So I guess there are questions as to if Soup Bowl and Soup Kitchen are legal, or not. So I figured I'd leave the answer to Del to answer, as I don't know the answer.

We were discussing this in a private staff forum, and here is what was said:

Originally posted by steveh
Seabastard is refering to soup kitchen ... is it legal?

Ahhhhhh..... Good question?

"Soup Bowl" has been around for 20 years. If it were illegal, I think we would have blocked it off long ago...

As for "Soup Kitchen", I never really considered it a big deal. Apparently someone ran over a bush to create it (as I just read in camo's post in the Toyota forum) which I wasn't aware of. It's just a slab of rock now, so there isn't any harm in running it NOW. The question arises as to if it is ethical to drive it knowing that there used to be a bush there in the past, I guess... The first time I drove it, it was just a slab of rock. I dunno.... :confused: :(

A shot of Soup Bowl from 2001 - I don't see a bush where Soup Kitchen is? (to the right of where my rig is) :confused:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/trailreports/rubicon_0701/Image027.jpg

Soup Kitchen:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/trailreports/rubicon_1001/Image028.jpg

A shot from 5/01 - camo is going up Soup Bowl, and Soup Kitchen is to the direct left... No bush...

http://www.pirate4x4.com/trailreports/rubicon_0501/Image010.jpg

Originally posted by steveh
Seabastard is refering to soup kitchen ... is it legal?


:::::::::::::::::::::::
Nice, thanks STEVE, so no I'm a b)(*&)^ hu.........hope you are just joking around?

I just deleted my post on blocking the kitchen, as this thread is already started, THX Lance. Yes I posted your pics, as the subject was brought up, if it needs blocked, I say block it, but Steveh comes in jumping my butt over that thread, and just as I thought, YOU don't see the problem, have never stated it as a problem, so my thinking is, it realy must not be a big deal. If it is, then lets plan to block it at the cleanup, I WILL EVEN BUST MY BUTT TO HELP.
What I don't need is being called a bastard behind my back for my posts on the subject, it's uncalled for. No one walks up to my face and calls me a bastard, wonder why? It's just not done. I would never walk up to anyone and do that..WTF?

Originally posted by SeaBass44
:::::::::::::::::::::::
Nice, thanks STEVE, so no I'm a b)(*&^d hu.........

;) :flipoff2:

Originally posted by steveh


;) :flipoff2:

Fawker:flipoff2: It's ok that you don't like me, hell you don't even know me other then the net and the phone. The times I talked to you, you seemed like a real cool guy;)
Lance I just PAYPLed you $20, wheres my star ya Fat Bastard....:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Lance
A shot from 5/01 - camo is going up Soup Bowl, and Soup Kitchen is to the direct left... No bush...

http://www.pirate4x4.com/trailreports/rubicon_0501/Image010.jpg

I see the branch of a bush in the bottom left of this pic, which is where the kitchen is. One my first trip to the con about a month ago with seabass, I watched someone go up kitchen I thought it was a cool obstical and hate to see it blocked, BUT the right thing to do is the right thing to do:D

Originally posted by rEdNEcKwHeE1eR


I see the branch of a bush in the bottom left of this pic, which is where the kitchen is.

Wrong. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by SeaBass44


Fawker:flipoff2: It's ok that you don't like me, hell you don't even know me other then the net and the phone. The times I talked to you, you seemed like a real cool guy;)
Lance I just PAYPLed you $20, wheres my star ya Fat Bastard....:flipoff2:

Darn! When did I say I did not like you? Ligthen up ya b)(*&d ;) !

I'm getting kinda pissed at ya if that makes ya feel better ....

Here is a little different angle Oct 2001.

the other side

Originally posted by Lance
So I guess there are questions as to if Soup Bowl and Soup Kitchen are legal, or not. So I figured I'd leave the answer to Del to answer, as I don't know the answer.



I do know limits on the width of the trail are not yet determined. It could be 100 ft more or less. Soupbowl and Kitchen will fall within the easement for sure. The loop leading back to the trail might be the killer. It is what, 35 feet off the trail? It does have historical significance if it has been around for 20 years.

Thanks for the picture, cruz...

Here is "Soup Kitchen"

Another more recent shot...
http://myweb.cableone.net/twizum007/Rubicon/images/Rubicon_049.jpg

Jes

Originally posted by Jes
Another more recent shot...
http://myweb.cableone.net/twizum007/Rubicon/images/Rubicon_049.jpg

Jes

Get It Jess! You do some amasing s**t with that XJ:eek:

Originally posted by Rubicrawler


Get It Jess! You do some amasing sh!t with that XJ:eek:

I have driven soupbowl but that's not me. That's afecko of this board, he drove it easily.
Remember, I have the black 2 door...
http://myweb.cableone.net/twizum007/Rubicon/images/Rubicon_148.jpg
:D

Jes

Originally posted by Jes


I have driven soupbowl but that's not me. That's afecko of this board, he drove it easily.
Remember, I have the black 2 door...
http://myweb.cableone.net/twizum007/Rubicon/images/Rubicon_148.jpg
:D

Jes
gota luv the XJ's only JEEP would make a dissposable JEEP with no frame:flipoff2: use it once and toss it away and get another one:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: where is that pic? did it roll?

Sorry Jes, my bad:( Still a cool pic;)

Originally posted by SeaBass44

gota luv the XJ's only JEEP would make a dissposable JEEP with no frame:flipoff2: use it once and toss it away and get another one:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: where is that pic? did it roll?

