OK, let me start off by saying that I am a "newbie", so please be bear with me and excuse my ignorance if you can......

A colleague of mine recently took me along on one of his offroad adventure weekends and I have to say I think I'm hooked. What great fun!

I was all set to buy an offroad vehicle like his. He has one of those Hummer H2. But I've been doing alot of research online before I buy and saw all of the posts at the H2 Source forum and ran across the information at hummerlemon.com, so now I'm rethinking my decision about buying the Hummer and decided to come to a forum where you all are the experts in a field that I am not.

So, as a new offroader, I wanted to ask what your opinion is on what would be a good "starter" vehicle? Please keep in mind that I am not an expert, I work on hearts not vehicles, I am just getting started, have alot to learn, and want the most bang for my buck. Any opinions and advice would be most appreciated!

Thanks, Jack

Well, most of the guys on here are pretty hard core, and a good source for information. I would expect the thought of an H2 is gonna rattle some chains... most guys sill conside the H@ a pretty boy plastic bling hummer.
I think you could end up with a far more capable rig, for a lot less cash if you built it... but if you're in the heart business and not the wrench business... who knows. Depends on what you like.

i would suggest a Jeep Rubicon ... but i will probably get flamed for that too...
With that package you get a new jeep... dana 44's up front and back... selectable lockers back and front, and the jeep 4.0L engine... Not nearly as pricey as a H2... and probably go jsut as far...
Of course... add a lift to it... tires... some bumpers and a winch...

I have no experience with them though, it's just what i have read... and maybe a suggestion for you to look into if you don't feel like doing a lot of expensive customizable wrenching.

will this be your only vehicle, or just one on the side to have fun in?

No, I still have my regular vehicle for every day and "The Hospital Commute". This is just something that I think is a great pastime, so I want to buy a one just for this...learning how to have fun off roading. With everything I've been reading in the past few days, I kind of thought that the Hummer H2 might be a sore subject with some. But what I really want is just a good vehicle to begin with, just of those good starter vehicles. I figure that I can always move up as my skills and knowledge improves.

Here are some factors to consider for your purchase (in no particular order):

1. Are you willing to accept some rock-rash on the sheet metal of a $50k vehicle? How about a 25k vehicle or a 10k?

2. Do you plan on doing any modifications to make it more capable? Such as a moderate lift, larger tires, winch, rock protection, dual transfer cases, etc.

3. What kind of offroading are you going to do? Rocks, sand, mud?

Just a quick brainstorm...

If it were me, I would go with a Jeep Rubicon as well. Throw a moderate lift, some larger tires, a winch and some protection...

If you are gonna drop 50K for a new H2 that money could buy you a much more capable rig. I would just buy a good basic 4x4 like a old toy, early bronco, older jeep, etc and if you can't do the work yourself just take it to a good shop and have them make it a capable rig. You will probably be out a lot less then 50K and it will perform a lot better then an H2

get a Jeep Rubicon, find a reputable shop and have them throw a 2" coil spacer spacer lift on it and some skid plates and rocker guards, get some get some 31-32 inch Swampers (since it's not a daily driver), get a winch and winch bumper.

wheel it

decide where it is lacking

upgrade

wheel some more

Welcome. :)

You are in the right place, and have a lot of reading ahead.

Here is a recent thread: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=190654

Essentially there are three schools of thought:

1. Purchase a small, light vehicle. Break and replace the drivetrain with heavier-duty components one part at a time. Shred body on rocks, replace with tube.

2. Obtain a big heavy-duty vehicle, like pre-'89 K30 as BadDog suggested in the other thread, or the M880 I'm working on. Already comes with relatively bulletproof drivetrain (for stock vehicle). Modify as desired ( http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=187592 ; http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=178722 ) and/or replace with tube.

3. Start with tube and add drivetrain of your choice; or buy completed buggy.

Everyone is probably in some phase of one of these three approaches, and may have been through the others also (some more than once).

