I would like to get some ideas on what basic bolt on mods can be done to get the most grunt torque out of my 360.
Previously on my OLDS 455bb I had an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, Holley 600cfm carb, RV cam, and the absolute deal breaking chrome valve covers( :laughing: ).
I went to the Edelbrock website and got a basic idea on whats what parts pieces parts wise ... but am still a bit :confused:

My FSJ is a '76 and I live in AridZona & I don't know the exact smog req's here. I don't know how the req's will be affected considering that I will be running propane(dual fuel after inspection and certs issued). Do I need the EGR set-up or not? Is the stock carb a "spread bore" or something else? It is currently all stock. If I run with the Edelbrock, I can't run with the a spread bore but have to run the square bore, I think. Are the bolt-ons/bolt-ins, such as the manifold, cam, carb, lifters, heads, etc. worth the NIB purchase $$$:question: I want to achieve as much of the low end torque as I can possibly get right from idle. Or would it be more beneficial to start at 1500rpm?

I feel like I am that shtupid pup chasin his tail! :rasta:

PLEASE HAAALP! !

www.froadin.com/index2.html

check out this website, one of the best i have seen on amc engines

SMITROCK ... thanks for the link!! Good wealth of info there. Now I know for certain that the Edelbrock intake is the way to go for that part. And it also helped me with some info for a couple other avenues of thought. THANX AGAIN!

Keep it comin guys!

Ask DRM FOR HELP
Remember, the information from TeamRush and TeamRush.com is copyrighted

Glad to know I can get REAL ANSWERS from REAL PEOPLE and that there are websites like FRODIN (www.frodin.com) to go to.
It is one thing to respond to a post and give your point of view or experiences.....
BUT to come in and immediately go off like a crazy BI@TCH and tell me I am wrong in what I wanna do with MY rig and crap talk my limited knowledge of ENGINES.

OPINIONS are like A$$holes... everybody has one. But it seems like yours has a severe case of hemmoroids! :laughing: :laughing:

Maybe I went off half-cocked here, but you need to grow some tact and understand I was asking for help not a load of crap in my lap. SO have a :) day! Make sure to go to the main board and read the "RULEZ" and "Newbies introduce yourself/checkin" ...

BTW... Welcome to Pirate! :flipoff2:

:question: Anybody else have any ideas for my 360?!?

i am very familiar with team rush, forget the newbie crap and listen
he is one of the few people i will take for gospel
there are several on this board as well
don't take every comment so seriously, thinking isn't your strong suit, he's just bustin on you
think of the name "team rush"
he is a very knowledgeable person

Originally posted by TeamRush
If you aren't planning to do much severe angle wheeling, go with the Holley 4160 vacuum secondary, around 600 or 650 CFM. Larger carbs will kill your low end torque and horsepower, not to mention throttle response.
If you are planning to drive up your neighbors garage roof, go with a Rocherster Quadrajet.
They will run nearly vertical, but are a lot harder to tune than the Holleys.


With propane it dosent matter the angle it will get fuel. Right:question: :D

Tigger,

I'm gonna be doing the same thing with a 360 I just picked up this weekend, and was wondering the same things. Although I'm putting the 360 into a CJ5, eventually. I would say to just keep it simple. My plans are to just bore it .030 over, put on a good manifold, possibly an "RV" cam, and the Holley Pro-jection unit. Simple, reliable, and no stinking computers (except for the fuelie). :flipoff2: Shoot, what are 360's rated at, about 300 torque? That's good enough for me.

That "Froadin" website wasn't enough info for me, I'll keep looking. If I see anything, I'll let you know. I also want to say that I saw a "High Performance AMC engines" book somewhere in a Jeep catalog or something. Keep an eye out for that, and if you buy it, let me know what you find out. :D

Out

You have to ask yourself this when considering propane. Sure, you could just bolt a mixer right to the fawkin thing, but to really get the bennies of liquid petroleum gas, there are some things you want to consider:

1: Propane is over 100 octane (like 108-130 depending on who or how you ask). This means you can get away with quite a bit of compression. Your FSJ is like 8:1. You could piss in it and get it to fire. Higher compression will squeeze more out of LPG. 10 or 11:1 should do nicely....

