Well, after finally getting my aluminum rad to fit in my rad support, I no longer have room for a fan due to the thickness of the rad. I trimmed the shroud on my Taurus fan as much as possible, but it ain't getting in there as a puller, and I highly doubt any other fan will either. With some slight trimming on the grille I can use it as a pusher. It will be wired using a Ford 85-amp continuous-duty solenoid and 8-ga wiring, so it should move some air.

How much efficiency will I lose if I reverse polarity and use it as a pusher? Will I run the risk of overheating? Here's any pertinent specs on the truck:

'77 Traveler, 33x12.5s, 4.09s, T19W, 345 recent rebuild, 4-bbl, new Summit aluminum rad, RobertShaw t-stat, engine oil cooler, hood shimmed open at the rear.

I think under normal circumstances I would have no problems with this combo, but I do also plan to use the truck to tow my wife's Camry 2000 miles with a load of crap in both vehicles (overloaded, yes, but I have a month to make the trip, nice and slow).

Any thoughts? I wish someone made a short-snout water pump. That would make life so much easier.

The nice thing is, with the shroud trimmed, the fan fits the core of the rad almost exactly.

Darel

Last post, last paragraph in this thread (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=187656)

FAWK. Dammit, why can't I just get one damn thing to work correctly and smoothly????

That would take all the fun out building the rig..:D

Seems to me like the hub of the water pump is just there as a mounting location for the mechanical fan. Is there any reason why you couldn't mill the front of the hub off the water pump enough to clear the electric fan motor?

Good thought. I'll see if I have a spare WP lying around to experiment.

Unfortunately it will still take a lot of work, b/c the crank pulley and the PS belt are very, very close...I could waste time milling the WP only to find one of them interferes also, and then I'm SOL.

I tried pulling the fan off the motor and couldn't seem to budge it w/o damaging something. Once you pull the spring clip off, what then comes off with the fan? Is there a metal sleeve on the inside or is it just the plastic that comes off? I'm wondering just how hard it will be to flip that fan over vs. modifying everything else on the front of the motor.

I have also thought about making new rad mounts that move it forward an inch or two, but then the cap is underneath the rad support crossbar (that the hood hinges mount to). That doesn't make much sense.

Do I need to buy a red star to post a pic? Photopost still ain't working.

D

Originally posted by TORC
The 3.8L will not work worth a shit as a pusher. It is designed as a puller. In order to make it a pusher, you'd have to get it run the other direction (easy enough for a DC motor.... reverse the polarity) but the problem lies in the fan blade design. If you look at the profile of one of those S shaped blades you'll see that it's an airfoil. By spinning it backwards, you'd only move a fraction of the air it's designed to. You'd have to also turn the blade over on it's shaft to reverse the airfoil, but the 3.8L fan blade can't be turned over due to the way it's made. If you're going to use a pusher fan, then you need to go get one made for that purpose.

I think Torc has point, but I think there is a good possibility that it will work as a pusher...
The Taurus Fans Crank.
I tested a few 1 speed Taurus Fans (from 3.0 engines) last week.
I reversed the polarity & honestly couldn't tell the difference.
Now, they were not on a radiator, & I couldn't measure actual airflow, but I did watch as a paper 4 feet a way got sucked into the fan while in reverse.

True, pushers aren't as efficient pullers by nature.
However, your talking just about maximum airflow to begin with, so a little loss off that, would still be more than other fans.

I'd recommend mounting it up as a pusher temporarily, run it, but pay CLOSE ATTENTION to the temp.

Now, if you lived in a really, really hot place like Arizona, I'd be extra carefull...;)

The later model taurus has 2 smaller fans. IIRC one of the fans is 2 sp and the other 1 sp. Maybe 2 fans may be the way to go. Also Snoopy posted recently about using 2 fans from a contour, but I think it was on a 4 cyl. If you are at the boneyard a lot of Mercedes and Beemers as well as a few high end Jap cars have some beefy looking pushers.