LOL, that was me taking a retarded line down by the springs. I layed it over on it's side then got pushed back over and backed out of it. Only got a little scratch in the fender. :flipoff2:

Jes

Originally posted by Jes


LOL, that was me taking a retarded line down by the springs. I layed it over on it's side then got pushed back over and backed out of it. Only got a little scratch in the fender. :flipoff2:

Jes

Now that's flippin HARD CORE! how you drive that without huge dents,,,,,I don't know:confused: You must be a great wheelMan;)

Originally posted by SeaBass44


Now that's HARD CORE! how you drive that without huge dents,,,,,I don't know:confused: You must be a great wheelMan;)

Not hard core at all, but thanks. :flipoff2: :D

Jes

Originally posted by Jes


Not hard core at all, but thanks. :flipoff2: :D

Jes
Yes it is, with how low and stock looking that rig is, I think you are a bada** that is modest:emb4: ;)

Originally posted by Lance
Apparently someone ran over a bush to create it (as I just read in camo's post in the Toyota forum) which I wasn't aware of.

Not to mention that "someone" ran over a Jeep trying to get up it last fall. ;):laughing:

Originally posted by SeaBass44

Yes it is, with how low and stock looking that rig is, I think you are a badass that is modest:emb4: ;)

aww, Jes, you and Fecko have a fan club, how cute :flipoff2:

Disposable, now that's funny. Someone tell andy it's time to take his to the recycler.

SeanP

Originally posted by SeanP


aww, Jes, you and Fecko have a fan club, how cute :flipoff2:

Disposable, now that's funny. Someone tell andy it's time to take his to the recycler.

SeanP :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Judging from the pics that I posted and Jes's newer one. I would say the bushes are getting pushed back, but that happens all along the trail. They try to grow back in the road, and traffic pushes them back. Just look at Cadillac Hill.

Originally posted by Lance
Thanks for the picture, cruz...

Here is "Soup Kitchen"

Looks like the bush might have been moved over *kinda*

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=1829230

I haven't seen foliage on that for a few years. My fat turd made it up for the first time in July. If it is a problem we will stay off of it.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=1732851

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=1732855

IMHO, Soup Kitchen is a mistake. Vegetation was destroyed in the creation of the kitchen. There have been a few threads going back a while, that discussed this, and showed the destruction. Looks like some of the threads are now gone, found this one but there were more obvious pics somewhere of the destruction...

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6140&highlight=soup+kitchen

Used to be you could drive past Soup Bowl without hardly noticing it. Now the area looks like a bomb went off. :(


The big boulder at the left/bottom of the bowl does a good job of preventing leftward expansion, perhaps something similar could be done on the right side.

compare this picture, before the Soup Kitchen expansion:

To this picture, after Soup Kitchen became reality:

Notice the absence of vegetation, the presence of auto fluids and the scraped up granite around that horn-shaped outcropping?

.

Yep.... IMHO, Soup Kitchen is evidence of unauthorized trail expansion. No two ways around it, no matter how cool the pictures look.

Question is, does driving on it NOW (no vegetation left) hurt anything? Assume you stay ON the rock, not hurting the bushes to the right ( :flipoff: if you are hitting those bushes even a little ).

My personal judgement is to stay outta the Kitchen. Others have decided differently, citing a width-of-right-of-way rule or historic use. This is PUBLIC LAND. If some jackass mows a new bypass one weekend, and some other jackasses repeat it the next weekend, isn't it still an illegal bypass?

Me, I'll drive on by, quietly thinking that absence of timely enforcement does not necessarily justify future repetition....

Randii

Originally posted by randii
Yep.... IMHO, Soup Kitchen is evidence of unauthorized trail expansion. No two ways around it, no matter how cool the pictures look.

Question is, does driving on it NOW (no vegetation left) hurt anything? Assume you stay ON the rock, not hurting the bushes to the right ( :flipoff: if you are hitting those bushes even a little ).

My personal judgement is to stay outta the Kitchen. Others have decided differently, citing a width-of-right-of-way rule or historic use. This is PUBLIC LAND. If some jackass mows a new bypass one weekend, and some other jackasses repeat it the next weekend, isn't it still an illegal bypass?

Me, I'll drive on by, quietly thinking that absence of timely enforcement does not necessarily justify future repetition....

Randii

What about the slabs at Little Sluice that not too long ago had vegitation that is no longer there? Should those be bypassed?

We did Soup Kitchen because we thought it was okay. I think that is why you still see people attempting it. There is nothing stating otherwise and the face hardly looks at something that jumps out at you and screams "do not enter".

What about the trees that were cut down at Gatekeeper? No big deal now, cuz the high line is more fun and so many people do it right?

And I say we reopen the original trail after the granite bowl, through the marshy area. Boggin was fun in the spring, and everybody went that way anyway.

:rolleyes:

That's part of the problem, is that a new line gets cut. Then more and more people do it. Then it "appears" to be a legit line, so even more people start doing it. None of that makes it right.

This trail has so much history and so many bypasses and alternate routes (some good, some bad) that at this point things like the "oriiginal trail" and how something got that way don't matter much any more. The trail is involved in a rebirth of sorts and if we are lucky the "designated trail" will be something we can all enjoy and live with. The soups are fun and if they stay part of the trail, great. If not I'll live with it.

Originally posted by chartdog
This trail has so much history and so many bypasses and alternate routes (some good, some bad) that at this point things like the "oriiginal trail" and how something got that way don't matter much any more. The trail is involved in a rebirth of sorts and if we are lucky the "designated trail" will be something we can all enjoy and live with. The soups are fun and if they stay part of the trail, great. If not I'll live with it.

