Should I buy this? [Archive]

The Rockslut

12-24-2001, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by xBabyJesus
The Six-cyl should have plenty of torque if you have the right gears. So ask them what the Ring&Pinion gears are. If it's 4.56's you should be aight.

I'm guessing you meant to say it's an AMC20 rear, Dana44 front.
Chances are they swapped the D44 from a Waggy. That's good times.

Ask about the rear axleshafts. If they're stock, you'll need to replace. You want the 1-piece shafts, like Dutchmans, Mosers, Superior, etc

See if it's got anything cool like a tera-low 4:1 kit.

What tires, what condition? What wheels?

How many miles on the engine? rebuilt?

What springs, shocks etc?

Lockers?

Don't listen to all the idiots in here. They trash on ANYTHING without Dana60's and a huge V8 :rolleyes:

Give us more info and we can help you make a better decision.

-John

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

BWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!

Apparently you have 31's and a 35 in the rear of your XJ.

40" tires a carbed 258 and 4:56's. Are you smoking crack? I have 4:56's with my 4.0 and 38's. Thats not enough gear for those tires. Now you take away horsepower add tires size and keep the same R&P. Nope. Road hazzard.

xBabyJesus

12-24-2001, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by The Rockslut

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

BWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!

Apparently you have 31's and a 35 in the rear of your XJ.

40" tires a carbed 258 and 4:56's. Are you smoking crack? I have 4:56's with my 4.0 and 38's. Thats not enough gear for those tires. Now you take away horsepower add tires size and keep the same R&P. Nope. Road hazzard.

Uhh, I don't have an XJ. I have an '86 CJ with 4.56's, 4:1 Tera-low, on 38's.

Newfie

12-25-2001, 10:24 PM

If the tub and frame are solid, buy it, sell the Swampers (replace with something a little more suitable until full width axles are swapped in, like 35s), replace the freak shackles, beef up the frame and add some armour. It's already locked and the 258 is a good motor. The price seems a little too spendy though. A 75 CJ5 wasn't much more than that to buy brand new... Just an idea, save a CJ from being a poser... :D Good luck with whatever you buy!

H8monday

12-26-2001, 12:16 AM

WTF, you guys trying to sell this piece of crap as a worthwhile project, with a starting price of $4200, have obviously been drinking to much Egg Nog today. You also are obviously so bent on taking up a stance as the devils advocate, that you dont mimd wasting someone else money. Thats fawked up, what excactly is it about this obviouse piece of shit that you say deseves a second look? What do you think, that this is the last available CJ left on the market?
1:The axles are not up to the strength, to handle 44s, if it is geared well enough to turn them..PERIOD!
2:The engine is not strong enough to turn them unless the axles are geared low enough to, not be strong enough(see number 1).
3:The suspension is by discription, a total fawking train wreck, I can only imagine what the steering looks like.
4: Its only got a 3 speed, did you even think how hard it will be for your "Venerable" 6 cylinder to pull those wide artio shifts with 44's?(Uhhhh I didnt think about that).
5:There is nothing in the noted build ups that would make anyone, with half an ounce of common sense, assume that some high dollar T case, or 4:1 kit has been installed.

You jerk offs really need to think about what your saying when your so eager to take a stand against common sense(especialy when a rookie to Jeeps is just asking for sound advice).
If it was selling for a $1000 Id say buy it. Anything above that, I have to say to keep looking, there are much better prospects out there. Which it appears he has wisely opted to do. Fortunately even as a new commer he had the sense to see, through your hot air.

BabyJesus, If you dont like the philosophy of us fuckin idiots, why do you stay on board? V8's and 60s are the only way to go. Or maybe you havent noticed the direction that build ups have had to go, as the challenges have gone nearly vertical. I wish someone would have convinced me of that 5 years and 6 axle swaps earlier. "Give us more info and well help you make a better decision".. What a joke :rolleyes:
Ahhh, what the hell? Ive got a free minute, why dont you tell me everything you know.:rolleyes:

Bert

12-26-2001, 01:21 AM

H8monday, well said.

Baby ..... well said..

But what you must do is see the value.. If the CJ is in good condition other wise.. It might be worth it in the location that he is in.. A CJ with no rust around here is worth a lot.

A CJ in Texas with no rust isn't... See what I mean...

Some people are CJ specific.... If so.. go and make a lowball offer.
the $1,000 dollar limit sounded good. Tell the seller he is asking way way way too much.. And see if he bites.. You might get a nice project jeep cheep, But 4200 is way out of line.. Even if the paint is show quality.. :D
Then hit a junk yard and buy some axles and replace the clutch. Which I am sure is junk if a 258 is turning 44's

Then spend some energy and reserch, (as it appears you are)
and build it up to a heavy hittin mud boggin, rock rampin, grocery gettin ,, CJ... That is of course if you really really want a CJ..