Actually I have both fans. I bought the dual by mistake, then bought the single. There is no way the dual fan is getting in my Socut either as a pusher or a puller, it is over 5" deep and that depth is spread over a much larger surface area. In fact I'd be wasting most of the airflow because a good bit of fan blade extends outsid ethe rad core no matter how it's mounted.
Darel

Originally posted by Darel
Actually I have both fans. I bought the dual by mistake, then bought the single. There is no way the dual fan is getting in my Socut either as a pusher or a puller, it is over 5" deep and that depth is spread over a much larger surface area. In fact I'd be wasting most of the airflow because a good bit of fan blade extends outsid ethe rad core no matter how it's mounted.
Darel

Hmmm. The taurus duals that I saw had shallow pancake motors and IIRC they didn't really have a 1 piece shroud that held both fans. The taurus model that I "think" that I am refering to isn't all that common where I shop. I am going to hit a few yards on Tuesday and will see if I can get a pic

If i had my red star I could post a pic of mine...:mad:

email it to me and I'll post it for you.

You could post the pictures to the M4x4A site and link 'em, too, Darel.

I hope you have better luck with the Taurus while towing than I did...

Oh, yeah, forgot about M4x4.

Here is a pic of the space I am working with. Please note the oil cooler can go anywhere and does not contribute to my troubles.
http://www.m4x4a.org/ImageGallery/album16/11140001_G.jpg

The fans I bought thinking they were Taurus fans that would kick ass if they would fit anything other than a Loadstar:
http://www.m4x4a.org/ImageGallery/album16/dualfan.sized.jpg

And finally a gratuitous Traveler-as-of-Saturday-with-my-T19W-finally-in-and-working picture:
http://www.m4x4a.org/ImageGallery/album16/11140003_G.sized.jpg

Whew! hope that works. That post took me half an hour to put together.

D

Just realized after looking that picture is kinda misleading. While I could redo the radiator mounts to move it forward, you can't tell from the angle of the picture that the front is flush with the rad crossmember and moving the radiator forward puts the cap under the crossmember.
I am, however, thinking comapred to the other pains in the ass everything would be, this might be the way to go.

D

Originally posted by Darel


http://www.m4x4a.org/ImageGallery/album16/dualfan.sized.jpg



Nice toes :flipoff2:

Could you move the radiator towards the engine and put the fan on the front side? Or is there still no room?

That is a possibility but I'd like to use the 3.8L Taurus fan I have (not pictured) since I've already gone and cut the shroud up pretty nice and would never be able to re-sell it.
Besides, that fan (the one not pictured) already fits behind the grille w/o moving anything.
Either way I'm still stuck w/a pusher, which I'd rather not have to resort to.
Thanks!
D

what about a fixed mechanical fan??? From the pic, looks like you have plenty of room....



traditional more efficiant than an electric as well.... and fool proof....

Originally posted by RustoleumWhite
what about a fixed mechanical fan??? From the pic, looks like you have plenty of room....



traditional more efficiant than an electric as well.... and fool proof....

I've had better luck cooling while towing with the mechanicals. They've been reliable (other than that one fan that I threw through my radiator...)..

Originally posted by tsm1mt


I've had better luck cooling while towing with the mechanicals. They've been reliable (other than that one fan that I threw through my radiator...)..

ditto

Iv seen tons of people fawk with electric fans, and over heat, go threw 100s or relays and other parts when ther old school mechanical worked fine :rolleyes:

but nope they half to have the newest and coolest mod :rolleyes:

Electrics aren't about the newest and coolest. The fact is if you do any wheeling that involves water, you won't get very far without a fan you can turn off at will. At best it'll spray your ignition and stall you out, at worst you'll have a nice fresh hole right through the center of your radiator.
When it comes down to it I'll take slow-going-to-keep-it-cool over giant-hole-in-the-center-of-the-radiator any day of the week.

Darel

I guess I need to go to GF to go wheelin' more often.. I've never been on a trail in MT that involved water more than hub-deep. :-(

OTOH, I've churned 5k through the big water hole in Lolo without holin' the radiator.. I DID gulp a lot of water down the intake though. :(

I learned to just ease into and THEN use more stupid foot.

