In a recent Autoweek article Ford said they wanted to be first to put a smaller sized diesel into the F-150. It would likely be a Navistar right? WRONG

"But it's unclear where Ford would get a diesel engine for its trucks. Given the expense of designing one, Ford most likely would buy one from a supplier. And that's where things get messy.

International Truck and Engine Corp. already supplies Ford with the 6.0-liter PowerStroke engine used in the F-series Super Duty trucks, but that engine has encountered major quality problems.

This year, Ford repurchased at least 500 trucks suffering from severe engine malfunctions caused by the fuel injection system. Ford also encountered problems with the turbocharger and engine computer.

The new PowerStroke's flawed launch is the major reason for bad blood between Ford and International Truck.

Last year, Ford abruptly canceled plans to buy International Truck's 4.5-liter diesel V-6 for the new F-150. International Truck swallowed a $170 million charge to cover the cost of engine development and factory tooling.

The company later received compensation from Ford. Terms of the settlement were not disclosed.

Martens has ruled out new contracts with International Truck. "We stopped work with International on the V-6," Martens says. "Right now, there are no plans to restart that work."

Martens did not indicate why Ford killed the V-6 deal. But it is believed that the engine was too costly and would not have met future pollution standards. Ford also may have been concerned about the emissions system's durability. "


The article indicates Detroit :( and Cummins :D are the two most likely candidates. It wouldn't be a tow rig but a diesel F-150 would be great to fart around in.

Bullshit.:rolleyes:

Detroit has had a V6 turbo engine for a few years now. Can't remember the designation, but I remember it being showcased in a Durango. They did their own developement and no one every picked it up.

I remeber the Detroit engines pegged for the Dakpta and Durango, pretty cool. I simply aint bying that Ford is "fed up" with Navisatar over the lack of quality control. Its as much Fords fault as Navistar. What I do find odd is that the VT366 has been doing just fine in Navistars Heavy models, and they are supposed to be crap in the Fords.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Dustin Smith
I remeber the Detroit engines pegged for the Dakpta and Durango, pretty cool. I simply aint bying that Ford is "fed up" with Navisatar over the lack of quality control. Its as much Fords fault as Navistar. What I do find odd is that the VT366 has been doing just fine in Navistars Heavy models, and they are supposed to be crap in the Fords.:rolleyes:

Could it be because Navistar builds a good motor, but ford screwes it up by trying to do the electonics?:rolleyes:

I would have to agree with that statement, and I am a Ford guy.

Originally posted by jp junkie


Could it be because Navistar builds a good motor, but ford screwes it up by trying to do the electonics?:rolleyes:

The problems are calibration problems which would be 100% Ford's fault. For comparison the highest output Navistar DT 365 puts out 230HP@2600RPM, 620Lb-Ft@1400RPM, governed at 2800RPM. The Ford PS puts out 325HP@3300, 560Lb-Ft@2000RPM, governed at 4200RPM. Hardly the specifications that Navistar have any use for nor interest in supporting. That and the lack of diesel savvy mechanics at most Ford dealerships add up to a nightmare.

I think international as a whole has been going into the shitter lately. This fall we ordered a new 4400, with the DT466 high torque, 250hp and 800ft-lbs. when it was FOUR days old, it shit its pants on the road, and was towed in to the dealer, they said the problem was a injector, and replaced it. 2 days later, it started powering smoke as black as coal, and then burnt through a piston..

Now, it strikes me as odd that a 6 day old truck, with about 700 miles on it needs a new motor.. After we have had it back now for 2 months, it has been great though, and goes like a bat out of hell.

Well, what I'd like to see is how the IH dt365 (their version of the 6.0) fair in the reliability department. So far as I know, the IH engines haven't had the same trouble the ford units have, leading me to beilive it's ford's electronics / specifications that are causing problems, not the IH design. Personally, my take is that ford insisted on being able to greater power for pr reasons, and said screw reliabilty. As jason stated, the IH ratings on the same powerplant are vastly diffent, and since IH designed it, I'd think they're specs probably reflect it's cababilities more accuratgly. But, I recently found out that even the old 6.9/7.3 idi's were rated a bit diffent by IH, and ford's version had proved it's self to be just as good. So, my conclusion on the whole mess is that it's a combination of ford pushing p/r too much, and also the usual teething problems of a new engine.
-John

Whether it's true or not, I'd sure like a Cummins in my Ford.