2: Propane burns clean. Very clean. You will only have to change your oil (use a synthetic you will C Y in a minute) every 12K miles. Once a year oil changes..... No or little carbon fouling in the heads too. BUT, there is a price. Since the exhaust stream is basically hot air, water, and some CO/CO2, there is no lubricity in the exhaust valves. They will burn up faster than in a gas motor. You can run it for a while, but you may be doing heads every 50K or so..... If you do stellite seats and stellite-tipped valves, you will get a lot more miles from your heads.

3: Propane burns hotter. Burns heads quicker (along with #2). Use pistons with deeper top rings in them (gets them away from the heat), the synthetic oils handle the heat better. Also, use head gaskets with high temp fire rings in them..... Also, if you can get a 30 degree angle ground on the valves, you increase the area where the valve seats and increases the thermal area, giving the seat a little more life, but don't sacrifice the stellite tips to do this (steal from Peter to pay Paul).

4: Propane engines SUCK when run as a dual fuel. Knowing now what I just told you in #1, if you compromise the compression to run propane, you are not using the fuel to it's full effect. Like running nitromethane in a fawkin vega. Dual fuel is a compromise, a partial of both, and isn't worth it. Go straight LPG or leave it alone.

5: Propane gas streams are corrosive, so aluminum heads are NOT a good idea with LPG. Stainless exhausts are nice but not needed. stainless valves are good.

Your timing will need to be tweaked (LPG burns differently than gas) and a HOT SPARK is required. The TFI upgrade is a minimum, or run an MSD. Don't run the smog pump or the EGR, just fucks with the propane. Go straight propane.

I spent the last year researching this for my rig, so I saved you 6 months.

Your welcome

themaddhatter

Originally posted by themaddhatter
3: Propane burns hotter. Burns heads quicker (along with #2). Use pistons with deeper top rings in them (gets them away from the heat), the synthetic oils handle the heat better. Also, use head gaskets with high temp fire rings in them..... Also, if you can get a 30 degree angle ground on the valves, you increase the area where the valve seats and increases the thermal area, giving the seat a little more life, but don't sacrifice the stellite tips to do this (steal from Peter to pay Paul).

ok...riddle me this batman...(not trying to be an ass...just really curious! :D )

gasoline = 125000 btu
propane = 74,000 Btu

so how does it burn hotter? or is that not lpg's rate? i dunno...help!! cause im going 100% propane on a 302, so im just trying to figure things out. Thanks!!

Yes, the BTUs are lower, but it burns hotter in the apparent heat. Since there is no unburned hydrocarbons (the same ones that provide lubricity provide quelching effect as well), the apparent heat is higher.

Something that was commonly done on converted rigs was to run some sort of oiler drip in the propane stream. If you are doing a straight propane system, you could run a very small diameter tube (acting like a venturi) that is in turn connected to an oiling can (like a remote res type setup). The vac at the mixer will draw a small amount of oil into the incoming air/propane stream in the motor, and help to quelch and lube up the heads/valves. This is a trial and error thing too, because you don't want a LOT of this going in there.

And, even though it does burn hotter, you probably won't have any huge problems. Sometimes a different heat range spark plug is needed.

Anything can RUN on propane, but this gets into the long term durabilty of the systems. If there is an engine place in your area that builds motors for LPG systems, call or visit them. More often than not they are interested in this too. I had a good discussion with a guy that designed long duration industrial genset motors for GM that ran on propane, so it is just a question of finding the pros out there.

Your 302 is stock? It will run a while. Even if you just pull the heads, slap in a set of ss valves and a FelPro head gasket, and maybe try an oiler type setup, you will run good for many miles.

A REALLY GOOD propane motor can get diesel-like lifespans out of the block, but the valves are what seem to go, and if you accept that you need to slap heads on it every 75, 100, or 125K miles, then no big thing.

The thing to remember here is that you are using a gas motor for something that it wasn't really designed for. There will be some things you can change to recify this obviously. Jasper makes a propane motor. Check out what they do to it, and maybe give them a call. It will be OK man :D

BTW, granola chicks will dig it that your 4by is saving the planet (score some hippie chick pootang) :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Originally posted by smitrock
i am very familiar with team rush, forget the newbie crap and listen
he is one of the few people i will take for gospel
there are several on this board as well
don't take every comment so seriously, thinking isn't your strong suit, he's just bustin on you
think of the name "team rush"
he is a very knowledgeable person

Yep. He stays.

