Cages,,,, Exo or interior?

[pokeyYJ]

What are your thoughts about putting a full rollcage on a 89 Classic?

I like the idea of an interior cage, but the extra work sounds like a lot of time.

Anyone have pics of what they have done?

[LR Max]

Pokey,

Check out this link. It shows the install of an interior roll cage in a disco. It might help give you some ideas.

I've seen this truck with the roll cage inside and it looked pretty cool.

http://www.thatchedroofgarage.com/Discorollcage.htm

Max T.

[marc olivares]

go with the exo,
let me know if you want some help, i'd love to do an exo for a rangie.
in slc, have JD2!!!! real question is do you got the nuggets for it?
marc

[DiscoDino]

Exos are good for 2 door Rovers as you can link the B-pillar vertical with teh slider...but the exo problem is that you cannot have any diagonals unless you forget about the tailgate.

I'll be creating a custom inner cage for my disco soon (nned some time on that). Basic ideas are to have as many diagonals as possible, 12 point to the cabin with extra big plates, 4 bucket seats in the cage, radio/ecu holder between driver and passanger (have changed 3 of each due to water), and other nib-nabs...should not cost me more than 500$. Safety devices are asking for 510GBPs for the camel type disco cage in the UK, that's without shipping!

[sachilles]

very true....diagonals offer a lot more strength.

you want to see a strong cage...check out SCCA regs on Pro-rally. It'll give you some good ideas.
I good cage builder can make a un-obtrusive cage.
I have one in my mini.....cage builder did an excellant job fitting it, as you might expect...not a lot of room to spare in a mini.
Find an experienced cage builder....its worth the extra money.

[Way]

I would go inner from a COG perspective. There is a lot more tube with Exos. Tubing is not light either and Range Rovers when lifted have a high enough COG as is. I would run the supports at least inside.

[DiscoDino]

I've been toggling around with sketches of my "custom" cage...I'll try to represent that digitally (i suck at drawing) and maybe get you guys to bash the hell out of it...
Inside cages save YOUR life, exos save the sheetmetal's...Your call.

[wilsby]

I run a Safety Devices full exo on my Defender. It has no diagonals, but is still exceptionally stiff and add tons of torsional resistance to the chassis. And I bang it into trees all the time. Perfect as rub rails.

It has one inside hoop. and I have put a lot of padding on that to protect my head. I think inside cages work best if you plan on using helmets.

[revor]

The whole idea behind a roll cage is to protect the occupants of the vehicle.. In most cases the the move from inside to the outside of the cage offers less protection to the occupants...
Think about it in a rollover, first the outside of the body (if there is one) collapses, then you get to the cage... Conversly is true with an exo cage... First the Exo has to "give it up" then the body of the truck... which is weak by comparison...Another way to think of it:
You are a Quarterback with the ball, wouldn't you like as your first line of defense as the 180 # WR and the second line of defense a 300# offensive lineman?
The odds of survival are much better...
Don't get me wrong, an exo cage can be, and is in some cases as good as an interior cage but the fact that the outside mounts of the exo are soooo much further outboard of center line of the truck means that it needs be able to contain a whole lot more leverage than the inside cage... LR Exo's where an afterthought.. While they are nicly put together I would feel much safer in a 110 truck with a Camel interior cage... This is one place where "Marketing" (interior space) won out over true safety...
"Disclaimer" In most the slow speed stuff we do the differences will never really matter"

[wilsby]

All cages are afterthoughts, unless you run a tube chassis, and the strength of the roof of at least the Defender is neglible compared to the cage.

Taking the football analogy further, wouldn't you rather have the lining on the inside of your helmet? Cars are typically smoth and padded on the inside, while a steel tube is a bad thing to hit your head on.

[Bertha the Cruiser]

Originally posted by wilsby


Taking the football analogy further, wouldn't you rather have the lining on the inside of your helmet? Cars are typically smoth and padded on the inside, while a steel tube is a bad thing to hit your head on.

See Seth's comments about a finding a good cage builder...you won't hit your head....if you're belted in.