If you just want to play in the woods, I would say it sounds like too many mods to get started. Wait for something else to come along. And dont be picky.. CJ YJ TJ Toyota (must have full front end) :D No offense taco guys/////

Sounds like your going to wait.. Which is most likely a good idea.
So what did I just ramble on????? Yes- buy it? or no dont??/

I cant remember its late here. :confused:

borton

12-26-2001, 01:04 PM

Hummmmmmmm,,,,,,,,no

xBabyJesus

12-26-2001, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by H8monday
WTF, you guys trying to sell this piece of crap as a worthwhile project, with a starting price of $4200, have obviously been drinking to much Egg Nog today. You also are obviously so bent on taking up a stance as the devils advocate, that you dont mimd wasting someone else money. Thats fawked up, what excactly is it about this obviouse piece of shit that you say deseves a second look? What do you think, that this is the last available CJ left on the market?
1:The axles are not up to the strength, to handle 44s, if it is geared well enough to turn them..PERIOD!
2:The engine is not strong enough to turn them unless the axles are geared low enough to, not be strong enough(see number 1).
3:The suspension is by discription, a total fawking train wreck, I can only imagine what the steering looks like.
4: Its only got a 3 speed, did you even think how hard it will be for your "Venerable" 6 cylinder to pull those wide artio shifts with 44's?(Uhhhh I didnt think about that).
5:There is nothing in the noted build ups that would make anyone, with half an ounce of common sense, assume that some high dollar T case, or 4:1 kit has been installed.

You jerk offs really need to think about what your saying when your so eager to take a stand against common sense(especialy when a rookie to Jeeps is just asking for sound advice).
If it was selling for a $1000 Id say buy it. Anything above that, I have to say to keep looking, there are much better prospects out there. Which it appears he has wisely opted to do. Fortunately even as a new commer he had the sense to see, through your hot air.

BabyJesus, If you dont like the philosophy of us fuckin idiots, why do you stay on board? V8's and 60s are the only way to go. Or maybe you havent noticed the direction that build ups have had to go, as the challenges have gone nearly vertical. I wish someone would have convinced me of that 5 years and 6 axle swaps earlier. "Give us more info and well help you make a better decision".. What a joke :rolleyes:
Ahhh, what the hell? Ive got a free minute, why dont you tell me everything you know.:rolleyes:

Just read your post on:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=205099#post205099

I think you must have had too much coffee, or something. Read the guy's original post at the top. He says he wants to go "mud bogging and a little trail riding". That's not exactly the hardcore rockcrawling you do, and doesn't exactly require the same beefy axles, horsepower, etc. I'd say a D44 front, AMC20 rear with the right axleshafts and gearing would be PLENTY strong for this beginner.
Making comments about the asking price is silly. It's an OBO price, likely he'd get it for much less. I figured this was assumed by all, perhaps everyone else thinks the price is set in stone...

In any case, point is that this may not be the best jeep _for you_ but it might be fine with him. It could be really cherried out for all we know, the guy didn't exactly give us enought info to know one way or another.

I never called you an idiot. Generally, your posts make a lot of sense. This is a major exception, and does you discredit. If you look at ALL the posts before mine, you'll notice they're all newbies saying stupid shit like "buy it for me to poop on". I would say that's pretty idiotic. You should also note that the Jeep he's looking at *isn't* running 44"s like you were referring to. It's running 40"s. Which could probably be traded for some nice 38's that are more appropriate =D

And I wasn't referring to the whole pirate board as idiots, either. I think there's a fairly even mix of smart and stupid people on here. BUT, I must say that the majority of the advice is VERY biased towards the "rockcrawling" wheeling that CA guys are doing. However, this board attracts people from all over, including me from WA. Most of us "other guys" build our rigs WAY DIFFERENT from CA rigs. Most CA rigs couldn't run WA trails, and vise versa.

Anyway, fuck it, I'm gonna go work on my CJ... Bitch flies through the snow.

-J :usa:

H8monday

12-26-2001, 08:15 PM

BabyJesus
I must admit, that in retrospect, I was a little harsh. I may have been afflicted with "shit flows down hill syndrome" from to much contact with my X over the last few days, while visiting my daughters. But you had to know that the "V8, Big axle, idiots" comment, combined with your, "Now that Im here, youll be able to make the right decision" persona suggested in your closing sentence, was gonna draw some heat. But after reading my post, I seemed to have taken it to a personal level in the closing paragraph, and that was innapropriate. I have read your posts in the past, and you have contributed well, with inteligent opinions and input. I have nothing against you personaly, and must apologize.
However, with the air now cleared. and my closing tirade, not withstanding, the rest of post is still right on the money. Even with only mud trails as the criteria for a positive recomendation, for someones 1st Jeep.
My reasoning is well pointed out, and are hard to refute, even if you choose to assume that all of the question marks, took a turn for the better with, high quality, and well engineered components. I also would still maintane that you chose to, play the devils advocate, which is what lead to your better than thou closing sentence. And I still contend that you couldnt sincerely answer a sincere question, from a newcommer, once you felt the confrontational need, to debate the stupid posts which preceeded yours.

Now to the new and even more interesting question. What are these way different build ups beyween rigs from Wa and Rigs from Ca. And how do they improve performance so much in one area that they would limit you in another?
Im not trying to jump you here, but I do not believe that philosophy. I say a well built, solid rig, with good HP to weight ratio, a center of gravity maintained as low as feasable for the suspension, tires, and ground clearance of the design, bullet proof drive train, solid steering and lockers, with an experienced driver, Will perform impressively on any trail. I also think that the designs being used to affectively run rock crawling style trails, are continuing to find there way as improvements to all other areas of trail performance.
In short, where is this Wa trail, that you guys can affectively run, that would leave me and my rig so dazed and confused.

