On/off-road which spring setup is the best? And why?

coil springs, just because

What type of on/off road you thinking about? What type of rigs ya thinking? Come awnn, throw us fricking bone...

Just a general question. I wanted to get some opinions from some hardcore off-road wheelers. I want know which suspension can be made to be the best on/off-roading.(no trailer rigs) And why they would choose either a leaf setup or coil. Just for grins lets say money is no object here.

LEAFS!!!! There just better :D Besides coils come on TJ's :barf: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by ClownBallz
Just a general question. .....Just for grins lets say money is no object here.

money is no object? then just buy an assassin...

Originally posted by Rockbuggy
LEAFS!!!! There just better :D Besides coils come on TJ's :barf: :flipoff2:

You have to like that technical answer. :flipoff2: Did you mean "They're just better" ?? No wonder you drive a YJ.

Time for some rounds not [] |||| [] :barf: (O||||O) :p

I'd like to hear someone to answer that has some real knowledge os suspension. Anyone? :confused:

It all depends on what day of the week it is:flipoff2: . But honestly its all a matter of personal preference. Leafs will be cheaper but most likely you will get more flex out of the coils. Leaf springs are very simple and if set up rite, can give you plenty of flex, I am happy with my leafs at this point because im not ready to tackle the link suspension thats required with the coils. Later down the road if I can get more time and a lott more $$$$$ then I would love to go to coils or coil overs:usa:

Each is going to have their plusses and minuses....there is really no set answer.

Personally, I like my leaf spring packs. They eliminate any need for links, simple to install, simple to repair/replace in the field. They are harder to tune to vehicle weight tho...I run a 9 leaf pack in front and an 8 leaf in rear. Articulation is great, but a well designed coil setup will beat it. On road, it could use a sway bar, but is acceptable.

Coils have the disadvantage of more initial design work, in linkage arrangements. They will generally offer a smoother on-road ride and a flexier offroad ride. Disadvantage is cost, since the links plus the coils tends to add up. Also, may be tougher to repair on the trails, especially with "custom" setups. Another offroad advantage is departure/approach angles dont have leaf packs sticking in the way.

Honestly, I think it boils down to personal preference...I might do a coil setup in the future, but for now I'm quite pleased with my leaf spring performance.

Money's no object? Neither. Air over hydraulic all the way, baby! (Actually not that hard/difficult).

--Rob

to be honest, coils aren't all that hard to set up.......you just have to look at the right parts to use.

leafs are easier to setup, cheaper to maintain, easier to trail fix.....

coils give a much better frontal breakover and CAN provide a better breakover behind the front axle. (if anyone tries to dispute this...look at the cover jeep of the nov. JP)
coils can and usually do provide a better on road ride...but that all depends on spring rate and the angles on the control arms.

assuming that they are both properly set up coils will provide a better ride, more flex, better breakover, etc......but there are a lot of varaibles involved. If you are more specific I could give a better answer.....


btw........with all the coil conversion talk in here I am REALLY surprised that no one has mentioned the front ca's from the toyota fj80. This is what I plan to use on my custom setup this
summer.....I wonder why no one else is looking into them? is there something I'm missing here?

edit: finally fopund a pic of the ca's I'm talking about. top is replacement high clearance, bottom is factory.
<img src=http://www.sleeoffroad.com/products/images/outback/front_arms_1.jpg>

one mount at the frame and 2 at the axle allows for a 2 link setup to control caster, placement, and limit axle roll. am I missing something or is this almost the ideal setup?

I'd have to vote for coils. Of course, this is slightly biased because I drive rigs with 4-wheel coils. But as an enginer, I like the link-type suspension better. It's much more interesting! :D Actually, It seems to me that coils allow for better control of the axle movement, a better ride, and they last longer if set up right.

Leafs are easier to put in, cheaper, don't have as much associated hardware, and are simpler to repair: Just replace the offending leaf.

Overall, I think they can both be made to produce a similar result, but I think coils are much more durable. The simplest reason for this is that the coils only have to compress and extend. Leafs have to locate the axle, compress, extend, and twist. This fatigues the steel a whole lot faster.

Of course, that's for the standard semi-elliptical set-up. If you go with 1/4 elliptical, you get basically the same set-up as coils. Links locating the axle, and the spring only provides up-and-down compression and extension.

