OK everyone I see that does this only shows the back, do you do this to the front or just do soa or what. And if they do 1/4 to the front can someone point me at a site or two.

THanks
Kris

:question: :question: :question: :question: :question: :question:
WHAT? Please rephrase the question!

!/4 in the front, NO... just use coils
most people just run spring-over in the front.
BTW you should have a VERY DETAILED knowledge of suspension design geometry before cracking into a 4-link.

If you got the skills... by all means go for it.
If not, just spring-over and be done with it.

There is a reason you have never seen 1/4 elliptic in the front. There is no way that it would work, at least thatm i have seen. SOA is basically what I have seen everybody use with a 1/4 rear. If you have any questions talk to Pig Pen. He just got done building one for his rear.

the first pic i saw of a sniper was one with 1/4 eliptic in the front. how well it worked i don't know but you don't see them running them anymore.

Avalanche has it as an option on the sniper so you know it has to work.


http://www.avalancheengr.com/buggies/pricing_sniper.htm

1/4 eliptical would work fine in front. It doesn't matter if you use coils or leaf springs, all they do is provide a spring force. You will need to design the link placement around your steering setup, engine interference and vehicle dynamics though. I think most only do the rear because it is easier to design and build.

Kevo

4x4extreme & high5 thanks for the info, thinking back I remember that someone from australia posted pics of what I think was a 1/4 f/b where the springs actually sat in a type of cup on the axle so the axles could drop away and not be limited by the spring.

SLO-J I don't see what the difference between a 1/4 in the front and coils would be. Everything I've seen with the rears basically makes it look like a 3 or 4 link which is essentially what coils are, I know they're technically 5 but you can eliminate one of those.

Thanks
Kris

Someone posted a pick of a 1/4 front here about a week ago. Seemed to work fine. I am going 1/4 rear and soa front, probably. But I was thinking that, depending on how well it worked in the rear, I would do it again in the front.

J. J.

It can be done but use coils. Two lowers, one upper and panhard = allgood, for the front that is...

Originally posted by 4x4extreme
Avalanche has it as an option on the sniper so you know it has to work.


http://www.avalancheengr.com/buggies/pricing_sniper.htm
Just because avalanche has it as an option doesnt mean it HAS to work...
Last time I checked, avalanche engineering wasnt the end all be all of suspension setups.. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by 1badjeep

Just because avalanche has it as an option doesnt mean it HAS to work...
Last time I checked, avalanche engineering wasnt the end all be all of suspension setups.. :rolleyes:


What a dumbass if you had a Avalanche suspension anything you'd be sooo fawkin proud you moron.. :D

I personally like Avalanche's stuff

Something to consider that has not been brought up is that a front 1/4 elip setup (or any 3 to 5 link setup) needs to be designed so that the caster angle does not change throughout the range of motion.

If you're building a triangulated 4 link, this means that the upper arms (UA) will need to be longer than the lower arms (LA). Roughly, the UA length will need to be the Square Root of the distance the UA moves inward squared plus the length of the LA squared. (That whole C = sqrt(A^2 + B^2) thing from geometry)

The problem with the 4 link is that usually the UA's won't clear the engine under full compression. This is where a 3 link comes in, because you can design the upper arm so that it is in the shape of a U (instead of a V like a 4 link)

my $ .02, usually worthless...

- Mike

Originally posted by 1badjeep

Just because avalanche has it as an option doesnt mean it HAS to work...
Last time I checked, avalanche engineering wasnt the end all be all of suspension setups.. :rolleyes:

No but there work is alot better than 99% of other shops:flipoff2:
I never said that they were the end of all suspensions if you go back and read they were wanting to know if it would work and every sniper I have seen works damn good

Regardless of whether you use coils, coilovers, or 1/4 elliptic springs, the design premises for the locating arms is the SAME. A spring is a spring is a spring regardless if it's made of flat pieces of bent metal or a spiral wound coil.

I seem to remember that when the Sniper with its front and rear 1/4 ellip. setups hit the scene, it pretty much spanked everything in the first few Warn Rockcrawling Championships that it competed in. Word through the grapevine is that Troy quit competing with Sniper #001 (or was it #002?) because all the dudes were getting pissed at him because it worked so well.

And the reason why you don't see many Snipers around is because of the $50k+ price tag associated with setting them up ... unless you've got the hookups on all the bits and pieces.