Sorry XBJ, but it looks like its out of the frying pan, but into the fire.
What can I say? I guess I just dont play well, with the other children. :flipoff2:

xBabyJesus

12-26-2001, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by H8monday
BabyJesus
I must admit, that in retrospect, I was a little harsh. I may have been afflicted with "shit flows down hill syndrome" from to much contact with my X over the last few days, while visiting my daughters. But you had to know that the "V8, Big axle, idiots" comment, combined with your, "Now that Im here, youll be able to make the right decision" persona suggested in your closing sentence, was gonna draw some heat. But after reading my post, I seemed to have taken it to a personal level in the closing paragraph, and that was innapropriate. I have read your posts in the past, and you have contributed well, with inteligent opinions and input. I have nothing against you personaly, and must apologize.
However, with the air now cleared. and my closing tirade, not withstanding, the rest of post is still right on the money. Even with only mud trails as the criteria for a positive recomendation, for someones 1st Jeep.
My reasoning is well pointed out, and are hard to refute, even if you choose to assume that all of the question marks, took a turn for the better with, high quality, and well engineered components. I also would still maintane that you chose to, play the devils advocate, which is what lead to your better than thou closing sentence. And I still contend that you couldnt sincerely answer a sincere question, from a newcommer, once you felt the confrontational need, to debate the stupid posts which preceeded yours.

Now to the new and even more interesting question. What are these way different build ups beyween rigs from Wa and Rigs from Ca. And how do they improve performance so much in one area that they would limit you in another?
Im not trying to jump you here, but I do not believe that philosophy. I say a well built, solid rig, with good HP to weight ratio, a center of gravity maintained as low as feasable for the suspension, tires, and ground clearance of the design, bullet proof drive train, solid steering and lockers, with an experienced driver, Will perform impressively on any trail. I also think that the designs being used to affectively run rock crawling style trails, are continuing to find there way as improvements to all other areas of trail performance.
In short, where is this Wa trail, that you guys can affectively run, that would leave me and my rig so dazed and confused.

Sorry XBJ, but it looks like its out of the frying pan, but into the fire.
What can I say? I guess I just dont play well, with the other children. :flipoff2:

There are a few different things that vary, but the most basic is the width. I hear every Cali 4x4 builder scream "full width full width" for it's obvious benefits of:
1. no custom axleshafts
2. width = stability

However, full width doesn't work in the majority of the Western Wa trails, the trails are too tight. At least, this has been my experience. Clearance seems to be a bigger issue as well, and of course with less width, a lower COG gets even more important.

-J

xBabyJesus

12-26-2001, 08:33 PM

Oh, and of course, if anybody thought I was coming off as the god of 4x4, that is not my intention. I've built rigs, and I've wheeled, but I'm still learning. However, if you make a stupid-ass comment, or try to pass judgement without enough information, I'm gonna call you on it.

Notice the "we" and "us" in most of my posts. I know there's people out there with brains, lets get to using 'em...

-J

H8monday

12-26-2001, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by xBabyJesus

There are a few different things that vary, but the most basic is the width. I hear every Cali 4x4 builder scream "full width full width" for it's obvious benefits of:
1. no custom axleshafts
2. width = stability

However, full width doesn't work in the majority of the Western Wa trails, the trails are too tight. At least, this has been my experience. Clearance seems to be a bigger issue as well, and of course with less width, a lower COG gets even more important.

-J

Full width can hurt you in the rocks also. In competiton, its very important to be able to fit between the gates. On trails like at the Hammers, it is much like a forest trail, in the fact that it forms to the common width of the rigs running it. So by running wider you often find yourself getting wedged, slipping off narrow ledges, etc. Winch hill #3 on the Fordyce trail comes to mind, it is simple for a stock width Jeep, but can be impossible for the beheemoths to not get wedged in,..and more HP is not a always a viable solution,(uhh 2 axle shafts, a drive shaft, and 2 busted spring packs,all destroyed in about a half second, of poor decision making). Boulders are no less imoveable than trees. Extra length is important for steep climbs but we arent talking about dragster length, and things like cutting brakes and rear steer address the problem, and work anywhere just as effectively. You have to know how important, good balance and a low Center of gravity, become when a rock face starts you out on a slow 70 degree, angle, then requires a full throttle, escape velocity burn out, to make the top, mash the brakes and side hill a 45 degree side hill, before burping the throttle enough to straighten you out for a 6 foot drop off, with a sharp turn at the bottom that doesnt even allow your rear tires to clear ledge, before initiated. Lower C of G is something that all rock crawlers must address, less up travel is often part of the solution, as the body is lowered, and is well worth the sacrifice for more stabilty and better ballance.(unless you have full tube buggy).

So what else you got?
So far, the supposed Wa obstacles, that would be tough on the Ca crawlers, are alittle less difficult than backing off the trailer.

Come awn, you gotta have more than that :flipoff2:

xBabyJesus

12-26-2001, 09:27 PM

Huh? is this some sort of "my dog can beat up your dog" competition?

