Nitto Mud Grappler [Archive]

spencurai

11-19-2003, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by KC_JoNeS

There is a substantial difference between a 17" and a 22". Look at that 40" tire. It looks like a low pro tire on a Range Rover.

ok....lets do some math....

a 37" tire on 17" rim gives you a theoretical 10 inch sidewall...

a 40" tire on a 22" rim gives you a theoretical 9 inch sidewall.....

do you really think it is going to make that much of a difference?...

now from a weight standpoint....aluminum always weighs more than rubber and air....so the larger the rim you have, the heavier your wheel and tire combo are going to be.....Especially if you need to have a rim that is going to take some abuse!!

I would still take that set and run!!!

KC_JoNeS

11-19-2003, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by spencurai

ok....lets do some math....

a 37" tire on 17" rim gives you a theoretical 10 inch sidewall...

a 40" tire on a 22" rim gives you a theoretical 9 inch sidewall.....

do you really think it is going to make that much of a difference?...

I would still take that set and run!!!

Well, math being done, let's be reallistic. A 37" BFG crawler with air is 37.5". A 40" tire filled typically comes in at about 39-39.5". That is a diff of 2 inches. But the wheel is a radius change of 2.5 inches. That is a substantial difference.

BobWilliams

11-19-2003, 10:17 AM

those tires have been at the sema show for 2 years now and they keep putting the release date ahead but they are not trying to get into our market they are into the pavement pounder world.

lets face it we are not the big money market the import and streey guys are they are the ones with $10k paint jobs and chromed out superdutys with 44s. nitto sees a big money market with people that want the look and will spend the money to get it.

redneckengineered

11-19-2003, 10:21 AM

Well you can do all the math you want but I've seen a lot of 37s on 17in rims and none of them had nearly the low profile sidewall as those Nittos in the SEMA pic.

spencurai

11-19-2003, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by redneckengineered
Well you can do all the math you want but I've seen a lot of 37s on 17in rims and none of them had nearly the low profile sidewall as those Nittos in the SEMA pic.

what I am trying to say is that it is an optical illusion.....lateral sidewall flex is bad....vertical sidewall flex is good....large sidewalls (40" tire 15" rim) gives you too much lateral flex and almost too much vertical flex which nets you tire wrap.....

Why do you think they went to 17" rims?? for looks?? to sell more rims??

get it through your neanderthal skulls....it is better for tire performance to have a larger rim.....but not necessarily better for vehicle performance...:rolleyes: :flipoff2:

CA_YJ

11-19-2003, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by redneckengineered
Well you can do all the math you want but I've seen a lot of 37s on 17in rims and none of them had nearly the low profile sidewall as those Nittos in the SEMA pic.

No shit I run 37's on a 17 and It looks like I have WAY more sidewall than that one. Also what width rims are those? They look wide.

Someone mentioned that 37's measure 37.5. I hope that was a type cause I have had 37" MTR's and Krawlers and none measure up to 37"

KC_JoNeS

11-19-2003, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by spencurai

get it through your neanderthal skulls....it is better for tire performance to have a larger rim.....but not necessarily better for vehicle performance...:rolleyes: :flipoff2:

OK then, why dont we just build a 36" wheel and strap a rubber band to it? We would get awesome tire performance.

No one is doubting that a bigger rim is better. A 17 inch seems to be about perfect nowadays. But come on. A 22"? That is ludicrous.

CA_YJ

11-19-2003, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by spencurai

what I am trying to say is that it is an optical illusion.....lateral sidewall flex is bad....vertical sidewall flex is good....large sidewalls (40" tire 15" rim) gives you too much lateral flex and almost too much vertical flex which nets you tire wrap.....

Why do you think they went to 17" rims?? for looks?? to sell more rims??

get it through your neanderthal skulls....it is better for tire performance to have a larger rim.....but not necessarily better for vehicle performance...:rolleyes: :flipoff2:

Ya in a race car. Personally I like my tire to conform to the rocks. You say lateral flex is bad, vertical flex is good. This is an inherently contradictory statement. You can't have one without the other.

Oh and neanderthals have been dead for a while now:flipoff2:

Dustin Smith

11-19-2003, 10:49 AM

When does too much a good thing enter the realm? Sure, a lower profile sidewall may be better in theory, but what happens when you get to the point that your sidewall is so short that you are no longer able to wrap around and grab obstacles when youre aired down? Would you want to run single digit pressure in that , or any 22" rim, with the ensuing damage that WILL happen to a rim that large, when inside of a tire that unprotective?

spencurai

11-19-2003, 10:50 AM

we have all seen competitors rigs start to bounce on an obstacle. This is partially due to suspension configuration but it can also be attributed to sidewall wraping....it goes along the same lines as leaf spring wrap...there is a loading that occurs when the vehicle gains traction, then twists up the sidewall of the tire and then unloads causing a loss of traction....the tire is acting like a giant torque "bank" storing energy....drag racers manage this well as their sidewalls flex and slowly unload over the 1/4 mile.

