Just heard from a friend that the Helldorado trails, and perhaps some of Strike Ravine trail may be closed. Seems the land they were on was sold to a new owner. Rumor has it signs closing the area are already posted.

-Wayne

Hmmm, must be a brand new thing. I was there a month ago, no signs on lower, upper, or the creekbed. Can anyone confirm this? :confused:

Got the word from a wheeler that lives in Moab, and is a member of Red Rock 4 Wheelers.

I posted hoping this was not true. Anyone else know anything?

-Wayne

p.s. Anyone know anything about Johnson Canyon in Death Valley? It used to connect to Panamint City.

I had some friends that ran them this past weekend, didn't mention anything, although anything is possible.

Im so sick of trails being closed in Moab, fawkin hippies.....

i know this is old news, but has anyone confirmed that Poison Spider was closed off at some point early in the trail?

Ryan

People were saying the same chit when we were there about a month ago. Only then, the story was that the BLM closed them.

Our group ran upper and lower that week, and didn't see anything.

BLM's nationalstanding on washes is IF it is a wash it can be used for a trail, If it is now under private ownership, that would suck! I ran lower two years ago, was hoping to do upper in april

I just posted a Thread in the Land Use Forum... Helldorado Trail Closures. (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=192225)

Originally posted by YeeP
i know this is old news, but has anyone confirmed that Poison Spider was closed off at some point early in the trail?


I think this is what you're talking about...

Eairler this year, illegal bypasses were roped off on Poision Spoder Mesa. Sadly, most people that saw the closed bypasses thought they were a joke and coninued to use the bypasses, instead of the original trail.

Poision Spider Mesa still opened.

Poison Spider is still open, some of the optional lines are off-limits now. Please respect the closures or the whole trail is no doubt next

is "rusty nail" an "alternate bypass"?

Originally posted by Greg@RME


I think this is what you're talking about...

Eairler this year, illegal bypasses were roped off on Poision Spoder Mesa. Sadly, most people that saw the closed bypasses thought they were a joke and coninued to use the bypasses, instead of the original trail.

Poision Spider Mesa still opened.

They are not marked very offical-like, just some spray paint on the rocks. Because there were no offical BLM markers, we also thought it was the hippies.

Originally posted by JiveTurkey
They are not marked very offical-like, just some spray paint on the rocks. Because there were no offical BLM markers, we also thought it was the hippies.

Yeah, that's what I heard. If the bypasses are going to be closed, everyone that runs the trails need to know what a closure looks like.

Spray paint on rocks isn't very official looking.... :rolleyes:

at the risk of being flamed as a hippie, why not just observe the closures? if they are not across a main trail, at least? make them happy, and keep our trails. piss them off, and fight a battle we ARE going to lose.

ever seen a sierra club or greenspease fundraiser on the east coast? MILLIONS of dollars are raised by going door to door asking "donate to save our wilderness"?

as an off road community, we are loud as fawk, but spend very little money comparitively, and the whole "donate to save our off road playgrounds" doesnt fly as well in the urban moneypit.

I was on Helldorado 3 days ago with no signs....:confused:

I ran Poison Spider a month ago. The only closure I remember was the steep rock climb on the right side of the first big sandy wash. It was just painted on the rock, but I thought that climb has always been off limits.

Originally posted by ChrisPy
at the risk of being flamed as a hippie, why not just observe the closures? if they are not across a main trail, at least? make them happy, and keep our trails. piss them off, and fight a battle we ARE going to lose.

ever seen a sierra club or greenspease fundraiser on the east coast? MILLIONS of dollars are raised by going door to door asking "donate to save our wilderness"?

as an off road community, we are loud as fawk, but spend very little money comparitively, and the whole "donate to save our off road playgrounds" doesnt fly as well in the urban moneypit.

why would we think you're a hippie for following the rules? If everyone did and respected the land we probably wouldn't even have this thread...


From what I hear on the Moab issue, it was purchased by a private individual, and he closed it. Its his property now (if this is true) and he can do as he chooses.

Why doesn't everyone observe the closure if it is in fact true, and focus your energy on saving the rest of the trails that are on public land and currently open.


:usa:

ChrisPy,

Please dont think that I was implying that I think it is OK to take those illegal bypasses. I never have and dont plan on it. I am just tired of trails being roped off.

One thing about the bypasses, On trails in Moab like Pritchett Canyon, in the past 3 or 4 years people have made a "bypass" more like alternate route to two of the main obstacles, Rocker Knocker and Rock Pile. My approach toward this is, yes they are cool obstacles, but they are not part of the orriginal trail as I knew it . So I choose not to take them, to try and stick to the original trail.