I don't think you fully understand. you won't just "live with it" these things can get the trail closed. Then you "live without the entire trail" understand what we are talking about now? I don't see why it's so bad...they could cut a 100yard path through the forest, and there would be no harm, ever heard of hwys:D But on these trails just one bush is not allowed to be removred/destroyed ect, so we have to abid by the rules or lose the trail. I don't want to start building a street rod this soon, I think I would enjoy another 20 years or more of 4x4ing.;)

If you compare this pic of a pic to the ones previously posted you can clearly see that the kitchen used to be completely covered in bushes, as well as the bowl used to have more vegitation around it. It's from 1995 and seaass should like the pic:

Soup Bowl is a good example, but the problem is bigger than just there, the bottom of the Sluice or even a 100' corrider. The problem is that all over the trail people are making their own way. "I have a 4x4 I can go anywhere" seems to be a prevailing attitude. "That looks like fun to climb" is another.

It's hard to argue that Soup Bowl should be closed. It's better to preserve what's left. For instance... sometime in the last few years (sorry no pictures) the bushes at the top of the LS bypass (where we just poured concrete) have all been mowed over. Rocks have moved. Now there's new campsites up above, more trash and TP. There's places like that all over the trail.

The Old Sluice - all the bushes to the left of the big rock are gone.
Just before Soup Bowl the route veers to the right of the tree where there used to be bushes.
Or my favorite... the cut standing trees at Buck and Spider for firewood...

Let's just turn the whole place into some Prairie City looking wasteland. :rolleyes::mad:

Soup Bowl isn't the problem. It's getting people to leave what's there, there. Tread Lightly. I'll bet 99% of the users of PBB couldn't tell you what the tenants of Tread Lightly are.

I'd like to see more time keeping the bushes we have than arguing about where the others went.

Paul

Originally posted by SeaBass44


I don't think you fully understand. you won't just "live with it" these things can get the trail closed. Then you "live without the entire trail" understand what we are talking about now? I don't see why it's so bad...they could cut a 100yard path through the forest, and there would be no harm, ever heard of hwys:D But on these trails just one bush is not allowed to be removred/destroyed ect, so we have to abid by the rules or lose the trail. I don't want to start building a street rod this soon, I think I would enjoy another 20 years or more of 4x4ing.;)

I think you misunderstood my post because I think we are on the same page here. I can "live with" obeying the rules and "live with" changes and bypass closures that will allow the basic trail to remain open. Accepting the reality of things was what my post was imtended to discuss.:D

Originally posted by chartdog


I think you misunderstood my post because I think we are on the same page here. I can "live with" obeying the rules and "live with" changes and bypass closures that will allow the basic trail to remain open. Accepting the reality of things was what my post was imtended to discuss.:D

Cool, I missunderstood;) you do "get it":) :) :)

What about the slabs at Little Sluice that not too long ago had vegitation that is no longer there? Should those be bypassed?
This is a clear distinction *TO ME*-- if I knew there was vegetation somewhere and that it is no longer there, I ask after it, and determine whether it was removed in consultation with the land owners, managers, and users (for Rubicon, that's handled nicely by FOTR and the Rubicon Oversight Committee [ROC]), and until I find out it is an 'approved' route, I avoid it.

Johny Cochran might say "If ya don't KNOW, don't GO," which is pretty jingoistic, but a good point nonetheless. Our trails are being overrun by new folks who aren't aware of the main route, let alone which side routes are legal.

Overly conservative? Perhaps, but I'd rather *not* wheel a route than risk being off-trail. Too many folks are watching too closely, these days.... why provide ammo to be used against my hobby? Me, I'd rather do some research up front and be sure.

We did Soup Kitchen because we thought it was okay. I think that is why you still see people attempting it. There is nothing stating otherwise and the face hardly looks at something that jumps out at you and screams "do not enter".
Yup. I don't fault you for this (though enforcement might see it differently -- failing to know the laws does not often provide avoidance for penalty from breaking them). I'm damn unhappy with folks who know better, but still drive there, but that's a side issue... the main issue is this: folks in our hobby need to get much better at getting information out about what is an approved route and what is not. FOTR has been helping with this in cooperation with the ROC, so progress is being made, but we need to do even better....

Randii

Originally posted by chartdog
This trail has so much history and so many bypasses and alternate routes (some good, some bad) that at this point things like the "oriiginal trail" and how something got that way don't matter much any more. The trail is involved in a rebirth of sorts and if we are lucky the "designated trail" will be something we can all enjoy and live with. The soups are fun and if they stay part of the trail, great. If not I'll live with it.

I sure do agree.... the route *HAS* changed and not even the old timers can tell you where it was for its whole route. The 'DESIGNATED TRAIL' (great choice of words!) is what we need to all get behind... FOTR is working for all of us on it.

Great post, Chartdog -- I can't agree more with you!

Randii

Originally posted by nasvik
....It's hard to argue that Soup Bowl should be closed. It's better to preserve what's left.
Amen. Focus on the big picture....

Soup Bowl isn't the problem. It's getting people to leave what's there, there.
Amen, again.

If we can't communicate this within our hobby, we're toast. :(

Randii (who will try more to focus on saving the bushes that have not been run over)

Ok Randii, so you're saying that Soup Bowl, Soup Kitchen, Toyota Rock (Sluice bailout) the left line at Gatekeeper, the alternate route above Winter Camp, The easy route around the tree 100 yards before soup bowl, etc. are all illegal bypasses that should not be used? Is that what is being implied? Nobody has outright said it, so somebody (preferrably Del) SAY IT, and be done with it. :rolleyes:

The problem is "you can't have your cake and eat it too"
Guys with the built rigs like how hard the trail is and how it keeps getting harder, but the people that have been running the trail in moderate rigs need the trail to be passable.

Is the answer, live with the existing bypasses or close them and maintain the trail better? Or something in between?

Originally posted by Lance
Ok Randii, so you're saying....
I said there is a clear distinction *TO ME*-- that I would ask about uncertain areas, and if unsure, would 'wheel to avoid them.

I'm saying if YOU know that a place is NOT on-trail, don't run it. Like it or not, Lance, many people look to you as an example. Consider this as well.