With rock rigs, you don't have a nice even flat track with a nice sticky surface to unload your torque so you bounce....this can be reduced or effectively eliminated by a taller rim and shorter sidewall....

the tradeoff:

if you make your sidewall too short, you lose the ability to air down and create a significant contact patch on the surface you are trying to climb...you limit your ability to put the torque to the ground....so...if your sidewalls are too tall...you get bad performance....if your sidewalls are too short, you get undesired performance.....where is the balance? Who are we to know...17" rims seem to work, and so 15" rims....but nobody knows how well a 20 or 22" rim might work....I am just saying that I would be willing to try those out, they look just about perfect!!

CA_YJ

11-19-2003, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by KC_JoNeS

OK then, why dont we just build a 36" wheel and strap a rubber band to it? We would get awesome tire performance.

No one is doubting that a bigger rim is better. A 17 inch seems to be about perfect nowadays. But come on. A 22"? That is ludicrous.

You are right...

you rackin em up,i'm big paper like pancakes,stackin em up
in fact i'm slappin em up,cadillacin the truck
i can't loose with 22's bitch that's whassup

-Ludacris
:D

High5

11-19-2003, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by KC_JoNeS

OK then, why dont we just build a 36" wheel and strap a rubber band to it? We would get awesome tire performance.

No one is doubting that a bigger rim is better. A 17 inch seems to be about perfect nowadays. But come on. A 22"? That is ludicrous.

this all depends on wha size tire you run. personally i run 42" tsl's and i would not mind a 20" rim for this size tire.

KC_JoNeS

11-19-2003, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by High5

this all depends on wha size tire you run. personally i run 42" tsl's and i would not mind a 20" rim for this size tire.

A 42" tire is a big tire with alot of sidewall. I too would run a large wheel with a tire that size.

Just, for right now, with the market the way it is, I could never justify paying $1000 bucks for wheels(or more), especially when I know I will fawk em up in a couple of runs.

But, then again, if I had sponsorship and was given an opportunity to wrip it up on some 22"ers without fear of having to pay back what they are worth, I'd be in to try it.

spencurai

11-19-2003, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by KC_JoNeS

if I had sponsorship and was given an opportunity to wrip it up on some 22"ers without fear of having to pay back what they are worth, I'd be in to try it.

thats all I am trying to say!!

CA_YJ

11-19-2003, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by KC_JoNeS

A 42" tire is a big tire with alot of sidewall. I too would run a large wheel with a tire that size.

Just, for right now, with the market the way it is, I could never justify paying $1000 bucks for wheels(or more), especially when I know I will fawk em up in a couple of runs.

But, then again, if I had sponsorship and was given an opportunity to wrip it up on some 22"ers without fear of having to pay back what they are worth, I'd be in to try it.

A good set of 17's is over a grand. Cha fricken Ching. But 22's kinda limits tire options:flipoff2:

KC_JoNeS

11-19-2003, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by CA_YJ

A good set of 17's is over a grand. Cha fricken Ching. But 22's kinda limits tire options:flipoff2:

Granted, that is why I run cheapy 15x8s. Wham, bam, thank you sir, 35 bucks on the table and I dont care if I fawk up the rim.

spencurai

11-19-2003, 11:14 AM

I know swamper is moving almost every production tire into a 20" rim now...there are tons of swamper STSs on 20" rolling around my town!!

get ready for the 20" revolution!! It has already sweapt throught the ghetto...it is coming to a trailer park near you!!

whatever

11-19-2003, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by spencurai
It has already sweapt throught the ghetto...it is coming to a trailer park near you!!

:D

If you see the ZL-71 in person they look real good!! Granted they are 22's but put some beadlocks on and go wheelin!!! Also what about the 18's Cliftons ride was sportin in the Mickey Thompson booth. This is where people are goin!

desertCJ

11-19-2003, 11:25 AM

Since this has turned into a discussion about rim size....I thought I'd ask how you guys with 17"+ wheels like scraping those big blingy wheels through the rocks:flipoff2: I don't think I"ll ever run those big rims even if I'm the last guy on earth running 15's, I just don't see the point. Oh ya I know, I know..."A 37"x17" is almost the same as a 35"x15":rolleyes: Who decided that a 35" on a 15" rim was so good? Personally I like my 38.5" on 15" and I haven't noticed a good reason why I would want 17s or 20s much less 22s:rainbow:

spencurai

11-19-2003, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by desertCJ
Since this has turned into a discussion about rim size....I thought I'd ask how you guys with 17"+ wheels like scraping those big blingy wheels through the rocks:flipoff2: I don't think I"ll ever run those big rims even if I'm the last guy on earth running 15's, I just don't see the point. Oh ya I know, I know..."A 37"x17" is almost the same as a 35"x15":rolleyes: Who decided that a 35" on a 15" rim was so good? Personally I like my 38.5" on 15" and I haven't noticed a good reason why I would want 17s or 20s much less 22s:rainbow:

you just don't get it do you....