So lets say Mr. newjeeper, decides to run pritchett, and I am behind him. He takes the "optional route" at Rocker Knocker, which I know is not part of the original trail. When he drives on it, am I going to be upset? Sure, it is sad to see this stuff happen, who knows when the next route will be made..... But should I go up and talk to him?? Tell him that he is not on the original trail? Maybe, maybe not.... Maybe I should wait untill the BLM takes action because people were going "off the trail"... Then Mr. newjeeper will be pissed because they took away his favorite part of the trail..... It is definatley a vicious circle.

I am definatley not perfect, I have run Hell's Gate on Hell's Revenge, and I have done the Escalator, which is not part of Hell's Revenge....

Either way it is a tough choice to make. For all I know the original hells revenge trail did not even include "Micks' Hole", that obstacle supposedly got its name because Dan Mick was the first one out of it, they wouldnt make a trail without being able to complete it.... Anyway, hope you get my point, if there is one :D


Ryan

I jsut got through turnig in a couple of Bozo's in a ford tearing up the countryside, took pics and turned em into the FS along with a signed statement as to what I saw,

From what I gather these two have done this before and got away, not his time they didn't fined and their vehicle has been confiscated



HOOOORAAAHHHHHH:flipoff2:

Originally posted by 1cdub
I was on Helldorado 3 days ago with no signs....:confused:


If this is true then thank goodness, lower is by far my favorite Moab trail and I plan on attempting upper soon too.

Originally posted by Slowerthanu



If this is true then thank goodness, lower is by far my favorite Moab trail and I plan on attempting upper soon too.

Lower is a dirt road. Upper is a lot more fun.

-Wayne

Originally posted by ChrisPy
at the risk of being flamed as a hippie, why not just observe the closures? if they are not across a main trail, at least? make them happy, and keep our trails. piss them off, and fight a battle we ARE going to lose.

ever seen a sierra club or greenspease fundraiser on the east coast? MILLIONS of dollars are raised by going door to door asking "donate to save our wilderness"?

as an off road community, we are loud as fawk, but spend very little money comparitively, and the whole "donate to save our off road playgrounds" doesnt fly as well in the urban moneypit.


Rotozuk--sorry for the thread hi-jacking.

The optional line closures on Poison Spider ( the steep hill at the top of the switchbacks, and the little bump to the left of wedgie ) are marked with spray paint, with no BLM signs near. Just spray paint on the sandstone that says something like "route closed", I don't remember the exact wording. Now who's to know that any ole asshat ( hippie, mountian biker, hiker, etc. ) just didn't go out there and paint it on there? I will and do respect any and all BLM and private owner trail closures, but this one leaves some open questions as to whom exactly closed these optional lines.

Originally posted by JiveTurkey


They are not marked very offical-like, just some spray paint on the rocks.


I'ts O.K. to Spray paint ( Vandalize ) the rocks, but not leave a little tire Rubber on them ? Isn't that a little hippocritical ?? :)

Originally posted by YeeP


So lets say Mr. newjeeper, decides to run pritchett, and I am behind him. He takes the "optional route" at Rocker Knocker, which I know is not part of the original trail. When he drives on it, am I going to be upset? Sure, it is sad to see this stuff happen, who knows when the next route will be made..... But should I go up and talk to him?? Tell him that he is not on the original trail? Maybe, maybe not.... Maybe I should wait untill the BLM takes action because people were going "off the trail"... Then Mr. newjeeper will be pissed because they took away his favorite part of the trail..... It is definatley a vicious circle.

Ryan

As a newjeeper, I can say that if I'm on an unfamiliar trail and I unknowingly go someplace I shouldn't, I'd like to be nicely told about it. As an example, I've only seen pics of the Rubicon but it seems like its sometimes hard to tell where the trail is unless you know where you're going. Some people wouldn't care but I'd like to think most 'wheelers that would like to enjoy this hobby for years to come wouldn't intentionally do anything that may jeapordize continued access to any currently available trails or future potential trail openings.

Originally posted by tv_larsen
I ran Poison Spider a month ago. The only closure I remember was the steep rock climb on the right side of the first big sandy wash. It was just painted on the rock, but I thought that climb has always been off limits.

It wasn't 2 years ago..

http://www.abusivemotorsports.com/trails/Moab/031002/pics/Moab52.jpg

Vermin,

That is not the steep climb they are talking about, I think that picture is of the downhill part of the trail, near the begining of Golden Spike, just before "Launching Pad", you go downhill, hit that sand, then go up another hill and reach the obstacle. The pic you gave looks like that downhill previous to the downhill for the launching pad.

I think the one they are talking about is right before the obstacle on Poison Spider called the "Water fall", just before you enter the little canyon for that obstacle, there is a very steep, long climb to the right, I think this is the obstacle that is being discussed. Also on the actual obstacle "Water Fall" after you do the inital climb and take the tight left, there is an "optional obstacle" directly in front of you, insad of turning left to continue on the obstacle, Im not sure if this has been marked as closed or not...

