I sent Roggy the design and he sent back some sweet hi-steer arms :D Thanks Bob! This is especially useful for those of us in the CJ/YJ crowd who encounter drag-link / tie-rod interference after moving the front axle forward. With these arms that problem is a thing of the past :D

http://colorado4x4.org/er/histeer/Mvc-011f.jpg

Some more pics can be found here: http://colorado4x4.org/er/histeer

Edit 12/19/01: More pics can be found here:
http://colorado4x4.org/er/histeer/more_images

The arms are mirror-image using the GM stud pattern and I intend to attach hydro-assist to the front of the driver's side arm.

Itemized info:
Arms manufactured by Roggy Enterprises (530)626-9451, 1" thick steel sitting on a 1" steel spacer. GM stud pattern.

Studs are from ARP, 4.1" in length, UNF on one end and UNC on the other, just over $5 a piece if I remember correctly. I posted on here a short while ago with the part number, contact info, etc.

Grade 8 nuts came from McMaster-Carr, $10 and change for a box of 10.

Cone washers are stock GM, I don't recall the part number.

Tie-rod and drag link were made by Rockstomper who also loaned me their camera to take these pics (Thanks Scott!!). Rockstomper can be found at http://www.rockstomper.com

I've released the drawing to Bob Roggy and Rockstomper, whether they decide to offer these for sale or not is up to them. Contact them if interested, but afaik these are the only two in existence so I'll try and answer any questions that I can.

BTW, it may not be apparant in the pics but the top caliper mounting bolt is still above the arm, so the caliper pops off as easy as ever, ie. no interference. There was some minor grinding required on the caliper for clearance, but I assure you it's minor (excess material removed near the upper mount). You can sorta see in the closeup pic (pic #6). Any other questions fire away.

:flipoff2:

EDIT:
Here's the thread with the stud info (scroll to the bottom):
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6433

SWEET!!!!! :D

KICK ASS!!

Those arms look sweet :D

I was thinking that would be a great idea a couple of weeks ago when I figuring out some steering changes.
Great idea,
Looks awsome.
Im gonna have to give Bob a call for sure.

Awesome set-up! No more tacoing the tie-rod on little rocks!

How much are the Arms? Have you mounted the ram yet? I wann see it "mounted".....I might do this myself if I like the final "look"......good job so far though....What type of springs are those?.....What type of "pitman arm' do you have on that box? Is it the 'Ford' 4 in. one?

nice work eric....i'll bet that the drawings were even autocad :D

Eric -

Did you mill the top of the knuckle perpendicular to the spindle mounting surface?

Those are some nice arms! Do you have any issues with the arms limiting steering? :skull:

Originally posted by Shaker
How much are the Arms?

I'll leave that to Bob and Scott. What I paid for the prototype arms and what they decide to charge for production might be significantly different.

Have you mounted the ram yet? I wann see it "mounted"

No, the ram is currently sitting on my workbench :D I'll post pics again down the road when I have the ram installed.

What type of springs are those?.....What type of "pitman arm' do you have on that box? Is it the 'Ford' 4 in. one?

The springs are BDS 2" YJ springs with a leaf added in back and two added up front. Pitman arm is stock YJ.


Originally posted by the Rainbow Warrior
i'll bet that the drawings were even autocad :D

Solidworks actually :flipoff2: Here's a pic of the rendered solid models LOL:
http://www.colorado4x4.org/er/new_arms.jpg

Originally posted by the Ranger
Do you have any issues with the arms limiting steering?

None whatsoever. Knuckle hardstop hits just before the arm hits the knuckle. This is obviously relative depending on where you set your hardstops, but nothing a little "finesse grinding" of the arms couldn't address :D The battery died on the camera before I could get a pic of it at full turning lock, I'll try to post a pic of that soon.

:beer:

WOW that looks really bad ass I may have to do the same thing on my 44. I really like the design looks like it sould work great.

I wonder if it would work on a rev cut 44.....

Originally posted by Ben W
Eric -

Did you mill the top of the knuckle perpendicular to the spindle mounting surface?