TR - Welcome, and :flipoff2:

lemme run down some numbers of stuff i've collected on AMC aftermarket parts for ya...

first: my plans.

intake, carb, headers, ypipe single exhaust, flowmaster 40, roller cam (255/275, .45"/.45" seat to seat)/lifters/rockers, lightweight pushrods, new valves, ported and polished heads. keep stock bore/stroke and crank/con rods/pistons (rebuilt 15k ago)

the part numbers:

eddie intake #2131 (non-EGR)
eddie 4bbl carb #1406 (600+ cfm, elec choke)
hedman 1 3/4" headers #hed-99240
flowmaster 40 (dunno P#, but everyone will know what you mean)
crower stainless steel roller rockers #73645 3/8" stud, #73646 7/16" stud
crower machined aluminum roller rockers #72845 3/8" stude, #72846 7/16" stud
pushrods #71780 (8.28" i believe, check that P# for accuracy)
custom roller cam (specs above)
comp cam magnum roller rockers #1416-16

some helpful hints i've gathered:

check out crane cams, they have hydraulic rollers for AMCs
chevy SB pushrods will work in AMC v8s
summit racing has harland sharp roller rockers #CSP-4004 for 3/8" studs, #CSP-4004-7 for 7/16" studs
mopar LA and B engine lifters are compatible with AMC v8s
use 2.5" piping. you don't need 3", and 2.5" will fit much better next to the frame rails. if you are running duals, use 2.25"

i dynoed this combo on a simulater and got about 410 hp gross and 450 ft lbs gross. torque was above 400 ft lbs from 1300 rpm to 5300 rpm. max horse was at 5500. that's running 87 octance with 8.25:1 pistons.

of course, all this shiot is gonna cost you about 4 or 5 grand. but that's the price you pay.


BTW, i thought TR's post was funny, if a bit vitriolic ;). he seems to know his shit.

Originally posted by themaddhatter
BTW, granola chicks will dig it that your 4by is saving the planet (score some hippie chick pootang) :laughing::laughing::laughing:

lol...not only that, but im hoping to plumb in a grill for the trail...so i can cook em lunch too!! lol

the 302 is currently not in yet. i just pulled the 4.0 and have to rebuild this one. im deffinately going to get hi comp pistons...possibly domed ones, if i have to...should i leave the heads stock? or have them done too? would there be any SERIOUS benifit by doing that?

:rolleyes:OK, OK, I concede TR knows his stuff, but I don't know him so his response came off kinda high nosed. Other than that I see no reason not believe him as he sounds edjimakated. ;)

RIFFMAN ... we are on the same propane wavelength when it comes to the "extra" goodies to benefit from the conversion. For nights on the trail I am also taking a couple of lanterns for plenty of light for everybody! :D

WILLYPETE ... the 400 + hp and 450 torque ... still smog legal??

I guess I am going to have to tear this 360 down and see what all has been done. From the looks of it right now, it appears that only the IMPCO system was installed. Superman, where are you when I need your X-ray vision!:laughing:

THEMADHATTER ...
Well, here comes a slew of :question:s :question:s :question:s ...
"Propane gas streams are corrosive" - is this before or after combustion, or both?
Aluminum heads are not recommended - i.e. NO Edelbrock stuff? intake manifolds, heads, and the carb?
Edelbrock heads vs Stock-reworked ??
Gas is at 8:1 & Propane is at about 10 or 11:1 - 8:1 is 87 octane? 91 is 'X':1?
Pistons - flat, domed, ??
Use a preoiler to lube the heads & valves - this isn't being done already? I take it that this preoiler is not like the ones used on standard gas motors to oil the motor & bring it to proper psi prior to starting it? And that this is actually like a 2 stroke preoiler?
Stellite valves & seats - If the heads are fully converted, what kind of lifespan?
Stainless valves & exhaust are good - stainless w/stellite tips? stainless headers?
If propane octane varies... is it by manufacturer, time of year, distributor?
Don't run the smog pump or EGR - I don't need these for smog inspection? It doesn't have to pass a visual inspection then I take it? I have to title in AZ and want to go back to CA for the C.A.R.B. placard to prove 50 state smog legal(so if I ever catch flack I can tell somebody to shove it! :D )
Propane motors can get diesel-like life spans - IF I convert fully over to propane ... I am still going to be going thru valves and heads like mad or does the lifespan also resemble diesel?
Ford is running dual fueled cars as well as others with hybrids... how do they pull it off? Especially if they are handing out some pretty good warrantees on them?