In your position I would be inclined to start with #3 - IF you're willing to accept a generally non-streetable ride and the need for a tow rig/trailer. You can purchase a full-on turnkey comp buggy for a lot less than an H2, or something recreational for a lot less. Look at the Hendrix X chassis, http://www.hendrixmotorsports.com/_wsn/page2.html and ask Air Ride on this board - camo is building one. Check out Avalance Engineering - http://www.avalancheengineering.com . Eric Filar (Fat City) built some real art, but couldn't make enough money to stay in business. :( (Search for threads on JR's Bronco.) Get a ride or three in some real built rigs and see what you like and don't like.

Option 3 has the advantages of getting you into high-end equipment immediately; no screwing around, no wasting time and money making the same mistakes everyone else has. I believe it's possible to learn from others' experiences :p. Options 1 and 2 take work, and are probably more expensive in the long run - especially if you have limited time of your own to spend in R&D and fabrication. In recommending #3 I am assuming that you know what you're getting into, and will continue to enjoy the sport.

On 1, the Rubicon is an attractive option; rather spendy for most of the Jeepers here, but less than some of the high-dollar competition rigs - has the benefit of a streetable title. A Samurai has lots of potential. Solid-axle toyota pickups are always popular, and there are lots of good examples on this site. I used to run a CJ-5 and probably still would if we hadn't built a house a couple of years ago.

On 2, that's where I am now.

Read all you can, and ask lots of questions. Do what suits YOU.

First of all, I would like to thank all of you for your responses and advice. I've been doing alot of research over the past week and the more I read, the more I realize how MUCH there is I don't know. I almost feel like I'm back in med school. I can tell you just about everything there is to know about heart valves, but automotive valves are still somewhat of a mystery to me. So, I truly admire all of you who have so much knowledge in this area.

I think I might have misunderstood what a "daily driver" is. My commuter vehicle can't tow, so at least at first I'll probably have to think about going with something that is "streetable" (I think that's the right word) so I can drive it on the roads to and from. And since I'm just a beginner and my skill level is still so lacking, probably a good used vehicle so I won't feel so bad when I beat it up, which I almost assuredly will.

Thanks again everyone, my hat's off to you! And who knows maybe I'll meet some of you out there one day...I would probably be that guy that's stuck :eek:

I hope you don't mind if I come around every now and then to ask more dumb questions...Jack

SAMURAI


Cheep, easy to fix, Parts availability, If you like it and want to go bigger you can get your money out of it easy when you sell it.

First off, where are you? This is kind of important, as it will decide your regular types of trails, and some vehicles just ain't cut out for some trails.
Second, what do you want to spend (just cause your a heart surgeon doesn't mean you want to waste money...)

You want something first that is available, has a good resale value when you decide to change, and is mechanically stout so you're not spending valuable weekends fixing things.
You also want something that is reasonably capable out-of-the-box, so you can get on the trail and learning faster (you'll enjoy the hobby more). Any of these options below clocks in at under $4000 after the vehicle, basic lift, tires, and recovery equipment (the MOST importnant thing you can have).

There are a few options (these also depend on your personal preference):
Small wheelers...
Any Toyota truck/4runner from 1980-1995. 1980-1989 is best for the 4Runners.
Any Jeep. Especially the "classic" Jeeps, the CJ/YJ/TJ, otherwise known is the Wranglers.
Suzuki Samuri, from the 80s.
Big wheelers:
Broncos, blazers, domestic pickups from the 80s.

Any of these are cheap to get, cheap to fix, and can be lifted 2 inches or so cheaply (less than $200). Put some decent 32 inch tires on any of them and have fun. All have potential to be built indefinitely as time goes on, or sold if you find something else on the trail that you like. All will take an H2 and smack it like a red-headed stepchild :D

Also, you'll have to learn how to turn your own wrenches eventually. But, in the beginning, take it to an off-road shop for basic stuff, but try to look over their shoulder and ask too many questions. The quickest way to get in trouble on the trail is have your shop-mounted parts break, and you have no clue what/why/how.

