Has any one seen or tried this set up?
The reason I am looking into this set up is I have 2 sets of EB nuckels and I herd if you use the flat top style I would need to change over to the chevy brakes. I already have ford disk that work great and they are payed for. Also I can do this set up my self so it would be little out of pocket $. Any info would be great. And if I am way off on the chev/ford thing let me know. Thanks Rokcrln.

I have seen a quite a few similar homemade weld ons like this up in our neck of the woods and haven't seen any problems with them, but the rigs they were on owners were above average welders so it was welded and guseted like the pic...

Yeh it looks like it should work fine. And just some personal info, I am a union Certified welder for 6 years now and I have been welding for 14 years so I am not worried about that just if it seems like a good idea or not. But thanks!

that looks like the orange explorer that is on the board, he should chime in. i think Flyin Hi did the work. but those welds look real nice and you had better be a good welder. maliable iron does not weld well. good luck.
steelman

Yes it is the orange exp. And you are right it does not weld well but with the right rod and pre heating and POST HEATING it can be done well. I may even have my bud weld it for me, If I break into his bed room and give it to him while sleeping it should be done by morning and he will never know what happened!!!

Originally posted by steelman
that looks like the orange explorer that is on the board, he should chime in. i think Flyin Hi did the work. but those welds look real nice and you had better be a good welder. maliable iron does not weld well. good luck.
steelman

you are correct SM...that belongs to Rick...owner and admin of www.explorerforum.com . you may have better luck gettin ahold of him over there.

:confused: :confused:

can you say hi nickel content? I knew you could...

looks like a simple and easy solution for guys without flat knuckles. the welds need to be good like yah said but i dont see any probs with it

looks good... just hope that doesnt break off one day. BTW: Nice welds :D

If you have the ford 150 knuckles for the disk brakes (5 bolt spindle pattern) There is enough room (not as much as chevy flat tops) to drill and tap 3 holes for a hysteer arm, you'd have to make yer own arm though cause the spacing is different from how it's done on the chevy knuckles.

aaron

D and C Extreme does a Cross Over on Scout 44's like that, I think they sell a kit. They also have a web site...:)

should work just fine if the weld is REAL GOOD.....good luck..:beer: :p :D

Originally posted by fatkid
D and C Extreme does a Cross Over on Scout 44's like that, I think they sell a kit. They also have a web site...:)

The website is http://www.dandcextreme.com The owners name is Damien, he goes by Snoopy on the board.

is that an extra long upper ball joint?

That doesn't look like a Ford knuckle though. It has six studs for attaching the spindle instead of the usual five.

Where do they get the "grafted-on" arm from?

Jake

Originally posted by cmegoup
That doesn't look like a Ford knuckle though. It has six studs for attaching the spindle instead of the usual five.

the earlier ford 44 knuckles had 6 - that's what my '74 EB has, the 76-77EBs have 5, not sure when the F150s and such converted to 5 though.

Originally posted by injectedEB


the earlier ford 44 knuckles had 6 - that's what my '74 EB has, the 76-77EBs have 5, not sure when the F150s and such converted to 5 though.

If it's half ton and factory disk brakes, it's a 5 bolt pattern on the spindle. 76 is the first year for disks on 1/2 tons. I've also been told, the 3/4 ton 44 with disks has the 5 bolt pattern for the spindle too. But i have not personally seen it to know for sure.

aaron

Originally posted by Danger Ranger


If it's half ton and factory disk brakes, it's a 5 bolt pattern on the spindle. 76 is the first year for disks on 1/2 tons. I've also been told, the 3/4 ton 44 with disks has the 5 bolt pattern for the spindle too. But i have not personally seen it to know for sure.

aaron

i have heard that rumor as well, but ford build with whatever they had laying around, i found a 6 bolt disc brake spindle from a TTB bronco the other day, the same one EB'ers use to put chevy disc brakes on

Originally posted by welndmn


i have heard that rumor as well, but ford build with whatever they had laying around, i found a 6 bolt disc brake spindle from a TTB bronco the other day, the same one EB'ers use to put chevy disc brakes on

All of the 1/2 ton TTB knucles I have seen have been 6 bolt.