For one example: Land Rover trashed their simple leaf-spring setup in the early 80s. At the time, most enthusiasts swore they would not run the coilers. However, after being proven all over the world to be able to take the beating expedition trucks get and run in the Camel Trophy, most guys either have coils or want them.

-John

HEY Rover A you need a photo!

coilovers

http://www.swayaway.com/Images/RR%20Shock.jpg
Here...these are better.

Torsen Bars beat leafs and coils hands down...:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Toyota_Jim
Torsen Bars beat leafs and coils hands down...:flipoff2:
Very true...

Originally posted by ClownBallz


You have to like that technical answer. :flipoff2: Did you mean "They're just better" ?? No wonder you drive a YJ.

Time for some rounds not [] |||| [] :barf: (O||||O) :p

I'd like to hear someone to answer that has some real knowledge os suspension. Anyone? :confused:


listen up newbie, you can kiss my fawkin ass http://home.off-road.com/~rockbuggy/moon.gif And also you can take your round TJ headlights and shove them up your round ass fawker!! :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by mkbruin
to be honest, coils aren't all that hard to set up.......you just have to look at the right parts to use.

leafs are easier to setup, cheaper to maintain, easier to trail fix.....

coils give a much better frontal breakover and CAN provide a better breakover behind the front axle. (if anyone tries to dispute this...look at the cover jeep of the nov. JP)
coils can and usually do provide a better on road ride...but that all depends on spring rate and the angles on the control arms.

assuming that they are both properly set up coils will provide a better ride, more flex, better breakover, etc......but there are a lot of varaibles involved. If you are more specific I could give a better answer.....


btw........with all the coil conversion talk in here I am REALLY surprised that no one has mentioned the front ca's from the toyota fj80. This is what I plan to use on my custom setup this
summer.....I wonder why no one else is looking into them? is there something I'm missing here?

edit: finally fopund a pic of the ca's I'm talking about. top is replacement high clearance, bottom is factory.
<img src=http://www.sleeoffroad.com/products/images/outback/front_arms_1.jpg>

one mount at the frame and 2 at the axle allows for a 2 link setup to control caster, placement, and limit axle roll. am I missing something or is this almost the ideal setup?

One thing about these is that similar to the Ford C-bushing setup or whatever its called (edit- "radius arms"), as the axle twists, these type of links bind up and fight each other and kind of act as an anti-sway bar.

One solution might be to mount one link w/ both bolts at the axle, and the link on the other side with just one bolt so that it could pivot and not bind. But then you only have one link doing all the axle roll-control...

Check out this Ford page to see what I'm talking about w/ both those last ideas:
http://w3.one.net/~marc/broncohio/tech/fourlink.html


The FJ80 links also mount under the axle which is bad for ground clearance, but I'm sure you could mount them on top if you wanted. Plus that would give some extra lift...

Originally posted by ClownBallz


You have to like that technical answer. :flipoff2: Did you mean "They're just better" ?? No wonder you drive a YJ.

Time for some rounds not [] |||| [] :barf: (O||||O) :p

I'd like to hear someone to answer that has some real knowledge os suspension. Anyone? :confused:
Ok, well... here we go:)
Leafs.
Why? you see that pic posted up there a ways of what looks like a rover? it looks to me that the coil is unseating. Leafs don't do that. How many options do you have with coils? not many.. 3 link 4 link....
How many with leafs?
SOA
SUA
1/4 eliptical
3/4 eliptical
full eliptical
seems like a lot more options, and you can tweak leafs to give you a bit more flex and a smoother ride. such as opening spring clamps, teflon between the pads, and many other little tricks. Hows that for technical? :flipoff2:

By the way.. only pansies complain about how bad a leaf spring ride is.. so get over that issue real quick :flipoff2:

Erick B just 3 link the frt

Originally posted by 1badjeep

Hows that for technical? :flipoff2:



Not very....Truly spoken like a guy who's convinced himself that his leaves are the way to go :flipoff2:

Hey Welby :flipoff2: I didnt have to convince myself... :D Its actually a matter of money, at least it was when I bought my rig. And now that I have it, Id rather have my pro comp 4" leaves than a TJ any day of the year! :flipoff2: How you doing today?
Scott

Heh, now that I'm back in the montly payment pit, I wish I had my YJ back :(
Oh well :D

Originally posted by Welby1220
Heh, now that I'm back in the montly payment pit, I wish I had my YJ back :(
Oh well :D
Heh.. Thats another reason Im glad I have the yj. No payments :)
Scott :grinpimp:<><

Is this 4x4 discussion or Jeeper whinning page???:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by 1badjeep

Ok, well... here we go:)
Leafs.
Why? you see that pic posted up there a ways of what looks like a rover? it looks to me that the coil is unseating. Leafs don't do that. How many options do you have with coils?