Ryan

Well, back to the issue and away from all the bullshit bickering. These pics were taken just after 11am 11/9/03. I guess you'll have to trust me that they're not photochopped, and yes, I do know where Lower Helldo is. This is the Lower Helldo entrance:

http://www.superford.org/getfile.php?id=93362

http://www.superford.org/getfile.php?id=93363

Please tell me upper is not closed:crybaby2:

didn't get to finish the trail last year and want to run it again!

Damn that sucks....... :(

Ryan

:(

Thanks for the photos. I was really hoping someone was going to come up with some info stating that the trail was open.

-Wayne

Someone, can't remember who, pointed out that this might just be some kind of ploy to keep people out.

I'd say let's wait to see what Mick has to say and what he might have found out from the local police and/or BLM office.

Someone could actually call the Moab Field Office of the BLM and find out tomorrow if they were so inclined.

Here's hopin' it's open.

:(

Some one should talk some sence into this new owner.. I don't know about anybody else but I'd pay money to run it..Even if it was like $20


$20+10 rigs= $200 a day easy + or - how many rigs. of coarse in the sue happy world of ours we'd prob need to sign a wavier, which is fine.

Well to start....

We need to hear back from the RR4W but this could turn into a very ugly situation...

We didn't lose just one trail... most likely 3, Upper, Lower and Strike Ravine.

It is possible the RS2477 comes into play here... as far as I know, Strike Ravine is a historic road that had 10 years of use prior to 1976 (the year RS2477 was appealed)...

Stay tuned for more on the situation...
http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/landuse_helldorado.html

Top.

What about the road that joined Upper and Lower, and tied back into Strike Ravine at the top of the hill? Would it be subject to the same rules? If you consider that it's continuous all the way back to the base of Lower, it's actually a pretty sizeable bit of road.

Originally posted by JiveTurkey



Rotozuk--sorry for the thread hi-jacking.

The optional line closures on Poison Spider ( the steep hill at the top of the switchbacks, and the little bump to the left of wedgie ) are marked with spray paint, with no BLM signs near. Just spray paint on the sandstone that says something like "route closed", I don't remember the exact wording. Now who's to know that any ole asshat ( hippie, mountian biker, hiker, etc. ) just didn't go out there and paint it on there? I will and do respect any and all BLM and private owner trail closures, but this one leaves some open questions as to whom exactly closed these optional lines.

At EJS this last spring, as we were fixing a grenaded D30 on a friend's Cherokee, we watched a BLM dude in a jeep give someone a ticket as they went up this climb. So I know for a fact, from first-hand experience that this is BLM's doing and they are enforcing it.
Devin

I think this post from RRO on a suzuki list sums it up pretty well: :mad:

----
Bad news for Moab.

Somehow an evironmentalist purchased the property containing Lower
Helldorado, Upper Helldorado, and the entrance to Coyote. These were 3
new trails in Moab that offered some serious fun for serious
rockcrawlers. This woman has now closed these trails forever.

No one is sure how it happened or how it snuck under the radar. The RR4W
were taken by surprise as well as the 'keeper's of the watch for
Southern Utah trails. It is possible old mining claims were involved and
somehow manipulated to allow this. I heard about this at the SEMA show
last week. I was in Moab over the weekend, but did not make a trip out
there to check it out and see what closure signs exist. I did see Kevin
Hawkins (the guy responsible for pretty much every new hardcore trail in
the Moab area), but didn't get a chance to speak to him on this.

This represents a serious change in tactic for Wilderness Nazis.

The Proving Grounds is also being closed due to new home developement in
the area.
----

I had been given a clue that the owner may not be willing to open the area, now I know what he means.

RR4W are looking into options, but I was also told that the RS2477 will not help in this case. (They already looked into that.)

I really think we need to start buying lands like this. I had no idea it was private land. Looking at some of the maps around Moab, this school trusts own a LOT of land in the area. I'm a poor boy, but more then willing to donate some cash to a land fund!

-Wayne

Damn, That is a shame.

Politics!

Originally posted by rotozuk


RR4W are looking into options, but I was also told that the RS2477 will not help in this case. (They already looked into that.)

I really think we need to start buying lands like this. I had no idea it was private land. Looking at some of the maps around Moab, this school trusts own a LOT of land in the area. I'm a poor boy, but more then willing to donate some cash to a land fund!

-Wayne


Established and recorded travel (prior to FLPMA in October 1976, if possible) is required for RS2477 assertion.

If the trail is recorded as a public route of travel before this time frame, it is possible to claim it is a public easement established through common usage regardless of it's status as public or private. RS2477 applies to public and private land.