I generally see rockcrawler-CA built rigs going wider than rocky-tree-trail-WA rigs. I agree that width can work against you in rockcrawling competitions and in "obstacle course" competitions; however, most rockcrawl people have of late decided the good outways the bad. In WA, i'd say fullwidth's bad outweighs it's good. I think most fullwidth rigs would have a hard time on the narrow WA trails, as I have stated before.

What are you expecting me to say? :confused:

H8monday

12-26-2001, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by xBabyJesus

" build our rigs WAY DIFFERENT from CA rigs. Most CA rigs couldn't run WA trails, and vise versa.

-J :usa:

Your comment above, followed by your comment below. I think,... are gonna bite you in the ass. :D

(Quote originally posted by xBabyJesus)
"However, if you make a stupid-ass comment, or try to pass judgement without enough information, I'm gonna call you on it."

xBabyJesus

12-26-2001, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by H8monday

So far, the supposed Wa obstacles, that would be tough on the Ca crawlers, are alittle less difficult than backing off the trailer.

<austin powers> Riiiight. </austin powers> :rolleyes:

I think you underestimate some of the trails. You're welcome to come on up, I'd be happy to give you a tour, and you can check out the SNORT rigs as well :D

-J

xBabyJesus

12-26-2001, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by xBabyJesus

" build our rigs WAY DIFFERENT from CA rigs. Most CA rigs couldn't run WA trails, and vise versa.

-J

Originally posted by H8monday

Your comment above, followed by your comment below. I think,... are gonna bite you in the ass. :D

(Quote originally posted by xBabyJesus)
"However, if you make a stupid-ass comment, or try to pass judgement without enough information, I'm gonna call you on it."

Notice the "most" =)

xBabyJesus

12-26-2001, 09:35 PM

So you're saying that your rockcrawling truck is the uber-superior buildup spec. that can topple a WA tree trail, or a Georgia mudbog?

Diff. buildups for diff. environments. Deny it all ya want.

-J

H8monday

12-26-2001, 09:40 PM

I really dig the work that the SNORT guys are doing, and even run Gabes Beadlocks. Lances rig using their suspension and frame modifications is sweet to watch in action.
And Im not saying that Washington trails are not tough. Im saying they have no problems that are any different than the problems we have out here, or anyone has anywhere. thus my argument that a well ballanced rig, will work anywhere.
I wheel up in Oregon all the time with my brother in law, but I also compete in Rock Crawling events. My rig has evolved to be strong, well powered, well ballanced and reliable, in order to be capable in the rocks, but Ill put my rig up with any other rig in the country, on any trail in the country and Ill have a respectable showing.

xBabyJesus

12-26-2001, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by H8monday
I really dig the work that the SNORT guys are doing, and even run Gabes Beadlocks. Lances rig using their suspension and frame modifications is sweet to watch in action.
And Im not saying that Washington trails are not tough. Im saying they have no problems that are any different than the problems we have out here, or anyone has anywhere. thus my argument that a well ballanced rig, will work anywhere.
I wheel up in Oregon all the time with my brother in law, but I also compete in Rock Crawling events. My rig has evolved to be strong, well powered, well ballanced and reliable, in order to be capable in the rocks, but Ill put my rig up with any other rig in the country, on any trail in the country and Ill have a respectable showing.

Agreed, your rig would perform well above average on any trail.

However, I can think of places where my rig would have an advantage, yours would put mine to shame, and others where we'd both get our asses handed back by WhiteKnight's rig's specific setup.

There definately ARE unique problems and situations in different environments. Some of the solutions are the same (lower CoG), and some of them aren't (flexy vs stiff suspension), and also some are more important than others (CoG vs flex) depending on what you're trying to do. There's no one template that'll be the best at everything.

-J

shaggyzukin

12-27-2001, 11:04 AM

What was the topic of this thread again??
One Difference between California and Washington wheeling is Crawl ratios. Really low gearing does not help spin the mud and clay out of your tires. Dumping $1000's into the low crawling dig of your vehicle in Wa is a waste of money. Just putting low enough gears in so that if you need it you have it is the key here. My jeep when it is done would operate poorly in a rock crawling competition. An awesome rock crawler would do fine here, if it fit between the trees and used the higher gears.
Shaggy

Jakesteramalamajama

12-27-2001, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by CJ-5shaggy
Really low gearing does not help spin the mud and clay out of your tires. Dumping $1000's into the low crawling dig of your vehicle in Wa is a waste of money.

No kidding. I've never wheeled in WA, but here in MN there are very few rocks (at least in north-central MN where I wheel). Just lots of ultra-tight trails, mud bogs and steep ass sand and gravel hills. An ultra-low crawl ratio isn't nearly as important as having the pepperoni under the hood to spin all four tires real fast when you're locked up front and rear.

But that still doesn't mean that the rig mentioned above is a good deal or a capable rig. I stand by my original asessment that it's a worthless accident waiting to happen with those little axles and big tires.

