Hey Roundtable Members, these impatient teams are not worth representing...let's just rescind all of our fighting for better rules for these teams and let the teams be at the mercy of UROC.
All that are whining, THANKS FOR THE APPRECIATION...I've put about 30 hours into this whole thing this week alone...WHAT HAVE YOU DONE EXCEPT COMPLAIN???
Any more nagatives and bitching from you guys and I will truely say F' off and stop working FOR you...I'll just vote for what works best for ME and laugh when you cry...If you don't have something constructive to say and you don't take the time to write it in a way that actually helps this hard situation...STFU!

Now on a quieter tone. It looks like things are moving closer towards regulations that will affect the vehicle builds. We stuill need a few more hours...I'd like two more days myself as this is harder than you might think. Patience please.

Dustin
Glad to see you are enjoying your new seat.
Didn't know it was gonna be this much fun did ya?? :D
Jeff

The way I understood it, the roundtable represents the competitors and not the organization. The roundtable members shouldn't take personal any attack on the organization and shouldn't make excuses for them or cover for them. So what is the problem?

Terry it just seems like everyone is more worried about why and how the roundtable happened. The problem is that the roundtable has been formed and end of story. Why don't these guys put a little input on the rules. Unless they contacted other members I've not seen any good rule debates from these complainers.

Dustin,

I was once told don't bicth uless your ready to the job yorself, so I,ll just say thank you Roundtable. As soon as everyone involved is satisified I'm sure you'll release the rules. (soon I hope )
Then we all will have to see what there's really to complain about.
PepDaddy

Originally posted by TerryHowe
The way I understood it, the roundtable represents the competitors and not the organization. The roundtable members shouldn't take personal any attack on the organization and shouldn't make excuses for them or cover for them. So what is the problem?
Hmmmm, I think I should represent ALL sides. That is the way to improve something isn't it? I wish you were in my shoes right now Terry. You really have no appreciation for the job we're doing. If you did, you wouldn't make the kind of comments that you have.

Originally posted by pure-adrenaline
Terry it just seems like everyone is more worried about why and how the roundtable happened. The problem is that the roundtable has been formed and end of story. Why don't these guys put a little input on the rules. Unless they contacted other members I've not seen any good rule debates from these complainers.

I hear ya RJ. I mostly read this forum for laughs and it has been pretty funny lately!

Here’s a screenshot of my e-mail from the last three days of work on the roundtable alone...this doesn't include the MANY messages to and from teams or my outbox for the roundtable which is about 35 messages long. Many of these messages are PAGES long and took hours to write! We’re working hard on combining the best from UROC & RCAA as well as bringing our own suggestions in and trying to make it all work.

http://www.redbullrockcrawlers.com/email.jpg

Go easy on us, we're working FOR FREE!
Thanks PepDaddy...looking forward to seeing you at PutUp...you going to the hammer's for turkey day?

Originally posted by pepdaddy
Don't bitch unless you're ready to do the job yourself!

AMEN!

Look at the times...... We have been on this Morning, Noon, and Night! Everyday.

Originally posted by RedBullJeep

Hmmmm, I think I should represent ALL sides. That is the way to improve something isn't it?

Dustin, respectfully, you spend TOO MUCH time representing all sides, and some days selling all of us on the "BIG" picture. If you conscienciously agreed to participate in the Competitor Round Table, then don't be upset/defensive when the Competitors you represent have issues. I have thought to myself that you are the single best spokesperson for the "sport", understanding the issues, blessed with the ability to see further down the road, and articulate it well in print. That wasn't an attack, but my observation, and at the same time I hope that you are up to the task of "speaking up" for a single piece of the puzzle, the competitors. We need you on our side!

I'm not condoning or supporting the negative dialog/attacks spread across the web these last few weeks over the selection process, or the job being done by the round table members. Nor am I sitting here (or acting like it) with welder in hand waiting on the rules so I can burn the midnight oil.

Stay on task, don't forget to breathe occasionally, and lets all focus on the reason there is a roundtable in the first place!

Thanks to all of ya!