Oops, I missed this one. Yes, I machined my knuckles perpendicular to the spindle mounting surface. My knuckles were rough-cast Waggy knuckles so I could do this. If you're using a GM style knuckle with the angled mounting surface then you might want to request the arms be twisted to account for and correct that angle. I don't have immediate access to a GM style 44 so I don't know how it affects the design. I've left that up to Bob and Scott :flipoff2:



Originally posted by Lance
I wonder if it would work on a rev cut 44.....

Similarly without access to one I can't say one way or the other. As best I can recall there is about an inch clearance between the bottom of my tie-rod and the top of the spring pack, but obviously that's a relative measurement depending out how tall your spring perch is, how thick the spring pack is, and if the housing has been rotated or not, etc. etc. Worst case I'd think would be to have Bob bend up the rear portion enough to clear the pinion. That's my best guess anyway :beer:

Why don't you copyright those? If you already have those in a CAD program it shouldn't be too hard. That's a really kick ass design to just be letting someone else copyright and make money off of.

Nice job

Originally posted by FattyCBR
Why don't you copyright those? If you already have those in a CAD program it shouldn't be too hard. That's a really kick ass design to just be letting someone else copyright and make money off of.

Nah, I already got what I wanted... the rest is just an effort to help some friends with small businesses and to offer a steering solution that others may benefit from. Plus Bob and Scott both do kickass work and are great to deal with so handing the design off to them is a way of saying thanks. If Bob and/or Scott get a lot of business from the design then hopefully they'll give me a discount or a free hat or something in the future :beer: :flipoff2: :beer:

Eric,

That is a really nice design, great work.

Do you mind if I add a pictue or 2 and description to my growing d44 Hi Steer reference page:

http://billavista.tripod.com/Steering/Research/steeringresearch.html

VERY cool! I have been having problems with my tie rod and drag link wanting to be in the same place at the same time, this would solve it for sure! Nice work!!!!

Originally posted by Eric Ruhl


Nah, I already got what I wanted... the rest is just an effort to help some friends with small businesses and to offer a steering solution that others may benefit from. Plus Bob and Scott both do kickass work and are great to deal with so handing the design off to them is a way of saying thanks. If Bob and/or Scott get a lot of business from the design then hopefully they'll give me a discount or a free hat or something in the future :beer: :flipoff2: :beer:

Too bad more people do not have the same attitude as you.

Why the difference in tie rod ends?
http://colorado4x4.org/er/histeer/Mvc-005f.jpg

and waht type of goofy belt you going to run butween that alternator and the rest of the pullys? :eek:

So I went out and looked at my rig to see if this would work for my set up and I see no reason why it wouldnt.

My studs however are not long enough for a 1 inch spacer, but I could fit a 0.5 inch spacer. My springs are stock yjs (on a sami) so they are pretty flat, I doesnt look like I need much to clear the pack, do you need it to clear the caliper?

hmmmm sounds perfect fer my TJ... wonder if it will work around a coil?

looks like tie rod ends from a tie rod application on the tie rod
and tie rod ends from a draglink application on the drag link

Those arms are badass. I need those!!

WOW.. Nice Job on those arms... And to think, I was just contemplating steering for my newly aquired D44.. guess I'll have to give Roggy and Rockstomper a call.. to see what we can come up with.. wonder how much it would be for all of it.. including the tie rod and D link...
Scott :grinpimp:<><

thanks Eric, i'm glad they worked out for you. if anybodies interested the arms/spacer will sell for around $175 each

Bob-is the spacer available in 0.5 inch or does it need to 1.0 to work. I'm running stock yj springs and don't want to mess with my studs. Nice work!

Originally posted by BillaVista
Do you mind if I add a pictue or 2 and description to my growing d44 Hi Steer reference page:

Go for it :beer:

Originally posted by CJ
waht type of goofy belt you going to run butween that alternator and the rest of the pullys? :eek:

LOL I haven't swapped the pulley on the alternator yet :D

Why the difference in tie rod ends?
Originally posted by MJ
looks like tie rod ends from a tie rod application on the tie rod
and tie rod ends from a draglink application on the drag link

Bingo :beer:

Originally posted by scwafish
My studs however are not long enough for a 1 inch spacer, but I could fit a 0.5 inch spacer. My springs are stock yjs (on a sami) so they are pretty flat, I doesnt look like I need much to clear the pack, do you need it to clear the caliper?