My Unwanted $.02 USD

Jake

H8monday

12-27-2001, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by CJ-5shaggy
What was the topic of this thread again??
One Difference between California and Washington wheeling is Crawl ratios. Really low gearing does not help spin the mud and clay out of your tires. Dumping $1000's into the low crawling dig of your vehicle in Wa is a waste of money. Just putting low enough gears in so that if you need it you have it is the key here. My jeep when it is done would operate poorly in a rock crawling competition. An awesome rock crawler would do fine here, if it fit between the trees and used the higher gears.
Shaggy

"An awesome rock crawler would do fine here, if it fit between the trees and used the higher gears."
Shaggy

Well thank you for that vote of confidence.
You really need to look closer at the how the capable rock rigs are being built these days. Because with your observations above, it is clear that you are a few years behind the current, developement of the designs.

EXCACTLY, "WHAT WAS THIS TOPIC ABOUT AGAIN"
Its about, if a rig is a POS in washington its gonna be POS here in Ca, and its gonna be a POS anywhere else you try to drive it.
So to use the logic that the CJ5 in question is somehow an acceptable piece of shit if used in the right part of the country, still does not keep it from being a POS. The very need to spin the wheels, pushes the underpowerd gem of a CJ5, that is in question even more out of favor.
The fact of the matter is, that this is not a good Jeep to recomend to someone at that price, and I think everyone here already knows this.
I believe the only reason that anyone jumped in to recommend it, was to try and snub, some of the comments prior.
Now the decision to defend that the statements were made because the rig really would be a good vehicle if it wasnt being scrutinzed as a future rock crawler, has gotten comical. To suggest that there is such a vast difference in the abilities of your WA rigs as compared to Ca rigs that we just couldnt run the trails if we went up there is just not true. "The excact statement was,"Most CA rigs couldn't run WA trails, and vise versa". If you can not understand how outrageously stupid that statement is, then you really need to pay closer attention to how we build our rigs out here, and even how your well built rigs are built there in Wa.

In any case we have at least convinced the author of the original question to steer clear of what all of us know is not a good deal.

Bert

12-27-2001, 02:13 PM

Ok guys/gals..

Here is my assesment. Take it or leave it I dont care. Just my
0.02 :D

Look at where he is from

ZPOWELL
Newbie

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: TENNESSEE
Member #8408
Posts: 5

Tennesse means he will be eventully running trails like Montrose,
and Tellico.. Its inevitable just by locations..

For both you need a rig built like a CA rock crawler.

I havn't been to Montrose yet, but after reading DRM's posts on it. I belive it to be just like TELLICO (which I have been too twice)

Does Tennessee have mud.. You better belive it does.. It has as much mud as it does wet/slippery/mudcovered Rocks.

Is traction an issue.. Yes..

Do big tires help Yes.. Do many people brake axles on mud?
Let me refrase that Do many people brake axles on rocks covered in mud?

Once again, I feel that H8Monday's rig would kick Montrose and Tellico's ass. But stick it in just mud.. And we will Most likely stand back and say,,, When do you want pulled out?

(no offense here COACH)

Coachgeo moved here from very near the CON
His rig is built for the Con..
He did fine. yet I was able to clear an obstical with ease and only 3 axles that he almost flipped over backwards on, because he was stuck.

Now was it the rig? Or the driver? I dont know and I was there.
But my assesment is for Different locations, Different types of rigs need to be built Differently..

Unless you go extreem and build it like H8's rig.. Good in all types of terain. (no offense guys)

Like I said Take it or leave it just my $0.02 :D
Happy trails.

xBabyJesus

12-27-2001, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by H8monday

"An awesome rock crawler would do fine here, if it fit between the trees and used the higher gears."
Shaggy

Well thank you for that vote of confidence.
You really need to look closer at the how the capable rock rigs are being built these days. Because with your observations above, it is clear that you are a few years behind the current, developement of the designs.

EXCACTLY, "WHAT WAS THIS TOPIC ABOUT AGAIN"
Its about, if a rig is a POS in washington its gonna be POS here in Ca, and its gonna be a POS anywhere else you try to drive it.
So to use the logic that the CJ5 in question is somehow an acceptable piece of shit if used in the right part of the country, still does not keep it from being a POS. The very need to spin the wheels, pushes the underpowerd gem of a CJ5, that is in question even more out of favor.
The fact of the matter is, that this is not a good Jeep to recomend to someone at that price, and I think everyone here already knows this.
I believe the only reason that anyone jumped in to recommend it, was to try and snub, some of the comments prior.
Now the decision to defend that the statements were made because the rig really would be a good vehicle if it wasnt being scrutinzed as a future rock crawler, has gotten comical. To suggest that there is such a vast difference in the abilities of your WA rigs as compared to Ca rigs that we just couldnt run the trails if we went up there is just not true. "The excact statement was,"Most CA rigs couldn't run WA trails, and vise versa". If you can not understand how outrageously stupid that statement is, then you really need to pay closer attention to how we build our rigs out here, and even how your well built rigs are built there in Wa.

In any case we have at least convinced the author of the original question to steer clear of what all of us know is not a good deal.

Still missing the point, chief. I haven't seen a picture, I'm not sure what axles it has, I'm not sure what gears it has, or anything else about the truck. We don't have enough information to pass any judgement on this truck (not that anybody cares anymore). Calling it a POS without knowing anything about it is silly. The description we were given could of easily been for my jeep, and you'd be a fool not to SNATCH it up for $4k.