Hey Roundtable Members, these impatient teams are not worth representing...let's just rescind all of our fighting for better rules for these teams and let the teams be at the mercy of UROC.
All that are whining, THANKS FOR THE APPRECIATION...I've put about 30 hours into this whole thing this week alone...WHAT HAVE YOU DONE EXCEPT COMPLAIN???
Any more nagatives and bitching from you guys and I will truely say F' off and stop working FOR you...I'll just vote for what works best for ME and laugh when you cry...If you don't have something constructive to say and you don't take the time to write it in a way that actually helps this hard situation...STFU!



You knew the job was dangerous when You took it!
big shoes to fill how do they feel? I have almost no sympathy for you, been there done that, and for free on top of that, sucks to be you, I love seeing someone else deal with this crap,Karma is a bitch aint it!

Hang in there Dustin, tough job but You VOLUNTEERED for it.

Thanks for loving the sport enough to do the job, Now go read your email , get to work, and give us some rules damnit!


ps. We will all cry foul if You win anything!:flipoff2:

Yes I'm Jokin,
Jeff

Originally posted by Jeff Knoll
if You win anything!:flipoff2:

Yeah...like that'll ever happen!

Guys keep up the good work. I know what your going through. I serve on 7 different Boards, chairman of one and vice chairman of another, and you will never please everone.


You can please some of the people some of the time BUt you cant please all the people all of the time.

Dustin, for whatever it's worth, I do appreciate the round table. I think the round table members were given too much to do, with too little time to do it, and complaints with UROC, end up being heard by the round table members (which is *not* where they should be heard).

In an honest attempt to be constructive, desipte that I've probably already blown what little credibility I have...

The rulebook still does not specify the reverse-stop action. If I stop, then reverse, I get a point for stopping, and another for reversing. If I reverse, then stop, it could be read as that I should only get the point for reversing. I've seen it scored differently at the same event, by different course judges. Had I not seen it scored differently, I wouldn't be noting it.

Can the "pinned out" rear steer be accomplished hydraulicly or electrically, or must it be a mechanical (cable?) method of pin removal?

Spotter head protection, no soft material. Is a bicycle helmet, rockclimbing helmet, kayaking helmet, skiiing helmet, or other something compliant?

Is it permitted to cut the grill on a stock class vehicle, for example, to clear a winch solenoid box?

Dzus is a brand name; I doubt the Dzus folks would take kindly to their product being referenced as "zeus clip".

Ethylene glycol is specifically prohibited; propylene glycol is suggested in Super Mod, but is not noted in the other two classes. Stock class does not have the note of overflow containers not being beverage containers; mod and super mod do.

Nitrous oxide is not noted at all; is it safe to assume it is legal?

Let's get one thing straight! Beware of NOS on your rockcrawler....It blew the top off my motor at supercrawl.


The rules have a few flaws on the wording but all in all it's real close.

I thought you didn't get a stop till they counted to 4, am I wrong?

Originally posted by pure-adrenaline
Let's get one thing straight! Beware of NOS on your rockcrawler....It blew the top off my motor at supercrawl.


NOS is good! DO NOT outlaw it. Their is nothing unsafe about it, if there was they wouldn't allow it in cars that go 300 MPH:D

I don't think it's an issue. It only does damage to the one that uses it.

Due to the nature of invention, UROC must consider that all items not listed are not allowed.

Well if you read this, NOS is never mentioned in the rules, so it must be illegal.











But in the rules it never mentions anything about spotters clothing, so I guess it those must be illegal, damn who's gonna help keep all the women off me?:flipoff2:

Originally posted by RedBullJeep
Hey Roundtable Members, these impatient teams are not worth representing...let's just rescind all of our fighting for better rules for these teams and let the teams be at the mercy of UROC.
All that are whining, THANKS FOR THE APPRECIATION...I've put about 30 hours into this whole thing this week alone...WHAT HAVE YOU DONE EXCEPT COMPLAIN???
Any more nagatives and bitching from you guys and I will truely say F' off and stop working FOR you...I'll just vote for what works best for ME and laugh when you cry...If you don't have something constructive to say and you don't take the time to write it in a way that actually helps this hard situation...STFU!

