View Full Version : So, what constitutes a violation of 4th ammendment rights?
What's required for a legal search warrant? Who really knows this stuff anyway?
JParuBob
10-03-2003, 11:51 AM
probable cause?
What demonstrates probable cause though. I mean just how often are new occupants of a house searched due to the actions of the previous occupants? Just how fricken common is this?
Monkeyboy
10-03-2003, 11:54 AM
Is 4 month old wrong information probable cause?
That's tied to a phone line that had a different billing contacts name at the time?
Damage, Inc.
10-03-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by mike
What demonstrates probable cause though. I mean just how often are new occupants of a house searched due to the actions of the previous occupants? Just how fricken common is this?
That would likely be thrown out of court, if that's the case. Unless you go before the judge that *issued* the warrant!!
Well, yea I figured I have nothing serious to worry about. I'm still livid however at being woken up by 25 armed agents and forced to sit in the street in my fawking underwear for absolutely nothing. I understand folks trying to apprehend criminals, but shouldnt some better research go down first?
Originally posted by Monkeyboy
Is 4 month old wrong information probable cause?
Dude. more like 8 and 9 months old.
SanDiegoCJ
10-03-2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by mike
Well, yea I figured I have nothing serious to worry about. I'm still livid however at being woken up by 25 armed agents and forced to sit in the street in my fawking underwear for absolutely nothing. I understand folks trying to apprehend criminals, but shouldnt some better research go down first?
Sounds like you have ample grounds for a lawsuit.
Thats the thing I'm not a litigous kind of guy so even going there's kinda difficult. I will say everyone was professional enough and appologetic once they realized it was fubar. And they're willing to deal with our neighbors and help out that way, but shit even so what would you think if your newish neighbor was hauled outa his house by a buncha cops. even if the cops told you they had the wrong person would you believe it?
Monkeyboy
10-03-2003, 12:14 PM
I don't like lawsuits.
You might end up with some money and the lawyer will get most of it.
Fawk them
Lawyers are like TAP in Rancho Cordova:flipoff2:
Renee
10-03-2003, 12:15 PM
We're actually talking about this in my Poli Sci class right now. Since the USAPatriotAct has passed, it is much much easier to get a search warrant, and in some cases, you don't need one at all. Before the act was passed however, all they need is suspicion and/or probable cause, or in some cases, consent.
Berzerker
10-03-2003, 12:16 PM
:eek: Damn! That sucks! What were they looking for?
Oxjockey
10-03-2003, 12:18 PM
On one of those murder shows, they'd lost their ability to search a house that was sold to new owners without the new owner's permission first.
Don't know what state, or when, but...sounds like they screwed up.
The warrant basically allowed them to confiscate pretty much anything they wanted to in the house. Computers, electonic media, books, magazines, mailing labels, mailing supplies, mail, you name it. All on a warrant issued by a federal judge on a STREET ADDRESS, I think that's the part that disturbs me the most.
Erich In AZ
10-03-2003, 12:19 PM
When I was just dating Jen we got pulled out of our car, full felony stop style, with mucho guns pointed right at us due to a 'mistake' in the NCIC (?) computer that showed the car was stolen. This was after the title had been transfered 3 times at the DMV since the alleged theft. Turned out to be a 'Big mis-understanding' :shaking:
All we got was a 'Oops, sorry' :mad3:
Our cops here are bad
proletariat
10-03-2003, 12:19 PM
Ask for some business cards (aka get out of speeding ticket free cards). They owe you that much. You'd probably be better off letting it go if it was an honest mistake. What would really suck is if they broke into an innocent person's house that is prepared to defend against unannounced invaders , and someone got shot. Irrelevant to this story, but it would suck just the same.
This wasn't local PD guys. This was 2 federal lettered agencies.
Oxjockey
10-03-2003, 12:21 PM
Call the local news channels. Then make your neighbors watch.