Hope you don't mind this quick list! I am going nuts trying to decide which end of the catch 22 stick I wanna end up on. I appreciate EVERYBODY'S help. I know it isn't gonna stop here, so please keep it coming! THANX, TIGGER4X

tigger, that 410/450 is estimated gross, so stats at the wheel will probly be more like 350/380.

smog legal? AHAHAHAHAHAHA *ahem* sorry, had to get that out. nope, sorry, i don't live in a smog state, so that's not a concern ;)

oh yeah: propane

if you want to get optimum compression for LPG (i've heard it's about 11.5:1) you're going to have to either get new pistons or new conrods or both. that's $$$$, especially for AMC v8s. i considered propane, then decided it wasn't really worth it. i'm stickin to gas cuz i can get it just about anywhere. just something to bear in mind.

Originally posted by tigger4x
THEMADHATTER ...
Well, here comes a slew of :question:s :question:s :question:s ...
"Propane gas streams are corrosive" - is this before or after combustion, or both?
The stream is SOMEWHAT corrosive after combustion. This is partly due to the lack of unburned hydrocarbons

Aluminum heads are not recommended - i.e. NO Edelbrock stuff? intake manifolds, heads, and the carb?
Aluminum heads will be find if you run an oiler (will discuss this better in a minute. I don't even know HOW bad it really is. The guy I discussed this with was looking at stationary motors running hundreds of hours nonstop. Somewhat harsher, right? Intakes aren't a problem, since they don't see direct combustion, and they are INTAKES. The gas stream isn't really the problem, it is exhaust that you see these issues, which are MINOR (playing out worst case scenerios here):D

Edelbrock heads vs Stock-reworked ??
Depends on what you are doing. Do you want to rev your jeep up to 6K and go 120 miles an hour? Probably not. Do you want torque or HP? Traditionally stock heads are best for torque, and performance heads increase your HP by increasing air volume. Just clean up the stock heads. Smooth out the casting slag, get stellite seats and stainless valves with stellite seats (place out in CA calles SI valves has an EXCELLENT price on 360 valves ss w/ stellite tips), polish the valve stems (~80% of valve guide wear occurs in the first 2000 miles, due to rough valve stems), get new guides pressed, and run it like you stole it :D

Gas is at 8:1 & Propane is at about 10 or 11:1 - 8:1 is 87 octane? 91 is 'X':1?
I thought that 91 would run a 9.5 or 10:1 before you get knocking in it? Propane CAN run higher, but there are people smarter than me (at this stuff anyway) who feel that is a good range)

Pistons - flat, domed, ??
Whatever gets you 11:1 compression :rolleyes:

Use a preoiler to lube the heads & valves - this isn't being done already? I take it that this preoiler is not like the ones used on standard gas motors to oil the motor & bring it to proper psi prior to starting it? And that this is actually like a 2 stroke preoiler?
No, this is it's own thing. Ok, let's try this. Did you ever have to use vacuums in like Chemistry class? The thing was mounted to the faucet, and when the water passes a small angled port in the housing, the movement of the water PULLS the airstream along with it. So, if the airstream tube was connected to an oil container, it would pull OIL in with it. If you put a ball valve on it, you could control how MUCH oil is brought in with it. We are talking like drops here. Just to keep things cooler and happy. If you build it right, you don't need this. This is more for someone just slapping a mixer on a junkyard gas motor and running it. DON'T send pressurized oil into the mixer. You will hydrolock the motor from ALL THAT OIL. very bad :eek:

Stellite valves & seats - If the heads are fully converted, what kind of lifespan?
I have been told that you would expect double-ish on the span. So, spend the $$$ for that, or $$$ for a second set of heads? It is probably the same cost wise, although the stellite valves are fairly cheap at SI Valves.