[aloharover]

Originally posted by revor

Don't get me wrong, an exo cage can be, and is in some cases as good as an interior cage but the fact that the outside mounts of the exo are soooo much further outboard of center line of the truck means that it needs be able to contain a whole lot more leverage than the inside cage.

Cool, physics, an explanation I understand.
I always figured exo was better. This one (albeit long) sentance totally makes sense to me.
Thank you.

I do like the idea of an exo for body protection. I tend to use trees and big rocks as pivot points and thought the exo would help this.
But sinse there are not really that many panels worth saving any longer, I do see why interior is better. Too bad that with an 88 an interior cage really does make a noticable change to space.

Question, I have never seen a good interior A hoop in a defender/series rig. One idea I had was to reinforce the top (this is a IIa bulkead) and have the hoop end in a flat plate that runs the full width of the vehicle.

[deathorglory]

just taking a look at the safety devices cage and was wondering if that is just bolted to the floor.
i dont know crap about cages but is the floor strong enough to just bolt down to it without connecting it somehow to the frame?

also what size pipe would be recommended for this application?

[wilsby]

The Safety devices Defender cage ties in to the chassis/chassis outriggers on eight points. It doesn't use the body for anything. That is basically the same whether you go full exo or full camel. The front hoop is always on the outside, since an inside hoop doesn't do you any good if you have a cracked skull. And yeah, Safety Devices are pro's. It may be different for other cars, and certainly is if you wear a helmet. But believe me, you don't want the A-hoop on the inside in a Defender. That has nothing to do with how good the builder is.

[sachilles]

If you are ever going to truly need a cage....ie roll over. You'll wish you had a helmet on, even if you don't smack your head against the cage tubing. Your head could smack the glass hard enough to give you a concusion.
Any cage will be more intrusive, than no cage at all. However, some compromises must be made.
The cage is my race car is so tight to the body work....I couldn't slip a piece of paper behind when it came time to spray paint it. So a good cage builder is definately worth it.
Roll cage padding is also essential. It only takes takes one knock on the cage getting in or out of your vehicle to realize that. Its relatively cheap.
Check out Jegs, or racerwholesaleparts.com or pegasus racing for padding and other cage accessories.
Anything is better than nothing....just make sure what every design that you go for, do it right.
I learned about cages from an experience racer....he said he was so proud about the first cage he had created and welded himself. That was until his brother came along, took a hammer and broke the thing apart easily. It was better he found out from his brother rather than running into a tree or a rock.
You have not suggested that you would skimp on the cage, just want to make sure you knew not to....a cheap cage can be more dangerous than no cage at all.

-Seth

[wilsby]

A helmet is definitely a good idea, as is padding. I have yet to see somone use a helmet for daily driving, though. I'm sure there are several sources for padding. Safete Devices is one, and it is FIAA approved. It is very hard, so you need to pad the padding if you plan on using it without a helmet.

Over here, four point and more harnesses are not road legal, so you need to appoing your car so you can still use the less restrictive three point seatbelts and not be knocked out.

My views on cages are biased from wheeling with the whole family, as well as using the truck for expedition style trips. But Seth is right, the important thing is to have a good cage, regardless of what design you choose.

[DiscoDino]

This Thread is useless without pics! :flipoff2:
(just thought that we needed this now...:rolleyes: )

[aloharover]

Originally posted by wilsby
But believe me, you don't want the A-hoop on the inside in a Defender. That has nothing to do with how good the builder is.

Why not? Then what does it have to do with?

[deathorglory]

on an rrc where would one tie into the chassis? the only places i can think of would be where the outriggers are for the body mounts and i dont know how you could strongly attach to them. otherwise would it be recommended to weld your own outriggers onto the frame and then attach to them.
these outriggers could also be used to attach sliders
if this is how it could be done how much does the body actually move on the frame? would that be an issue?
i was curious about the safety devices cage because on the disco (linked from above) the cage looks like it only bolts to the floor.

[wilsby]

I think that Discos and Rangies have much firmer steel bodies thand Defenders, and that the internal Safety Devices cages more or less are bolted to the body, but I may be wrong there. On a Defender, it goes through the aluminum and is bolted to the chassis.