KC_JoNeS

11-19-2003, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by spencurai
we have all seen competitors rigs start to bounce on an obstacle. This is partially due to suspension configuration but it can also be attributed to sidewall wraping....it goes along the same lines as leaf spring wrap...there is a loading that occurs when the vehicle gains traction, then twists up the sidewall of the tire and then unloads causing a loss of traction....the tire is acting like a giant torque "bank" storing energy....drag racers manage this well as their sidewalls flex and slowly unload over the 1/4 mile.

With rock rigs, you don't have a nice even flat track with a nice sticky surface to unload your torque so you bounce....this can be reduced or effectively eliminated by a taller rim and shorter sidewall....

the tradeoff:

if you make your sidewall too short, you lose the ability to air down and create a significant contact patch on the surface you are trying to climb...you limit your ability to put the torque to the ground....so...if your sidewalls are too tall...you get bad performance....if your sidewalls are too short, you get undesired performance.....where is the balance? Who are we to know...17" rims seem to work, and so 15" rims....but nobody knows how well a 20 or 22" rim might work....I am just saying that I would be willing to try those out, they look just about perfect!!

IM guessing desertCJ missed this post.

CA_YJ

11-19-2003, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by spencurai

you just don't get it do you....

I guess I don't either:flipoff2:

I run 17's because I got a set of 40" MTRs and that's what I had to get. I seriously don't believe ANY of your rigs would notice the difference. For god sake you disconnect your sway bars when you wheel. Oh fuck that extra inch of sidewall is going to make me tippy on the off camber spots. :rolleyes:

It is a trend, it will grow for a while, people will follow like sheep and convince themselves they NEED bigger rims. This whole argument about lateral sidewall flex is great if you are talking about nascar but for us wheelers it is pointless.

[end rant]

Dustin Smith

11-19-2003, 11:53 AM

Someone please expalin to me how in the hell that extra inch of rim os gonna keep my sidewalls from flexing when I am running 4psi?

TexasBlake

11-19-2003, 11:59 AM

Lots of military trucks that use the 40, 48, and 53" Michelins use 20" rims. Does that mean they're in it just for bling?
:confused:

:flipoff2:

spencurai

11-19-2003, 12:17 PM

here is your explanation....

The tread can actually walk side to side on the rim....This in moderation isn't that bad but it can peel the inner bead off your rim at low PSI and it can also help you get sidewall tears too...ever hear of snake-bite sidewall tears....it is from excessive sidewall fles and lateral tread walk.....some of you rednecks are clueless!!

CA_YJ

11-19-2003, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by spencurai
here is your explanation....

The tread can actually walk side to side on the rim....This in moderation isn't that bad but it can peel the inner bead off your rim at low PSI and it can also help you get sidewall tears too...ever hear of snake-bite sidewall tears....it is from excessive sidewall fles and lateral tread walk.....some of you rednecks are clueless!!

Rednecks...maybe you are right. It is nice and sunny down here and I did forget to put sunscreen on before I went surfing this morning.:flipoff2:

Your arguments hold no weight. I am not saying it is impossible to pull an inner bead due to too much sidewall flex, but its damn close. This argument holds no weight. the tire will lift and you will roll before you blow an inner bead. The outer bead is common, but that is easily fixed by beadlocks and can happen regardless of sidewall size. I have seen one inner bead popped in my life and it would have happened if he had been running 40psi. The guy fell off a rock and hooked up with the inner bead as the rig was falling. the inner bead popped and he rolled. It had nothing to do with sidewall depth.

Snake bite tears will happen regardless. I don't care what PSI I run, I just go for a good sidewall flex. To me it doesn't matter if I was running 22's with 37's I would still want the same sidewall flex and snake bite tears would happen regardless. If you want to aviod those, run SX's:flipoff2:

(Yelling down the row of people stepping up to argue)
NEXT:p

Dustin Smith

11-19-2003, 12:30 PM

I am pretty sure that one of my primary concerns in buying a tire is how well the tires sidewall flex, and not how little.

Clueless I may be, but I still aint seeing the benefit of a rim that large, or a sidewall that short in 99.99% of any wheeling done, anywhere.

*Edited for immature conduct on my part*

ASH

11-19-2003, 12:31 PM

CA_YJ

11-19-2003, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by TexasBlake
Lots of military trucks that use the 40, 48, and 53" Michelins use 20" rims. Does that mean they're in it just for bling?
:confused:

:flipoff2:

What are you talking about. They are all about the bling :flipoff2: ...big ass tires need big ass rims for a better streetability. The same reason why semi's run 20somethings.

KC_JoNeS

11-19-2003, 12:38 PM

This is turning into a descent discussion. It is a little off topic, but nonetheless....

So, let me be more specific in my quest to find out about this grappler. Has anyone seen a 17" mud grappler in action?

Dustin Smith

11-19-2003, 12:41 PM

Done.........

It was aimed at spencurai for the clueless redneck remark....I fixed it.

redneckengineered

11-19-2003, 12:45 PM

I agree that bigger rims have an advantage but I think there is a law of diminishing returns in effect here which is apparent to me in that SEMA pic. I can't imagine making a run at a ledge with those tires and rims at low PSI and instead of the tire soaking up the impact and conforming up the ledge you get a nice rock sold hit on the rim because there isn't enough tire to soak up jack shit. Ever wonder why low profile tires ride like total ass? With those things at low PSI you'd be basically riding on the rim all day long.