I think it's pretty funny how ford has to push the limits of their "benchmark" product, while Dodge has to seriously detune the Cummins...

You can be sure the 6.0 is not at its limits. I happen to love the one i drive for work and will replace my 7.3 with a 6.0 truck as soon as i can afford to. As i've said before the people putting down the 6.0 dont own one.

Originally posted by jasonmt


The problems are calibration problems which would be 100% Ford's fault. For comparison the highest output Navistar DT 365 puts out 230HP@2600RPM, 620Lb-Ft@1400RPM, governed at 2800RPM. The Ford PS puts out 325HP@3300, 560Lb-Ft@2000RPM, governed at 4200RPM. Hardly the specifications that Navistar have any use for nor interest in supporting. That and the lack of diesel savvy mechanics at most Ford dealerships add up to a nightmare.


That, and some other info is what made my decision to go with Dodge and the Cummins diesel for my tow rig.

I would agree with SDCJ. That is why I also chose the CTD for my truck. DIdn't want to have any problems creep up.

Daren

That 6.0 looks like a gas motor inside! Seems like they want it to run like a gas motor so soccer moms don't have to learn how to drive a real truck :flipoff2:

Originally posted by robobx
I think it's pretty funny how ford has to push the limits of their "benchmark" product, while Dodge has to seriously detune the Cummins...

Wow alot of detuning going on:

ISB: 300HP and 660 ftlbs of torque.

Dodge: 305HP and 555 ftlbs of torque.

Originally posted by eurobob


Wow alot of detuning going on:

ISB: 300HP and 660 ftlbs of torque.

Dodge: 305HP and 555 ftlbs of torque.


As opposed to the ford..

6.0 PSD: 325HP and 560ftlbs

VT365: 230HP and 620ftlbs

And which motor has been around longer?:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Jrod-13



As opposed to the ford..

6.0 PSD: 325HP and 560ftlbs

VT365: 230HP and 620ftlbs

And which motor has been around longer?:rolleyes:

whatever....navistar builds good motors. ford took a good motor and fawked it up.

that said.........i drive a cummins.

I think you misread what I meant. I was implying that The 6.0 is turned down(torque wise) for use in superdutys, just like the cummins is. When I said "look which has been around longer" I was refering to that when the 6.0 has as many years under its belt as the 5.9, it will probably have as good of a reputation.
And I know navistar makes good engines, we have 3 of them in our driveway.

Originally posted by eurobob


Wow alot of detuning going on:

ISB: 300HP and 660 ftlbs of torque.

Dodge: 305HP and 555 ftlbs of torque.

That spec. is for R.V. applications. Not an apple to apple comparison - check out the different warranty for the R.V. and Medium Truck lines for the ISB.

Originally posted by jasonmt


That spec. is for R.V. applications. Not an apple to apple comparison - check out the different warranty for the R.V. and Medium Truck lines for the ISB.

Ok, use the ratings for the medium and heavy duty truck engine, 260 HP and 660 ftlbs of torque. I used the higher ratings (that are also for fire trucks and school buses.)

http://www.cummins.com/na/pages/en/products/trucks/isb.cfm#rate_isb

That means that Dodge is cranking out more, just like Ford.

It's all fawkin hype, I remember a time when all the Chevy guys were gossiping about GM buying the rights to Cummins, or Cat. If you guys believe anything an car salesman tells ya, I got a bridge you can buy. :flipoff2:

Originally posted by eurobob
Whether it's true or not, I'd sure like a Cummins in my Ford.
you can get a cummins in a ford,cat too.just have to step up a bit.but the cummins still has its problems.



the 6.0's problems are caused by ford wanting the high numbers as said earlier.if you look at the old 7.3 #'s in F2-350's compaired to F6-750's(which are more controled by international) they are really different.bumping up line pressures and posting the highest hp is sadly what sells trucks these days.

and as far as I know one of the high ups from the dealership im at has seen one of the diesel f150's.i'm sure they won't come out for a while after the 6 liters problems.

Originally posted by Dan 0

but the cummins still has its problems.



without talking about the VP44.......please build on this, assuming your talking about the ISB line of motors.

I don't care what brand of truck you drive. If you pay up to 40K for a new truck, it should run well and not be a lemon. IMHO, the 6.0 powerjoke is a LEMON. The Cummins in the new 03 and 04 trucks have very little problem compared to the 6.0 PSD. I'm sure if there were any major problems with it, we would have heard it from the Ford camp long time ago...