Now on a quieter tone. It looks like things are moving closer towards regulations that will affect the vehicle builds. We stuill need a few more hours...I'd like two more days myself as this is harder than you might think. Patience please.

what do you want a cookie or something?? jeez!!

complain at the complainers...nice strategy!!

To tell you the truth UROC is all rockcrawlers they may not of thought about it. Since it's more of a drag racing thing. I will put the word in and let you guys know asap. I didn't see anything on propane either.

Originally posted by spencurai


what do you want a cookie or something?? jeez!!

complain at the complainers...nice strategy!!
No, I just want the complainers from the bunch of e-mails I've received and the tons of posts here on pirate to consider what the roundtable was up against...
Thanks for your consideration as well...if you ever need anything, contact someone else.

Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper
<SNIP>The rulebook still does not specify the reverse-stop action. If I stop, then reverse, I get a point for stopping, and another for reversing. If I reverse, then stop, it could be read as that I should only get the point for reversing. I've seen it scored differently at the same event, by different course judges. Had I not seen it scored differently, I wouldn't be noting it.

Scott,
I can try to clarify the reverse/stop question:
If you reverse and then stop you will only be pointed for the reverse point. If you stop for a full 4 count and then reverse you will get a point for the stop and then a point for the reverse. (See Section 2.5 in the rules) I have been teaching a judges class the day before every UROC event and will continue to do so particularly with the combination of UROC and RCAA staff. This issue will be brought up and delt with there. There should not be any further inconsistency with this situation.

Hey Scott, on the stop/reverse:

I realize what it has been in the past, which you just explained. But somehow I got the impression that it is intended to penalize you once you stop progress in reverse.

Originally posted by RedBullJeep

No, I just want the complainers from the bunch of e-mails I've received and the tons of posts here on pirate to consider what the roundtable was up against...
Thanks for your consideration as well...if you ever need anything, contact someone else.

You are a representative of the sport and your going to get tons of negative feedback on the board. Just perform the task at hand and try to stay professional with it. Thanks for the hard work! Three months from now it will all be worth it.

Originally posted by goin4xn

If you reverse and then stop you will only be pointed for the reverse point. If you stop for a full 4 count and then reverse you will get a point for the stop and then a point for the reverse.

This rule helps prevent stupid driving!



Scott
'84 CYJ-7 (Ongoing project)
UROC Head Judge

Is that the way things are falling out for 2004? If so, congrats Scott!

Originally posted by SpaceGhost
Hey Scott, on the stop/reverse:

I realize what it has been in the past, which you just explained. But somehow I got the impression that it is intended to penalize you once you stop progress in reverse.

Ghost,
Can you clarify your question? I'm not sure exactly what you're asking.

Originally posted by lt1wrangler


You are a representative of the sport and your going to get tons of negative feedback on the board. Just perform the task at hand and try to stay professional with it. Thanks for the hard work! Three months from now it will all be worth it.

Amen to that lt1.

Dustin - you'll never be able to make everyone happy. Also while all of this has been crammed into a very short time period you'll see everyones concerns and frustrations come out in that same short time period.

Like lt1 says - this will all be worth it a few months from now.

Originally posted by TerryHowe
Is that the way things are falling out for 2004? If so, congrats Scott!

So far......;)

Things are still up in the air and the next big project we have to tackle is who will be doing what jobs and how we're going to integrate the RCAA and UROC staffs. Mike Baer and I will be making phone calls shortly to see who's still interested in being on board.

I realise I will continue to see complaints...but have you seen the complaints versus the "SUGGESTIONS"? I have maybe 7 total suggestions in my e-mail and PM box...over 70 complaints with ZERO suggestions. It is even worse as you read the pirate boards.
I sent out a warning that people need to consider how they work with me in this roundtable...only ONE person didn't get the clue.

To the others that have quickly changed their tact, THANK YOU...