CA_YJ

11-19-2003, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by redneckengineered
I agree that bigger rims have an advantage but I think there is a law of diminishing returns in effect here which is apparent to me in that SEMA pic. I can't imagine making a run at a ledge with those tires and rims at low PSI and instead of the tire soaking up the impact and conforming up the ledge you get a nice rock sold hit on the rim because there isn't enough tire to soak up jack shit. Ever wonder why low profile tires ride like total ass? With those things at low PSI you'd be basically riding on the rim all day long.

Ah yeah, bust out that econ shit baby. Personally I loke buzzing through the desert at 6psi. Its like nailing your mom on a water bed.:flipoff2: Just kidding

I do see your point though. Bottoming out on rim would really suck. Besides the fact that you would bite your tongue off, it would be a great way to crack a 10 million dollar rim;)

spencurai

11-19-2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by CA_YJ

Your arguments hold no weight. I am not saying it is impossible to pull an inner bead due to too much sidewall flex, but its damn close. This argument holds no weight. the tire will lift and you will roll before you blow an inner bead. The outer bead is common, but that is easily fixed by beadlocks and can happen regardless of sidewall size. I have seen one inner bead popped in my life and it would have happened if he had been running 40psi. The guy fell off a rock and hooked up with the inner bead as the rig was falling. the inner bead popped and he rolled. It had nothing to do with sidewall depth.

(Yelling down the row of people stepping up to argue)
NEXT:p

you are completely ignorant arent you?

The whole reason they are running 17" rims BECAUSE THE SIDEWALLS FLEXED TOO MUCH AND INNER BEADS WERE PULLING I have seen plenty of them....aggreed that the outer bead is more likely to blow but the inner can and does blow. What makes you think the inner is impervious to pulling....are you some kind of moron? The inner bead on a non-beadlock rim is held on by the exact same safety bead and pressure as the outter....you are completely clueless...is there some magical reason why the inner WONT pull....

Goodyear switched up to 17" rims BECAUSE of the sidewall flex. Radials get too much of it so you have to make the sidewalls shorter to compensate for it.

Do I need to get out the crayons for your dumb ass....You are the first redneck surfer I have had the displeasure of meeting over the internet!!!

Dustin Smith

11-19-2003, 01:38 PM

And Im the one who got in trouble for name calling?

Spencurai, the rims pictured are for nothing but Bling. If you deny that, your a damned fool. The fact is, 15, and now 17" rims have been working for a long time now. They work. !5s work just fine here, in good old white trash heaven, where all the dumb shit rednecks live. 17s work just as well, but not noticeably better, in my experience. I have never seen an inner bead blown from anything but stupidity, or 0psi, and no beadlocks. Sure, it happens, but not with enough regularity to step up to a friggin 22" rim. Please, gimme a damn break.

I can see a very small nimber of instances where this type of setup might do OK, even excel, but for you to predict the end of the 17" "fad" is pretty damned stupid, in my opinion.

Dut what the hell do I know, since I am an ignorant inbred hick from Oklahoma? Hell, I am writing this on a piece of paper that will go on a carrier pigeon to my kin-folks house who gots one of them 'puter things.

squirriljeep

11-19-2003, 01:42 PM

The whole reason they are running 17" rims BECAUSE THE SIDEWALLS FLEXED TOO MUCH AND INNER BEADS WERE PULLING I have seen plenty of them....aggreed that the outer bead is more likely to blow but the inner can and does blow. What makes you think the inner is impervious to pulling....are you some kind of moron? The inner bead on a non-beadlock rim is held on by the exact same safety bead and pressure as the outter....you are completely clueless...is there some magical reason why the inner WONT pull....

Why is it that on almost all commonly beadlocked wheels(1 pc wheel) only the outer bead is locked? Have you seen an inner bead blow when the outer is bead locked?

One would have to be blind to not see a trend in larger wheels becoming more popular a long time ago. It was/is only a matter of time before a manufacturer went/goes too far with it. I am curious to see where the trendsetters (competitors) will lead the rest of us conformers.

I personally love how my 17s/Krawlers handle on the rocks. And I definitly love how they look. Whoops! hard core guys aren't supposed to care how it looks! :flipoff2:

VT_Toy

11-19-2003, 01:52 PM

Those tires should be called Rock Grappler, not Mud Grappler. Looks like they'd pack right up in real mud :flipoff2:

CA_YJ

11-19-2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by spencurai

you are completely ignorant arent you?

The whole reason they are running 17" rims BECAUSE THE SIDEWALLS FLEXED TOO MUCH AND INNER BEADS WERE PULLING I have seen plenty of them....aggreed that the outer bead is more likely to blow but the inner can and does blow. What makes you think the inner is impervious to pulling....are you some kind of moron? The inner bead on a non-beadlock rim is held on by the exact same safety bead and pressure as the outter....you are completely clueless...is there some magical reason why the inner WONT pull....