Further, I'm suggesting generally that if others are uncertain, they should avoid. Better safe, than sorry, until we KNOW where the designated trail lies. "If ya don't KNOW, don't GO."

I also proceeded to offer almost a blanket exemption to new folks who don't know where the trail is (even as I noted that enforcement may not see it that way). IMHO, our largest challenge is educating the new folks -- the arguments between the old folks are non-trivial, but all seem to get sorted out if we can get them in a room and remind them that we're all pushing for the same general goal: continued access to the Rubicon Trail.

Randii

Even better yet go to the ROC meetings in the field and BE A PART of the discussion. IF there are no users there, saying this bypass is used because......well, 4 feet of water stands in the trail in March......well guess what?? Bypasses will be closed. Some bypasses are going to be acceptable to the ROC.

I was part of the discussion last week and I for one am glad I was there to point out some "user" issues on the Wentworth trail. I do not have a problem speaking my mind to the ROC. They can take it as it is, or leave it behind, but I was there to speak up.

Scott

Originally posted by Lance
Ok Randii, so you're saying that Soup Bowl, Soup Kitchen, Toyota Rock (Sluice bailout) the left line at Gatekeeper, the alternate route above Winter Camp, The easy route around the tree 100 yards before soup bowl, etc. are all illegal bypasses that should not be used? Is that what is being implied? Nobody has outright said it, so somebody (preferrably Del) SAY IT, and be done with it. :rolleyes:

Lance, these things have not been discussed by the ROC yet. Gatekeeper is the only one, and that was last Thursday. The Kiosk is in the works too.

Thanks for taking the time to go to the meeting, Scott! :cool:

Randii

I'm sure lots of bushes were removed when the original *road* was laid out to rubicon springs... does that mean we should stay off the whole trail then too?

What's done is done, take what WE have now and make it work for the long term.

I'm anxious to see the results of the property survey (since that's what I do for a living...) Personally I'd like to see: A 40? foot wide right of way established for the trail itself and maintain/re-route the trail within that. Of course resonable boundaries will have to be created for areas like spider and buck camping areas.

P.S. Scott did you calculate that 44.15 miles with your rikidy ol landcruzah speedo? :flipoff2: we're probably neighbors and don't even know it... :D

That's a poor analogy. This thread is not about the cutting of the original *road*, it's about an unnecessary bypass that's popular with the built rigs (as opposed to the old Gatekeeper bypass that was popular with lesser rigs).
What's done is NOT what's done. If it's illegal, stop using it: PERIOD.

Originally posted by Danger Ranger
I'm sure lots of bushes were removed when the original *road* was laid out to rubicon springs... does that mean we should stay off the whole trail then too?

What's done is done, take what WE have now and make it work for the long term.

I'm anxious to see the results of the property survey (since that's what I do for a living...) Personally I'd like to see: A 40? foot wide right of way established for the trail itself and maintain/re-route the trail within that. Of course resonable boundaries will have to be created for areas like spider and buck camping areas.

P.S. Scott did you calculate that 44.15 miles with your rikidy ol landcruzah speedo? :flipoff2: we're probably neighbors and don't even know it... :D

It is really kind of enlightening now that I am so involved in this ROC project. There are SO many places the trail is 40-50 feet from where it was 20-40 years ago. A tree falls in the winter, a bypass was created around it and the traill is in a different place. The funny thing is in my 10 plus years up there, I did not really notice how much of that there is. Just yesterday on Cadillac I was noticing LOTS of it. The land just reclaims the old trail pretty easy. Only knowledge from people like Mark Smith, Jack Sweeny and Steve Morris comfirm those spots/detours. A right of way could be designated wider, and if we maintain a narrow well marked trail within that right of way.........things like soup bowl will fall inside it. Just remember, authorities can and will ALWAYS be able to cite on resource damage. If you get caught driving over bushes, be prepared to face it. Right of way or no.

ps TOPO program and I cheated and drew the line over Darling Ridge:p

Originally posted by cruzila


It is really kind of enlightening now that I am so involved in this ROC project. There are SO many places the trail is 40-50 feet from where it was 20-40 years ago. A tree falls in the winter, a bypass was created around it and the traill is in a different place. The funny thing is in my 10 plus years up there, I did not really notice how much of that there is. Just yesterday on Cadillac I was noticing LOTS of it. The land just reclaims the old trail pretty easy. Only knowledge from people like Mark Smith, Jack Sweeny and Steve Morris comfirm those spots/detours. A right of way could be designated wider, and if we maintain a narrow well marked trail within that right of way.........things like soup bowl will fall inside it. Just remember, authorities can and will ALWAYS be able to cite on resource damage. If you get caught driving over bushes, be prepared to face it. Right of way or no.

ps TOPO program and I cheated and drew the line over Darling Ridge:p

So basically the whole trail is a bypass? We better shut it down and lock everything up now!!! lol

thanks for the info scott.

Ps i'm on bear creek, if i went up Darling ridge instead of going a-r-o-u-n-d to G town I bet i'd cut out atleast a few miles :p

We can't repair whats already ruined. Just try and make the future right.

The rigs are getting so built that they are going to make the biggest obsticles feel like speed bumps one day.. eventually you'll have to go somewhere else to get your fix with the fat meats.. cause you cant tear through brush to create a new obstacle anymore.

The problem with the trail not being tough enough for 38's and a 150:1 crawl ratio has a solution......run with open diffs turning 31" tires.


Show us your driving skills!


:p

I see no harm in keeping the Soup Bowl open.
It is a historic little part of the trail that people think about and anticipate long before they get to the Rubicon. Many people that travel great distances to enjoy the trail and look forward to places like the Soup Bowl, would find it a great disappointment to see it cordoned off.
Closing the Soup Bowl might make a hand full of people feel better, but would be a senseless shame to thousands of others.