:D ford again, all i have seen are 5 bolt, heck my 88 bronco is a 5 bolt as well

Great, I get to be the lone dissenter...

Well, you asked if I thought it was a good idea or not....

My answer is a resounding "DEFINATELY NOT".:eek:

No matter wht rod or process you use, you canot safely weld mild steel to cast in a structural application.

I've discussed this with a friend of mine who is the Castings manager at the Cat plant, Mech E with a PhD in metalurgy - knows his shit. he says you should never weld cast, and especially not steel to cast in astryctural application.

So why do they make Hi Nickel content rods? For 'cosmetic repair".

Not sure - just call the manufacturer of whatever rod you plan to use and ask them if an appropriate use is welding mild steel to cast in a "your life depends on it" structural application...and see what they say. i alrready know - coz I did already.

Really bad idea, IMHO

Sorry it took me so long to respond :D FST did the job, they are the fab shop for FLY-N-HI. It's held up well for over a year now and it's been abused pretty good.

Those are Chevy knuckles. I'm using brakes from an '80 Blazer. Just using what we had.

The "grafted" on arm was custom made.

This is from that Scout site

http://www.dandcextreme.com/buildup/pro2/image/day3brakea.jpg

It's welded up also.

Explorer, Is that a pitman arm that they used? Would that be better to weld Cast to Cast or does it not mater?


So as far as the chev swap, Mine are (both sets) 6 bolt soon to be studs. Do all chev have 5 bolts and this is why I would need to go to chev brk set up? Are the scouts also 5 bolt?

Next could I use the chev nuckle and spindle and then all my other brk parts?
Thanks Kevin

Originally posted by FordPowr


All of the 1/2 ton TTB knucles I have seen have been 6 bolt.

Hmmmmm, my '89 Bronco was 5 bolt.

I posted a pic on the bider side under z link.

That looks like a pitman arm. Not sure though. I just grabbed the photo from their site.

I don't know what all comes from what. There are a lot of folks here who are more knowledgeable than I am about that :D

You're not the only dissenter.

I don't care if it's held up for a year or not. That doesn't make it right.

'Round here, welding on steering is an automatic failure for inspections. Period. There's a reason for it. Sure, you can say "it's done right", or "no prob's", or "a certified welder did that" but how do you know "for sure" that it's going to hold up that one time you really need it, to avoid an accident, etc.?

No way in Hell I'd trust my life with that, nor anyone else's. And I can't believe someone would actually do that abomination to the Scout arm, then better yet take a picture and post it!

Spend the $ and get a proper high steer arm. Hopefully your life is worth that. If not, then hopefully a friend's is.

And yes, I have welded cast. And welded steel to cast. Successfully.

--Rob

Originally posted by BillaVista
Great, I get to be the lone dissenter...

Well, you asked if I thought it was a good idea or not....

My answer is a resounding "DEFINATELY NOT".:eek:

[...]
Really bad idea, IMHO

Originally posted by BillaVista
Great, I get to be the lone dissenter...

Well, you asked if I thought it was a good idea or not....

My answer is a resounding "DEFINATELY NOT".:eek:

No matter wht rod or process you use, you canot safely weld mild steel to cast in a structural application.

I've discussed this with a friend of mine who is the Castings manager at the Cat plant, Mech E with a PhD in metalurgy - knows his shit. he says you should never weld cast, and especially not steel to cast in astryctural application.

So why do they make Hi Nickel content rods? For 'cosmetic repair".

Not sure - just call the manufacturer of whatever rod you plan to use and ask them if an appropriate use is welding mild steel to cast in a "your life depends on it" structural application...and see what they say. i alrready know - coz I did already.

Really bad idea, IMHO

I work for the Cat dealer down here. Ask your friend how Cat puts the excavator booms together. They are cast where the pins go in and mild steel for the rest of the boom. At least all the ones I've seen, from the 301.5 excavator up to the 5130 excavator.

This is why I like this board. I really appreciate the abundance of people with real world experience, technical knowledge and mechanical knowledge.