Goodyear switched up to 17" rims BECAUSE of the sidewall flex. Radials get too much of it so you have to make the sidewalls shorter to compensate for it.

Do I need to get out the crayons for your dumb ass....You are the first redneck surfer I have had the displeasure of meeting over the internet!!!

First off, if anyone has ever pulled an inner bead due to too much sidewall flex please post up.

The inner bead is not the same as the outer on a normal rim. The inner bead is much bigger.

Actually there is a magical reason that the inner beads don't unseat. It is called gravity. Let me explain this is analytical (civil) terms unlike your stupid ass passion filled dumb fuck comments.

On flat ground there is a 90* force pushing the lip of the tire onto the rim. Gravity. As the angle of that force changes so does the vector of that force. When a rig is on a side slope the directional force is no longer perpendicular. The horizontal sidewall shift will always follow the gravitational force and this always is on the low side. Now here is where your suspension comes into play.
If your rig's chassis were hard mounted to the axles as it traveled on a side slope (driver side on the low) there would be equal pull on the outer driver bead and the inner pass. bead.
This is not the case because we have suspensions on our rigs. As we travel on a side slope the gravitational force is transferred to the low side of the vehicle as the suspension flexes. Because of this the weight transfers from the pass side to the driver side. Consequently the driver side tire has a greater lateral force on the outer bead (a function of multiplying the sign of the angle of the slope by the gravitational force) and the inner bead on the passenger side experiences less force. From a theoretical standpoint the directional force will transfer until the entire force is applied perpendicular to gravitational force and the vehicle will be parallel with the ground.
Now here is what happens in real life. As you get off camber the sidewall of the low side flexes. Your suspension begins to unload making your low side sidewall flex even more. (at your roll point)If you have beadlocks you can't pull the sidewall off the outer bead and it holds. The high side inner bead has almost no weight on it and thus NO chance of pulling the inner bead. Ever been on a side slope and pushed your rig from the high side. Yes that’s right. The inner sidewall doesn't unseat cause there is almost no weight on it.

I am trying to have a civil argument. If you are going to resort to name calling then you can quit wasting my time and go fuck yourself.
:flipoff:

Dustin Smith

11-19-2003, 02:03 PM

Ever been on a side slope and pushed your rig from the high side?

I am thinking the answer is no from him on this one. What you just aid makes perfect sense, and puts into much better words than I could have. Thank you, and I am trying to be civil, I promose!!!

CA_YJ

11-19-2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by spencurai

you are completely ignorant arent you?

The whole reason they are running 17" rims BECAUSE THE SIDEWALLS FLEXED TOO MUCH AND INNER BEADS WERE PULLING

Inner sidewalls will never pull because they flex. It defies the laws of physics.

But you are right, I am ignorant. I have never lived in your gravity defying world where inner beads can unseat due to sidewall flex.

TheTonka

11-19-2003, 02:05 PM

So can SOMEONE answer the question or does anyone know much about these Grapplers?

The tread looks pretty good for western desert terrain. I'd be interested. I have had nittos in the past and was very happy. Inexpensive and performed well. That was a set of low profiles on my Taurus SHO though.

Mike B

KC_JoNeS

11-19-2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by VT_Toy
Those tires should be called Rock Grappler, not Mud Grappler. Looks like they'd pack right up in real mud :flipoff2:

I totally agree with you on this. But, as someone stated earlier, I dont know how true it is, this tire has been pimped for awhile now and I am guessing that means a couple of years or so. I still dont know what the hold up is for releasing to the public. But the point is that the term "Rock" as in BFG Rock Crawler has not really been used for a tire name till recently. If the designers had come up with the design say last year, it might actually be called a rock grappler.

Id be interrested to see if Nitto will ever indeed try to market to the REAL wheeling community rather than the H2 and Range Rover peeps.

TexasBlake

11-19-2003, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by CA_YJ

What are you talking about. They are all about the bling :flipoff2: ...big ass tires need big ass rims for a better streetability. The same reason why semi's run 20somethings.

They still use a 20" wheel on a 40" tire. That is nearly the same amount of sidewall (or lack there of) that many people were talking about.

CA_YJ

11-19-2003, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by TexasBlake

They still use a 20" wheel on a 40" tire. That is nearly the same amount of sidewall (or lack there of) that many people were talking about.

Can't answer that one. That's the military, they just do things different.

Dustin Smith

11-19-2003, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by TexasBlake

They still use a 20" wheel on a 40" tire. That is nearly the same amount of sidewall (or lack there of) that many people were talking about.

And they run 95+psi in there tire all the tiem. Their rpimary purpose is load capacity, not traction. On the road, the less sidewall you have, the better it will handle, thats a fact.

desertCJ

11-19-2003, 03:42 PM

I know from experience that 38.5"s on 15" wheels wrap alot. Watch and learn

Ummm....I have had that combo for like 2 years clown:rolleyes: What's the problem? Works fine for me:flipoff2: Go get you some multi thousand dollar 22's so I can laugh when you mangle them on rocks! Yes there may be a SLIGHT advantage to 17s over 15s....is it enough to even notice...I don't think so.