Originally posted by proletariat
Ask for some business cards (aka get out of speeding ticket free cards). They owe you that much. You'd probably be better off letting it go if it was an honest mistake. What would really suck is if they broke into an innocent person's house that is prepared to defend against unannounced invaders , and someone got shot. Irrelevant to this story, but it would suck just the same.
umm dude, i was about 3 seconds away from grabbing a firearm when my wife opened the door and there were cops all over the place.
Travis Waldher
10-03-2003, 12:22 PM
MAN... that sucks!
That's all I got to say... :(
Travis Waldher
10-03-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by mike
This wasn't local PD guys. This was 2 federal lettered agencies.
Hmm..
FBI
DEA
wanna confirm?
Being feds... I would seriously get a lawyer. It'de be worth the suit, even if the lawyer got most. I hold fed agents to a higher standard than local police. They should have done their job and checked their sources.
Erich In AZ
10-03-2003, 12:24 PM
This is pretty good show, taped in 1995'ish about how the government can take pretty much anything they want without much cause. It was released bye the A&E network. It's called 'Seized by the law'. I highly recommend seeing this.
http://www.internet-store-discount.com/vhs/Genres/Television/A_E_Home_Video/Government_Law_Crime/P-0000000a0000436b30616b3037324d50/Seized_By_the_Law/
proletariat
10-03-2003, 12:30 PM
I changed my mind. In your position I'd be very pissed as well (it's easy to sympathize w/ the coppers from this desk chair). I can see following it up if it was Federal people. Maybe try the chain of command thing first instead of insta-suite.
rusted
10-03-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Erich In AZ
This is pretty good show, taped in 1995'ish about how the government can take pretty much anything they want without much cause. It was released bye the A&E network. It's called 'Seized by the law'. I highly recommend seeing this.
http://www.internet-store-discount.com/vhs/Genres/Television/A_E_Home_Video/Government_Law_Crime/P-0000000a0000436b30616b3037324d50/Seized_By_the_Law/
That is a great show, and an excellent reccomendation.
mike, WTF? You should be on the phone with an attorney. This is not really your decision now is it? IMO you're obligated to hold your government accountable.
Scott@Rockstomper
10-03-2003, 01:01 PM
I remember reading something a while back about how a court upheld a conviction for drugs, on a search warrant that wasn't even executed on the right place. The deal was that the cops that did the search, were illiterate morons, and got the right address, but the wrong floor of the apartment complex or something. Found drugs, guy got busted, and the conviction stuck. Something about "in good faith". The warrant wasn't even to look for drugs, it was something else, and the guy they busted in on, happened to have drugs.
Still a load-o-BS... if they've got intel that says to bust on in at whatever-the-hell-AM 'cause the guy they're looking for will be there then... that intel sure the hell shoulda told 'em that he didn't live there any more. Do they stop researching six months before a bust? Are they backlogged that bad? If they *are* backlogged so bad that it takes six months to execute a warrant, they shouldn't be getting more warrants, they should be working through the backlog.
(sounds of jackbooted thugs)
I suspect, even if you do take 'em to court, you'll just end up with a big lawyer bill, and they'll get off on that the warrant was valid for where they went and all... :mad:
Well dude, I'm torn. I'm thoroughly pissed off yet am also interesting in facilitating the investigation so that the proper person can be caught. I've been a somewhat "marginalized" person in terms of my opinion of law enforcement since the early 90's and this has pushed me a little further away from trusting anyone with a badge or the judicial system in general. All this a few weeks before I was planning on purchasing a new handgun and putting in CCW paperwork again. Now, if this disturbs those plans I'll be really fawking pissed off.
Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper
I suspect, even if you do take 'em to court, you'll just end up with a big lawyer bill, and they'll get off on that the warrant was valid for where they went and all... :mad:
that's my sneaking suspicion too Scott. We sure have lost a shitload of rights since 92 haven't we? :mad:
PTSchram
10-03-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by mike
All this a few weeks before I was planning on purchasing a new handgun and putting in CCW paperwork again. Now, if this disturbs those plans I'll be really fawking pissed off.