RE lift kits front springs have unseated from the upper mount as the axle droops, allowing the vehicle to remain stable. This feature can be equated to a buggy leaf spring setup where the spring drops away from the frame during extreme articulation. I don't think this is a bad thing. Why are you worried about options when you only need one to work? And mentioned before what about departure/approach angles with leaf packs sticking in the way? I'm not saying leafs are total crap but I see you throw in a comment about rather having a YJ...than a TJ. This is not about the model you own. :flipoff2: This is about which performs better all around. I don't care about cost. :flipoff2:

Leafs rule because of their simplicity. No control arms to worry about, and they can be made to flex very well. Hard to break and easy to fix. I prefer leafs, but I have coils on the rear and leafs on the front of my trailer queen.

Originally posted by 1badjeep


Why? you see that pic posted up there a ways of what looks like a rover? it looks to me that the coil is unseating. Leafs don't do that.

Look there is a cone that will guide the coil back in to place. Your right leafs can't flex like that!

yea it's a LR Discovery

Originally posted by ErikB


One thing about these is that similar to the Ford C-bushing setup or whatever its called (edit- "radius arms"), as the axle twists, these type of links bind up and fight each other and kind of act as an anti-sway bar.

One solution might be to mount one link w/ both bolts at the axle, and the link on the other side with just one bolt so that it could pivot and not bind. But then you only have one link doing all the axle roll-control...

The FJ80 links also mount under the axle which is bad for ground clearance, but I'm sure you could mount them on top if you wanted. Plus that would give some extra lift...

Well with the stock control arms on an FJ-80 axle (bottom arm in picture) the flex is all in the bushings. WIth the one in the top picture made by Outback Suspensions the control arms pivot in the middle eliminating the "bind" that you refer to.

Advantage of stock: those things are literally steel I beams and WILL NOT BREAK. They are rated for 20x the crush weight of the FZJ-80 which is a heavy, heavy truck.

Advantage Outback arms: Center Pivot eliminates binding, custom application available for correct caster.

I have owned the Outback arms and they are the HIGHEST quality.

That said, I LOVED my Coil sprung Land Cruiser and I love my leaf sprung Land Cruiser.

If I was building from scratch, it would be coil-overs.

OHH YEA They stuff real well too

Originally posted by wngrog

Advantage of stock: those things are literally steel I beams and WILL NOT BREAK. They are rated for 20x

They better not break at 960.00 for the pair!!!! Who ever said Rover stuff was big $$ never looked at Toy stuff.

I have only found one place anywhere selling those outback arms.....for a touch under $1,000....yes...one thousand dollars for those arms. I am thinking that you could have a pair made for half that.........

how much did you pay for yours and where did you get them from? the only place I've found so far is Slee offroad based out of golden Colo.

20X was the stock arms...they are the "I" beams.

The new Outback arms are Cromoly Tubes, strong and SUPER heavy. I bet mine weighed 45 lbs each.

No Sleeoffroad.com is the exclusive dealer for these.

Yes, mine cost $960 for the pair. Ouch.

Originally posted by 1badjeep

Heh.. Thats another reason Im glad I have the yj. No payments :)
Scott :grinpimp:<>< i got a tj with no payments :flipoff2:

I do prefer my coils retained top and bottom, but I currently have dropout cones on the rear of the D110. This pic is with it not even all the way dropped out!-- Left Rear tire..

And jeez, those yota arms look a whole lot like the stock rover ones! interesting.

Some guys put a hinge in those arms on one side of the truck. Similar to that ford set-up you were talking about. Pinned, they're solid and limit the articulation, but unpinned, they flex like crazy!

I'm a fan of the 3-link myself though. That's what is on my D90.

oh yeah, and if you do 1/4 elliptical, I've seen those unseat. You ever heard Lance's rig when it's articulating? Thuddadadada... flapping spring. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but it's a cool noise!