If a prior owner ever recorded an easement grant to the County (check County title and deed records) then the County Board of Supervisors can claim public right of way demand based on the easement grant. If the new owner wants legal closure the BOS must vote to recind the easement (vote to allow the owner to legally close a public easement granted in the past). This is how the Wildlands Conservancy legally closed Pipes Canyon Road between Big Bear City and Johnson Valley in California: they petitioned San Bernardino County to remove the easement and won legal closure before anyone on the pro-access front learned of their intentions.

Claiming the route is a public easement is easy ( search deed records, claim RS2477 applies, write the local newspapers, write and talk to the County BOS); challenging the closure in Court takes legal funds.

Green enviro's purchasing lands to achieve public access closure is one of the tactical methods to achieve the Wildlands Project. The purchase of private land that border USFS and BLM lands, and erecting closures (legal or not), eliminates access to the approach and the destination routes of travel (the hunting, fishing, and OHV/SLV opportunities accessed through the approach are essentially placed off limits). These Wildlands project activists are smart enough to hire people to map the lands around the public lands and target their purchases (often called GAP analysis, so-called species preservation analysys, performed by local Universities as public grant projects). The folks who have the funds to target lands for purchase also have funds to buy the lands and fight legal challenges.

Case Law needs to be established that preserves public access rights, to make future closure challenges easier. This Case Law is what is missing to resolve the Barking Dog Road dispute and the Surprise Canyon Road closure, and other private and public road closures nationwide.

The resolutions always return to the problem of funds ...

Is USA-ALL working on this closure, along with the RR4W?

Happy Trails!

Originally posted by Ed A. Stevens
Established and recorded travel (prior to FLPMA in October 1976, if possible) is required for RS2477 assertion.

Both Upper & Lower Helldorado used to be uranium mine access roads.... back in the 1940's. The roads washed out over the years. Phil Howell was checking some old maps with the mining roads on them & found that potential trails existed. 2 of the best trails were born & were considered legal roads, according to the fact that they had been established many years ago.

HTH

More info and map of affected area on the site...
http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/landuse_helldorado.html

I have been on the phone for the last few hours with various party's invloved... have owners name and will be contacting them soon. I have also forwarded all I know on the the USA-ALL to see what they know.. stay tuned

Originally posted by cruiseroutfit
More info and map of affected area on the site...
http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/landuse_helldorado.html

I have been on the phone for the last few hours with various party's invloved... have owners name and will be contacting them soon. I have also forwarded all I know on the the USA-ALL to see what they know.. stay tuned


Awsome Kurt, thanks for keeping us up to date.

:beer:

Man, this is a huge hit to wheelin. And I've never been out there. :mad:

Kurt,

Thank you for your time on this. It seems that the other side always seems to be more funded and more system savvy than those of us interested in actual freedom. I think it might be time to put together a closure defense fund. It makes me sick to lose this trail. They know what is important to us, we need to hit back at these nuts. I hope someone with a legal background can tell us where to send our checks.

Originally posted by Buckon37s
I think it might be time to put together a closure defense fund.

I hope someone with a legal background can tell us where to send our checks.

Give what you can to USA-ALL, I do

http://www.usa-all.com/

Buckon37s, www.sharetrails.org is probably the best place to start sendin those checks. Hopefully we can get this all straightened out and be able to run these trails again. I really liked Strike Ravine, and never got the opportunity to run either of the helldorados, and was hoping to do so this May. I sure hope I can :(

Dallas

Thank you, thats good information.

Does Utah have any kind of "default" public right of way law?

In many states, if the public can traverse a section of private property for 365 days in a row, it becomes a public easement.

Originally posted by rotozuk


Lower is a dirt road. Upper is a lot more fun.

-Wayne
lower used to be fun, 5 years ago, and even upper now has a bypass arround the first obsticle :mad:

so have they thougth that if they close the trails we'll make more, if they leave them allone, we may not?:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Greg@RME


I think this is what you're talking about...

Eairler this year, illegal bypasses were roped off on Poision Spoder Mesa. Sadly, most people that saw the closed bypasses thought they were a joke and coninued to use the bypasses, instead of the original trail.

Poision Spider Mesa still opened.

THE BLM closed those bypasses, we are the ones that ignored them.
they spray painted with fawking SPRAY paint on teh rocks..talk about defacing public property.

those as with the helldorado's are legal public easments on public or TO public land and cannot be closed.

if anyone goes to helldorado and the signs are still up call the san juan county sheriff and wait for him.. he will promptly come and take the signs down.

the number is (435) 587 2377

Oh yeah! That's what I'm talkin' 'bout.

Nice footwork MoabAustin.

I'll file that phone number away for sure.

Now, does that mean that they plan to plow the snow on UH this winter?