I'm not defending AE in any way, but the fact is, the Sniper and 1/4 ellip. front setups work ... damn well.

cm "touched a Sniper ... yessiree I did" k

Originally posted by cmk
I seem to remember that when the Sniper with its front and rear 1/4 ellip. setups hit the scene, it pretty much spanked everything in the first few Warn Rockcrawling Championships that it competed in. Word through the grapevine is that Troy quit competing with Sniper #001 (or was it #002?) because all the dudes were getting pissed at him because it worked so well.


Troy's Sniper is for Sale. I think he wanted $24,000 for it.

Originally posted by 1badjeep

Just because avalanche has it as an option doesnt mean it HAS to work...
Last time I checked, avalanche engineering wasnt the end all be all of suspension setups.. :rolleyes:

And the last I checked your jeep wasn't 1 bad Jeep

Originally posted by SLO-J
There is a reason you have never seen 1/4 elliptic in the front. There is no way that it would work, at least thatm i have seen. SOA is basically what I have seen everybody use with a 1/4 rear. If you have any questions talk to Pig Pen. He just got done building one for his rear.

You say that there is no way that it would work when I have seen it in several rigs. Why it is not more popular, I don't know. Maybe you know something that I don't. Would you care to share?

J. J.

Originally posted by patooyee


You say that there is no way that it would work when I have seen it in several rigs. Why it is not more popular, I don't know. Maybe you know something that I don't. Would you care to share?

J. J.

It is not more popular. 1/4 elliptic springs are used because of their adjustablilty (spring rate) and their cost. If you find the right coil/ coil over it is by far the better way to go.

Originally posted by Pig Pen


It is not more popular. 1/4 elliptic springs are used because of their adjustablilty (spring rate) and their cost. If you find the right coil/ coil over it is by far the better way to go.

Read carefully. I didn't say that it was more popular. I said that I was wondering why it wasn't more popular than it is. You still haven't explained why a 1/4 elip front is impossible, though.

J. J.

Originally posted by patooyee


Read carefully. I didn't say that it was more popular. I said that I was wondering why it wasn't more popular than it is. You still haven't explained why a 1/4 elip front is impossible, though.

J. J.

Read carefully. I never said it was impossible. Space and weight are why it is not the best choice.:fj:

Originally posted by SLO-J
There is no way that it would work, at least thatm i have seen.

:smokin: You're right. You just said that there was "no way that it would work." Which, to you, means that "space and weight don't make it the best choice." I should have known. :smokin:

Besides, compared to a 1/4 elip pack + a shock, is a shock + 2 coils + brackets really any lighter? I know that the coils out of my 1997 4Runner aren't much lighter than the regular old leaf springs out of my CJ. But if you cut the leafs in half, you're only talking ounces, IMO. Not to mention that the typical coil over setup I see on 4x4's has 2 coils, both of which are longer than my 4Runner coil.

J. J.

Originally posted by patooyee


:smokin: You're right. You just said that there was "no way that it would work." Which, to you, means that "space and weight don't make it the best choice." I should have known. :smokin:

Besides, compared to a 1/4 elip pack + a shock, is a shock + 2 coils + brackets really any lighter? I know that the coils out of my 1997 4Runner aren't much lighter than the regular old leaf springs out of my CJ. But if you cut the leafs in half, you're only talking ounces, IMO. Not to mention that the typical coil over setup I see on 4x4's has 2 coils, both of which are longer than my 4Runner coil.

J. J.

Read carefully. Who am I??? Am I SLO-J........NO. If you want to put 1/4 E's up front do it. When you cut the leaf in half you are also cutting the spring rate in half, which means you then need to add more leafs. As with the coil over issue. Can you tell me the ID of your Toy coil??? Is it bigger than a coil used for a 2" coil over?

Originally posted by patooyee


You say that there is no way that it would work when I have seen it in several rigs. Why it is not more popular, I don't know. Maybe you know something that I don't. Would you care to share?

J. J.

When I said impossible, i meant to get right. I have personally never seen somebody get it right.I'm not saying that nobody has either. With everything getting in the way such as steering and engine components it damn near seems impossible on a normal rig. Snipers are not normal rigs. They can be designed with spacial limitations in mind. And it seems that you can get plenty of flex out of a leaf spring or a coil in the front not to need a 1/4 elliptic. But I know, its cool. I hope that makes you FEEL BETTER patooyee. And you say you've seen it on many rigs, but do you know understand it?

Also, could somebody post some pics of vehicles with a 1/4 elliptic front. I would like to see it. Especially if its on a stock frame. Thanks.

Originally posted by :fj: Pen


Read carefully. Who am I??? Am I SLO-J........NO. If you want to put 1/4 E's up front do it. When you cut the leaf in half you are also cutting the spring rate in half, which means you then need to add more leafs. As with the coil over issue. Can you tell me the ID of your Toy coil??? Is it bigger than a coil used for a 2" coil over?