Raptorman57

11-19-2003, 03:49 PM

I think this thread should be re-named "Wheel size debate" :p

Does anyone have any info on the tire the topic was started on?

CA_YJ

11-19-2003, 03:51 PM

I purposely air my tires down to the point that they wrap around rocks. It gives you something called........ (in slow dramatic voice).....traction...... (golf clapping):flipoff2:

CA_YJ

11-19-2003, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by raptorman57
I think this thread should be re-named "Wheel size debate" :p

Does anyone have any info on the tire the topic was started on?

If you want tire info go check out the Nitto thread....:confused:

Weasel

11-19-2003, 04:20 PM

17's are more suited to the comps where that extra edge may amke a diffrence.

In everyday wheeling it doesn't matter. 7 rigs on 15x8 followed Jason Paule(17") up Hangman during DTC and didn't have any problems due to the 15" wheels.

Raptorman57

11-19-2003, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by CA_YJ

If you want tire info go check out the Nitto thread....:confused:

The first post is usually what the thread is about ain't it? Here it is.......
.................................................. ..............................................
Are there any competitors that have been able to try out the soon-to-be-released Nitto Mud Grapplers?

We have all seen the pics of the bruiser chassis purple rig by poison spyder customs with the blingin' 18 inch wheels being pimped all over Petersen's.

But if any competitors have been given a chance to try these, post up please. Like to know some info on the tire and possible release date.

KC
.................................................. .................................................. ..

I don't know maybe I read this wrong but I thought this thread was started because he was looking for info on the tires not different wheel sizes.:confused:

The Mac

11-19-2003, 04:56 PM

I herd from a few people that have tested the new Nittos they seem to be getting mixed reviews. But they look cool.

PIG

11-19-2003, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by The Mac
I herd from a few people that have tested the new Nittos they seem to be getting mixed reviews. But they look cool.

I have heard the same thing.

CA_YJ

11-19-2003, 05:39 PM

I saw the Mt. Logan team running them. Glad I couldn't be of help:flipoff2:

porterwagner

11-19-2003, 07:14 PM

interesting thread, i like the debate. One would have to be blind to not see a trend in larger wheels becoming more popular a long time ago. VERY TRUE. Bigger is better. it looks better, but yeah, i guess looks aren't supposed to matter in the off road world. as for the tires, the little bit of sidewall looks cool. on my dd street cruiser, i'd hella put those on my ride, and you know what i'd do next, get spinners for them. helll yeah bitches!!! hahaha!!

BJ On Roids

11-19-2003, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by redneckengineered
I agree that bigger rims have an advantage but I think there is a law of diminishing returns in effect here which is apparent to me in that SEMA pic. I can't imagine making a run at a ledge with those tires and rims at low PSI and instead of the tire soaking up the impact and conforming up the ledge you get a nice rock sold hit on the rim because there isn't enough tire to soak up jack shit. Ever wonder why low profile tires ride like total ass? With those things at low PSI you'd be basically riding on the rim all day long.

especially with plastic seats, and big wheels, would give you a red rim at the end of the day! :D

f0cker

11-19-2003, 07:29 PM

Having read this entire thread, I think alot of people are just afraid of change. This pic shows it better IMO. I like the look of this, and think that eventually it will be accepted by everyone as the better design. I agree that running a 22" rim is big, and mega $$, but as it was said earlier, its still 9" of sidewall, which is just 1" shorter than a 37" or 35" Krawler. Someone said they'd smash the rims up all the time...Maybe, but I doubt it. Besides, if you're running a 22" rim you can bet your ass that they are bulletproof, just think of the people that those companies cater to. :flipoff2:

Really though, if you were to actually look into it, I'm sure that you could get a set of mega bling, mega $$, and mega strong wheels above a 20" diameter. I'd get someone to beadlock them, and go for it. You really can't say what will happen until you run them, but we can guess. My guess is that the big rim is nice to have...But that's just me.

SCOTTS_4X

11-19-2003, 08:07 PM

I want to see someone go out and cut a 1 inch tall strip out of the side wall of one of their old tires. take that in your hands and flex it. that's all the rubber/flex you're losing going from a 15 to a 17. yes boys and girls, 1 WHOLE INCH. you think it's goin gto make a difference? I think not. now going from 15's to 20's or 22's, that's a whole different story.