Stainless valves & exhaust are good - stainless w/stellite tips? stainless headers?
[COLOR=white]I will refer this one to one of my sources at the end. He likes Jet coated kind of stuff. I am considering stock manifolds (cheap and everywhere)

If propane octane varies... is it by manufacturer, time of year, distributor?
I think that is more a grade/producer thing. Not sure though. That is another reason to keep the compression more modest. If you do get a batch that has a lower octane, the thing will not knock on you

Don't run the smog pump or EGR - I don't need these for smog inspection? It doesn't have to pass a visual inspection then I take it? I have to title in AZ and want to go back to CA for the C.A.R.B. placard to prove 50 state smog legal(so if I ever catch flack I can tell somebody to shove it! :D )
I am not sure how the sniffer shit works. Maine right now has no requirement, but there is code in place for emissions exemption for propane (TITS). Not a sniffer lawyer, nor do I portray one on T.V. :D

Propane motors can get diesel-like life spans - IF I convert fully over to propane ... I am still going to be going thru valves and heads like mad or does the lifespan also resemble diesel?
Ford is running dual fueled cars as well as others with hybrids... how do they pull it off? Especially if they are handing out some pretty good warrantees on them?
Modern dual fuel systems are NOT like the stuff we see. We take a holly carb and put this "thing" on top of it. How efficient is carburation? Not very. Modern dual fuel utilizes computers, fuel injection system, hi-tech alloys and composites: the kinda things that EVERYONE finds in the salvageyard :rolleyes: They design the motor with the hardened valves and seats with optimal valvegrind angles (because this doen't matter with gas), and run lower compression (probably 9:1?) so that the thing runs both systems. They can make whatever they want, so if they want stainless exhaust manifolds, they GET stainless exhaust manifolds. If you build it to the best case of propane, it will last until you are too old to care about it anymore (probably)

Hope you don't mind this quick list!
only took 20 minutes to respond :D

I am going nuts trying to decide which end of the catch 22 stick I wanna end up on. I appreciate EVERYBODY'S help. I know it isn't gonna stop here, so please keep it coming! THANX, TIGGER4X [/B]

I thought I would toss in a few things I have found in the last year of searching online......

http://franzh.home.texas.net/engine.html
-You absolutely HAVE to read this. Get you started out RIGHT

http://juv-club.freeyellow.com/propane.htm
-Discusses propane conversion

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~don_s/alternatefuelslpg.htm#lpg
-Some propane source stuff. Might help, might not

http://www.cdpautomachine.com/ecatalog/amc_jeepengines.html
-Has a built 360 I looked at the specs as a rough template

http://www.wps.com/LPG/LPG-carb-theory.html
-little intro on how a mixer works (yes I know my enemy)

http://www.nzjetboating.com/lpg.html
-Dude in New Zealand discussing thier stuff

http://www.technocarb.com/impco1.htm
-More mixer stuff

http://www.sivalves.com/
-Low cost AMC valves. Might be OK for a 302 (shiat is everwhere though)

http://www.wps.com/LPG/index.html
-good stuff. Gotta dig a little though. Layman's stuff.

Have fun researching this. You are going to have to KNOW all about LPG, since no one will be able to fix your rig when you are done.

Good luck, and keep us informed

themaddhatter aka propaneboy :flipoff2:

PS

Sorry about the colors. After posting I realized it was hard to read and :rainbow:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Dude, I was experimenting :smokin:

themaddhatter

Ask DRM FOR HELP
Remember, the information from TeamRush and TeamRush.com is copyrighted

TR, i'd be interested in what you have to say about my proposed 360. as of yet, nothing has come together (except for disabling all the smog crap and running a bit richer) because my harness keeps catching on fire :mad3:

so far i've only able to find a piecemeal full roller valvetrain, but if it works...

so fire away, if you like

is that liquid hydrogen you're running? or gas? how does the fuel delivery system work? questions questions questions...

WILLYPETE ... thanks for the clarification and your other info. :)

THEMADHATTER ... thanks for all of the :eek:awesome info you have given me so far. So much to take in and assimilate. It looks like its gonna be little steps for a while until I can get the whole puzzle together and can get a really clear picture. If you come across any more... I'll take it!! thanks again.