Originally posted by pepdaddy
I was once told don't bicth uless your ready to the job yorself,

Just for the record...
I went over the loopholes and whatnot in the rulebook face-to-face with Craig, verbally in July 2002.
I did it again, verbally, later that same season, on the phone.
I did it in writing in September '02.
I got a vague blowoff "we'll look at it" and no real response; hence why I didn't bother formally (I still did in chats with Craig) in '03. I had a lot of clarifications, a lot of points to note, and some legitimate requests for more info. No real answer.

By the time I even talked to Big Rich about his rulebook, I'd already been through the UROC book repeatedly. I talked to Rich at EJS, and chewed up his book, in writing, shortly thereafter. Think I'm bitchin' just 'cause I can? Ask Rich if I'm willing to do it. UROC has gotten my input before... they weren't interested enough to answer my requests for clarification.

Again, just to pound on a point... my complaint is with UROC, not the roundtable--I consider the roundtable to be as much victims of UROC's own issues, as anything else.

Dustin, Lance, et al, I do appreciate your efforts.

That said, I'll live with whatever rulebook I have to, provided:
1. The rules are enforced uniformly
2. There aren't a bunch of loopholes that benefit those who can throw huge cash at it
3. The rules are readily available to all those affected by them

That, IMHO, is all that's needed for a fair rulebook. Want to make rear steer a 20 point penalty? Fine... just put it in there. Backing is five points? OK, as long as it's five for everybody. Spotter ride is worthless? I'm OK with it, as long as I know upfront--I'd rather build a single seater if there's no benefit to seating two.

Scott,
Your comments are understood and actually shared by quite a few competitors. My conversations with Craig in the beginning (before the Pateys) were along the BUSINESS side of this whole thing. I gave him some advice as I had delt with similar situations before. He listed, said Yeah, Yeah, sounds good...then went off and did his own thing. That's FINE. It's a free country and he has his vision, took the time to listen to my advice, and decided he was on the right track anyway. This is the same with rules. They have a vision and will be swayed a little yet still follow it even though they have had warnings against doing so.

I believe UROC has done a decent job with the RoundTable, they took a lot (not all) of our advice. Now we will see where this whole thing goes.

Getting back to Craig, he approached me at SuperCrawl and said he wished he had listened a little more closely. That may be how it is with UROC as well but we'll just have to lobby what we can and then wait and see!

Originally posted by RedBullJeep

Hmmmm, I think I should represent ALL sides. That is the way to improve something isn't it? I wish you were in my shoes right now Terry. You really have no appreciation for the job we're doing. If you did, you wouldn't make the kind of comments that you have.

I disagree that the roundtable should represent all sides, that is absurd to me. I never read the charter of the round table, so I thought you were being overly defensive of UROC.

I appreciate your efforts, but I'm not about to put on the San Francisco slippers for you :flipoff2:

Then what do you want Terry. a group that is only thinking one-sided? Are you a Republican or Democrat? Should there be politicians that play the field according to progress? Do you only vote on party lines or do you look at WHAT's BEST FOR EVERYONE?

I will continue to support ALL sides that are MAKING SENSE Terry...anything else is absurd.

Originally posted by RedBullJeep
Then what do you want Terry. a group that is only thinking one-sided?

Yes. I hope that my Senators and Representative do everything they can for what's best for Colorado. That is why I voted for them. I want them looking out for my interests, not someone elses.

and you think they only consider what the people want? OR do think they should look at the big picture and push for what will benefit MORE people in the long run?

I've shown time and again in this forum, that I am submitting the represented teams opinions along with a big picture view...I'd rather have this whole thing work out to EVERYONE'S benefit...

Are you really saying I should only be looking out for the teams and that I shouldn't be looking out for the Judges, the Sponsors, the Fans, the Media, and the Promoters?
It sure looks that way...

You know, you haven't really given any suggestions on how you'd like me to represent you....would you like me to hear the voice of the competitors and then put the blinders on, ignoring the statements, ideals, and wishes of the other parties that are JUST as important as the teams? How am I supposed to represent the competitors when they all have different opinions and YOU don't want me to look at the bigger picture including ALL sides to TRY to determine what's best for everyone while still keeping the majority AND minority views on the table? Terry, the more I look at what you've said in this thread, the more I realise how selfish your statements have been...

