Ok, I've been brainstorming on a X-mas present and I've decided to ask my parent's for cage money. They've become especially concerned about my safety lately and I think this is a good opportunity to put them at ease, make my Jeep safer/stiffer, and not feel like I'm just a spoiled kid(you may make your own judgements ). So, as usual, I have big dreams that are difficult to implement. Here is a list of things I want to incorporate in my cage:

Through the dash in some way, whether by doing something like the Poison Spyder Cage does in TJs and bolts angle iron to the a-pillar/firewall or with just normal tube(I hate the way the tubes look bent around the dash, and I have enough trouble getting my 6' 3" self in the Jeep without a big tube in the way.

I want to retain full use of my seats for street/day to day use.

I don't want to lose much if any visibility on my A-pillars.

Finally I want to tie a solidly built roofrack into the interior cage by doing something similar to Farmermat's rack(at least in mounting). I want this because there are a TON of tight trails around here with offcamber sections that tend to get you a little too close to trees for comfort, and I'd like to feel like if I flopped into a tree, it wouldn't destroy the roof.

Now, I've got a few ideas on some of this stuff. I've got the roofrack thing pretty much designed in my head already. What I've been thinking about doing and would like some advice on, is whether or not you think it's possible to get a strong enough piece of tube behind the trim on the A-pillars, over the doors, and possibly in the B-pillar. Judging by the outside dimensions of the pillars and that area of the roof, it appears that there is enough space, but that sheetmetal is in the way. What I'm proposing is to cut open the pillar and other areas(if necessary) and recess the tube into the now available space. Then stitch welding the remaining pillars back to the tube so that the strength is returned to the body's structure. Do you think this would weaken the body overall, strengthen it, weaken it but not enough to be noticed due to the addition of the cage, or what? Also, anyone had a newer dash apart and know what exactly is in the way behind there that I might run into problems with? One thing that I did notice rightaway is that if my idea of going inside the A-pillar does not work, is that the VIN plate is in the way and I'm wondering if that would be a legal problem.

So what do you guys think. I don't smoke, so their's no pipe to put down and step away from I'm just naturally this nuts Thanks

Ary

P.S. I'm sure I have more ideas that I forgot to list and will try to add them and clarify the current ones as I go along. Oh yeah, one last thing. My Jeep is a 2001 and will be my DD for at least another 3 years. Additionally, I'm getting a bit too much body flex to feel comfortable which is another source of motivation for this project. Thanks again

get a hitch in the back, nice solid bumper up front, plate the uni frame rails with some angle iron. once you have that done build your cage to your likings and tie it through the floor to your rear hitch, angle iron on frame rails, and through the dash (or better yet a small exo bar that goes up from your rocker sliders around the fender flair into your front bumper) to the front bumper. if you want to go all out plate your susp mounts and build a new cross member/skid and tie it all into the cage and youve got one hell of a solid rig with out much if any body flex. some say body flex is good, but imo body flex is only good on a rig that will crack/rip/tear if it doesnt. otherwise no body flex is the way to go, your susp is what does the flexing


even cooler idea, have your parents buy you tools and do all yer mods yerself

I in now way think that you are nuts, just a little off your rocker :D

I mean the best way to see if you have enough room behind your dash is to open it up and look.

In the '97 and newer XJ's you can have the entire front dash off in 5 mins and back together in another 5 mins. ( and if you can not get this part done by yourself then you should not even be considering to cut open the a-pillars and b-pillars to insert a tube.

I sure do hope you have anothwer vehicle to drive if you decide to cut open those pillars and insert tube.
This will not be a weekend task, but many days or weeks to get this completed depending on your level of experience and skill.

BUt in all reality if your rig is still a daily driver, I would just put a regular cage on the inside or do an exo on the outside. ( of course unless you plan to take it off the road in the future and make it a trail rig only) reason: if you start cutting the pillars you will not be able to sell your DD for any kind of price you may want think it is worth.

Just my .02

This is exactly what I've been considering for our XJ. We have a 94, so the interior is probably a little different. I bet you could get the tube right against the a pillar. I do however doubt that you could entirely enclose the tubing. You might consider using smaller tubing and more triangulation.