What are your thoughts on the "Soup Kitchen"?

Soup Bowl or "Soup Kitchen" which are in the same general area, are historic places where many recreationist seek to drive their vehicles through every year. They are landmark rock formations which suffer little to the thousands of vehicles that pass through them. However, even though it is very minimal, there is some vehicle impact on the area. IMO, it is the trade off to keep the majority of four wheelers, ATV and mountainbike recreationist happy.
If the established, somewhat impact resistant, challenging areas are cordoned off on the Rubicon, will people look for less impact resistant illegal substitutes?
Though not in favor of flagrant, illegal bypasses which destroy tender vegetation, I think some difficult established routs over granite rock are OK, if not probably nesessary.

John, I agree with you on Soup Bowl, but disagree with Soup Kitchen. Historic is a relative thing... the Bowl is about ten years old, and the Kitchen is 2-3... and still growing. If the Kitchen can be marked and stabilized so that users know (duh?) not to drive off the granite, I think it can continue to carry recreational loads. Certainly restoring it would be difficult -- tough to replant (the dirt is gone!) and tough to inform/enforce (folks now look forward to it).

It is all a balance... the fact that the user community is even having this dialogue shows that we're on the right path, IMHO.

Though not in favor of flagrant, illegal bypasses which destroy tender vegetation, I think some difficult established routes over granite rock are OK, if not probably necessary.
I'm with you, generally... I think most mechanized users are. Where you run into confusion/misunderstanding/arguments is the interpretive words, italicized above...

Randii

Ditto Randii.

Is it just a funny angle or is this dude way into the bushes off the side of Soup Bowl??

one more...

I was thinking the same:confused:

I have been in that same position there. It happened for me because I was trying to line up my rear end far over to the left side before backing up and getting my front end to the right. I don't believe that he was going to try to proceed forward after looking back on what I did (I am in a Toyota as well). I did not make it trying what I just described, but I did not run over any bushes either. I would not jump to conclusions over that pic.

Edit: Well after looking at the first pic again, I have to say my front end was not that far to the left, but he does not look like he is on the bushes yet either.

soup bowl is the funnest obstacle.I hope they dont take it away.

cbassett. Was that from the cleanup 2 weeks ago? I think i saw that and he did get considerably into the bushes...I was pretty tired and dont remember it well, I was trying to get DOWN the trail and there was a big traffic jam.

Yeah. Brandon put those pics up in another thread on the BB.

might not be the best thread to post these in but going through old pics and I have some of the soup bowl.

1997
http://rcrc4x4.com/gallery/albums/miscrubicon/brandon.thumb.gif

not sure?
http://rcrc4x4.com/gallery/albums/miscrubicon/soupbowl.jpg

80's (PRE bowl/kitchen)
http://rcrc4x4.com/gallery/albums/tonyrubicon/img20.jpg

holy 2 year bump, Batman. :flipoff2:

Get back to work man

holy 2 year bump, Batman. :flipoff2:

Get back to work man


work? What's that??

I tell you the truth here, as of summer 2005 the guys pushing the edges (read into the bushes at the edge) of the bowl/kitchen/ledge, whatever, are going to get it shut off and closed. It is even worse, above it where it is flat. Do what you can to keep it to a minimum up there now.

Scott

I tell you the truth here, as of summer 2005 the guys pushing the edges (read into the bushes at the edge) of the bowl/kitchen/ledge, whatever, are going to get it shut off and closed. It is even worse, above it where it is flat. Do what you can to keep it to a minimum up there now.

Scott

I wonder how much of it is from people walking on the bushes rather than people driving on the bushes?

I wonder how much of it is from people walking on the bushes rather than people driving on the bushes?
Interesting question, but in the end, I don't think that the answer matters.

Resource damage is ongoing as Soup-Room widens. It is an ongoing area of concern for the management agencies. Therefore, we need to stop widening it.

Randii

Interesting question, but in the end, I don't think that the answer matters.

Resource damage is ongoing as Soup-Room widens. It is an ongoing area of concern for the management agencies. Therefore, we need to stop widening it.

Randii

Hey, I don't disagee with that.
Tread lightly wheather a foot or driving. ;)

Tread Lightly!

Travel and recreate with minimum impact
Respect the environment and the rights of others
Educate yourself; plan and prepare before you go
Allow for future use of the outdoors; leave it better than you found it
Discover the rewards of responsible recreation


By understanding and practicing proper four-wheeling techniques you will
ultimately be reducing the impact you might otherwise have on the environment.


The Fundamentals:
• Travel only in areas that are open to your type of recreation.
• Travel only on routes designated for motorized use.
• Don’t create new routes or expand existing trails.
• Avoid sensitive areas.
• Cross streams only at fords where the road or trail intersects the stream.
TRAVEL AND RECREATE WITH MINIMUM IMPACT



unfortunately... you don't see enough of this going on... too many people standing around with beers in their hands... instead of picking up empty beer cans!

FG

Tread Lightly!

ortunately... you don't see enough of this going on... too many people standing around with beers in their hands... instead of picking up empty beer cans!

FG

hey a beer in the hand, may have just been picked up dumb.

I have a pic from 1994-95ish of soupbowl and it is covered in shrubery...if you didn't know it was there you would have driven by it. I don't believe this means it should be closed or other similar areas be closed. I look at it like this...the trail is what it is right now. I don't want to go back in time and try to make it something it isn't. As a general rule in most anything I disagree with any attempt to "Go back to the good ole days." In most cases its idealistic or unnecessary.