:D

Originally posted by Moab Austin


if anyone goes to helldorado and the signs are still up call the san juan county sheriff and wait for him.. he will promptly come and take the signs down.

the number is (435) 587 2377 I just want to be clear Austin. Did the Sherrif say this himself? I will be there turkey day, and I am hoping to run these if they are open.

Originally posted by Moab Austin


THE BLM closed those bypasses, we are the ones that ignored them.
they spray painted with fawking SPRAY paint on teh rocks..talk about defacing public property.

those as with the helldorado's are legal public easments on public or TO public land and cannot be closed.

if anyone goes to helldorado and the signs are still up call the san juan county sheriff and wait for him.. he will promptly come and take the signs down.

the number is (435) 587 2377



Austin, I totally agree that Spray Paint the rocks on Poision Spider Mesa is the lamest attempt ever to mark a bypass as closed. (Gotta hand it to government employees, spray painting Rock.... :rolleyes: ) I'm sure there were many people that just ignored the paint. No offence intended, I'm just trying to get the point across that when the BLM marks bypasses as closed it needs to look official.

BTW, it's nice to have someone in Moab helping the rest of us out with the hometown information. Thanks a ton. Lets hope we do still have access to these trails.

Originally posted by Moab Austin


THE BLM closed those bypasses, we are the ones that ignored them.
they spray painted with fawking SPRAY paint on teh rocks..talk about defacing public property.

those as with the helldorado's are legal public easments on public or TO public land and cannot be closed.

if anyone goes to helldorado and the signs are still up call the san juan county sheriff and wait for him.. he will promptly come and take the signs down.

the number is (435) 587 2377

Thanks Moab Austin, I sure hope this is true (not calling you a LIAR at all). I haven't gotten out to MOAB yet, but hope to in 2005. THANKS:D

Originally posted by YeeP
Vermin,

That is not the steep climb they are talking about, I think that picture is of the downhill part of the trail, near the begining of Golden Spike, just before "Launching Pad", you go downhill, hit that sand, then go up another hill and reach the obstacle. The pic you gave looks like that downhill previous to the downhill for the launching pad.

I think the one they are talking about is right before the obstacle on Poison Spider called the "Water fall", just before you enter the little canyon for that obstacle, there is a very steep, long climb to the right, I think this is the obstacle that is being discussed. Also on the actual obstacle "Water Fall" after you do the inital climb and take the tight left, there is an "optional obstacle" directly in front of you, insad of turning left to continue on the obstacle, Im not sure if this has been marked as closed or not...

Ryan

Nope, your wrong, YeeP. That is at the beginning of Poison Spider Mesa. The sandy part of the wash where you haul ass up the the first trail plug... that is the 'right' side of the loop... most people go up on the 'left' side.. cross over up top and come down there. Last year both sides were spray painted... so, glad I got to play around on them when I did.

I hope this closure BS is just that... even is some greenie hippy purchased the land and puts up signs.. people are still going to run it. Not saying it's right.. but they won't be able to keep the entire 4x4 community off those trails.. some 4x4 guys just don't care. All this will do is push the community to find new 'hard core' trails in the area.. although it will be a shame if these are indeed private now.. it won't be long before the guys in Moab find us some new trails.. the Helldorado's were getting pretty paved anyways :D

Originally posted by Vermin


Nope, your wrong, YeeP. That is at the beginning of Poison Spider Mesa. The sandy part of the wash where you haul ass up the the first trail plug... that is the 'right' side of the loop... most people go up on the 'left' side.. cross over up top and come down there. Last year both sides were spray painted... so, glad I got to play around on them when I did.

I hope this closure BS is just that... even is some greenie hippy purchased the land and puts up signs.. people are still going to run it. Not saying it's right.. but they won't be able to keep the entire 4x4 community off those trails.. some 4x4 guys just don't care. All this will do is push the community to find new 'hard core' trails in the area.. although it will be a shame if these are indeed private now.. it won't be long before the guys in Moab find us some new trails.. the Helldorado's were getting pretty paved anyways :D


Sad but true, I know I wont run a trail if it is marked closed or private, it just doesn't seem right to me to break rules like that.

a little background on the sheriff in san juan county...

he has a long history of fighting with the blm and forest service about what are considered "roads"

he has in more or less words repetedly told those two organizations that everything is a road in his county.

san juan county is very much on our side, mostly because they are ranchers, recreationists, hunters, and all very much use the land..

plus their population has pretty much grown up there and has not been infiltrated so much by the "new generation" of the hippocrites that move out of the city and come to moab.