Oops! I am confused. Forgive me. I guess I am :smokin: .

J. J.

SLO-J, I just want to disagree with you on this one/. I think it can be done, as I have already designed mine. I have a frame design I am gonna build up into a wheeler. As for doing a 1/4 ellip, I have done it and I need some work on it, but all in all it is pretty bonehead. The front will work just great, you just can't throw it right under you motor. Space it forard some. As for steering, why go manual steering, when you can go FULL HYDRO!!!!! It will work even better if you can somehow get a centered output on the front. Or you can get sone of those EXTREME slip driveshafts, or have Jesse build you a SUPER long spline front. It can work, it just needs to be done. As for Avalanche, I do not like the,m, but they had one that worked great. I have witnessed it before, and I thikn they nailed it with the 1/4 kit for the front.

Dimitri

Originally posted by SLO-J


When I said impossible, i meant to get right. I have personally never seen somebody get it right.I'm not saying that nobody has either. With everything getting in the way such as steering and engine components it damn near seems impossible on a normal rig. Snipers are not normal rigs. They can be designed with spacial limitations in mind. And it seems that you can get plenty of flex out of a leaf spring or a coil in the front not to need a 1/4 elliptic. But I know, its cool. I hope that makes you FEEL BETTER patooyee. And you say you've seen it on many rigs, but do you know understand it?

Well, Snipers are basically normal rigs. They still use the same axles, same steering, and same suspension components that everyone else uses. And I THOUGHT I understood it, but since you say it's so impossible, I was wondering if there was something I was missing. But since you seem to be completely unable to bring up anything specific as to why it wouldn't work, I guess I DO understand it and you DON'T. It seems to me that you could attach a spring pack where you are proposing putting a coil-over just fine. I'm not trying to slam you here, just learn from you. If you say something is impossible or almost impossible and try to portray that you know what you are talking about, you should be able to tell me specifically what will be interfering with a 1/4 elip spring pack instead of just listing every general component on a front end. If you can do this, I will gladly admit that I did not understand it and thank you for clarifying for me. If not, that's fine, too.

J. J.

Oh, and I finally found it. What about this rig is impossible?

http://www.msg4x4club.com/members/member_pics/spider/flex03.jpg

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14295&highlight=elip

J. J.

Thank you patooyee for the pic. It seems that spider did a good job. I'm sorry if I portrayed to you that i was god and all knowing (lots of people make the mistake). Obviously in my first post i referred Blitz to another user who might know a little more about the subject. What i "thought was impossible" had to do with clearances and since you seem so intent on finding out, i'll explain. How could a shackle be attatched to the axle housing without it rotating into the steering? How could the 4-link be set up as not to interfere with the oil pan? Also, getting the vehicle to be stable on the road(if it ever sees it) I gotta go , but i'll return to the board.

Originally posted by SLO-J
How could the 4-link be set up as not to interfere with the oil pan?

Do you need to see a pic??? cause you know I got em...

Originally posted by SLO-J
What i "thought was impossible" had to do with clearances and since you seem so intent on finding out, i'll explain. How could a shackle be attatched to the axle housing without it rotating into the steering? How could the 4-link be set up as not to interfere with the oil pan? Also, getting the vehicle to be stable on the road(if it ever sees it)

You don't have to use a shackle. There's more than one way to attach a spring to an axle. And I believe that the above post says it all about the 4-link. You could do an upside down 4-link if you were really having that big of a problem. (Put the center links on bottom.)

J. J.

well the 4 link would setup would work like most coil fronts(example: TJ) interference w/the shackle? well hell i've got a high steer setup on my 44 front and i've got more then enough room to mount a shackle setup. hell probably more if i didn't have high steer arms. And the only thing different about a sniper might be the way the frame is made. i.e where it bends etc for clearance.
later
bob

You can also do a 3 link with a U shaped hoop up top to clear the oil pan. I think someone mentioned this before, but its an easy solution to the links hitting the oil pan.

Uhhm I'd like to withdraw the question your honor. j/k :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

SLO-J: As for attaching the spring to the axle I would think a double hinge would work or like I said earlier I know I've seen a setup where the spring wasn't attached to the axle and really just sat in a type of cup on the axle itself.

Thanks for the info about the U shaped arm for working around the oilpan that helps alot.

Let's keep the pics coming the more examples the better.

THanks
Kris

Yeah. I'd like to see what's so custom about the snipers that they are the only rig in the world that a 1/4 elip will work on the front of. ;)

J. J.