Take this Subaru for example, granted, it's not the most comfortable, and easy to get into, but it uses smaller diameter tubing, and is way stronger than lots of the cages used on here. Maybe use a variation of the dash/firewall design to assist you.

http://www.swrt.com/cpimages/349748.jpg

Originally posted by EXO
get a hitch in the back, nice solid bumper up front, plate the uni frame rails with some angle iron. once you have that done build your cage to your likings and tie it through the floor to your rear hitch, angle iron on frame rails, and through the dash (or better yet a small exo bar that goes up from your rocker sliders around the fender flair into your front bumper) to the front bumper. if you want to go all out plate your susp mounts and build a new cross member/skid and tie it all into the cage and youve got one hell of a solid rig with out much if any body flex. some say body flex is good, but imo body flex is only good on a rig that will crack/rip/tear if it doesnt. otherwise no body flex is the way to go, your susp is what does the flexing

I've got the front and rear bumpers taken care of and I have rock rails that add a little bit of ridgidity to the body by tying the frame and pinch seams together.
Originally posted by EXO
even cooler idea, have your parents buy you tools and do all yer mods yerself

As much as I would love to have a tubing bender to compliment my Miller Mig and collection of benchtop machining tools, I don't have anywhere to put the damn thing(I'm in school, living in an apartment 5 hours from home) and would rather mess around learning to bend on something a little less intricate than I want this cage to be.

I'm not a newbie to 'wheelin or fab work, I was just wondering if you guys thought my ideas were feasible. I tend to have ideas a bit on the wild/unfeasible side.

BTW, anyone got any pics of the red skyjacker XJ?? I've heard that it has a cage that is completely hidden behind the trim and headliner from the front seats forward. Thanks

Ary

Interesting idea Ary. I'd love to see pics of the Skyjacker XJ cage as well. Who's going to be doing the cage work for you?

Mac, I'd like Andy to do the work, but based on previous conversations I've had with him I don't think he wants to do it. He told me he wouldn't go through the dash as it wasn't worth it in his opinion. That was almost a year ago now, so maybe things have changed, I don't know. Anyway, I will continue to do research and will probably dismantle my dash over the holiday to see what's back there and in the way.

Ary

Originally posted by Arya Ebrahimi
Anyway, I will continue to do research and will probably dismantle my dash over the holiday to see what's back there and in the way.

Ary

How about you draggin' your carcass down to NC to go wheelin over Turkey Day... fawker.:D

BTW, interesting idea but you know what I'd do.:flipoff2:

Aside from cage opinions, everyone has theirs, I would recommend not tieing the roof rack into the cage. What if you needed to remove it to clear an overhead obstacle? The "tight" trails you are talking about may become tighter. Then you have no choice but to turn around and go back...Just food for thought.

Above all, do not decide on a cage design for looks or comfort. Build it for your safety. Looks kill, but a properly designed and built cage will do its job. You can have both, but sacrificing strength for looks makes the entire project rather meaningless.

BTW- If Andy does it, he won't build a cage that won't hold up.

I agree, safety is the only reason for the cage.

The Suburu idea above, using better geometry and slightly smaller tube is not a problem.... IF the geometry and layout are given proper consideration. Nothing wrong with being intelligently creative. :idea:

If you do an interior, you don't need it to be all braced and gussetted in an overkill manner b/c you still do have the roof and pillars working *some* for you. I tried to go through the ZJ dash, but it was impossible and not worth even attempting as too much stuff would have to be relocated/fabbed (heater bot, blower motor, etc), so EOR just went around the dash instead. Interesting idea nonetheless about cutting out the pillars, but not worth it if its still a DD in my opinion. Just go basic interior and you should be safe.

Jody, you've met me before, I don't know if you remember. It was back in the day when Brad Woolley's Jeep was at the shop for the major buildup. Anyway, I agree, I'm not looking to sacrifice strength for looks, I feel like I've got a pretty good idea of how things need to be braced in order to hold up and I agree about Andy's work, I have faith in it. With that said, if I can make it a "low-profile" cage on the inside, that's great.

About the roof rack. I do not intend for it to be permanently tied to the cage or roof. Rather it will be detacheable, but the mounting points for it will be tied into the cage. I've already got this part worked out in my head and don't for see any problems.

Brandon, I've seen your cage and although I agree that it should do it's job when combined with the roof. I must say I can't imagine living with it on a daily basis. It just intrudes too much into the passenger compartment for my tastes and if I can work around that while still accomplishing the safety aspect of it, once again, all the better.

Ary

make sure you or whoever builds your cage knows what they are doing! i have seen way too many pooly built cages that are more dangerous than they are safe. adding a lot of angle on the rails is fine, but me and alot of others are real concerned about weight. going thru the dash is not worth the time or effort in my opinion for the jeep that you describe. i WOULD NOT tie your roof thingy into your cage. the rack's mounting points into the cage would have to support the entire weight of the vehicle in a roll. thats four (or six) high-stress points that a cage really does not need. the point of cages (at least in my experience in building competition rock rigs) is to spread the weight of the vehicle over a wider area to prevent excess stress in one particular area.