"Most CA rigs couldn't run WA trails, and vise versa" This may be an exaggeration, but it holds a principal truth. fullwidth dana60's with 15" wide tires and little backspacing is going to be <sarcastic> fun </sarcastic> on any of the trails that I run. Hope you like climbing trees.
My crawl ratio and width would keep me from following some of the crazy-ass lines your rig will do. That's a fact.

-J

H8monday

12-27-2001, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by BellyUp

Once again, I feel that H8Monday's rig would kick Montrose and Tellico's ass. But stick it in just mud.. And we will Most likely stand back and say,,, When do you want pulled out?

More like, c'mon when are ya gonna come in?:D

I dont run the Jeep, much, in the deep mud, anymore.
But I have spent my fair share of time in the deep gooey stuff. I ran a supercharged big block, F250, in deep pit races, for a few years, and recieved a trophy or two.
I gotta tell ya I dont miss the cleaning, & maintenance.

I think you guys would be surprised at how well my Jeep would, run deep mud. If I were to do it competetively, I would go to an automatic, again. But 300 hp spins the tires just fine in high range. 30:1 in 1st gear high is nearly perfect for my power/tire size in mud conditions. And its light and well ballanced. I dont see it having any problems,..other than I dont wanna do it. :flipoff2:

Bert

12-27-2001, 08:49 PM

Mud is badddd mmmmkkkkk?

:D

I am sure your rig would do fine with some more mods...

But isn't that x baby's entire point??? :confused: :rolleyes:

I am not takin sides here you both have valid views. I am just making logical observations... And H8 I think you just changed your mind again... :D

shaggyzukin

12-27-2001, 09:13 PM

"Well thank you for that vote of confidence.
You really need to look closer at the how the capable rock rigs are being built these days. Because with your observations above, it is clear that you are a few years behind the current, developement of the designs". H8monday

Your right, I am behind on the rock crawling tecnology. We hardly have any of that terrain where I wheel, so why should I care. Maybe I should of said an awesome rock crawler would do GREAT here. But he still would not use the ultra low gears. Did you miss my point? I was agreeing with xbaby that the rigs are built different for the different envirements. A vehicle built for towing to events or places around the country, is another story.
Shaggy

H8monday

12-27-2001, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by CJ-5shaggy
[BYour right, I am behind on the rock crawling tecnology. We hardly have any of that terrain where I wheel, so why should I care. [/B]

Excactly my point. If you dont know what the hell were building, then how in the fawk can you comment on what the capabilities and limitations are. In other words if you dont know what the hell your talking about, dont fawkin act like you do.
This entire thread has become a forumn for a couple of you guys to vent your frustrations that the rock crawlers are getting all the attention. You want to to portray them as ultra geared, super wide, one purpose rigs, that supposedly cant get out of their own way if left to deal with your kinda trails. You dont have a fawking clue. "Your never gonna get it".
The fawkin podium is all yours, Im through with trying to explain "Capable Rig Design 101"

And Shaggy, I dont need to trailer my rig anywhere, I could gas it up and drive up to Wa tomorrow at 75mph, wax any trail you wanna run on, then drive home.
But instead, Ill be towing(by choice) it to the Hammers, where Ill talk with a few of the SNORT guys, who are supposed to be there, about all of your enlighting views on the impossibilities of multi trail vehicle capabilities:rolleyes:

xBabyJesus

12-28-2001, 12:33 AM

Since when has anyone expressed any kind of frustration at the publicity of the rockcrawling arena? Certainly not me, I avidly follow the buildups of rumerous rigs, study the design philosophies, strengths and weaknesses to better construct my own rig. I think that statement was a bit of a stretch...

If you don't see the differences in buildups, and the inherant advantages they offer, you're missing out. My entire point was that maybe a rig doesn't live up to your standards for what you do, but that doesn't nessecarily make it a POS... Would you call my rig a POS just because it doesn't have fullwidth dana60's and a huge V8? That's the misconception I'm trying to stamp out, as it's already bad enough on this BBS...

Who's going down to the Hammers anytime soon? Hmm, maybe I'll run down and give my rig a run...
Timken this weekend, Walker the one after, maybe Highrider in 3 weeks... It's a good time to be 4WD.

-J

Jakesteramalamajama

12-28-2001, 04:28 AM

Originally posted by xBabyJesus
Would you call my rig a POS just because it doesn't have fullwidth dana60's and a huge V8? That's the misconception I'm trying to stamp out, as it's already bad enough on this BBS...

WHAT?!?!?! NO 60s??? NO HUGE V8?!?!?!?!?!?!

What a :rainbow: POS.

:D :flipoff2: :D :flipoff2: :D :flipoff2: :D :flipoff2:

Bert

12-28-2001, 06:31 AM

Guys, I dont think we will convince H8 that rigs can do well in the area they were built for, and bad in area's that they were not built for..

Because, I believe his rig might be the exception to the rule.