I am sure this helldorado thing will be a long fight, but from my background in Real Estate I think that this is a legal public easement on what is now private land.

tough luck for the new owner I say.

if anyone has information on how I can research teh new owner I would appreciate a PM..

maybe a little legal demonstration is in order

Sounds like the Sheriff is more realistic than most of the hippies that want to close the land. Do we really have to speculate what would happen to Moab's economy should the 4x4 community be forced away from wheeling up there?

Austin, your PM box is full

Kurt Williams I believe knows who the owners are

kurt@cruiseroutfitters.com

HTH

Cody

Originally posted by Vermin
Do we really have to speculate what would happen to Moab's economy should the 4x4 community be forced away from wheeling up there?

I guess they would have to depend on the mountain bikers, hikers, tourists, cliff climbers, boaters, rafters, hunters, history buffs, ranching, rodeo and fishing. Moab is one of those little cities that is blessed with a lot. No doubt the 4x4 folks leave plenty of money in the town, but we are one of many out there.

-Wayne

Just recived an E-mail from a friend in the RR4wheelers they have a meeting tonight and will be discussing this. He said the he will be doing a GPS survey of the area and that they are looking very close at this trail and may have several options. he will keep me informed
Jerry

Yes, a lot of groups use the Moab area, however most merchants in Moab will tell you that we spend the most money. Many of the other groups bring what they need and camp. 4 wheelers eat out more (I mean in resturaunts), shop more, spend more on hotels and improved campgrounds, etc.

As well, If we are blocked/banned so are the Mtn Bikers (mechanized). AND as for private property, trespassing is trespassing be it on foot, bike or vehicle....

The San Juan Sheriff is very cool and friendly to us.

Originally posted by rockteeth
Yes, a lot of groups use the Moab area, however most merchants in Moab will tell you that we spend the most money. Many of the other groups bring what they need and camp. 4 wheelers eat out more (I mean in resturaunts), shop more, spend more on hotels and improved campgrounds, etc.

As well, If we are blocked/banned so are the Mtn Bikers (mechanized). AND as for private property, trespassing is trespassing be it on foot, bike or vehicle....

The San Juan Sheriff is very cool and friendly to us. Well said Marc. Bikes, hikers, climbers, they mostly camp and eat granola bars. How many of us roll into Moab in only a Subie with a tent and a bike on the roof? wheelers bring a whole frikken settlement when they come.

and I could give a fawk about the money (although others rely on it) my line of work is directly related to jeepers but I have other income..

the real deal is that the land is getting taken away.

I donate to blue ribbon and the likes when I can but what we really need is a place to donate money that goes and really fawks with the desision makers at the blm and sierra clubs..

like buy the road in front of their house and pile huge fawking rocks all around their house...then put up a fawking sign


btw the blm guy jeep guy was talking to us today and we were asking about helldorado and saying how it was bs, he said it used to be state land and he didn't care...so then I asked him why the hell he gavce me a ticket on state land early this year:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Vermin
I hope this closure BS is just that... even is some greenie hippy purchased the land and puts up signs.. people are still going to run it. Not saying it's right.. but they won't be able to keep the entire 4x4 community off those trails.. some 4x4 guys just don't care. <edit by TurtleTruck>

The pics at the top of the thread don't show much effort to close the trail, or present a physical barrier... I wonder how long that will last?

I have been lurking on this thread... thanks to all for great info!

I have not run either Helldorado, I hope it gets worked out.

Originally posted by MoabZJ
Austin, your PM box is full

Kurt Williams I believe knows who the owners are

kurt@cruiseroutfitters.com

HTH

Cody

Yes, Moab Austin, if you want to get ahold of me that would be great. I have held off on contacting the new owners for several reasons. First, the RR4W and USA-ALL are working on it. The RR4W are getting it GPS'd and USA-ALL's attorney is working on it as we speak. Both Brian Hawthorne (USA-ALL) and I (U4WDA) talked with officials in San Juan County today, they also seem optimistic in solving the dilema. There are state and federal laws that may come into play.

Stay tuned for more...
http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/landuse_helldorado.html

Spray paint on a rock is so much more environmentally friendly. It's what I, as a naturalist, really want to see to ensure evil 4x4's stay off the rocks.

What a load of crap. Why can't the tree huggers stay back east where everything is already closed off to the public and leave the west to multi use?

I've attended these BLM meetings here in Arizona and have gotten involved locally. It's a losing fight, but one we gotta band together and fight nonetheless. Phoenix recently annexed another 27 sq miles near Table Mesa road, a popular local ORV use area. We lose our trails to yet another subdivision of cookie cutter homes.

It never ends.

Originally posted by Moab Austin
...I donate to blue ribbon and the likes when I can but what we really need is a place to donate money that goes and really fawks with the desision makers at the blm and sierra clubs.....

USA-ALL
http://www.usa-all.com

They are Utah based... hence Utah Shared Access... and have a lawyer that actually takes this stuff to court.