what type and size of material do you plan on using? are you going to keep the headliner? how are you tying the cage to the jeep? do you still plan on using the backseat for passengers? i ask this because in an XJ with the roof and a headliner there is not a lot of room to put an effective cage in and still have adequete room for your head to swing and bounce around in a crash. hitting your head even on a padded bar will still scramble your eggs pretty good, if not kill you. you say you are still going to be riding in the stock seats, yes? well you wont have harnesses in there so you need to have the bars that much further away from your head and body. remember that a stock seatbelt give you a lot more movement than an actual harness. once you get the main hoop over you and your main passenger's head out of the way enough for your safety, it is now dangerously close to the passengers in the back's heads. and in an XJ there is not a lot of room in the roof area to begin with, so tucking the bars up into the ceiling brings a whole new set of problems. a big gaggle of tube is pointless and very dangerous with incomplete welds. you may have to either cut holes in the top of your jeep to finish the welds or even take the roof off completely and then weld it back on when you are finished.

id be very intrested in seeing and hearing some of your ideas for the geometry of this cage. i am sorry to be so negative in my post, but putting a cage in a stock vehicle is a lot harder than putting one in an open top jeep.

jeremy

Jeremy, I agree with all of your points, and this is why I want to conceal the cage behind the trim. Not only for looks, but also because I have never hit my head on the trim and I've shook myself up pretty good and flopped twice. Let me go learn autocad real quick and I'll reply in a few days when I've got a good drawing(I'm serious, not being a dick :flipoff2: ) As for the headliner, I'd love to be able to hide the cage above the headliner, even if that means relocating the headliner a 1/2" lower overall. I plan to take a lot of my interior apart over the holiday so I can figure out if any of this is possible.

I want to say one thing and that is that I'm not an "Extreme wheeler" or anything like that. My Jeep only has 33s, maybe 35s by the end of the summer, I'm not out to trash my truck. I just want to keep myself in one piece should the worst happen.

Ary

I understand what you mean by a roofrack. There are a couple guys doing this already...but its not really a roofrack. They are roof sliders. Could tie in the mounting points right over the A, B, C, D pillers (not cut holes but mount it there, and add lateral supports.

Now as far as A pillers and making more room but not loosing strength. Take a look at Poison Spyder Customs TJ cage. It goes "thru" the dash but not really. I don't see why this couldn't work and give you more leg room.

Andy did my cage a few weeks ago. we got a pretty good look at the space inside the a&b pillars as we cut half the roof off! The pillars themselves are not too roomy. It'd be really hard to fit anything inside them. Plus, I don't know how you'd get the tube inside the pillar and then tie it into anything else! Mine is not terrible to get in and out of, although I'm really glad its not a DD. It'd take a SPECIAL kinda, girl to fold herself into the jeep for a date! That being said. if it could be fit behind the dash it would be much more user friendly! As EVERYBODY know's, Andy is the Man, and i'm sure he can make it work! My cage turned out really well, can't wait to test it at EROCC! Dave

the only problem with running the tube into the trim and tucking it up that high is how are you going to run a bead on the top half of a joint? this is where you cut a 4"x4" hole in the roof and complete the bead. and as i assumed earlier, you do not want to cut apart your jeep (being a 2001 and all;)). my only concern is not the safety offroad because your flops are gentle and slow moving, but on the road crashing at a higher speed. no matter how hard you try, you just wont get the gun around the top to even lay a bead, much less get good penetration.

what type and size material do you plan to use? at least the size will play a big part in the design of this cage. remember to leave room for the bends in your design.

o yeah, whats the deal with backseat passengers? do you plan on still carrying backseaters?

again, sorry to keep bashing your idea. we'll get it all straightened out.:D

jeremy

I carry backseat passengers VERY RARELY, and never when wheeling. I usually don't even have the backseat in place. Pretty much the only time the backseat is used is for hauling groups of drunk girls back to my place after a party, to "continue the party" ;) :D

As for materials, I was thinking something like 1.5" DOM in the .120-.188 range. I was also thinking to run two main bars long the sides of the roof from back to front and then down the A-pillar, and then have the B and other pillars attach fish mouth style(this would allow the tubes to be fully welded and then put into place. The only area where full welds would not be allowed would be on one side of the overhead bars and on any overhead triangulation. I could account for this by using the in-line tube clamps from poly-performance, but probably wouldn't go to all that trouble.

As for cutting into the roof, you're right, don't exactly want to do that.

Like I said I'm still figuring all this out and this is why I posted,
the "please critique" line in the subject was there for a reason ;)

Oh, and have you ever seen XJs that have been in wrecks or rolls? They generally fair amazingly well.

Ary

Here are pics of Jeremy's cage and his rig..

http://community.webshots.com/album/83751799algjHm


Here are pics of what I needed a cage for ;)
http://community.webshots.com/album/37552728FJYTlO

Originally posted by Arya Ebrahimi
Oh, and have you ever seen XJs that have been in wrecks or rolls? They generally fair amazingly well.