Here is a great rig to start on :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31849&item=2442480197
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31849&item=2441937427
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31849&item=2442002370
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31849&item=2441550204
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31849&item=2440850372
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31849&item=2441515560
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31849&item=2441682006
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31849&item=2441728149
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31849&item=2441186791
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31849&item=2442016089

I agree with old scout. Get a Defender 90, toss in the Range Rover 4.6 liter, put a couple inches of lift on it, add some 35" tires, a locker or two and hit it...

Here's my 2 cents worth, separated into cost:

I would get a 1998 -2000 Jeep TJ Wrangler, with the 6 cylinder, your choice of tranny (auto or stick) and the D44 rear axle. You should be able to find one under $10k. The inline 6 is an excellent engine, and if treated right, will last a couple hundred thousand miles. You can take the top down for fun spring/summer/fall driving. They are small, you can park anywhere. Get a 2" budget boost lift ($200 with shocks) and some 31" MTRs or BFG MTs and go wheeling. No need to worry if you scratch it. One heck of a nice daily driver/trail vehicle. I drive my 92 YJ everyday and I love it.

If you want to afford it (I am not going to say if you can, because I would imagine that you certainly could) a $25k, then go with a 2003/2004 Jeep Rubicon. Again, one heck of a nice daily driver/trail vehicle.

I think it kind of boils down to what you want out of the vehicle. The cheaper vehicle leaves lots of room to play and decide what modifications you would like to do to your jeep. You can build it to fit your specifications. The Rubicon is nice, but you may not need D44's front and rear, and ARBs. Good luck with it!

Hey I was in your same shoes about a year ago. I got my dad (I'm 18 now) to buy me a 98 Wrangler SE (4 banger). I added 31" BFG MT and a 2" spacer lift and was AMAZED at what that little Jeep could do. It could do anything that this Ford Bronco with 38"s and a 12" lift could do except go through deep mud (hey it's a 4 cylinder!)

If I was in your shoes I would go out and buy a 98-2003 Wrangler (they haven't changed at all since then) with the Dana 44 axle in the rear and the strong 4.0 in it. I would then put another Dana 44 on the front and put some air lockers on the front and back. A nice package would be some 33"s BFG MT's if it's a DD or some Super Swampers if not. I'd put a 4.5" lift on it from Rubicon Express as well. Rubicon is definitly the best lift package out on the market for TJ's. Also if you have the money regear it to get better low end. I'd also invest in some body armor and a cage since I almost flipped mine about 3 times and left some big rock damage. The Wrangler is far and away the best vehicle out there for riding trails and going through rocks.

This package will probably run you around 15-19K but that saves you about 7K from buying the Rubicon and this is better equipped as well.

Unless you plan on going through a lot of mud, I'd shy away from the big Bronc's and Blazers. In SE TN where we live the trails are mostly just steep hills and rock juts so a Wrangler is made for that type of stuff.

best bang for your buck??? Wanna spank the everliving HELL outtah yer buddys hummer? Wanna park on TOP of it??

click my sig. ;)

Go 'yota and never look back!! :flipoff2: With some time and work they can be pretty kick ass rigs. Look for a '85 P/U or 4Runner. Buying one stock should only cost you around $3000.