I will continue working for EVERYONE...just as all of the other panel members have been trying to do. You can continue to complain while I've got about 25 messages to respond to, all the while trying to write up a summary of team's opinions received today to submit to the roundtable tomorrow. It's 11:30pm right now, I won't be done until about 2:30 am...same as last night...and the night before...and I'm doing this for YOU??? Definitly NOT. I'm doing this for ME? Same answer, definitly not. I'm doing this for EVERYONE...get used to it...

Originally posted by RedBullJeep
and you think they only consider what the people want? OR do think they should look at the big picture and push for what will benefit MORE people in the long run?


Okay, well if there is a vote in the future, I won't be voting for you :D

Terry, does this mean you hate me now???:(

Originally posted by RedBullJeep
Terry, does this mean you hate me now???:(

Not at all, I just disagree. I wish I was half as pimp as you are Dustin.

Originally posted by TerryHowe
I wish I was half as pimp as you are Dustin.

I wish my wife felt the same as you...:rolleyes:

Originally posted by RedBullJeep
Hey Roundtable Members, these impatient teams are not worth representing...let's just rescind all of our fighting for better rules for these teams and let the teams be at the mercy of UROC.
All that are whining, THANKS FOR THE APPRECIATION...I've put about 30 hours into this whole thing this week alone...WHAT HAVE YOU DONE EXCEPT COMPLAIN???
Any more nagatives and bitching from you guys and I will truely say F' off and stop working FOR you...I'll just vote for what works best for ME and laugh when you cry...If you don't have something constructive to say and you don't take the time to write it in a way that actually helps this hard situation...STFU!

Now on a quieter tone. It looks like things are moving closer towards regulations that will affect the vehicle builds. We stuill need a few more hours...I'd like two more days myself as this is harder than you might think. Patience please.

Sorry if some of us are a little impatient. We don't have the luxury of having a sponsor like yours squared away.

As for complaints, you knew it would happen and if you take it personally you should take a step back and see if this is for you.
If you don't want to represent us then resign, I'm serious... get out now! I don't see any of the other members crying about complaints. I hope you see what I'm saying and can see things through.

Andy

Andy,
You missed the point entirely...
We need suggestions, not complaints...who want's to work for a group of crybabies? I'd rather work for people who express their goals and ideas.
Before I started this thread, it was 90% complaining...that percentage has changed a bunch since...

Also, do you really think the other roundtable member's DON'T feel the same about complaining versus suggesting solutions?

No, I did not miss the point. I simply told you to not take it personally, which you have. I'm not criticizing the round table or anyone else, we all really need the info to get things in order.

I'm not here to tell you how to do your job but if you can't take the criticism then go! If you want to call us ungrateful or tell us to F'off go ahead, I know alot of people who would rather see you gone, no offence. Sorry.

Andy


Oops, almost forgot. I would much rather give my suggestions than complain, I want to see something we can all live with. I also need to see the rules which I can't get to load, so if you could please look into that, thanks.

Originally posted by ASH
I know alot of people who would rather see you gone, no offence. Sorry.
Andy
Wow...it's that easy...I'm gone then...
and to those that wanted me gone...good luck...

To those saying I can't take the heat...I can take the heat, just not when I've been putting in HUNDREDS of HOURS...for free and putting up with the losers bitching instead of helping.

I've got a family to take care of.

ASH and Terry...When I got my first request to accept a nomination, I said I didn't want to take part in the RoundTable as I didn't want to put myslef in the position I am now in. I reluctantly agreed just a couple of days before the nominations were closed and I hoped deep down that I had agreed late enough to actually NOT get chosen. I went in with good intentions and up until now, have kept 100% true to the goal of making this a sport where teams can enjoy wheeling AND get paid.
I am sorry for the enemies I have seemed to make in the last couple of weeks. I was working on this project for "all of us" while all of you were out working for yourselves...
I hope you'll forgive me for taking the defensive...I thought you would all understand how much hassle this has been and then wouldn't add to that by hassling the roundtable even more with your negativity.
Again, I'm sorry for my behavior, I want to be able to go to any trail and shake everyone's hand and wheel together...this cannot happen with the way things are headed...SO, here's the letter I just sent to the RoundTable:

Hey guys...I'm done.