Not affiliated... just a satisfied customer ;)

Originally posted by Moab Austin
...really fawks with the desision makers at the blm and sierra clubs..

like buy the road in front of their house and pile huge fawking rocks all around their house...then put up a fawking sign...

That going to you an I when we go picket the BLM/San Juan County Offices, Sherriff, and hell why not the Governors office too, we'll force them to fix the problem... Then, when we are old and rich.. we buy up everything, turn it into a "wheeling preserve".

hahahaha (evil laugh)

Originally posted by SlamChops
Man, this is a huge hit to wheelin. And I've never been out there. :mad:

Neither have I. and a freind and I will be going cross country to san Diego this summer. We will be stopping and wheeling in Moab for a few days. I had really wanted to run both Helldorados. Damned hippie enviro terrorist fruitcakes. I say we kill em all!!!!!

on a side note we will be taking the Rubicon from lake Tahoe into North Cal:D

Originally posted by D-RAT
It's a losing fight, but one we gotta band together and fight nonetheless.

It never ends.

ya know, thats exactly right. I also ride a motorcycle and am a proud lifetime member of ABATE of California ( www.abate.org ) and our group holds annual rallys at the state capital, we have chapters all over the state, and we are fighting for the rights of bikers all over the state. then there is the AMA, MMA, and others as well. We need a national wheelers organization that can fight to acheive what we want. to stop land closures and maybe even open some lands that have been closed in the past. Why is it that such a group does not yet exist????

Originally posted by 92 Green YJ


ya know, thats exactly right. I also ride a motorcycle and am a proud lifetime member of ABATE of California ( www.abate.org ) and our group holds annual rallys at the state capital, we have chapters all over the state, and we are fighting for the rights of bikers all over the state. then there is the AMA, MMA, and others as well. We need a national wheelers organization that can fight to acheive what we want. to stop land closures and maybe even open some lands that have been closed in the past. Why is it that such a group does not yet exist????

Are you thinking about groups like UFWDA

http://www.ufwda.org/2K/

If your not a member . . . . you should be.

Apparently, Upper Helldorado WAS NOT in this Land Purchase! :eek: :D

I heard this second hand, from Johnny, of Wild Yoats.

Here's the post he put up on RME-

Quoted by WildYoats- Ok, I know there is much talk about this or that regarding these trails.... In a telephone conversation (thanks Chad G.) as of some minutes ago with the Moab BLM, here is what was told:

Lower Helldorado was indeed SOLD one week ago and IS closed off.

Upper Helldorado is still OPEN.

Im just the messenger.......

Originally posted by rcurrier44


Are you thinking about groups like UFWDA

http://www.ufwda.org/2K/

If your not a member . . . . you should be.

I had no idea they existed:eek:
time to sign up:D

Originally posted by 92 Green YJ


Neither have I. and a freind and I will be going cross country to san Diego this summer. We will be stopping and wheeling in Moab for a few days. I had really wanted to run both Helldorados. Damned hippie enviro terrorist fruitcakes. I say we kill em all!!!!!

on a side note we will be taking the Rubicon from lake Tahoe into North Cal:D unless your jeep is set up better than what your sig.line states,it would be better you stay off upper and watch some folks give it a try first.hell the entrance will stop most rigs in it's tracks.but it is a must to go to moab at least 1 time in your life,have fun...

Austin,
If the other larger groups are already working on this, i think it might be wise to get the contact info but not use it just yet in fear of stirring up something that might be already coming to a peaceful solution. If we make too much of a fuss over this, then it could encourage the situation. If we work on finding out what could be a compromise or a legal way to dance with the owner (but not too close) then we would be far better off.

As for the Sheriff there, I had an escort from them last year...a good escort. I was playing to a crowd on Potato Salad and didn't realise how dark it was getting. One of the Sheriffs approached me and asked if I had a trailer to get my rig back to the slickrock campground with. I said...Uh..NO? (worried that he would not be happy with me driving on the street with the RockIt...especially when it has NO lights). He then told me that he would be glad to wait for me to finish playing and would give me a personal escort back to camp so I could be safe driving in the dark...THAT ROCKS!

I hope this gets resolved in a positive way. I've always wanted to run upper.

Thanks again Austin for your help in 2003 keeping the RockIt and CJ alive while we were in town...Austin and Moab OffRoad has always been there for us.

Originally posted by Bill Collins
unless your jeep is set up better than what your sig.line states,it would be better you stay off upper and watch some folks give it a try first.hell the entrance will stop most rigs in it's tracks.but it is a must to go to moab at least 1 time in your life,have fun...

yeah i really need to update that. I have 5"s of lift, 33's, i'll have a lock rite up front soon and a Warn M8000 will be taking up residence on my front bumper soon as well.