If its not gonna be a DD, go all out:

4"-5" lift (suspension!!)
complete undercarriage rock guards
selectable lockers (go ARB if u have the $$$, e-locker if not)
35" - 38.5" Swampers
lower gears (5.29) in the axles
if u stay single t-case, put 5.0:1 gears in it
again, if u have the $$$, put in a dual case setup
nice 8000 to 9000 lbs winch (i recommend Warn....)
upgrade the axles to be a little stronger (crommoly inners, longfields, etc.)

you will find so much information on this board, it will boggle
your mind. This place is the place to find help. Be sure to search before you ask a Q tho! :flipoff2:

i'd have to agree with everyone else, the Rubicon is amazing, my friend has one, its got a 4" lift and 35's, does awesome, its already got the nice dana 44's, selectable lockers.. its just awesome, but like they said r u gonna be ok when u bash it against a rock or a tree? he paid about 30K for his, u'd pay the same probably..

well good luck in whatever u buy

TOYOTA - They're cheap and go great without a lot of expensive modifications, but if you get one with IFS, figure in the cost of a straight axle swap. (You will definately want it)

what kind of axles does a defender 90 use? corporate? dana?

I third (or fourth or whatever) the Toyota thing. Last year at this time I really didn't have a clue about these things, but DAMN! Those little boogers are tough as nails, parts are easy to get, and there are some people here that know these things inside ond out, so you won't be hurting for tech help at all! If you have a family, the 4runner is the way to go, otherwise maybe a pickup is fine.

What you are going to find is that everyone has their favorites. Like Paz said, it also depends on what type of trails they have where you are. Out here the skinny ones seem to have an easier time on the rocky narrow trails, some places v8's dominate. Jeeps are also a good start. I'd reccomend a Wrangler over a Cherokee though. They just seem to be a bit tougher out of the box. Early broncos are also a very cool, and capable choice, but the price is a bit higher than a toyota, etc. Whatever way you go, just enjoy being out there and have fun.

BTW, let me say I applaud your attitude. We need more newbies with a good open mind on here rather than some of the ones that just want to argue. Kudos to you for actually listening to advice.

Originally posted by 281 Quad Cam
what kind of axles does a defender 90 use? corporate? dana?

Land Rover corporate! FF rear comes stock and Birfs in front.

Hi Jack,

In my honest opinion, if you have about $0-25K cash, and tyhsi will be your first rig, Look for a used TJ rubicon, since it comes pretty much ready from factory with everything you will need to get started. Lockers, low ratio, etc. Thsi woudl be a great wheeling start. Honestly nogthing against the H2's, but they are really sucky for average wheeling, unless your wheeling is through some dirt roads or very moderate type of stuff.

Get a used Rubicon, install a Rubicon express or rockcrawler kit (another $800-2000, depending on what you want on the lift), some 35 inch tires, and you cna play in most areas where the ig dogs play.

Good luck and welcome to a greta new addiction!

Gui

Don't go too big at first. 33" tires MAX. Even that is pushing it.

The reason I say that is because a really well setup rig is going to get you in over your head really quick. Especially if it's locked front and rear, you'll easily be able to drive into situations that are very dangerous. Also, bigger tires and lockers and rough terrain are more likely to break something.

Start with 31s and a rear locker. You'll be able to keep up with H2s no problem :laughing:

FIND A NEARBY CLUB. Preferable a "family oriented" club, not a bunch of drunken rednecks.

If you put your location in your profile it'd help us.

ALWAYS KEEP YOUR THUMBS OUTSIDE THE WHEEL. Don't want to break your income :)

I vote for the Rubicon. I have one and it does absolutely great right out of the box. It already has the 31's on it. I have other rides that I use to do really hardcore stuff and right now the rubicon is my "car" but I have tried it out very well. I just don't want to dent the body just yet. In my opinion the rubicon or at the very least the later model jeep would be the way to go for reliability and out of the box wheelability. From what I am seeing you are not really the wrenching type, or at least haven't been up until now, (although I am sure you could pick it up easily), with the jeeps you just don't have to do any work to them and with the rubicon you can do anything the H2 can plus some or just put a 2"spacer on it and 33's and do plenty more and still drive it to the trail. As a recent testament, the Ultimate Adventure in one of the 4wheel and offroad magazines does all hardcore trails and drives the rigs to them every year well this year there were two rubicons that went that were basicly stock other than a lift and 35's or 37's and those are the toughest trails out there. Buying a used rubicon is even better because they have come down in price very fast. I love mine and I just wish I could afford to wheel it a whole lot more than I do, but I have to get to work in it. This is just my .02c and as you can see below I have tried a few different types of vehicles.