It will be curious to see if your address sets off any alarms when you apply. I currently hold a CCW permit and have for nearly 20 years (next week). I am continuously amazed and frightened at the situations where it comes up as a result of minor checks. Most recently, my CCW permit came up when I applied for business insurance.
As for your situation, talk to a lawyer dammit! Your civil rights were infringed upon. Warrants used to be (prior to the misnamed Patriot act) very specific as to place, persons and things to be seized.
By chance did they tell you who they were looking for and why? Tell us dammit!
Sorry for your luck.
Peace,
Paul
Yeah it'll be interesting. Not like I haven't held one before so this should be a no brainer. I've been harassed over such stupid things as the length of my hair and the make/model of vehicle I've been driving and found out that a SYF sticker is probable cause in Howard County Maryland. Had my vehicles seached more often than I wanna think about. But always come out clean. Now I'm older, I have 3 kids at home for christs sakes. One of them, my oldest, was in the fricken shower and came out wrapped in a robe to a house full of agents. :mad: When I think about how badly it could have turned out I get more and more pissed. Granted I'm also very glad that everything stayed cool and that the agents were professional about the whole thing. But it's really an experience I could have gone my whole life without having :mad: I think I'll call a lawyer friend of ours and get his opinion. I don't like litigation as a whole but why should anyone have to go through this? Oh and Paul, they did tell us. But I aint sharing till they've gotten to the last person that lived here. And Travis, the DEA did not make an appearence.
Curtis
10-03-2003, 01:47 PM
See what ya get for moving out of California?? :flipoff2: :flipoff2:
Originally posted by Curtis
See what ya get for moving out of California?? :flipoff2: :flipoff2:
Oh come awn, you gotta have better than that :flipoff2: I at least expected some commentary or something ;)
APRILRAZZ
10-03-2003, 02:19 PM
You can get pulled over for not driving a minivan in Howard co anymore:rolleyes:
I wont even get started on Rockville.
landusepbb
10-03-2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Monkeyboy
Is 4 month old wrong information probable cause?
See People v. Miller decided by the Colorado Supreme Ct. on September 8 by a 4-3 vote. In that case a search warrant was obtained on month old info, the defense wanted the evidence excluded, the CO Supremes decided the evidence must be excluded due to the info being too old. This was a meth lab case. If you want more info on this case, email me.
Curtis
10-03-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by mike
Oh come awn, you gotta have better than that :flipoff2: I at least expected some commentary or something ;)
I really don't know what to say except :eek: The people who used to live here were constantly busted for drugs. These guys even put traps in the orchard for the cops to get hurt on (and they did get hurt too). So, when we moved in, I made sure to call law enforcement in the area to tell them the other guys were gone. We had a Tehama County Sheriff stop by and check things out. I voluntarily let them look around and see the losers were gone. I even sent copies of my first two months of PG&E bills in because the bill dropped from $700 a month to $50 a month since we aren't cooking drugs like the other people were.
The bottom line is it REALLY sucks this happened to you and am glad it never happened to me. But, I would be beyond furious if I were you and would seek legal advice at least.
Curtis
10-03-2003, 02:32 PM
BTW-You say they had the right, under the warrant, to take anything they wanted. Did they take anything?
SanDiegoCJ
10-03-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by mike
I do, email on it's way
mike, I'm not the suing type either, but what happened to you
is inexcusable. You should be able to file a claim with the local
city or county for damages. That's the first step you have to take
here before you can sue. If the local government rejects your
claim, then you can sue. Seeing as you said the cops admitted
that they'd "fawked up", you should have a good chance of getting
some compensation from this. If for no other reason, file a claim
to make sure this is brought up for public knowledge and it may
help keep it from happening again to someone else.
Originally posted by Curtis
BTW-You say they had the right, under the warrant, to take anything they wanted. Did they take anything?