Also, when you consider that you can get a Cat or Cummins ISB motor as an option in the F650 and F750 truck, it makes you wonder what Ford thinks about their PSD motors.

No thanks, I'll keep my Cummins.

Once again someone puts down the 6.0 without personal experiance.

A buddy of mine has a CTD in a 99? 3/4 ton Dodge...
At about 110K he shit an injector pump. $3K to have fixed.
Yes, he is anal about maint. Yes he had a lift pump pres. gauge on it. Yes, the immortal CTD can die... My PSD has given me no problems.
His Tranny (auto) has also been shit from day one.
Mine (auto) has never given me any problem.

I bought the Ford cuz I'm a Ford guy....
But, I did look at the Dodge (never even thought about a GM)
I wanted a crew cab (not available from Dodge when I bought)
I wanted SRW ( not available from Dodge)

Love my truck...
If you love yours... More power to ya.

I could give a shit if anyone has 20 more HP than me or 20 more Ft/Lbs. As long as I can tow my junk and drive to work.
Drag racin' is for cars..... And if we all wanted to pull a house we would drive a Mack or some such.

EVERY companies marketing guys are full of it and make claims that are not really true or time shows to be wrong.


My fingers hurt:D Off my soap box now.

We have 03 F450 cab/chassis w/ 6.0 PSD on our ambulances at work. They overall provide good service and power considering they are abused everyday! Driving at WOT immediatly after a cold start, hauling around 13-14K pounds on mountain roads and freeways. Lately, though, 2 of them have sucked 3-4 injectors and others have lost considerable power. Granted they aren't treated the greatest, but they only have about 15-20K miles on them and numerous problems are starting to happen. I'm a Ford guy so I would quick to defend them but just my experience with the new PSD.

A lot of Ford's decision to not run the V6 diesel in the half ton trucks was due to warranty concerns. They were very worried that owners would use the truck as though they were one ton trucks, towing heavy trailers and hauling heavy loads, causing undue strain on the drivetrains. While the owners would be at fault for the improper use of the vehicle, Ford would have a difficult time proving otherwise when warranty repais came up.

Personally, I would love to see a smaller fuel efficient diesel engine available in pick ups.

Ok well look at this, almost every ambulance is a Ford and has the internationl engines.
Also do some research on Ford and cummins, you'll find out Ford owns cummins. Or something along those lines. part etc.

Enofe said.

Originally posted by On_The_Rocks

Also do some research on Ford and cummins, you'll find out Ford owns cummins. Or something along those lines. part etc.

Enofe said.



Holy God, not this crap again. Ford has never, does not, nor wil ever own any part, piece or parcel of Cummins.

Originally posted by On_The_Rocks
Ok well look at this, almost every ambulance is a Ford and has the internationl engines.
Also do some research on Ford and cummins, you'll find out Ford owns cummins. Or something along those lines. part etc.

Enofe said.

The only relationship between Ford and Cummins is that Cummins ISB is an optional engine in Fords Class 6&7 trucks. Cummins even addresses this misconception in their FAQ.

Originally posted by On_The_Rocks
Ok well look at this, almost every ambulance is a Ford and has the internationl engines.
Also do some research on Ford and cummins, you'll find out Ford owns cummins. Or something along those lines. part etc.

Enofe said.

http://cummins.com/na/pages/en/products/dodgeram/faq/index.cfm

question 35 :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by On_The_Rocks
Also do some research on Ford and cummins, you'll find out Ford owns cummins.

Enofe said.
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

:smokin: thats some good shiat you got there pal.

jstadrx on this board has lost injectors on his '03 PSD. It's got under 10k on it, I believe...

Ford owns some stock in Cummins, but that is not out of the ordinary on a corporate level.
I bet Cummins owns some Ford stock, GM stock, Daimler/Chrysler stock, etc.

Recall 500 trucks out of a half million made doesnt sound too awful. Every manufacturer has had its issues. 700r4 comes to mind off the top of my head. Just saying that everybody shouldnt be so quick to jump on Fords back when a problem developes. I'm sure the'll have it figured out in a year and well never hear another word about it.

But I could be slightly biased, I tow with an 02 Doodie(V10) and wheel a scout. Naaaa.

I like my '03 Dodge. I like my '99 Ford. I might like the Ford a little more than the Dodge after it gets a Cummins swapped into it. I have a lot of time in both trucks and they are both absolute workhorses.