TEAMRUSH ... Now that I know you have an "abrasive" personality I can better understand where you are coming from. I personally am more receptive when I am talked to... not at. IMHO, most people are like that. Anyway, I appreciate your input as well as well as the others. You seem highly knowledged in these mechanical fields. I am fixed on running what I have planned and would like to find out what I can do with it and go from there. I am now better understanding what I am getting into with running LPG in my engine. I may even end up only running the LPG and leaving more gasoline for the others. I have a 130-140 liter LPG tank and still have room for more. If you have any more information to help me better understand LPG and how to get the "diesel-like lifespan" out of my 360 I am all ears. I would have liked to go with a dual fueled 360 but it sounds like that would be a :mad3::skull: I would like to get away from those problems.

Thanks again to those who have responded. I hope this thread continues and can become a wealth of information so others can possibly benefit from it all. Keith aka TIGGER4X

How does the cost of propane compare to gasoline? How often would you have to have a tank filled?
tigger you prolly ogtta get some thicker skin if ya want to survive around here.

I'll go get some thicker skin ... like Silence of the Lambs and your kitty cat!:laughing:

And you... can have my lunch :barf: ... ya newbie! :laughing: :flipoff2: :laughing:

Have a :) day!

Ask DRM FOR HELP
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Alright TR, it is great to have someone like you on this board. Knowledge from 1st hand experience.....

The info you posted for the 360s is great, but a lot of it seems to me that it would be for the guy who wants his javelin to spank a camero. I want an engine that is going to run at 4K RPM or less, and power a 135:1 crawl 5K lb YJ up and over small import cars at will :D . So let me ask if the engine config I was planning will be adequate, or a steaming pile of monkey spunk :barf:

-Badger or OHIO flat top pistons for a 343. Have a deeper ring for leaded engines, so less heat on the ring. Steel rings (forktruck assembler stated that moly rings don't do well in propane). Any opinions on that? I know, opinions are like a$$holes..... Floating pins with no oiler hole drilled in the top of the rod (how much oil gets on the inside of a piston anyway :rolleyes: ???? Stock rods with the casting slag removed (running 4K RPM or less, would I NEED $6-800 rods???)

Clean the slag in the heads, stellite seats, stainless valves with hardened tips, new guides.... Was interested in the wider seats thing too. Do you just keep the stock valves the way they are and get a seat that is a a thousand or two bigger, or what? A little more detail there will be appreciated big time..... Something I can explain to my engine guy (I am holding his hand on this AMC... They do CHEVY all the time). He is a decent machinist, just stuck in the chevy rut :D

Stock intake, stock exhaust, stock cam (would LPG actually benefit from a different cam than that? The LPG cams I find in Canada seem similar to stock lift and durations. Can just pop for one of those...) TFI ignition (already got it :D ). How much would I really get from an MSD for this app? Would the multiple spark be a benne with the LPG?

Was also planning on the rear oiler and timing oiler mods. Also looking at a kill or an accumulator to kick in at 7 psi (these engines have a history of low oil pressure).

for the cam bearings, how can you be sure they are installed right? Most shops don't know AMC, and that is why the screw it up. Is there a way to check it or to tell them HOW it has to be done, so it goes together right from the start?

For the heated bore technique, how do you keep the block hot? Especially with cut n cool dumping on it the whole time? Is this something my shop should know, or is this a more specialized type operation?

Same thing with getting the block sonically tested... Is that the same thing as a magnaflux, or completely different (I am asking cause I don't know, not to be a dick)...... Is magnaflux not good enough for an AMC? I dunno.

So if you could let me know one way or the other if this thing is going to be decent for my application, or if it is going to grenade and take me and a small asian village out with it, I would like to know. That way, I can steer clear of the villiages :D

themaddhatter

That post has gotta be some kinda record...

:flipoff2: Welcome TR!!!:flipoff2:

*bows to TR*

you da man.

"fire away" meant "heeeelp meeee!" ;)

wow, that was a great post. thanks for the information, i'm going to go meditate on that for a while and rethink my engine build :)

full roller valvetrain just sounds so sexy... but you're right about the torque/vs hp at RPMs.

if i keep stock valvetrain and just get headers, carb, and intake, vs a full build, i'll get only 50 ft lbs less across the entire RPM range and 60 hp less at 4500 rpm (which i'll see maybe once or twice in my entire life)

Originally posted by TeamRush: [/b]If you could have the equivalent of a 400 horsepower engine under the hood, pay about the same for fuel per mile as you do now, weigh about the same as an AMC V-8, be able to run at literally any angle, have the benefits of government tax exemptions, and be able to do everything with your vehicle you do now, would you be willing to learn the new technology?.... [/b]

you bet i would. what kinda engine are you talking about? electric cell type?