Originally posted by: Hickeyjones
Well said Marc. Bikes, hikers, climbers, they mostly camp and eat granola bars. How many of us roll into Moab in only a Subie with a tent and a bike on the roof? wheelers bring a whole frikken settlement when they come.


True, TTORA had a big event in October and we took over the Motel 6 in Moab. That parking lot was full of Tacomas. We even did a little welding in the parking lot! :) As far as money, I spent a lot there on :beer: & food alone.

Ok, fresh info from the man (Jeff S.):

Ber Knight (RR4W Information Officer) and I went out and GPS'd the area this
morning. Most (but not quite all) of Lower Helldorado is within the land
that was purchased. The trail is posted and barricaded at each end. Upper
Helldorado is not affected, and neither is Kane Springs Wash (the wash that
you follow to the entrance of both Lower and Upper Helldorado). Part of the
Strike Ravine EJS trail is also within the purchased area, and one end of
the trail is barricaded and posted. (The Strike Ravine trail is the "road"
that climbs the hill just a few feet to the side of the Lower Helldorado
entrance, and is posted, along with Lower Helldorado, at the turn off from
the Kane Springs Wash.)

If someone could post this on PBB, I'd appreciate it. (I'm just trying to
present accurate information.) For what it's worth, I was elected V.P. of
the club this year, and you can add that if you think it might make it sound
more "official".

I will be talking with our Land Use Officer soon. We will need to contact
the land owner to see if we can work out some sort of agreement to use at
least the Stike Ravine trail for EJS.

Thanks Jeff!

Originally posted by 92 Green YJ


yeah i really need to update that. I have 5"s of lift, 33's, i'll have a lock rite up front soon and a Warn M8000 will be taking up residence on my front bumper soon as well. just wanna pre-warn you that still will not be enough to get you through upper:D

I still think that even though these lands were purchased they still should be open. Like the guy from Moab was saying, these should be considered public roads and shouldn't be closed weather the land they are on is public or private. Even the Sherif thinks so.

My Family owned a bunch of land up in Washington- well still does- and the people who live down the way drive through our property and have been for over 20 years. This land is now considered public land--even though we own it. Basically, we own it, but can't do anything with it because they have an easment which came about from them using the land for an extended period of time--I think 10 years. this is how the trails should be at Moab---but then again, it is Utah.

Also, to the guy that was saying that if things are being handled maybe we shouldn't say anything and see what happens.

Dude, open your eyes. These people purposely paid shit loads of money for land that they will never use and probably never see to close the raods down so people can't have fun! What the Hell?:confused: :mad: Pretty soon they will bebuy up the rest of Moab. These people are sick and twisted. If you think that they are going to just let us use the land and not put up a fight your :smokin: the refer! If you just sit back and watch, pretty soon half of Moab will be owned by tree hugg'n hippies-that's what we call them up north were trees exist:D

Anyway, if you now someone close to this then ride there ass so this doesn't go unquestioned. We need to start buying up some of these land use areas so this shit doesn't happen. That's the only solution! I bet everyone on this Board would donate.

Originally posted by Bill Collins
just wanna pre-warn you that still will not be enough to get you through upper:D

Yea, ya gotta know how to drive!I did it on 31s! :flipoff2: I did use the winch for breakover (high centered) and obviosly the waterfall.

http://www.rpm4x4.com/images/moab2002/heldorado-spike.jpg

Im so glad its still open. Looking forward to returning this year with 35 MTRs.

Mike

Originally posted by rpm4x4


Yea, ya gotta know how to drive!I did it on 31s! :flipoff2: I did use the winch for breakover (high centered) and obviosly the waterfall.

http://www.rpm4x4.com/images/moab2002/heldorado-spike.jpg

Im so glad its still open. Looking forward to returning this year with 35 MTRs.

Mike yea,but you don't have a jeep:D

Updated...

http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/landuse_helldorado.html

Thanks for the update. I should have posted that a while back when Jeff gave me that info. My bad, your good!

-Wayne

Originally posted by cruiseroutfit
Updated...

http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/landuse_helldorado.html


Repost from the link ...

3. The RR4W feel we have a good chance of keeping Strike Ravine open, since it has been
in use for over 10 years. However, we have no evidence that Lower Helldorado was ever a
road, or has been used as a trail for more than 5-6 years, and therefore our chances are
probably slim of saving it. IF ANYONE HAS ANY EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY,
PLEASE CONTACT ME ASAP.

Anyone have an old Topo or other map, or even a printed trail report, that shows Lower Helldorado?

Pre-1976 evidence is ideal (for RS2477 assertion) but documentation reflecting continued use can sway a ruling that the prior owner allowed uninhibited travel to establish a legal easement.

Happy Trails!