Adavantage Dodge:
Cummins (better mileage)
Brakes (03 model)
Turning radius
New body styling
Cheaper price tag

Advantage Ford:
Quieter interior
Bigger interior
Better ergonomics (again, interior)
Mirrors
Tows better (chassis wise)

Just my opinions though.

Chris

Originally posted by EMIEVEL
Adavantage Dodge:
Cummins (better mileage)
Brakes (03 model)
Turning radius
New body styling
Cheaper price tag

Advantage Ford:
Quieter interior
Bigger interior
Better ergonomics (again, interior)
Mirrors
Tows better (chassis wise)

Those are some of the major reasons I went Ford. And I can't complain about the turning radius. I just plan my shit in advance.

Originally posted by Fueler


without talking about the VP44.......please build on this, assuming your talking about the ISB line of motors.

the cummins in fords is a isb 5.9,is it the same one as dodge?I have no idea?
I have nothing to say about dodges as I have never touched one of them.
we regularly service around 30 different 6 and 750's.20 being psd's,say 7 cummins and only a few cats.engine wise the cummins break down 3 times as much as the power strokes.injection pumps,drive gears and fuel related problems have them towed in all the time(another problem is our scan tools with ford programs will not read anything from the cummins,they are towed in and towed out to go to cummins itself)
aside from the ps commen problems,cam sensors,the odd injector... they last alot longer.in the past 2 years we have not had a cat engine have a single problem,there are not many of them but still.alot nicer to drive too:cool:

one promlem regardless off engine is the clutch.almost any one part in the clutch system will take a shit for no reason at all,new or old.

Originally posted by Dan 0


the cummins in fords is a isb 5.9,is it the same one as dodge?I have no idea?

Yes, the Dodge is an ISB.

Originally posted by binderbound
Recall 500 trucks out of a half million made doesnt sound too awful. Every manufacturer has had its issues. 700r4 comes to mind off the top of my head. Just saying that everybody shouldnt be so quick to jump on Fords back when a problem developes. I'm sure the'll have it figured out in a year and well never hear another word about it.

But I could be slightly biased, I tow with an 02 Doodie(V10) and wheel a scout. Naaaa.


recall was like 50-60,000
buy backs were 500

Originally posted by robobx



recall was like 50-60,000
buy backs were 500

I didnt read anything about the recall. 10% still doesnt sound like that big of a deal.

Originally posted by EMIEVEL
I like my '03 Dodge. I like my '99 Ford. I might like the Ford a little more than the Dodge after it gets a Cummins swapped into it. I have a lot of time in both trucks and they are both absolute workhorses.

Adavantage Dodge:
Cummins (better mileage)
Brakes (03 model)
Turning radius
New body styling
Cheaper price tag

Advantage Ford:
Quieter interior
Bigger interior
Better ergonomics (again, interior)
Mirrors
Tows better (chassis wise)

Just my opinions though.

Chris

Why does it 'Tow better (chassis wise)' What do you mean exactly? I LOVE the way the 98 3/4 ton tows, I've seen the new Fords, don't see why they tow better but I've never towed with them so I don't know. You're right about the new Dodge brakes, they're MASSIVE.

Originally posted by rusted


Why does it 'Tow better (chassis wise)' What do you mean exactly? I LOVE the way the 98 3/4 ton tows, I've seen the new Fords, don't see why they tow better but I've never towed with them so I don't know. You're right about the new Dodge brakes, they're MASSIVE.

I'm not really sure why the Ford tows better. The only thing I can think of is the hitch is about 3" higher than the Ford. I don't notice the difference when I'm towing the big gooseneck. Anyway, the enclosed 35' bumper pull swaps pretty bad behind the Dodge. I have to load the Porsches backwards so more weight is towards the front. I never had to do that with the Ford. Also, the Dodge is an absolute handfull in the truck ruts. Maybe the distance (side to side) between the duals is different than the Ford, but they both have Dana 80's in them. I haven't measured the difference in the trucks' stance yet. The Dodge wheelbase is about 2 feet shorter though.

Chris

Originally posted by EMIEVEL
I like my '03 Dodge. I like my '99 Ford. I might like the Ford a little more than the Dodge after it gets a Cummins swapped into it. I have a lot of time in both trucks and they are both absolute workhorses.