No, they scanned the contents of my computers, took pictures and that was it. At that point it pretty much seemed cursory, like they do to rule out folks. I even stood in the kitchen bsing with their computer tech who gave me crap about having a wireless network till I showed him the destroyed laptop dongles from the toddlers yanking on them. I did learn though that after securing the area, half the agents will sit around and look at your tools. One of these days I'll scan it and send it to you dude, it's scary. Really. Oh and I'm thinking I should go after qwest too, it was their billing information fuckup that caused the whole mess.
APRILRAZZ
10-03-2003, 02:40 PM
Why the crap about the wireless?
BTW how did mom make out after the storm?
Istandalone
10-03-2003, 02:41 PM
Musta been the FBI and Postal Inspectors or Revenuers.
Looking for kiddie porn - I would guess.
Long investigation with lists of names addresses and e-mail accounts. Probably not stale.
Staleness depends on the circumstances, but they shoulda checked the latest billing info.
You might have a civil rights action.
Originally posted by APRILRAZZ
Why the crap about the wireless?
BTW how did mom make out after the storm?
Mom did ok. Ended up not even being flooded. The wireless was cause well.... I could have run wire, which is more secure but... we tried that. The damned kids pull on em ;)
Lloyd
10-03-2003, 02:58 PM
:eek: Damn, mike. Sorry to hear about that.
Originally posted by Istandalone
Musta been the FBI and Postal Inspectors or Revenuers.
No postal, or revenue. Customs.
PTSchram
10-03-2003, 03:10 PM
SYF Sticker-gun toting deadheads:rolleyes:
Been to 69 shows, hassled quite often, but never searched. Damn good thing too, never know what they might have found. The time they tried to bust me for bogus tickets, I even had the receipt to my mother's credit card I used to buy the tickets. As the cop said "how many of these hippies have the receipt to their tickets?"
Good luck, from the agency involved, it could have been a number of things, none remotely good.
Peace,
Paul
Originally posted by PTSchram
SYF Sticker-gun toting deadheads:rolleyes:
HAHAHAH No one can say I'm predictable ;) Ever have a creepy feeling just knowing that you know someone who might be into something? :eek: Ack it's a horrible feeling, spent the whole first day with a knot in my gut about that alone.
Travis Waldher
10-03-2003, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by mike
Customs.
Well..
Customs or INS?
Either way thats an interesting combination.
MattS
10-03-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Curtis
I really don't know what to say except :eek: The people who used to live here were constantly busted for drugs. These guys even put traps in the orchard for the cops to get hurt on (and they did get hurt too). So, when we moved in, I made sure to call law enforcement in the area to tell them the other guys were gone. We had a Tehama County Sheriff stop by and check things out. I voluntarily let them look around and see the losers were gone. I even sent copies of my first two months of PG&E bills in because the bill dropped from $700 a month to $50 a month since we aren't cooking drugs like the other people were.
If that's not the icing on the cake. Everytime from now on when you make some crazy ass comment I'm gonna give you shit about the fumes in your house. And you being whacked out on them!
Oh gotta include your favorite smile. :p :p :p
Originally posted by Travis Waldher
Well..
Customs or INS?
Either way thats an interesting combination.
Customs and FBI. I recongnize their badges ;)
Travis Waldher
10-03-2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by mike
Customs and FBI. I recongnize their badges ;)
that just makes teh idle mind race with ideas of what they mighta been investigating. :p
So 2 of the 3 people that actually WERE in the house got a note on their door to "please call" the feds. I'm completely fawking livid now :mad:
Erich In AZ
10-04-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by mike
So 2 of the 3 people that actually WERE in the house got a note on their door to "please call" the feds. I'm completely fawking livid now :mad:
Your kidding right? They drag you in street, but leave the REAL fuckwads a pretty little note???? :confused: :eek: :shaking:
Originally posted by Erich In AZ
Your kidding right? They drag you in street, but leave the REAL fuckwads a pretty little note???? :confused: :eek: :shaking:
Well they cleared these two too. Narrowed it down to the third person who was renting a room and is now out of state. But essentially yea.
what that tells me is they're afraid they'll fuckup again :rolleyes: shoulda been concerned about that the first time too.
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