Well this almost seems like a test for flaming the newbie ?
Ok since you say your a DR lets start with that, are you good or are you still practicing? LOL
You probably won't be doing much work on it (can't have a DR with dirty nails) so keep it main stream with aftermarket bolt on galore, buy a jeep (a few years old). Do some mild mods, wheel it and make sure you like wheeling and if so then you will know what you need, for what you are doing. Experience will point you to what is rite, it could even be the Jeep but if not it's an inexpensive way in if you don't destroy it you can sell it and start the finance of the next machine.
PS an idea of where you are at is a good hint for the type of wheeling you will most likely be doing, that's a decent starting point for what machine to get.

Jack, looks like you are getting a lot of good feedback here, just wanted to add mine. In the past 15 years, I've had 2 D90 (Land Rover Defender 90), LR Discoveries, 1 RangeRover, 2 Tacomas, and a few jeeps (YJ, TJ, WJ), and a FJ (Land Cruiser). This can almost be a religious discussion, as people can be very particular about their choice of truck/Jeep.

You need to get out there and wheel whatever you decide to get, this will either confirm that you really want to invest (burn) money on something extremely capable, or will dictate that a stock something will work for you.

That said, get a TJ (Jeep Wrangler) and wheel it stock. You may never have to do anything to it, and of you decide to, you will find easy ways to improve on it.

I don't think you mentioned the price range you are looking to spend on a rig..but if you want to upstage your buddy with the H2, you should look at on of these..Unimog U500
www.unimogtrucks.com
I actually don't know how well they wheel....but it can't be any worse than an H2...plus you can get a HIAB! (among other cool accessories)

I think I'll have to put my vote in for the Rubicon as well.
IMO its probably the best rig to start with with fewest hassles (especially if $50K is sittin' around to be spent, you'll have plenty left over, too :D ).
Two lockers and a creeper lowrange gear already takes care of much of the major upgrades that would otherwise be needed on a lesser model. Throw another $2500 on a good suspension kit and some 33" tall tires for it and you'll have far more capability than that H2 thing (hell, eve stock the Rubicon will go farther).
With it being new, you shouldn't have to worry too much about mechanical problems when you're out in the middle of nowhere where AAA doesn't go.

All the H2 is is a slightly modified Chevy Suburban chassis with a different body, really nothing special. It bears no resemblence beyond appearance to the real Hummer that the military uses. Its weight, along with the independent frontend is its biggest demise. Somewhere there recently was a video that made its way across the internet where a H2 busted its frontend driving over a little rocky (gravely?) spot that even a stock Tacoma or Ranger pickup could easily handle.

Do you want something large to haul the family and the dog around in?

Are you alone and just wanting to get out on the trails with a new group of people?

How agressive is your driving style on the road... do you like lots of power?.. or do you just put around and get from A to B?

Do you like a nimble little sports car or a 77 Caddy Eldorado?

How much $$ are you willing to initially sacrifice?

Do you want to learn to drive first (recommended), or want a rig that will drive the trails for you?

Are you mechanically inclined? If not do you want to learn? Are you willing to do much of the work/buildup/planning yourself?...

.... Just a few points to consider which will help us steer you in the right direction....

I'd go yota but I'm biased. Check the "vehicles for sale" section on this board for anything from stock to fully built rigs. And run circles around your friends (Yukon) H2, I mean Hummer H2.

Get a Jeep Rubicon. They are very capable. (better than a H2):flipoff2:

I will side with the Rubicon if you have the cash flow and a warn winch. The Rubicon can get you to fun places and unless you want to go play with the big boys you can run it relatively stock at first while you are learning to wheel.

Originally posted by VT_Toy
Don't go too big at first. 33" tires MAX. Even that is pushing it.