Even though there may be dissenting opinions you at least get to hear two side (at least) and then you can make an educated decision as to which direction to go with a project.

Originally posted by BillaVista
Great, I get to be the lone dissenter...

Well, you asked if I thought it was a good idea or not....

My answer is a resounding "DEFINATELY NOT".:eek:

No matter wht rod or process you use, you canot safely weld mild steel to cast in a structural application.



There are many axles that have a cast center section and steering yokes, but steel axle tubes, and everything is welded together. How is it that these hold up OK if you can't safely weld cast to steel? Is it just because they're a press-fit as well?

--Dan

just because it is a cast piece doesnt mean it is cast iron does it?
I thought that was brought up in another thread on a similar subject, welding suspension brackets on the centre section?
as it takes about 15minutes to become a certified vehicle inspector I never take their word as to what is "legal" or correct.
Superlift sells a ton of Superrunner steering kits for ford TTB trucks, all welded together

http://www.superlift.com/gifs/6-3.GIF

Yes, steel tubes are pressed into the cast banjos and knuckle yokes. Roset (sp?) welds are only put in to keep the tubes from twisting or pulling out of the banjo. Welds on the knuckle yokes to the tubes are only there to assist the pressed state between the tubes and yokes.

Also, think of the types of directions of forces on, in particular, the welds on the knuckle yokes. Quite a bit different from the loads applied to the steering arms.

--Rob

Originally posted by houlster



There are many axles that have a cast center section and steering yokes, but steel axle tubes, and everything is welded together. How is it that these hold up OK if you can't safely weld cast to steel? Is it just because they're a press-fit as well?

--Dan

You're correct, there is a difference between cast iron and cast steel.

I don't take an inspector's words about what is legal and "correct" either. That's why I bought a copy of the reg's. And I can quote from there (from the act and from the inspection reg's) that welding on steering is an automatic failure.

Just because a lift kit company sells parts doesn't mean they are legal for street use everywhere, either.

--Rob

Originally posted by mj
just because it is a cast piece doesnt mean it is cast iron does it?
I thought that was brought up in another thread on a similar subject, welding suspension brackets on the centre section?
as it takes about 15minutes to become a certified vehicle inspector I never take their word as to what is "legal" or correct.
Superlift sells a ton of Superrunner steering kits for ford TTB trucks, all welded together

http://www.superlift.com/gifs/6-3.GIF

A little clarification,

Yes, I should have specified cast iron, not just "cast" as you are correct casting is a process not a material.

And it is the material that is important, not the process so much. You can weld cast steel no problem.

o tell what your knuckle is, try the grinder test. Hit it with a grinder, if sparks are dull orange, appear forked, and few in number it is cast iron or grey iron or the like - not to be welded, certainly not to mild steel.

If the sparks are small, bright yellow, and many it is likely steel.

The welds between axle tubes and center sections are not designed to joint the 2 parts. Think of them as "plugs" to stop the pressed in tube from spinning or pulling out.

As for "links" welded to center sections - there are many diffs that are not steel and not cast, but are actually "nodular iron" - so named for the carbon content being in a "nodular" rather than flake form...blah blah blah - nobody wants a chemistry lesson from me.

Anyway - long story short, the reason cast iron to steel is such a no no is basically the different "ductility" of the materials (related to their carbon content) whish is to say - they expand, contract, and melt at vastly different rates at different temps. Cast iron is not good for anything other than staying in the shape it is cast - that's precisely the reason it's used in many applications. It is not very ductile. The mild steel, on the other hand is much more ductile and will expand and contract more readily. Now, hit the joint between 2 with a 3000*F arc, and they will boh expand and contract - but the steel much more quickly. The cast iron cannot "keep up" and it cracks. The effect can be lessened with a high nickel content rod, pre-heat and post heat, and stress relieving.....but NOT for a structural application. At least not the kind we're talking about in the steering of a vehicle. Even if the weld "looks good" it isn't - you should AT LEAST have it xrayed and magnafluxed, and even then - the physics dictate it is an unwise choice and a poor design - and just to save a few bucks? Not cool.

Let's face it, it is the most critical system in the vehicle - not the place to getit wrong. Do it right.

ian - I have asked my friend your question and will post his reply when he gets back to me.