-Scott

k5ryanNC

11-19-2003, 08:37 PM

i do have to add it would be easier to balance the tires (even though the hardcore crowd doesn't balance at all-"i'm a speed freak"anyway)

plus you don't have to grind on our dana 60 calipers to fit 15" wheels with 2 1/2 inches of backspacing????witch results in less stoping force due to caliper flex...

and theyd be real easy to clean the mud out after wheelin for the 3 to 4 hour trip home...i like dd that can wheel hard too.....

i remember alot of people said that any tire bigger than a 35 on a jeep was stupid...
i remember alot of people said that a dand 60 was to heavy...
i remember alot of people said you couldn't brake a 60....
i remember alot of people said you couldn't brake a rockwell....

i remember alot of people said.......

times change with the limits......we keep changing "the terrain we drive though instead of hike....and drive up stuff you can't hike up"

i just like to keep my opinions open to anything that might give some extra edge in the offroad world....

innovation never came without the "that won't work or the earth is flat stupid..........

and just for shitz and giggles ask your (girlfriend/wife if a couple inches matter?) ha ha ha ha
just food for thought
:flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Azrckcrawler

11-20-2003, 05:20 AM

Originally posted by CA_YJ

First off, if anyone has ever pulled an inner bead due to too much sidewall flex please post up.

The inner bead is not the same as the outer on a normal rim. The inner bead is much bigger.

Actually there is a magical reason that the inner beads don't unseat. It is called gravity. Let me explain this is analytical (civil) terms unlike your stupid ass passion filled dumb fuck comments.

I have seen a lot of inner beads unseat, but I wheel a lot. I know a guy who started building up the inner & outer beads with fiberglass to make a tighter fit. He was tired of losing inner beads at the dunes (twin turbo V8 in a Willy's). I lost both beads the other weekend in Parker after a roll and a couple weekends ago pmurf1 lost an inner bead after we got off the trail (he has beadlocks). Maybe the gravity is lower here in Az :confused:

U_SAY_GO

11-20-2003, 06:36 AM

Ok, so who's gonna be the first guy to show in competition......

Complete and obstacle.............

Come to a stop.............

And the wheels keep spinnin. :eek:

Watch out boys......Ghetto (err maybe trailer park) R$ch is comin to a mud pit near you!!!!!

I think the SEMA pics are SWEEEEEEET! I do have to agree that it looks like a good way to trash some very $$$$$ wheels though.

spencurai

11-20-2003, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler

I have seen a lot of inner beads unseat, but I wheel a lot. I know a guy who started building up the inner & outer beads with fiberglass to make a tighter fit. He was tired of losing inner beads at the dunes (twin turbo V8 in a Willy's). I lost both beads the other weekend in Parker after a roll and a couple weekends ago pmurf1 lost an inner bead after we got off the trail (he has beadlocks). Maybe the gravity is lower here in Az :confused:

I respect AZ's wheeling experience above all else....

Dustin Smith

11-20-2003, 10:12 AM

Because he agrees with you? He mentioned inner beads unseating in the sand and after a roll. Neither of these are gonna be solved by the super-short sidewall. Double beadlocks will help, and sometimes, there isnt a dman thing you can do about it.

BobWilliams

11-20-2003, 10:15 AM

everybody just calm down those tires are not production tires and you will not see them anytime soon hell if nitto cant even release the 18" tires that they have had out for over 2 years then what makes you think your going to see them on the con next weekend. I have no clue what their excuse is for not releasing the 18s yet but we are not the market for them trust me they are for the street market and dont care about us. you can bitch all you want about the 20 or 22" craze but thats whats next and keep your eyes open because your buddy cant waite to order his.

coyote11

11-20-2003, 10:22 AM

Let me start by saying I read the posts somewhere into the 2 page and then thought I'd kick this out and be done with it. Too many people getting too intense about some ugly wheels and tires nobody seems to know much about anyways.

I spoke with Clifton about the Grapplers he had on Petunia at a meet and great here in Colorado. Bear in mind these were the 18 inchers. I just walked up and asked how he liked them, his answer pretty much like this: They seem to grip pretty well, the low profile of the tire lets you drive the rig on the street more agressively. On the trail they do ok , but bombing around on them offroad will rattle your teeth pretty good. They are more for show if only for the fact that the lower profile is more sport oriented and do not offer enough sidewall flex to allow a comfortable ride.

I just thought it may help to hear what was said about the tire itself.

I don't like the way they look, but I think they'd be fine for a show truck/pavement pounder. I don't believe they have a place off road. I like the idea of 40's on a 17 inch rim, but I have no experience with them.

KC_JoNeS

11-20-2003, 10:32 AM

I sent an email to some Nitto reps asking about fitment. I asked if the tire would be available in any wheel size smaller than an 18". I will post up with the results and expected release date as soon as the rep returns my email.

Also, here is an interactive place to see the tire and its tread and sidewall. Regardless of what all others say, I like its agressive tread and its sidewall is supposedly pretty stout as well. If it were offered in a 35 on a 15" wheel, I would go for a set.

Nitto Mud Grappler (http://www.nittotire.com/tires_mudgrappler.asp)

edit: looking at the Terra Grapplers, it seems the smallest wheel size available is a 16". I would bet that the Muds would be the same fitment.

Azrckcrawler

11-20-2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Dustin Smith
Because he agrees with you? He mentioned inner beads unseating in the sand and after a roll. Neither of these are gonna be solved by the super-short sidewall. Double beadlocks will help, and sometimes, there isnt a dman thing you can do about it.