Originally posted by Darel
Electrics aren't about the newest and coolest. The fact is if you do any wheeling that involves water, you won't get very far without a fan you can turn off at will. At best it'll spray your ignition and stall you out, at worst you'll have a nice fresh hole right through the center of your radiator.
When it comes down to it I'll take slow-going-to-keep-it-cool over giant-hole-in-the-center-of-the-radiator any day of the week.

Darel

I'll buy that... but how often are wheeling in water more than 33"+ deep??


I've wheeled in some pretty good water/much holes.... but rarley do I go above, or hit a trail deeper than the floor boards. I also have a clutched fan which helps.


Go slow and you should be OK even with a fixed... just avoid the "flex" fans ;)



just playing devils advocet and offering choises/solutions/ideas.... its your choise.

I was going to do this whooooooooooooollleeee thing that you are going through.

Then I went stock.

I went with the 4 row (big waste 3 row is the shizzle) stock rad. Mechanical, direct drive fan.

Never looked back. The thing about the electric fan that worried me was the failure factor. I can think of many ways to spin a mechanical fan on the trail. Though with an electrical fan there is no easy way to "keep" it running...ie blown relays no spare, bad fan motor. How many fan belts have you ever gone through?

Now if clearance was an issue with a motor swap or rad swap like this, then well my opinion would really be moot.

As for deep water crossings with a mechanical fan...I will have to rip some video tonight of my memorial day trip. Stock gauge steel fan VERY, VERY deep into the water...

My technic: Just lower the RPM's before submerging once in keep it steady on the rev's and slowly apply power (traction) if needed...:D



As for flex-lites...and flex fans...I will also rip some video of my buddy in the same hole with one of those style fans...you will LOVE the sound it makes...

to be continued...:flipoff2:

Tom,
Haven't you ever done Middle Fork? That trail is a blast when it first opens up, usually around the first of June. Ran it one with water over the headlights of my TJ, running 7" lift and 35s. That trail is (was, once I move) one main reason I learned to run electrics. Mark Smith, from our club, running a 302-powered Ranger cut a nice basketball hoop out of his rad on that run.
Unfortunately I won't be in MT long enough to do it again but I highly recommend you hook up with Pat McKeon or Leonard early next summer and run through. I do believe it is the most fun trail in MT.

D

Originally posted by Darel
but I highly recommend you hook up with Pat McKeon or Leonard early next summer and run through. I do believe it is the most fun trail in MT.



That would involve tom actually WHEELING... and we can't have that.....












:flipoff2:

Originally posted by RustoleumWhite



That would involve tom actually WHEELING... and we can't have that.....



:D :flipoff2:

I'd like to go run the Middle Fork.. it's just that everyone runs it during race season.. :D

I think the problem is that the races are held during wheelin' season.

Originally posted by TORC
I think the problem is that the races are held during wheelin' season.

:D

The best wheeling (for challenge) in Montana is in the winter.

The rest of the time it's more fun to take a stocker out than to bother gassing up my trail rig.

Try a 3.0 spirit V6 fan - flush mount motor and ~3" thick ,11 blades and pulls air like a mo fo

Originally posted by CRAZY MATT
Try a 3.0 spirit V6 fan - flush mount motor and ~3" thick ,11 blades and pulls air like a mo fo

I've got a 1 speed 3.0 Taurus fan for sale if anyone wants it.

Used (from a yard), $35 plus shipping....

Send me a PM

Got it in!

I had the mounting tabs hacked off and new ones welded on that moved the rad 1.5" further forward. The cap nestles perfectly into a little notch in the rad support. I had to trim some of the pinch welds in the grille to clear the oil cooler but it looks like everything fits nicely.
My flexhose will be in Tuesday, hopefully then I can fire it up and cross my fingers.
Here's some pics of the final install:
http://www.m4x4a.org/ImageGallery/album16/11220010_G.sized.jpg
http://www.m4x4a.org/ImageGallery/album16/11220011_G.sized.jpg
http://www.m4x4a.org/ImageGallery/album16/11220013_G.sized.jpg
http://www.m4x4a.org/ImageGallery/album16/11220012_G.sized.jpg

By the way, that isn't a starter solenoid in that one pic, it's the 85A continuous-duty solenoid I found in the parts book to run the fan.

That turned out nice. Good job

Thanks!

looks good nice and cleen