See the bottom of my initial post, the longer studs aren't all that expensive. The spacer is needed to clear the caliper and 1/2" won't do it without some serious grindage. I'll get some more pics tonight and I'll try to remember to take one showing the clearance between the caliper and steering arm. You might be able to get Bob to bend up the rear portion and that in combination with the 1/2" spacer might work, but that's for you and Bob to discuss / try :flipoff2:

Bob, you rock :D Did you get my emails? Let me know if you need anything else.

Thanks, I'm not worried so much about the cost of studs, more concerned about the hassle of getting them out. The knuckle were new, and I cleaned everything, and used plenty of locktite. I'm afraid getting them out will be a real beotch.

Not a bad price on those arms... Bob, I'll be contacting you when Im ready to go hi steer on the yj..
Scott

I don't intend to open a can of worms... but did you purposely attempt to maintain the stock Ackerman? Looks like it in the picture, except the kingpin inclination and the angle the photo was taken make it hard to tell.
Just curious I guess. :)

I hope they did better then 'stock' ackerman

Originally posted by mj
I hope they did better then 'stock' ackerman

Why? Do you do lots of road racing at 80+mph?

Whats's the advantage with this setup (tierod behind the axle), compared to an ordinary high steer? I mean, you still have the dragling in a vulnerable position... I'm not trying to be ironic or anything, I'm just plain curious and I admit it looks sweet!

I guess double tierods, behind and in front of axle, would make a beefy setup. But on the other hand, any adjustments to the toe in/out would be *@£€*@£*!

Originally posted by ErikB
I don't intend to open a can of worms... but did you purposely attempt to maintain the stock Ackerman? Looks like it in the picture, except the kingpin inclination and the angle the photo was taken make it hard to tell.
Just curious I guess. :)

Likely it's the angle of the photo playing tricks on you. No consideration whatsoever was given to the stock Waggy ackerman angle. The ackerman was set according to my wheelbase and front axle width. The arrow you drew points to the center of my rear axle. Also keep in mind that the tires don't rotate about the upper ball joint... they rotate about a point midway between the upper and lower ball joints which are not directly above each other. So, the line for ackerman goes just outside the upper ball joint, just inside the lower ball joint, thru the TRE and passes thru the center of the rear axle. Note the position of the drag link end which is as close to the tire as you'd want to get in a histeer config. This is the more common hi-steer TRE location with the tie-rod in front and the ackerman would be way off. The "stock" location is off as well. Ackerman has been beat to death on here over the years and in short, it's no big deal if you're off... even a lot. However, if you have the opportunity to make it better then I say "why not?" so I did. :D


Originally posted by Patrik
Whats's the advantage with this setup (tierod behind the axle), compared to an ordinary high steer? I mean, you still have the dragling in a vulnerable position... I'm not trying to be ironic or anything, I'm just plain curious and I admit it looks sweet!

Well first off, as you mention now the drag link is the only vulnerable component instead of both being vulnerable. Also, in some situations like the CJ/YJ case I mentioned above, moving the axle forward causes interference between the tie-rod and the drag-link. A poplular solution is to use a shorter pitman arm which unfortunately reduces your steering throw, or a more aggressive solution is to move the steering box forward (not always practical). The interference issue was my motivation for these arms. I tried the standard approach and the tie-rod hit the drag-link during flex. I guess a hydro-assist setup could be mounted in front or behind if that's a benefit to anyone. These are the reasons I can think of anyway, any others come to mind?

It's not all roses either though. If you look at the load distribution at the passenger-side ball joints for a standard config with drag-link and tie-rod both in front vs drag-link in front and tie-rod behind, you'll find that the load is approximately tripled when the tie-rod is in back. This might cause the ball joint to wear sooner. Placing a hydro-assist cylinder on the driver's side addresses this in addition to the usual hydro-assist benefits but isn't a "must have". I'm adding it for the typical benefits.

Plus there's the "coolness factor" of having something different :flipoff2: LOL


Oh, and double tie-rods would be a mistake... they would bind.