Actually those three instances are from the last 3 weeks, kinda disproves the "magic" theory the one guy was spouting from his orfice. I have no opinion on a super short sidewall, never tried them. On the 37" Claws, 15" vs 17", the 17's do perform better in some instances thanks to the stiffer sidewall, saw proof of that in Colorado. However, if you go to the other extreme, a 46" claw on a 15" rim, it just rolls over everything with ease anyway so who knows :confused:

spencurai

11-20-2003, 03:46 PM

are the claws bias ply or radial? Those things just sound huge!!

thank you for shedding some REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE on the subject. All this back and forth is worthless until tire hits the rock.

spencurai

11-21-2003, 05:58 AM

Originally posted by CA_YJ

Actually there is a magical reason that the inner beads don't unseat. It is called gravity. Let me explain this is analytical (civil) terms unlike your stupid ass passion filled dumb fuck comments.

On flat ground there is a 90* force pushing the lip of the tire onto the rim. Gravity. As the angle of that force changes so does the vector of that force. When a rig is on a side slope the directional force is no longer perpendicular. The horizontal sidewall shift will always follow the gravitational force and this always is on the low side. Now here is where your suspension comes into play.
If your rig's chassis were hard mounted to the axles as it traveled on a side slope (driver side on the low) there would be equal pull on the outer driver bead and the inner pass. bead.
This is not the case because we have suspensions on our rigs. As we travel on a side slope the gravitational force is transferred to the low side of the vehicle as the suspension flexes. Because of this the weight transfers from the pass side to the driver side. Consequently the driver side tire has a greater lateral force on the outer bead (a function of multiplying the sign of the angle of the slope by the gravitational force) and the inner bead on the passenger side experiences less force. From a theoretical standpoint the directional force will transfer until the entire force is applied perpendicular to gravitational force and the vehicle will be parallel with the ground.
Now here is what happens in real life. As you get off camber the sidewall of the low side flexes. Your suspension begins to unload making your low side sidewall flex even more. (at your roll point)If you have beadlocks you can't pull the sidewall off the outer bead and it holds. The high side inner bead has almost no weight on it and thus NO chance of pulling the inner bead. Ever been on a side slope and pushed your rig from the high side. Yes that’s right. The inner sidewall doesn't unseat cause there is almost no weight on it.

I am trying to have a civil argument. If you are going to resort to name calling then you can quit wasting my time and go fuck yourself.
:flipoff:

that is all fine and dandy for low speed side hills....but is that all we do in offroading? are all our forces static....NO....are our tires spinning and encountering different forces as we strive to complete an obstacle...not every obstacle is a nice smooth sidehill....you just don't get it. you think your explanations are blanket fact...listen to the real world experience....you cant' explain every variable in an obstacle with that little ditty....are not even listening to me when I am saying I have seen several beads pull in competetion and on the trail....Azcrawler is saying he has seen it.....get a clue dude....your arguement holds out rolling slowly across a sidehill, after that, you got holes man....get a clue!!:rolleyes:

KC_JoNeS

11-21-2003, 09:24 AM

This is the bullshit response that I got from the Nitto company website.

"> Thank you for taking the time to email us!
Any of our authorized dealers should be able to assist you with any
pricing/sizing /availability/specification issues that you may have.

You can find a local Nitto dealer by using our dealer search at:
www.nittotire.com

If the dealer is unable to resolve the issue in a timely fashion, please
feel free to contact us.

You can also try contacting Discount Tires Direct at
www.discounttiredirect.com.

> Please contact us if you have any more questions or comments.
>
> Nitto Tire Customer Support
> www.nittotire.com"

This basically means that they have no friggin' clue.

I give up.

klif02

11-21-2003, 07:25 PM

On the subject of the inner bead comming off, I work at a tire store, not one tire has been different from the following: The inner bead take at LEAST twice as much force from a bead breaker to get it off. the outer bead could be knocked off at 0psi by jumping on it (I weigh 140 lbs. But the inner bead is a different story. Just though I would chime in.

CA_YJ

11-21-2003, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by spencurai

that is all fine and dandy for low speed side hills....but is that all we do in offroading? are all our forces static....NO....are our tires spinning and encountering different forces as we strive to complete an obstacle...not every obstacle is a nice smooth sidehill....you just don't get it. you think your explanations are blanket fact...listen to the real world experience....you cant' explain every variable in an obstacle with that little ditty....are not even listening to me when I am saying I have seen several beads pull in competetion and on the trail....Azcrawler is saying he has seen it.....get a clue dude....your arguement holds out rolling slowly across a sidehill, after that, you got holes man....get a clue!!:rolleyes:

Dude go back to school and lear about universal laws that goven the WORLD. It is possible, but happens vary rarely. I will say though IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PULL AN INNER BEAD ON A SMOOTH SIDESLOPE. What you are refering to is when you get off camber, slide sideways and the inner bead catches a rock, tries to hold the weight of the vehicle down and is forced off. This is an entirely different situation and is EXTREMELY RARE.

FOR THOSE OF YOU READING THIS IF YOU HAVE EVER PULLED AN INNER BEAD PLEASE POST UP.