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K let me just clear the air right now:

NO I AM NOT BEING CUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am asking you questions, and it is making me remember why I don't LIKE to ask questions online..... I am picking your brain to expand MY knowledge. I have nothing to prove here buddy. I am asking to learn, nothing more.

I digress. So, in your professional opinion, (no, that isn't CUTE:rolleyes: )would I just save myself a tremendous amount of angst and use a 302 ford? At this stage of things, that would not be a difficult thing to change over, and I only would be out a couple bucks. I KNOW the 350 chevy thing is god's gift to motors (it is an excellent motor), but I think that there can be an amount of worth in doing something different. If it is the hands down, end all, greatest thing since slice bread, then, yeah, I guess that is the one to go with...... I already have access to 302 fords and 360 AMCs. My drivetrain (which I already own) can take either with a simple OEM bellhousing choice (got the AMC one now, but hey, no big thing). No fancy AA high priced stuff. So, would the buildup of a 302 be
1: more reliable
2: more easily done by a local shop
3: more cost effective

those are important things. If I dump $3K building a motor that I could do for half that using another brand, and get something BETTER because of it, then yeah, that makes sense. I like the concept of using AMC stuff in an AMC, but I am not going to be hung up on it.

I got a feeling that no one around here will be able to do the heated hone (or at least at a somewhat reasonable price). I don't want to pay for THEIR new system.

For the TFI-esqe upgrade, yeah I am talking about the square coil and the cap out of an F350... I haven't heard about the "advance limiter upgrade and the advance spring upgrade". If you have a link or some way to inform me about that one, I would appreciate it. I can definately see the point in the MSD.

Sorry about the flash vs slag thing..... :D

So, whatya think? Is there in fact a motor that lends itself nicely to this (yeah, I can bet it IS a SBC). Will I be better off bailing on the AMC? I might as well know that going into it, right?

Thanx

themaddhatter

most of the actual numbers i get are from this lil program by the name of desktop dyno... it's more of a fun thing to play with than a gospel source.



about the blowers...

ooohhh yes believe me i've thought about it :)

i checked out www.magnusonproducts.com, they make SCs for fuel injected applications, and i have yet to find something that will draw air, rather than force it, through the carburator. hopefully, i'll be able to find something with those sources you listed. would i need to get a higher cfm carb if i got a blower? e.g., 850 vs 600?

me and a buddy of mine have joked about building a mad max type machine like you talk about, only using small inline 4 cyl diesels (cummins 3.9L) at each wheel, and having an outboard independant suspension system. you drive the vehicle like a tank, varying throttle response at each wheel to control rate of turn, etc.

please, do tell about the hydrogen cell engines. the idea is intriguing.

"No one can have moments of sheer genius like an American tinker in a home garage!!"

amen to that

thanks again for the info

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I have the AMC360 right now as well as a full propane set-up. The 360 is going to bolt to the AMC TH400 I have and then to the ORD Doubler I have waiting in the wings. If I ditch the 360 in favor of the 351, I am not sure if I can get it to bolt up to the TH400. This would then start a whole new plethora of component hunting. And a bit of a wasted investment. One big question is how do the Ford engines like the 351 handle propane? Would it be as intensive to outfit the 351 like the 360 so it runs efficiently and with gobs of torque? I am not out for HP or to rev too high either. I am going to be offroading not running the 1/4 mile.:laughing: That is for another toy in my future. :) I am pretty set on running propane especially since I have to conform to smog reg's. There are a few other minor benefits but that is the biggie. I would appreciate the pro's and con's for these if you wouln't mind. Thanks TeamRush! BTW, its kinda kewl to know the guy with all the answers to some of the goodies that will make my rig run like a top. :D

EDIT - How would your 360 work with propane? or what would it take to MAKE it work? thanks again