I would be for the FS/County saying okay...it is what it is and from now on we will close all new alternate routes. I'd also like to see them begin to mitigate the existing problem areas. If an area is so bad that mitigation attemps simply can't resolve the issue, then I would even work with them to move a portion of the trail to a more suitable area...like the move away from Pleasant Lake But until the FS/county take responsiblity for the trail and manage it like they manage a clear cut/logging project or development of a new road, I am not for closing anything.

For the record, I have gone up soup bowl too but I didn't drive on shrubery to do it. It was long gone by then.

Marlon

I tell you the truth here, as of summer 2005 the guys pushing the edges (read into the bushes at the edge) of the bowl/kitchen/ledge, whatever, are going to get it shut off and closed. It is even worse, above it where it is flat. Do what you can to keep it to a minimum up there now.

Scott

This is still looming. Even worse now and closer than ever.

Be responsible.

This is still looming. Even worse now and closer than ever.

Be responsible.

You're on a roll today with old threads:D

Brings back memories:p

Fine.....

If we are going to start bringing back old threads....I want immunity in regards to my intentions.:D

I was doing it to bring those that are new and not a part of the history "up to speed".

The last two threads you brought back were on my list. But I got spanked for "clouding the issues".

And yep, the Soup Bowl closure is also looming. This is why the group that manages the Sluice will need to take on Soup Bowl can kitchen tourine as well.

We're ready :D

Complete by-pass from the Slabs to the south side of Spider is a good idea. 5 years open, 5 years closed.

Fine.....

If we are going to start bringing back old threads....I want immunity in regards to my intentions.:D

I was doing it to bring those that are new and not a part of the history "up to speed".

The last two threads you brought back were on my list. But I got spanked for "clouding the issues".

And yep, the Soup Bowl closure is also looming. This is why the group that manages the Sluice will need to take on Soup Bowl can kitchen tourine as well.

We're ready :D

I have been looking for a specific post I made and can not find it.

found plenty of good, still relevant comment though.

You are immune:flipoff2:

Luv ya

You're on a roll today with old threads:D

Brings back memories:p

Sure does!!! I was swimming at Spider yesterday, talk about old memories of camping and family fun....................................

I know the new hot spot, Not Bowl or Kitchen and not Little Sluice. It willl be on the radar soon.

I know the new hot spot, Not Bowl or Kitchen and not Little Sluice. It willl be on the radar soon.
I know a few, too, Mike... what sucks is that people either lack the information or intent to stay on the trail, and are creating new areas of use outside the (admittedly intederminate) trail footprint, which is putting further pressure on the agencies to *CLOSE* Rubicon. :eek:

Randii

<this thread gets bumped with some regularity... here it comes again>
The pictures are well worth the continued bumps, IMHO...

I have worked my priorities and flexible scedule to allow attendance at the Rubicon Oversight Committee meeting for more than five years now, and we've been talking about Soup Bowl at least 2-3 times a year every year in that time. With DOT at the helm now, I think something is finally going to be done...

Here's what I wrote to the County in my comments, FWIW:
Soup Bowl is a valued obstacle to many trail users, but vehicles actively using Soup Bowl can block the main trail. I recommend clearly marking the edges of the trail and engineering a well-defined pull-out/bypass to allow vehicles to pass easily on the south side of the trail.
Expansion of the Soup Bowl obstacle has been a problem, so I recommend clearly marking of the ends of the obstacle and fortifying the edges of the Soup Bowl obstacle and bypass to eliminate off-trail excursion. I recommend that the County clearly instruct the users to stay within these boundaries, and identify a clear consequence of loss of access to this obstacle if they do not comply. Re-evaluate for success in two years. This type of fortification/consequence would fit well within a corridor/BMP management model.

Thanks for all who have participated thus far... the meetings were well-attended, and many trail users were well-represented. That said, there have been VERY limited substantive responses thus far (they have only letters from Panel B, the Water Board, and the Past President of RTF!). You can still let your opinions be know meaningfully, with specific comments on specific trail/alternate/bypass/reroutes by sending them to vickie.sanders at edcgov dot us.

Randii
Randy Burleson
Rubicon Trail User
FOTR Volunteer since the beginning
RTF officer, director, or grant administrator since the beginning

You may be thinking...
Fortifications? :mad3: Really? :confused:
Well, if that's what it takes to keep access, yeah... really. :(

IIRC, the Colorado Rock Hoppers and Preadator Four Wheel Drive adopted Independence Trail, in Colorado, and they had to deal with a section of trail that was threatened by widening (by intent or accident -- it really doesn't matter to agencies). They pioneered low-profile fortifications like this one:
http://www.rockcrawler.com/trailreports/independence02/p42.jpg
...and bigger, more intrusive ones, as well:
http://www.traildamage.com/trails/independence_trail/_walked/entrance_part_4.jpg
I hope Rubicon can use a less-intrusive solution, but in the end, IMHO any of the above pictures are better than closure, which is indeed on the table at Soup Bowl.

Sorry if this is ill-received, but I hope that I've earned my right to comment by attending meetings, volunteering, and 'wheeling...
http://www.4x4wire.com/gallery/trailshots/4x4_Trailshots/On_the_Trails/California/Rubicon/Toyota_Rubicon_2000/con10.jpg
I've prioritized attending both public meetings where this and other bypasses and alternates have been discussed, and I've discussed it here, as well, looking back at the thread.

I know the agencies have heard me... have they heard you?

Randii

Sorry if this is ill-received, but I hope that I've earned my right to comment by attending meetings, volunteering, and 'wheeling...
http://www.4x4wire.com/gallery/trailshots/4x4_Trailshots/On_the_Trails/California/Rubicon/Toyota_Rubicon_2000/con10.jpg
I've prioritized attending both public meetings where this and other bypasses and alternates have been discussed, and I've discussed it here, as well, looking back at the thread.

I know the agencies have heard me... have they heard you?