Plus there's the "coolness factor" of having something different

Suuuure! I'll just pretend I've never seem a Range Rover or a MB Galendewagen :flipoff2:

Speaking of which - Have you eyebaled their setup in relation to:

It's not all roses either though. If you look at the load distribution at the passenger-side ball joints for a standard config with drag-link and tie-rod both in front vs drag-link in front and tie-rod behind, you'll find that the load is approximately tripled when the tie-rod is in back. This might cause the ball joint to wear sooner.

Then again....I think they're both closed knuckle stock so that's not much help probably....I'm just rambling.

Sweet setup

are you worried that the tie rod might hit the motor?

Originally posted by Eric Ruhl
Ackerman has been beat to death on here over the years and in short, it's no big deal if you're off... even a lot. However, if you have the opportunity to make it better then I say "why not?" so I did. :D


I know it has, thats why I was hesitant to even bring it up. :p
I was just curious how or if you had considered it. :)

Anyway, looks like a good setup. It would definitely solve the tie rod / drag link interference issues I would have if I tried to go hi-steer, but I may have other clearance issues...

Originally posted by BillaVista
Speaking of which - Have you eyebaled their setup in relation to:


Actually I haven't but sounds like I should? I've seen this setup on D60's but I hadn't seen it on a 44 before. Thanks for the info, I'll try and check into it. :beer:

Originally posted by xextr3m3
are you worried that the tie rod might hit the motor?

Not even the slightest, I have gobs of room under my engine even though I mounted it 1" lower than stock. Unless you're currently concerned about your axle housing hitting your motor you likely have nothing to worry about with the tie-rod because it's only a couple inches above the housing.

Why? Do you do lots of road racing at 80+mph?

ackerman doesnt help much at 80mph.
read a road race book.
they say ackerman is only useful for tight slow turns like parking lots.
sounds more like 4x4ing then road racing.
ackerman gets both tires providing useful traction rather then fighting each other in tight turns

Once again "Slide Ruhl" you are the man!!! Very nice setup!!

Now you just need someone to "test" it for you. :D:D:D

http://colorado4x4.org/er/histeer/more_images/Mvc-010f.jpg

A few more pics can be found here:
http://colorado4x4.org/er/histeer/more_images

There's a view for each turning limit, one showing the clearance between the spring and tie-rod (a relative measurement of course), a view of the clearance under the steering arm showing clearance above the caliper (of particular interest to you scwafish), a shot with the caliper removed, and a pic showing where I shaved the caliper a tad to provide ample clearance for caliper movement. Oh, in one of the views you can see the clearance between the oil pan and the tie-rod too if you're curious but again that's a relative distance. Hopefully these images address the concerns and questions that were brought up but if not feel free to ask away and I'll do what I can to answer. You have until tomorrow and then I'll be out of touch until the new year :D

A big thanks again to Scott at Rockstomper for allowing me to borrow his digital camera (fully charged this time :flipoff2: lol)


Putz, I hope to bring this beast back to life before the end of January :D :D :D Gettin' close finally! :beer:

Anybody got some of these arms made for the D60 front axles? I'm very interested in some for my K30. (I know this topic is geared away from the D60, but....)

So, show me or guide me to some links or pics of the D60 arm.

Yeah, yeah, I'm ready for any flaming, too. Guess my "newbie" title gives me away!!:rolleyes:

Originally posted by thatK30guy
So, show me or guide me to some links or pics of the D60 arm.



Ant makes some sweet D60 arms:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18727

Wow!! Those are some BEEFY arms!!:eek:

Thanks for letting me know about those! :cool:

Originally posted by mj

ackerman gets both tires providing useful traction rather then fighting each other in tight turns

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=6393&highlight=ackerman

Eric-Picture 7 does tell the story! Thanks for the excellent follow thru, can you order those studs directly from ARP, or does Roggy have them? This is the way I'm going to have to go to make it all work. Thanks again.:)

thanks Lance, but I was aware of that thread having posted in it.
ackerman is the only reason to go rear tie rod

Originally posted by mj
ackerman is the only reason to go rear tie rod


Wrong, drag-link / tie-rod interference was my primary reason. The fact that the tie-rod is better protected is an added bonus.

Scwafish, I ordered mine direct from ARP (link to all info in initial post). Bob has the stud info but I don't know if he plans to stock them or not. You'll have to ask him about that. Glad the pic helped :beer:

very cool