-John

the original question was are coils or leafs better for on/ offroad performance, with money as no object. The answer to that question is coils are better. Typical leaf spring suspensions rely on leaf springs to both locate the axle and provide the flexibility. It would be a pretty good trick to do both extremely well. but it is possible to use leaf springs solely for the purpose of providing the spring, using links to locate the axle. This could be done with 1/4 eliptic or dual shackles, and is done in racing classes that require the rear leaves. Even in this case a coil spring is a better setup because it can be lighter for the same wheel travel and spring rate and is also usually easier to package for the purposes of ground clearance.

But in reality money is an object and leafs do a decent job of locating the axle in many cases, especially if you add a axle wrap prevention device. If cost and ease of fabrication are a major design consideration then leafs have to be seriously considered.

hmmmmmmm.....can you show some pics of the factory rover ca's? I have never really thought to look.


btw....d110's are on my dream car list....one of the first cars to buy when I win lotto or powerball.

On the D110, keep looking! Yes, the 1993 NAS models are friggin expensive, but there are a few gray market late 80s D110s that are in the US. I've seen these go for around $20k or even a little less. Also, there are some rebuilds running around from guys like East Coast Rover that are really trick. Of course you could build your own if you so desire. All the parts are available in the US, you just have to put them together on a series title.

-John

hmmmmmmm, I am actually looking to peice together something for my daiyl driver/trail rig this summer. e-mail me with details please!

mklotz@msn.com

Originally posted by mkbruin
hmmmmmmm.....can you show some pics of the factory rover ca's? I have never really thought to look.


Top is a stock Rover arm with Old Man Emu castor bushings.

The lower is a RTE castor corrected arm with stock bushings.

leafs:

cheaper
harder to break
can flex really well but i mean come on just lock the bitch up and no worries even when coils are at that maximum flex point they lack pressure to the ground to move the vehicle anyway
easier to fix
easier to fix on trail
no links to bang up cause links are easier to mangle when hit than leaf packs
easier to tune i.e. add leafs, take away leafs w/ coils u basically have to buy a new coil
long leafs springs flex like a bastard
simplicity!! that's what i want on something i'm beating on!

Skyjacked ToY

leaf springs are more$$ .

My Scout lift kit was $550 for four leaf springs and my Rover lift coils were only $225 for four on them! I got 4" out of both of them!

Originally posted by skyjackedtoy
leafs:

cheaper

yup, can't deny that.
harder to break

nope, coils last longer and are more durable. when is that last time you heard of someone breaking a coil?.

can flex really well but i mean come on just lock the bitch up and
no worries even when coils are at that maximum flex point they lack pressure to the ground to move the vehicle anyway

more flex = less lifting a tire = more ground contact.

easier to fix

you have to replace the leaves, no fix.

easier to fix on trail

ditto.

no links to bang up cause links are easier to mangle when hit than leaf packs

I've seen lots of mangled leaf packs.

easier to tune i.e. add leafs, take away leafs w/ coils u basically have to buy a new coil

You ever heard of spacers?

long leafs springs flex like a bastard

Long coils!!
simplicity!! that's what i want on something i'm beating on!

ok, so coils transmit the weight of the rig, links locate the axle. sounds pretty simple to me. Better than using one thin piece of metal to locate the axle and transmit the weight of the body.

Coils are cheaper than good leaf springs... The expensive part is the rod-ends (that you *should* be using) for the control arms!

Squash

Coils are cheaper. My coils cost me 1/3 of what my leafs did. Coils are stronger. How many coils have you seen that have snapped?

Looks to me coils are the way to go :)

I will admit that for the ultimate in flexibility both in adjustments and in articulation, the best thing right now is coilovers. They are adjustable, compact, and offer outrageous flex.

Maybe the D90 will get them someday!!
:D :D

-John

Originally posted by Rover Addiction
I do prefer my coils retained top and bottom, but I currently have dropout cones on the rear of the D110. This pic is with it not even all the way dropped out!-- Left Rear tire..

And jeez, those yota arms look a whole lot like the stock rover ones! interesting.

Some guys put a hinge in those arms on one side of the truck. Similar to that ford set-up you were talking about. Pinned, they're solid and limit the articulation, but unpinned, they flex like crazy!

I'm a fan of the 3-link myself though. That's what is on my D90.

oh yeah, and if you do 1/4 elliptical, I've seen those unseat. You ever heard Lance's rig when it's articulating? Thuddadadada... flapping spring. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but it's a cool noise!