Randii



OMG Randi,
You really do have a rig? J/K:flipoff2:

OMG Randi, You really do have a rig? J/K:flipoff2:
:chuckle: Judging by the 'turbine' rims, that was from before the Mustang motor, when I also switched to steel rims. :p

Old picture for an old thread! :laughing:

Randii

I suspect it may be a photochop. lol

Really, I do beleive this is a true pic. It failed soon after, never to return, never to move again under its own FORD power.................Randii, get er dun!

As far as Soup, are we ready for handrails?? I saw that No Hands bridge in Auburn has a handrail now.

I say if it takes that to keep it open, do it. Traffic still is an issue here. That needs to be addressed as well.

Scott

There is nothing wrong with a handrail here or there. If it means the trail stays open, so be it.

Dima

There are a lot of hand rails on the trail already, but they all look like rocks and logs. I find it hard to believe myself or most others would condone a metal handrail on the Rubicon.

There are a lot of hand rails on the trail already, but they all look like rocks and logs. I find it hard to believe myself or most others would condone a metal handrail on the Rubicon.

& all the retards drive over them, a rail might prevent this, or if they do drive on the rail, it will be real obvious they are where they don't belong:shaking:

& all the retards drive over them, a rail might prevent this, or if they do drive on the rail, it will be real obvious they are where they don't belong:shaking:

So a metal rail at Soup, Postpile, split past Ellis, entrance to Gatekeeper, etc etc etc????????

No thank you.

So a metal rail at Soup, Postpile, split past Ellis, entrance to Gatekeeper, etc etc etc????????

No thank you.

you think we have a choice in this...?

you think we have a choice in this...?

There is always a choice;)

next we will have reflective signs at all camp grounds, and k-rails blocking bypasses. There has to be a better way.....

you think we have a choice in this...?


Why do you think we don't?

I must have missed something....?

There is always a choice;)
There has to be a better way.....

I believe there is....it's called involvement.

However, because involvement waxes and wanes, we lose the credibility we need to keep our choices.

It sucks. But there it is.

I hope to change that. Hope against hope.

Why do you think we don't?

I must have missed something....?

1 word
GATE KEEPER:(

1 word
GATE KEEPER:(

OOOHHHH!!!

Well, I think a lot has changed since then, AND I know the County has learned a thing or two about "Public Opinion" especially as it applies to the Rubicon.

And as with LS and Soup Bowl, we have a say, but we also have to follow up and protect our access to those obstacles with involvement. Everything comes with a price.

I'm not saying we are totally in the drivers seat, but at the very least we are riding bi***. :D (as it applies to front bench seats in Ford Pick-ups:p ).

Why do you think we don't?

I must have missed something....?

OOOHHHH!!!

Well, I think a lot has changed since then, AND I know the County has learned a thing or two about "Public Opinion" especially as it applies to the Rubicon.

And as with LS and Soup Bowl, we have a say, but we also have to follow up and protect our access to those obstacles with involvement. Everything comes with a price.

I'm not saying we are totally in the drivers seat, but at the very least we are riding bi***. :D (as it applies to front bench seats in Ford Pick-ups:p ).


so you don't think they are just going to blow up lil sluice now?:eek::barf:

My dead body may have to be involved.

I can think of 6 locations at/around gatekeeper that currently have log barriers. All but one of those are for maintaining on trail use and the last serves that purpose but also plays a roll in drainage duties.

I didn't really get involved in the trail until Gatekeeper was blown up. I do believe that most of those barriers were already in place at that time. Had those barriers been made out of steel, they would probably have had no impact on the demise of Gatekeeper. I know of two barriers in place since Spring of 2008 that have worked extreamly well for their intended purpose. If they were steel instead of logs you wouldn't have to think of those I'm refering to (granted one needs maintenance work that I will do in early Spring).

Do I lead the charge? Not by a country mile. Those folks are easily recognized by those that frequent the Rubicon forum. I try and do what I can be it physical labor, materials, education, responsible use, etc. It's an uphill battle but we certainly arn't at the bottom of the hill any more.

As Bebe stated, "involvement waxes and wanes" at times
BUT it never completely goes away; and that's what gives us credibility.

We're on the right track here. BEING THERE counts, Consistent, constructive involvement will make the difference.

That being said, the issues at Gatekeeper (a spring that affects the trail and the widening of the trail) are somewhat different from those at Soup (Safety, trail blockage, and a widening trail), and at LS (spills and sanitation). Every spot will have its own BMP. Our job is to consistently be sure we try the least invasive BMP first, and to make sure the final choice is the least invasive choice that works.

edit: I don't like the railings either, but if that's what it comes to, it's better than closure.

I suspect it may be a photochop. lol
Really, I do beleive this is a true pic. It failed soon after, never to return, never to move again under its own FORD power...
Hmmm... I rode up the hill in Marlon's rig under Ford power to rescue your frozen butt, I believe that was Chevy power that let you down? :p As for our non-borrowed vehicles, wanna race on who gets under power quicker, your Chubby-powered Cruiser or my Ferd-powered Amigo! :flipoff2:

However we manage Soup Bowl, it is pretty clear that some form of limiter is necessary. I really like Robert's suggestion of using logs... I bet if we anchored those down somehow, they'd hold up pretty well. The Colorado guys used steel railings because there was a scarcity of sturdy native materials and they knew that users would be driving and nerfing off whatever they put there. I think our creative user group can figure a way to fortify the ends of Soup Bowl such that it doesn't continue to expand... the chief concerns I heard expressed in ROC for Soup Bowl are 1.) expansion, 2.) traffic blockage, 3.) duplication of routes.