Why not the hoop on the inside of a Defender? Because it is to close to my head and my passengers head for comfort, unless strapped in with four or more points harnesses. And they are not road legal here, so you're stuck with a normal seat belt for road use. With a lot of padding maybe, but that would obscure the top four inches or so of the windshield.

[sachilles]

In unibodied cars, the cage is in part tied to the body. Usually, you have a large base plate attached to the end of the cage tubing, another large baseplate is on the other side of the metal. The theory being, that the larger the area, the tougher it would be to have the tin can effect.
A good cage would go through the fire wall and attach to the shock towers and/or the frame at the front, as well as the tower in the back of the vehicle. The force from a crush from above would not be entirely taken by the tubes attached to the floor boards.

You may also look into a shop that preps rally cars, for inspiration/advice. There cages are more appropriate than a circle track cage for instance.
Currently, FIA sanction Rallies in Europe, and some of our SCCA Pro Rally guys use a different concept with there cages, which are designed to take rolls, as well as side impacts to trees. They do not use a tradition roof hoop. Their hoops go from the top to the bottom and around that way(vertical, instead of horizontal).
Same type of cage that was in the Subaru Rally car that Lovell was killed in earlier this year. The car was drivable after the incident, yet the drivers where killed......the cage was strong....maybe too strong. The impact snapped the necks of the two occupants. Yet the cage did not deform. They would have been traveling at 100+ mph.
A rollover in a trail rig, should me much slower....so you could never have something that is too strong. As impact shock would not be as big of a deal.

-Seth

[aloharover]

Originally posted by wilsby

Why not the hoop on the inside of a Defender? Because it is to close to my head and my passengers head for comfort, unless strapped in with four or more points harnesses.

____
/ <---------Here
/

Aloha.
I am missing something. In my mind the A-pillar hoop runs up the firewall and around the edge of the windshield.

The B-pillar hoop is behind the front seats.

I can see how someone hits their head on the B-pillar (btdt) if its not done correctly. But how exactly are people hitting their heads on the A-pillar?
I mean if you actually measure from your hip joint to the top of the windscreen, its the furthest point away from you.

Pete

[Bertha the Cruiser]

Originally posted by sachilles

I learned about cages from an experience racer....he said he was so proud about the first cage he had created and welded himself. That was until his brother came along, took a hammer and broke the thing apart easily. It was better he found out from his brother rather than running into a tree or a rock.
You have not suggested that you would skimp on the cage, just want to make sure you knew not to....a cheap cage can be more dangerous than no cage at all.

-Seth

Seth! You need to come out and see the shop!!!

We're starting the XJ cage in a week or two!!!

[pokeyYJ]

Where would you guys run the tubing? Along the pillars or another place. I was looking at the pillar that runs down by the back of the front seats, B pillar?, it looks really tight right there with the factory seats.

[sachilles]

Originally posted by AV4x4


Seth! You need to come out and see the shop!!!

We're starting the XJ cage in a week or two!!!

Uhhh what shop? where?
Archie's roll make you wish you had a little extra protection?;)


For everyone....an excellant resource is the spec/rules manual for SCCA pro-rally. Lots of decent pics of a general nature.

Also sounds like some wish to put harnesses in....it has good documentation on that as well.....doing that wrong can mess you up too.

[evilscrambler]

i was in a roll over the weekend. it was a jeep not a rover but is still landed my side on the ground. we had just done some additional work to the cage that made a huges difference. we also had helmets on. it was the 1st time i had worn one in a rig and what a difference i felt with it on. there were marks on it after the roll too.
it was more of a flop then a roll onto the roof. there are rocks on the low side that i landed on.
this was in the TDR event mentioned else where.
http://forum.neow.net/index.php?showtopic=12404&st=30

i plan on getting a helmet to run with in mine from now on.

[wilsby]

Glad your gear worked and that your'e unhurt. I guess riding with a helmet on recreational trips is a little like using a bicycle helmet. It makes sense, but it's hard to get started. Don't know why.

[sachilles]

either that or you should make sure your brakes work:eek: :D

Still very impressed you made it up the stairway.