Bill,
Glad you came in to clarify the cast steel thing
cuase I was having a heartattack thinking that you might think that that was cast iron! It is in fact cast steel or maybe but unlikely be forged. I firmly belive that these parts can be welded with out failure BUT strict adherence to preheat & interpass temperature is critical.
I just had to make a pitnman arm for my toy using a IFS spline with a saginaw end, this little project (just welding both together) has taken atleast six hours , and I'm still not completely done!!! WHY well becuase to keep interpass temps within spec 150F-350F each pass (so far 12 GTAW root & some fill & 7018 covers) takes awhile make that a long while that little arm stays hot as hell for about 20 min between passes.
Anyhow like you know ALWAYS be sure what the F^*k you're welding , and that you know what you're doing.
weldpro;)

I've got pretty much the same setup on my front jeep axle with a pitman arm welded w/a real thick gusset. I understand what everyone is saying, but frankly, it's survived a heavier vehicle on the rubicon, and I don't have the cash to fit it right. I bought this from a previous owner, and he got the axle with the hi steer mod already on there. This thread has been very enlightening though, thanks.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=177789

You guys got me nervous... I talked to my fabricator about this and he swears he's been doing them for 10 years, more than 500 of them, and one has never failed.

So of course he is against redoing the job with a bolt on arm. He also says he has seen bolt on arms fail and then they bolt and weld the arm the second time around.

What about the Toy crossover arm mod? I have seen serveral people (Myself included) with 2 arms welded together and then bolted on the knuckle. I can tell you for certain that I have been the crap out of my steering (yes on purpose) and it has held up great. Granted it is bolted on the knuckle but the arm where the drag link bolts on is held on solely by welds (Very good welds) but still.

Anything can fail on the highway or bombing down a dirt road. Hell atleast he is using TRE instead of hiem joints and we don't have to argue about that. :flipoff2: :D

ran the same setup on my toy and broke the steering studs off but never the arm forged steel is good to go if you know how to weld.

Hey weldpro....Hi...sorry about the shocker...hope yer ticker is alright!

Yea - I have no idea what those particualr parts are, without testing them, and kinda assumed when folks said cast, they meant cast/gray/whit/ductile IRON not steel.

Cast steel - no probs If you know what you're doing (like Weldpro does) You can't just fire up Granpa's buzz box and have at 'er!

For JeepinIan, here's your answer:

paraphrased

"They're most likely cast steel. Cat is the largest single user of steel castings in the US (possibly the world). Most are steel castings because they need to be welded. They used to build the 5130's in Joliet (moved that stuff back to Decatur, IL a year ago). My boss was the metallurgist for that area. I mentioned that an iron foundry was trying to convince me we could weld ductile iron in sturctural applications and his exact words were something like "there's no way in hell I'm going to let that happen while I'm here". As far as the little Tonka sized things (301.5), they are designed and built in Japan. I'm not sure what they do on those, but I seriously doubt they are welding ductile in a structural applications. The normal sized excavators are designed in Japan too and built in several location including Aurora, IL. I know the booms on those are steel castings from Attica, Indiana (The Badlands Off-road Park is right behind the foundry). I personally know of only 1 application where we weld iron to steel. It's actually ductile to stainless. It goes into a very large natural gas engine (the MaK one they converted to gas which is about 20% larger than a 3616--I believe they called it a G32 or something like that, when I was working on it, they hadn't decided on a name) and only needs to keep engine coolant from entering the the combustion prechamber (so we're basically using it as a seal, actually it was a new design because the metal seals kept leaking). The weld is also under compression at all times. Even in this case it is a laser weld that is done in tightly controlled conditions.

In short, don't weld iron castings for structural applications."

He really is a neat guy to talk to !!! And like I said, knows his poop

:rasta: :smokin: :D

You can make the EB Ford knuckles work for bolt on. Got my setup on my web page. http://members.home.net/stevenjmeyer1/jeep

--Steve

FOUND THIS THREAD IT'S WHAT i WAS LOOKING FOR. THANKS GUYS, Jake