-John

Hey man! I smoked a ... with a cute little 20 year old in that rig! Then she "just had to change into her bikini" :smokin: Ahhhhh...Memories! :roxy: Betcha' didn't need to know that didya' Addict! :D Nice flex btw!:flipoff2:

--D

Originally posted by RockRover


Hey man! I smoked a ... with a cute little 20 year old in that rig! Then she "just had to change into her bikini" :smokin: Ahhhhh...Memories! :roxy: Betcha' didn't need to know that didya' Addict! :D Nice flex btw!:flipoff2:

--D

Ok, now I'm jealous! You lucky bastard!

Originally posted by Rover Addiction


harder to break

nope, coils last longer and are more durable. when is that last time you heard of someone breaking a coil?.

when i say coil i mean the entire setup.. links, ends, everything etc.. links are much easier to mangle than leafs.. more crap involved w/ 'em too..



can flex really well but i mean come on just lock the bitch up and
no worries even when coils are at that maximum flex point they lack pressure to the ground to move the vehicle anyway

more flex = less lifting a tire = more ground contact.

yea, but the way to fix lifting a tire is to lock the bastard.. and lots of flex is nice.. but the last few inches of droop w/ coils or leafs lack enough ground contact to move the vehicle.. locker needed either way.. flex is something you want, but i find it a bit over rated.. u can end up w/ too much so there's a compromise in there..




easier to fix

you have to replace the leaves, no fix.

easier to fix on trail

ditto.

they can be patched.. and if you wanna be fuckin w/ your links on the trail instead be my guest..




no links to bang up cause links are easier to mangle when hit than leaf packs

I've seen lots of mangled leaf packs.

i've seen more mangled links..



easier to tune i.e. add leafs, take away leafs w/ coils u basically have to buy a new coil

You ever heard of spacers?

hell yea i have jackass.. i run 'em.. but they do nothing for the spring rate or flex.. it's just like making your coil perch taller.. spacers are lift only, they don't "tune" your coil.. sheesh..


long leafs springs flex like a bastard

Long coils!!

i'm just saying leaf springs can flex as much as you need..



simplicity!! that's what i want on something i'm beating on!

ok, so coils transmit the weight of the rig, links locate the axle. sounds pretty simple to me. Better than using one thin piece of metal to locate the axle and transmit the weight of the body.

if that's what u think, go right ahead.. u're kidding yourself.. and leaf springs aren't one thin piece of metal, they're a few put together which greatly increases their strength over "one thin piece"


bite me




:flipoff2: :flipoff2: when i say coil i mean the entire setup.. links, ends, everything etc.. links are much easier to mangle than leafs.. more crap involved w/ 'em too..

Originally posted by wngrog
Well with the stock control arms on an FJ-80 axle (bottom arm in picture) the flex is all in the bushings. WIth the one in the top picture made by Outback Suspensions the control arms pivot in the middle eliminating the "bind" that you refer to.



You're talking about a pivot in that area under the boot?

If so, that's not where the bind I'm referring to occurs. The bind I'm talking about is in the TWO attachment points at the axle... 2 links links w/ the 2 attachment points, equals bind.

Eliminating one of the attatchment points on one of the links would eliminate the bind I'm talking about. This would be similar in execution as the Ford setup I mentioned in my other post...

Originally posted by skyjackedtoy
a whole bunch of jumbled shit

Dude it is almost impossible to tell which are quote from others and which is your new text.

Its all about what you have to start with. Stick with it if it works but . . .

How many have you converted your coil sprung truck to leaf?

A lot

Vice versa.

Anyone . . . anyone

Coils win based on that for sure. Their problems can be overcome if you are smart about the design, mainly making sure you have bulletproof links which on a rover requires about $225 for the rears as the fronts don't break/bend. :nuke:

Ron

Originally posted by Paul Gagnon


Dude it is almost impossible to tell which are quote from others and which is your new text.


everything is spaced into sections that have 3 different breaks.. those sections of text are separated by a large space.. so each section of broken text works like this.. the first part is my original post, then a space and the reply, then a space and my last comment.. then a lot of spaces and it starts over.. dude it may look jumbled but it's readable.. i don't have but so much time and patience to play w/ this..

Originally posted by ErikB
Eliminating one of the attatchment points on one of the links would eliminate the bind I'm talking about. This would be similar in execution as the Ford setup I mentioned in my other post...

Here's an example- "Wristed" Radius Arm (another Ford site)

http://www.wt4wheeling.com/tech/wristfront.htm