I think his rig (because of the driver expirence) has been built for all types of terain, He has done mud.. So he knows you need wheel speed and the right gears.
He has done rocks, so he knows you need low gears. And lots of torque for big tires with lots of traction,
He has done trail rides so he knows you need ANTI-FULL width.
Lets face it.. He knows.. :D

H8monday--------- No offense, just stiring the pot.. :p :p :p :p

H8monday

12-28-2001, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by BellyUp

H8monday--------- No offense, just stiring the pot.. :p :p :p :p

Stir away.....
Ill be the 1st one to jump right in, as long as its not just me arguing with one other person. Hell I could shut down the computer and just talk to my girlfriend if I wanted to do that.:flipoff2:

shaggyzukin

12-28-2001, 01:54 PM

"Excactly my point. If you dont know what the hell were building, then how in the fawk can you comment on what the capabilities and limitations are. In other words if you dont know what the hell your talking about, dont fawkin act like you do". H8monday

The reason I agree I am behind a few years on the developments is because I've only read about the stuff in magazines and on the net. I've never seen them in person. Do I know about the build ups? Of course, I just said I read about them. But not seeing them in person, or doing one myself, I can't say I'm anywhere near an expert, like you seem to be.
Now to my point that your thick head is missing. I don't care how bad ass a rig is, what it has, whether it has square headlights or round, It will not climb a muddy/clay Washington hill in the crawling gears. That is fawking fact, so come prove me wrong if you want. We'll go for pink slips. You said it yourself that you need tire spin, so why are you arguing my point? I think you argue, just for sake of it. All I know, is I wheel with a bunch of good guys that get along, and work as a teem to get capable and even un-capable rigs up or down a trail. This same group of guys, would wave to you just cause you drive a jeep (sqaure headlights or not). Why is hardly anyone on this forum that way. Alot of the folks on here just take the first chance to tee-off on someone and goes for it. Jeepers??? My ASS....
Shaggy

H8monday

12-28-2001, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by CJ-5shaggy
"Now to my point that your thick head is missing. I don't care how bad ass a rig is, what it has, whether it has square headlights or round, It will not climb a muddy/clay Washington hill in the crawling gears. That is fawking fact, so come prove me wrong if you want. We'll go for pink slips. You said it yourself that you need tire spin, so why are you arguing my point.Shaggy

Look closely, halfwit, at your T case shifter. It will have a high range and a low range.
Here is how it works.
Low range is the one you will use, to crawl at slower speeds.
High Range will be for higher speeds.([hint], you can also select different gears in the transmision[thats the other shifter on the floor] if you need more options)
Choose your choice of ranges, for the particular obstacle you wish to climb.
Put it in gear.
Press the gas pedal.:rasta:
By the way, how low range do you think we are running?
Its just the same ol 4.56 gears, and 4:1 t cases for the most part.
Add a little HP, some strong axles, an SOA, fill it with gas, and point it up hill. Its the same thing everyone is doing.
Sam Pattons rig,seems to be able to run any trail very well.
Did I say everything slow enough for you?
What part dont you understand.
And if you dont like the attitude here, go somewhere, where you feel more comfortable.
As far as racing you for pink slips,..."Yeah, Whatever".

BillaVista

12-28-2001, 04:01 PM

Still missing the point, chief. I haven't seen a picture, I'm not sure what axles it has, I'm not sure what gears it has, or anything else about the truck. We don't have enough information to pass any judgement on this truck

So did I fawkin hallucinate this bit:

It's a 1975 CJ5, 6cyl, 3spd, 40" Swampers, 2" Shackles, 4" Susp, 2" body, all locked up, Dana 44 rear, Dana 20 front, flowmasters,

Now, back to the original bit (as much as I am enjoying H8 laying down a serious can of verbal whoop-ass)

If you've been buying and selling used trucks for a while, you get where you can read between the lines a bit too.

And reading this ad, we know all we need to know to opine that it is a POS.

Guy advertises a 2" body lift and what type of fawkin muffler it has...no way it just happens to have a 4:1 or Moser axles and buddy forgot to mention that. By the same token, "all locked up" most likely means welded diffs....if the guy's proud of his brand of mufflers,,,you better believe he'd advertise having a detroit or ARB. If I was selling my Heep, no way I'd post "all locked up", Id say "Detroits front and rear". Not to mention it's a stock 27 year old 6 cylinder, with a 3 speed.....it's a POS, period!

back to the other thread.....this "built for different terrain" crap is either really old school, from when the technology / know how wasn't there to build todays awesome multi purpose rigs (like H8s, Sam Pattons, and mine:flipoff2: ) or is the battle cry of the jealous. Only place that argument holds ANY water is at the EXTREME ends of competition like pro mud bogging. And nobody here's talking about that...we've been talking about trails.

And the fact of the matter is, the best basic design is what folks seem to want to label as a "rock crawler"....clearance, gearing, travel, power, durability......I'm just not seeing where any of this is not good. And please do not repeat, even one more time, the lame "trails are 2 narrow" bs - wide is not a defining characteristic of any particular style....you build as wide as you can to fit the trails....Ca, Wa, or Canada.

Awwww crap...I'm agreeing with H8 again:flipoff2:

But don't worry mate, the paint's drying on them thar Rockstompers...and when the article's done and the pics are there for all to see...we shall have a mighty battle about the superiority of 1/4" steel beadlocks :D :flipoff2:

BillaVista

12-28-2001, 04:05 PM

Oh, and one more thing....I'm pretty sure anyone is free to start their own BBS and call it "Pirates of the tight muddy your california ass won't fit and won't work here wherever".