I need to actually get my life together. Sitting here thinking about all of what's going on, I'm going to lay back. I'm probably going to run a CalRocs event or two plus a few other single events, but I'm going back to the trail.
When I look at the direction all of this is going, I'm guessing that most teams are not ready to make the leap into this whole thing without a major bunch of problems arising...I really cannot afford my reputation to get ruined in something like this and being a part of it in the first year is too risky. I think I will sit out the RoundTable and the UROC Pro Nationals...not that I would have been included anyway.

Some people are throwing shit at me just like we all knew they would and I simply am not interested in offending anyone else. My team is based in fun and I want to remain friends with everyone possible.

To the rest of the guys in the RoundTable, I think you have done a great job so far. I hope it all turns out to be as successful as I know it can be. Just remember to look at the Big Picture with every move you make. Whenever you write a rule, ask yourself what is the real goal here and be sure it helps everyone from the lowest level team, to the judges, to the sponsors, the media, and the promoters.

Thanks for working with me and I look forward to seeing you on the trail or at an event.

For my replacement, I would normally suggest choosing Larry McRae as he has been the most professional team member I have dealt with.
BUT considering the issues many in the east have had about not having proper representation, I will again submit the first person I nominated, which is Ken Blume. I agree that they should have someone from the "other coast" to convey their needs and wants, yet I believe he will offer that balanced with a proper "business" outlook on this whole project.

Rock On,
Dustin "PAN" Webster
RedBull RockCrawling Team

Wow !!!!

Dustin,

I don't think any of this stuff is personal towards you or any of the round table members. The simple fact is that you are the 1 person that really has gone out of the way to answer a few of the basic questions everyone has. You are also the 1 that gets dumped on because of that.

The answer is probably to let the round table and Uroc put together whatever it is they are doing and then announce the whole thing. But the problem is that everyone wants to see progress and that they aren't getting screwed somehow. That's human nature.

Uroc has pumped this up to be the greatest show on earth and everyone wants to be part of it. Everyone just wants to see what that means.

tony k

Dustin,

I owe you an apology for speaking to much, even though I don't see eye to eye with you it's shocking to see you want to leave. It's just my opinion, it's not personal twoards you. The job you and the rest of the round table have is a thank less one if you think about it. It's just like a person in a political office, their pay off usually seems to come later rather than sooner. I also see you as the only one on the round table who's on here voicing complaints about complaints. When someone complains about me I consider it, and then move on with what I was doing. So you may take it for whatever it's worth. Sorry.

Andy

Andy,
I appreciate the apology. I also appreciate that I was forced to look at the current situation and I found I was in a place I didn't want to be. One things for sure, I don't want to risk losing friendships or even potential friendships as the goal of the entire team is to have a good time.
Speaking of potential friendships lost...does anyone know the guy that puts up this website? www.mudwars.com David from Long Beach is all I can figure from the contact info. He didn't exactly paint a nice picture of me in his picture captions on his CalRocs final review. I want to know what I did to anger him as I want to set the record straight that anything I MAY have done was unintentional. Does anyone know him or know what made him unhappy with me?

Originally posted by RedBullJeep
Speaking of potential friendships lost...does anyone know the guy that puts up this website? www.mudwars.com David from Long Beach is all I can figure from the contact info. He didn't exactly paint a nice picture of me in his picture captions on his CalRocs final review. I want to know what I did to anger him as I want to set the record straight that anything I MAY have done was unintentional. Does anyone know him or know what made him unhappy with me?

You could just call him and ask:

Contact Info
Mudwars Entertainment
53 Pine Ave #220
Long Beach, CA 90802
(562) 209-1280
davidh@mudwars.com