The reason I say that is because a really well setup rig is going to get you in over your head really quick. Especially if it's locked front and rear, you'll easily be able to drive into situations that are very dangerous. Also, bigger tires and lockers and rough terrain are more likely to break something.

Start with 31s and a rear locker. You'll be able to keep up with H2s no problem :laughing:

FIND A NEARBY CLUB. Preferable a "family oriented" club, not a bunch of drunken rednecks.

If you put your location in your profile it'd help us.

ALWAYS KEEP YOUR THUMBS OUTSIDE THE WHEEL. Don't want to break your income :)

I would have to agree with this the most. I don't think that the Rubicon is the thing to go right off the bat. Experience is the key in this sport isn't it?

Get an old Yj or Yota and lift it a little. put some 31s or 33s max on it. wheel it with open differentials so you learn why you need lockers front and rear.

Get the seat time under your belt and learn all you can.

Join a club and just talk to people. pick their brains. THis information will be invaluable. then move on to bigger meats, double t-cases and lockers. THis is one sport that it's hard to jump right in with both feet and expect to keep your head up. Like Surgury there is alot of learning time before you can become great at what you do.

my 0.02

Q

Ok, this is probably more than you want, but let me jump in and give you a thought or two.

First of all, I will tell you the assumptions I am making for you:

First...price is not really a factor since you are thinking about an H2.

Second...cool IS A FACTOR and you know what, that isn't a bad thing, we all secretly think our rigs are cool...

Third...you do want something that will perform well offroad and do NOT want to wrench on it much yourself.

Ok...here is what I would do in your situation!

Buy either a Jeep Rubicon, or if you want to spend a bit more $$ upfront and have something really unique, buy one of these guys Jeep Wrangler conversions! http://www.aev-conversions.com/ (AEV-conversions) They build a really nice rig and it will go probably every place you would want to take it.

If you want to have more control of the process, just buy a Jeep Rubicon and come back here and find a local 4x4 shop to put a lift on for you.

Add a Rubicon Express 5.5" Long Arm suspension lift kit, some 35" tires (your choice...) on some nice rims, and put on an ARB front and rear bumper with a Warn 9500 thermometric winch on the front. There are a few other misc goodies but that will get you a REALLY TOUGH vehicle and you are looking at 35k or so in cost!!!

That also gets you a brand new vehicle you can drive to the trail without breakdown worries, something clean, sharp, good looking, convertible (or hardtop option), and the other Doctors are gonna be SEROIUSLY jealous of you! Finally...you will be able to go ANYWHERE your buddy does....unless he is gonzo Pirate4x4 buggy kinda crazy, heh!

I hope that helps, I would be happy to email with you directly if you want any more thoughts, good luck and see you on the trail!

Sam Hinton, Jr.

good thing u posted in the newie section!!!

get a TJ


welcome biotch:flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Everyone is pointing at the Rubicon. It is a great Jeep but there are variables to consider.

Do you want to go rockcrawling? If so the Rubicon is a good choice.

Do you want to explore the desert, possibly at high speed? An H2 will wup a Rubicon in the desert, and a lot more comfortably too. A TRD Tacoma is a great choice in the desert.

Do you like exploring logging roads, dirt road and forest trails. A Rubicon or a TRW Tacoma will do just fine for this.

If you like the dunes...H2 or Tacoma.

I shouldn't forget Grand Cherokee's, Range Rovers and Toyota's current Landcruiser. Each one is extremely refined on and off road as well as very capable. Great for exploring in a less than "Xtreme, Hardcore" ways. Also they make nice daily rides.

Each one of these vehicles will perform acceptably in most areas. Each one has its own strengths and weaknesses, as well as its own character. Look at what the places you might go to are and what the people there drive. Don't worry too much about getting it right the first time. They can all be sold, exchanged or upgraded.

I'd go with a Toyota, boy I miss my Yota's