casting a new peice?

Are you talking about these arms?http://www.avalancheengr.com/parts/steering/imga0090.jpg

If so, we already sell them for $135 per set (both sides)

They are bolt on. They are tapered to accept TRE's and they are angle cut so the TRE has less static angle. How do you sell the ones you pictured for $135 a pair when avalanche lists them at $98 each?

http://www.avalancheengr.com/parts/steering/high_steer_dana44_heim.htm

Originally posted by Snoopy


What style are you using? Bolt-on (like SpiderTrax) or casting a new peice?

Are you talking about these arms?http://www.avalancheengr.com/parts/steering/imga0090.jpg

If so, we already sell them for $135 per set (both sides)


Hmm, thats a nice looking arm........


BUT:

Looks like a SII pattern arm, but WHY would anyone need a draglink mount on the drivers side?!?! Is it for RHD scouts??:D

Why so many holes??? Two tierods??, or rock-ram??

Also, at least with my SO, you put a 1" spacer under there (to clear the springs), and you put the tierod right into the tire :eek:

hence why Benny is on prot. #2 :D



also, nice discount on the arms....

Originally posted by RustoleumWhite


Looks like a SII pattern arm, but WHY would anyone need a draglink mount on the drivers side?!?! Is it for RHD scouts??:D

Why so many holes??? ...Also, at least with my SO, you put a 1" spacer under there (to clear the springs)...


Driver side arm is for moving not only the draglink, but the tei-rod as well (you need one arm per side). Why so many holes? Draglink, tie-rod, possible rock ram or different locations for D-link & Tie rod (to change the amount of turning for a given box). Spacers are easy to make and bolt on.

These are the Avalanche arms. I can't sell them. The arms I have machined for me are $65-70ish per side. Spacers are like $50.

Originally posted by Snoopy


These are the Avalanche arms. I can't sell them. The arms I have machined for me are $65-70ish per side. Spacers are like $50.

You sure had me confused.

I read, Are you talking about these arms? to mean THESE ARMS.. the ones pictured.

I thought you were against the factory-style bolt-on steering arms and were in favor of welding? Why the change of heart?

Can you get longer studs to go with the spacers? Mark's been trying to track some down for a while..

Originally posted by Snoopy


Driver side arm is for moving not only the draglink, but the tei-rod as well (you need one arm per side). Why so many holes? Draglink, tie-rod, possible rock ram or different locations for D-link & Tie rod (to change the amount of turning for a given box). Spacers are easy to make and bolt on.

These are the Avalanche arms. I can't sell them. The arms I have machined for me are $65-70ish per side. Spacers are like $50.

Then why did you post a picture of them and say

"Are you talking about these arms? If so, we already sell them for $135 per set (both sides)"

:confused:

Are the arms you sell for $65-$70 angle cut? What are they made out of? Are they tapered for TRE's, or do you use spherical rod ends (heims)? Are they machined to accept standard GM cone washers?

Originally posted by Ben W


Then why did you post a picture of them and say

"Are you talking about these arms? If so, we already sell them for $135 per set (both sides)"

Are the arms you sell for $65-$70 angle cut? What are they made out of? Are they tapered for TRE's, or do you use spherical rod ends (heims)? Are they machined to accept standard GM cone washers?

I was talking about the style - for Flat top knuckles (chevy and IH pickup or T-all. I just assumed you knew what I was thinking ~ my bad.:rasta:

No they aren't angle cut, no need yet. They are 3/4" bar stock, machined, tapered or straight through (for TRE or Hiem) and yes, they will fit standard GM cone washers.

Sorry for making ya
:confused:

Originally posted by Snoopy


Driver side arm is for moving not only the draglink, but the tei-rod as well (you need one arm per side). Why so many holes? Draglink, tie-rod, possible rock ram or different locations for D-link & Tie rod (to change the amount of turning for a given box). Spacers are easy to make and bolt on.

These are the Avalanche arms. I can't sell them. The arms I have machined for me are $65-70ish per side. Spacers are like $50.


*I* KNOW that you need two arms for mounting the tie-rod up a well as the draglink, I was just quetioning "WHY THE DRAGLINK HOLE WAY OUT THERE ON THE DRIVER'S ARM." The drivers side arm only needs to be a nice short one. But if they arn't your's, then you have no answer.


Yes, you where confusing posting Avalanche's arms.


They are 3/4" bar stock, machined,


Only 3/4"?? Is that thick enough?? Stock GM is 1-1/4, as are Ben's, and as it apears Avalanche's. Are they tested yet?? How many people run them?? Just curious, this is the first I have heard of YOU offering arms. Like tommy said, last I heard you were into welding.

As for the spacers, read my post again, with 33 X 12.5 tires, mounted on stock IH hubs, a 1" spacer under an arm like Avalanche's will put the arm and the tie-rod TRE into the tire. Have you tried spacers yet?? Any luck.



-mark

Ben! Do you make the arms for a GM Dana 60, kingpin? Or just the 44's? If so on the 60, whats the details on it? angle cut, thickness, $$... etc.

You know, now that you mention it, they are probibly more than 3/4" - its been about a year since I've personally sold one. You see, 99% of my customers are Scout guys with stock Scout axles (not flat top) - the other 1% are Jeep guys with Scout axles.

Are they tested? Yes, My machinist makes them for me and he's made them for many many years. Last month he went through 14 of them. Have we used spacers - yes, but not very often though.

Oh, and by the way, redmaniac ~ we have those available too. I'm assuming that your talking about this style (yes, this is a D and C part):
http://www.dandcextreme.com/d60arm.jpg

You didn't know about these products? Hehehehe...thats because nobody has ~ I don't talk about most of the products I have available. However, you will see MUCH MUCH more of them. We are currently re-designing our website for ease of use and the implementation of a full secure server. When we have our online store in place it will include a full line of detailed suspension parts that we have custom built for our use as well as everything that 4WheelParts has (just at a good amount less - like WARN HS9500i for $775)

I realize that I've kept quite about this stuff for a long time. Here is a sample of the new site ~ http://www.dandcextreme.com/new/. The only thing you'll see there is part of the bumper area. However, you'll be able to see some of the new areas of the site as well as the customer's rigs area (thinking of adding a 'readers rigs' area as well).

Things are about to get interesting.

Originally posted by redmaniac
Ben! Do you make the arms for a GM Dana 60, kingpin? Or just the 44's? If so on the 60, whats the details on it? angle cut, thickness, $$... etc.

Nope, just 44's right now.

I did thi on Jeep whith Bronco front same as a Scout.

Here is the pic.