Adavantage Dodge:
Cummins (better mileage)
Brakes (03 model)
Turning radius
New body styling
Cheaper price tag

Advantage Ford:
Quieter interior
Bigger interior
Better ergonomics (again, interior)
Mirrors
Tows better (chassis wise)

Just my opinions though.

Chris

I'm really suprised your giving interior quietness and mirrors to the Ford! UGET IT has a '99 PSD, and my CTD is 1000 times quiter, both motor noise, and outside noise. His truck has lots of rattles and creaks, as well. I've driven both long distances, and I would hands down take the Dodge, any day! Of course you are comparing duallies and I am comparing 3/4 tons, but I don't see how that should make a difference. The Ford definitely has bigger overloads than my Dodge - I still need to get some damn airbags!

The fold out mirrors in my Dodge are superior to the Ford's non fold out style mirrors. I don't know if Ford has a fold out option, or not? UGET IT's truck is a loaded Lariat, and it does not have them... The Ford has a bigger back seat than my truck. My truck is a longbed, his is a shortbed, so my truck does seem to tow better. However both do seem to tow fine. My Dodge did however take some getting used to to park in crowded parking lots because of it's massive size/length.

We've recently done a bunch of similar BOMBS to both trucks, and will be having a performance shootout in a future article here. :D

Originally posted by Lance
The fold out mirrors in my Dodge are superior to the Ford's non fold out style mirrors. I don't know if Ford has a fold out option, or not?

I've got fold out mirrors on my PSD. Even have to use them once in awhile. Some of those parking spaces are a bit tight. ;)

I NEVER unfold my mirrors, cause I'm always fawking towing big! Anyway, my Ford has the dual post mirrors with the convex mirror on the bottom (stock) and I added small blind spot mirrors on the lower inside portion of the mirror. The Dodge (unfolded) puts the blind spot on the lower outside of the mirror. So when I'm changing lanes (or backing up) with a 53' trailer, I trying to see half of the trailer through the regular mirror and the other half through the blind spot mirror. The only thing I use the blind spots for is to see if an object is there. If it is, then I re-focus in the regular mirror for a non-distorted view. Does that make any sense...or should I make this post even longer!:flipoff2:

Lance, my Dodge has an interior wind noise at about 75 - 80, or at 60 with decent head wind. It's coming from the top of the door seal. I heard it the first time on my test drive with the salesman. We got up to 108 MPH before he said something!:D That's always fun!

Look for air bags on Ebay...

Chris

99 Super Dutys did not have extendable mirrors.

Originally posted by smurfsdad
99 Super Dutys did not have extendable mirrors.

Yeah, they did. My father in laws 99, which he bough new, has them, and always has.

Well my 99 doest have the retractible mirrors and I dont know if they are an option. That being said Lance is correct in the fact that my truck is pretty load inside and even loader outside.

It is a 1999 though with over 100K and it has served me well. It has its rattles because its over 5 years old (July 98 Build). I guess its time to do a tighten job on all of the plastics;) With that being said Lances Dodge is a 2003 and brand new and I can almost bet that in 5yrs his will start rattling and not feeling so "new":D

I like the 7.3 but have a opinon on the the 6.0. My brother purchashed one of the 1st ones and Ford bought it back after 2 months at the Ford Dealer..............As of now he has a new PSD and hasnt had any problems with it. Its a fast Mo Fo too.

Oh and Lance and I will be having a shoot-out.............I just gotta figure out how to keep my EGT's from climbing so fast :(

Just for the hell of it, the truck I mentioned, is his second. He had another 99 he bought new in 98, used it to deliver trailers for Featherlight, always pulling doubles, and racked upo 369,000 miles on it, with a turbo replacement being the only issue. Automatic, loaded crewcab with a chip, cant remeber which. Ran great, sold it for 13,500 with that amount fo mileage, and its still running around three years later.


It had extendable mirrors as well.

We have 2 -99s at work and neither of them have extendable mirrors, the 01 and 03 we have are extendable.

Originally posted by Jrod-13



As opposed to the ford..

6.0 PSD: 325HP and 560ftlbs

VT365: 230HP and 620ftlbs

And which motor has been around longer?:rolleyes:

Looks to me like Ford's detuned the VT365 from 620lbs-ft to 560lbs-ft.

We're talking TRUCKS, right?

HP ratings mean squat, other than P/R to sell a truck to a soccer mom or a less-than-bright yuppie that thinks he needs a "powerful" truck.

Give me the torque!