Ary

Originally posted by smartazz19
Here are pics of Jeremy's cage and his rig..

http://community.webshots.com/album/83751799algjHm


Here are pics of what I needed a cage for ;)
http://community.webshots.com/album/37552728FJYTlO



Well, if he knows you, then I'm sure he's seen an XJ that's been rolled :p

Ary,
Just how fast are you planning to go when you roll your XJ?
A regular crawling speed is not much faster than 10-20 MPH, 30 on extreem. The XJ body has a factory "light duty" frame in it. I don't think too many people have died at that speed, unless the're drunk and without seat belts at night! I've seen 'em roll and they hold up very well. My 16 year old Daughter is wheeling in one and I have no fears. Terry

Originally posted by SCOUT
Ary,
Just how fast are you planning to go when you roll your XJ?
A regular crawling speed is not much faster than 10-20 MPH, 30 on extreem. The XJ body has a factory "light duty" frame in it. I don't think too many people have died at that speed, unless the're drunk and without seat belts at night! I've seen 'em roll and they hold up very well. My 16 year old Daughter is wheeling in one and I have no fears. Terry

Well, the reasons for the cage are not necessarily for the predictable and fairly gentle off-road flop or roll. I've got way too much body flex to be comfortable with and the fact that I drive 25,000 miles a year on the highway in a rig with a much higher COG than normal puts me at a greater risk for a high speed roll.

Ary

Ary, I couldn't agree more. I use my XJ as a daily driver, but it's getting to be more of a trail rig every day :). I not only want to protect from the on the trail roll, but also have a better chance at surviving a wreck on road, which I hope I won't have to deal with.

wow, its like going back in time. we need to update those pics of yours.

Well come over when its sunny and we'll do that... They arent that old. Oh wait ya they are ...you have euros now ;)

Jeremy

Originally posted by jwjeep
wow, its like going back in time. we need to update those pics of yours.

ary, as for material .120 wall is fine. good choice on DOM ;) 1 1/2" is fine also, but i tend to use 1 5/8" on most applications.

putting in a cage will not necessarily solve body roll. it will to an extent but its HOW you tie the cage in to the jeep that really makes the difference.

jeremy

What about doing an exo cage on the roof? Have the tubing follow the pillars up, and then have a holes going through the roof. Start with the a-pillar down tubes welded to the main roof structure. Pass that though to the ine inside, then you could angle the whole deal to get a good bead on the other tubes. Once you get all those mounted, tie them in on the inside and finish all that crap up in there. Then you can make the roof rack clamp to the exo cage, and if you need to take it off for clearance, you are a little over an inch higher then your actual roof line. Maybe it's my severe pain killers talking, but that seems to take care of the problem of cooking yer noggin in a crash.

my plan for tying the roof rack into the cage was this. Sandwhich the ridges in the roof where the stock rails are(the ones that run front to back) with 3/16"s flat bar all the way from front to back. Then weld the inside piece of flat bar to the cage using legs shaped like this \_/ so that you get a wider contact area with the roof piece. Then fab up a sort of "quick release" that attaches the roof rack(also fabbed out of DOM in the 7/8" flavor) to the roof and indirectly to the cage. I figured this would help tie the cage into the roof which is definately a structural member in a unibody, and also allows tree rubbage without destroying the roof. Even if I don't do a cage, I still plan to do the roof rack as I've described :flipoff2:

Ary

i think you should do a rack that attaches to the roof like most production racks do. or do something that attaches to the gutters. they are much stronger than a roof mount. then there is no stress on the cage. also keep in mind that the cage is going to be alot stiffer than the body. therefore the cage is going to move seperatly from the jeep. thats why if you put the cage right up on the ceiling it will probably make noise. and another thing - remember to add bracing for side to side movement if you end up doing the cage. you may or may not know what im talking about. most cages i see do not have these, cause generally no one tends to think about it. for example: a bar that goes from a bottom corner to the opposite upper corner. this helps control side to side shifting of the cage.

a good idea for you and others to try is making a small replica of your cage out of toothpicks or something similar. then you can see the ups and downs of different designs.

jeremy

yeah, I know, it's called triangulation :flipoff2:

As for the cage moving inside the Jeep, I sure as hell hope not, that's the whole point. Even if I don't end up going inside the B-pillar, I still intend to attach it to the seatbelt mounting bolt for added rigidity. This comes as a suggestion of the NAXJA crowd, who I trust undoubtfully when it comes to unibody reinforcement.

the cage will strengthen the frame and lower part of the jeep. its the top taht is going to sway a bit. i guess i know what you mean by the seatbelt bolt tying into the cage but i think it just might start cracking the pillar around that attachment. it will be nothing you will really notice or anything that is going to hurt the cage or jeep. it is just something that is going to be there.

maybe our vocabularies are different but triangulation does not exactly refer to the bar like i described. in cage terms, its taking the force on a certain point (the top of the cage for instance) and distributing the weight of the vehicle over a wider area below the impact point (kinda what i described in my first post).