Randii

Before you read this, know that my bottom line is "I fight for this land and my country. I respect this land I live on. If bushes become more important than me; then the fight I’m in that I swore to give my life for is for nothing and my government has failed me." With rights come responsibilities, government is not supposed to remove our rights; they’re put in place by us to enforce our responsibilities. Closing a trail or a bypass because a few uneducated individuals go off (what we have defined as) the trail, is an unacceptable means of enforcing responsibilities.

The trail (county road) was originally cut to serve a purpose, to get from point A to point B. It was cut so vehicles of "THE TIME" could transverse it as best as possible.
Fast forward to the point where the trail was no longer "necessary" to use as a county road, PROGRESS cut new roads to get from point A to B. The Rubicon became an "unmaintained" road the counties cared less for. It was still used by local people and became a recreational place to visit. "Recreation" is DEFINED differently by different people. The Rubicon created a new passion for recreationalist and made famous for its surrounding beauty and challenges for vehicles of "THE TIME". As the trail began to erode, people NATURALLY began building new rigs to handle the new challenges provided. People that didn't keep up with progress created their own easy bypasses. People that moved forward with progress looked for more challenges and created their own bypasses. Bypasses were made because unprepared vehicles broke in the trail. No one was concerned with the bushes that were lost by creating bypasses or the rocks that were moved by Nature or man, Man moved all the rocks in the first place to create the road. The Trails condition is a product of Nature and progress. How hypricital is it that this county road is under such fire for its use. It was abandoned and left for dead years ago when it was no longer useful for the majority.
Now that were concerned and responding for the beauty of the bushes, let's not clutter the trail with markers and metal rails, lets educate people to prevent further erosion and since this trail was left for us by us for recreational purposes. Leave all existing routs ALONE, let’s move forward with NEW PROGRESSS, we can fill in holes made by tires but leave rocks moved by nature or past occurrences ALONE. "WE THE PEOPLE" own this country not the government. "WE THE PEOPLE" fought to have this land free from our oppressors and now "WE THE PEOPLE" must fight once again to keep what we own! I don’t want to look at the Rubicon behind a glass window or trail markers that take away from the natural beauty of the land. I don’t want to feel like I’m in a state park where it seems like I’m visiting a museum. I want to use the land as I see fit because I fight for this country to keep it free. I fight for my rights against foreign and domestic enemies. Do bushes and trails have more rights than I do? I’ll respect them, will the government respect me?

Troy,

Amazing....thank you.

Bebe

Well put Troy.

A rather valid argument to say the least. Well put!
In a time when government is becoming more intrusive and expanded, now is the time to make a point. However, it seems we are battleing certain people and their groups who are utilizing the govt as well. (thank God none of them are community organizers from Illinois...:D)

"How hypricital is it that this county road is under such fire for its use. It was abandoned and left for dead years ago when it was no longer useful for the majority."

Unfortunately I think there are adjacent property owners who do not utilize the trail as we do yet covet the trail. Then there is the forest service as well. DOT...aparently it's not an abandon road..? Yet majoritively it has come down to Recreationalist volunteers who are doing the labor and the fighting to keep the trail open. The fact that we are educating people more all the time is to our advantage. Participation is the key. Granted yes we have DOT and some county assistance I do believe Yet, where are those who who are utilizing the county govt. to alter or close the trail?? I have yet to see them on the trail assisting only in meetings and county buildings do they appear...I mean if your so worried about the land and bushes get of your lazy ass help out! We won't bite ya and may even have a Chardoney for you if you get physically taxed....WTF?


2 cents added :)

I have yet to see them on the trail assisting only in meetings and county buildings do they appear...I mean if your so worried about the land and bushes get of your lazy ass help out! We won't bite ya and may even have a Chardoney for you if you get physically taxed....WTF?


2 cents added :)

LOL...excellent observation.:D

No one was concerned with the bushes that were lost by creating bypasses or the rocks that were moved by Nature or man, Man moved all the rocks in the first place to create the road. The Trails condition is a product of Nature and progress. How hypricital is it that this county road is under such fire for its use. It was abandoned and left for dead years ago when it was no longer useful for the majority.

Leave all existing routs ALONE, let’s move forward with NEW PROGRESSS, we can fill in holes made by tires but leave rocks moved by nature or past occurrences ALONE. "WE THE PEOPLE" own this country not the government. "WE THE PEOPLE" fought to have this land free from our oppressors and now "WE THE PEOPLE" must fight once again to keep what we own!

I want to use the land as I see fit because I fight for this country to keep it free. I fight for my rights against foreign and domestic enemies. Do bushes and trails have more rights than I do? I’ll respect them, will the government respect me?

First off Thank You for Your Service!

Second, that is the BEST thing as a whole I have read on this site in over a year! I chopped a little to pick out the parts that stirred my inner being but man you hit the nail so squarely on the head as to drive it home with a single swing!

Extremely Well Said!

A rather valid argument to say the least. Well put!
In a time when government is becoming more intrusive and expanded, now is the time to make a point. However, it seems we are battleing certain people and their groups who are utilizing the govt as well. (thank God none of them are community organizers from Illinois...:D)

I have yet to see them on the trail assisting only in meetings and county buildings do they appear...I mean if your so worried about the land and bushes get of your lazy ass help out! We won't bite ya and may even have a Chardoney for you if you get physically taxed....WTF?


2 cents added :)

Also very well said.

The two different points of the two different posts are the best examples IMHO of our plight.

We are fighting people who have a hard on against us over something that is ours. It may be theirs as well but they are not willing to maintain the other areas in the region they freaquent with the constraints they are trying to impose on us. I have walked many miles in the areas they have and am appalled at the hypocrisy they spew.

Yeah lots of finger pointing but the just of it is "people who want to dictate what others can do without maintianing the same standards on themselves."

Yes Monte and Karen. I am watching you! And I see your hypocrisy for what it is.

Wow, you guys are seriously on a roll today! Thank you all!