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:mad3: I am on the wrong dang coast! I would just about kill or maim to be a fly on the wall in your shop and learn all of this! Your 360 sounds really good for what I am looking for, high torque and easily outfitted with my propane kit. MY reasons for running the propane, legally- is to not have to deal with smog regs and be exempt, personally- to just be different than most of the other 4x4 joes out there, and not to "skunk out" my fellow wheelers downwind on the trails while being nice to the environment.
If I got it right and bought your 360 I would need a good gasket kit. Anything else to keep it running right on the propane? Which heads are on your 360... reworked stock or aluminum? I have been told that propane is not kind to aluminum and that the valves and seats would need some modification and treament.
You mentioned diesel & propane and that I could run dual fuel that way. Well, the propane system I have right now is for carbuerated and if I understand it right, diesel is like fuel injection. IF so I am looking at needing another propane set-up which is definitely out of my budget for now. It wasn't clear to me that if I do run the diesel that I can still run with my AMC TH400 or I have to switch out(I'm not to quick with recalling all of GMs products... I am still pretty green, but am working on it).
I wished I had been more into auto shop back in jr. high and high school, because then I wouldn't be such a fawkin moron when it comes to this stuff. :rolleyes:I feel like Tom Cruise in the movie Days of Thunder when he knows how to drive but doesn't understand all of the mechanical stuff. EXCEPT for all of the wine, women, song, and of course his paycheck!!! If I had a minor portion of the paycheck I would have you build up the :nuke: powertrain I really want. And would know it was gonna last me longer than these new fangled overpriced toys! I have said it before TR and I'm sure to say it again that I appreciate your tutilage(sp?) and "online appreticing". Keith aka Tigger4X

EDIT - My TH400 is a full rebuild with 0 miles on it, but no upgrades like yours. Maybe I can sell this set off and pull a rabbit out of my hat and get a hold of your set! :wishing:

Been reading this thread for a couple days, and signed up mainly to be able to post a comment or two in here.
This is one amazing thread! I haven't seen so much info in one place since last trip to a library. TR, your information is really appreciated. I'm building a very mild 360 for a Wrangler YJ, and I'm very happy to know that I made a good choice with the Edelbrock Performer system. Since I probably will never even try to spin this over 5K, I'm hoping that the lower end will be good enough, and believe it will be. The bearings and crank look really good for 120K on the engine. Very slight wear on the bearings, and a few small scratches from oil dirt. The factory cam, however, is totally shot. Lobe lift on one lobe is .148", when the spec is for .266"! :eek: I have a feeling, although I haven't talked to them about it yet, that my machine shop won't have the equipment for a hot hone. Will the standard job they probably want to do be adequate for mild street/occasional-offroad daily driver use? Or is it really mandatory to find someplace that can do a hot hone?
Thanks!

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TR, you're correct that I'm not going for max power, high RPM, or propane. This will be used in daily traffic, several trips a year to the woods for off-roading etc., and pulling a small (10') travel trailer on those trips to the woods. Your basic daily transportation machine, really, but with a little more oomph than a worn-out 258. This engine did pretty good work in a Wagoneer, with a 2bbl, so it should shine in a light(er) Wrangler with a 4bbl, manual trans, and mild cam.
I have looked into 2 mods for the oiling, one for the 7/8 rods and one for the timing chain/distributor gear area, and am planning on doing both. What would be a method of increasing oil to the cam lobes? I haven't read anything about this one, but I already have one cam bad because of this.
I can also buy new rod bolts, and have the shop put them in so I can't screw them up. (Let them screw them up!) But budget restraints probably will prevent me from putting in aftermarket rods, particularly if the only good choice is the $800+ set you mentioned in a previous post. Are there cheaper ones out there that would be sufficient for my use, that cost maybe about a couple hundred? (I'm gonna find this out when my new PAW catalog gets to me, but I gotta ask.) Lacking that, my intent is to clean up the casting flash on my iron stock rods, and re-use them. I'm only planning on relatively low RPM. Reading your previous post, you said that this would be OK if under 5500 RPM.
Getting to be a long post, thanks much again for the invaluable information!
AJ

TR, ya mention how the 360 isn't strong enough to handle high rpm under load...

what about the 390 and 401 blocks? (yet more incentive for me to get one of the damn things...mmm...forged crank and rods good)