This IS a ca site, it, without apology, caters to a certain crowd....all of whom are glad to welcome you or glad to see the door hit ya where the good lord split ya...don't mean nuttin' personal...just the way it is.

Shoot - I'm from North Eastern Canada - can't get much further from the Rubicon than that!

H8monday

12-28-2001, 04:52 PM

Thanks, Bill.
I was starting to think that this was a POR Twilight Zone I had logged onto. The only thing missing was Rod Stiegers voice. But I knew if I explained it slow enough, that a few of you Canadian's would be able to get it:flipoff2: .

Now about the 1/4" steel beadlocks,???

Even the guys from WA. know that its all about 1/2" aluminum, (via Bigfeck).:D

ZJSAMPLE

12-28-2001, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by Lucy's Driver
The only good thing is that the D44 probably would not break since the U joints in the front would break so fast.
It might be a good learning experience. You'd learn how to swap axle shafts, scout yards for new ones, and swap ball joints and bearings.

If you thought it was a POS why did you bother asking in the first place?

ZJSAMPLE

12-28-2001, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by ZPOWELL
Thanks for the replys, that's exactly what I was thinking.

If YOU knew it was a POS, why did you even bother asking?

Bert

12-28-2001, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by H8monday

Look closely, halfwit, at your T case shifter. It will have a high range and a low range.
Here is how it works.
Low range is the one you will use, to crawl at slower speeds.
High Range will be for higher speeds.([hint], you can also select different gears in the transmision[thats the other shifter on the floor] if you need more options)
Choose your choice of ranges, for the particular obstacle you wish to climb.
Put it in gear.
Press the gas pedal.:rasta:
By the way, how low range do you think we are running?
Its just the same ol 4.56 gears, and 4:1 t cases for the most part.
Add a little HP, some strong axles, an SOA, fill it with gas, and point it up hill. Its the same thing everyone is doing.
Sam Pattons rig,seems to be able to run any trail very well.
Did I say everything slow enough for you?
What part dont you understand.
And if you dont like the attitude here, go somewhere, where you feel more comfortable.
As far as racing you for pink slips,..."Yeah, Whatever".

H8Monday, Now I was waitin for that... :D

High Range... That other gear in the Transfer case...
I thought High Range was only for snow covered roads. :p

That my friend was the best comeback I have read on any of the pirate posts to date.. :D Sweet just sweet.

And if he wants to go for your pink slip.. I want his rig after you win. (in High range)

ATTA BOY!

(no offense CJ-5shaggy) You kept this very interesting so far.
Lots of view points about different styles of rigs here. And its been a pleasure stiring the shit with ya all..

Now I am going snowmobiling :D later

shaggyzukin

12-28-2001, 07:19 PM

Its just the same ol 4.56 gears, and 4:1 t cases for the most part.
Add a little HP, some strong axles, an SOA, fill it with gas, and point it up hill. Its the same thing everyone is doing". H8monday.

This is sorta where the build up of my rig is going. Except I may go with the 3:6 gears for my D300. Because like I said before, the really low gearing is not as much as an issue here. I'll also be doing 2.5" SUA with my already cut fenders to fit the 35"s.
If I was building this same jeep to run around Rubicon, I would build it different. The 4:1 would be for sure. I would also be going SOA and running 36, 37 or 38" swamps. Uh oh, did I make my point finally? Maybe it is just me that would build them different. But if you are climbing a steep Washington muddy hill and hit a root that pitches your jeep sideways and you start sliding to the bottom door first, which jeep would you rather be in? SUA lifted on 35" rubber. Or SOA on 38" rubber. I don't mind rolling, but I am not going to ask for it. I could put the 4:1 kit in the 300 to but how often would I use 1st gear low range? Maybe if the trail was flat and I wanted to see if it was still there. I probably would not use that gear even with the 3:6 set up. All this above is the whole point behind what I was saying. Do you get me now? As far as you explaining the low range high range bit to me was pretty cute. I'll be sure to pass that info on to all my wheeling buddies. Maybe we could go run Rubicon now... When I said rock crawling rides would have to use higher gears, I did not mean swap em in. I should have said SELECT higher gears. This thread is really amusing to me..thats why I continue to post. By the way...as far as that Jeep in question. It sounds to me like how every bad ass Jeep there is started out. Didn't the specs on your Jeep sound the same when you first bought it, or did someone build it for you? Sounds like a project..not a POS. But that is for sure too much money to be spending on a project Jeep.

H8monday

12-28-2001, 08:01 PM

Now your learnin Shaggy.
Feel free to use the new shifting tricks to surprise and amaze your friends, just speak kindly of me, when revieling where you learned it. ;) And there more where that came from, we can talk about, lowering tire pressure for traction later, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.:D

As far as my build up goes. I bought it stone stock, but poorly maintained, for a hell of a bargain.
I have my girlfriend do all my fabrication, and modifications, while I drink beer and read Playboy.:flipoff2: Come Awn!!

Bert

12-28-2001, 08:44 PM

H8,,

Is your girlfriend cute? :D Does she have a single mother?
Or older sister? How about an aunt? :D

:emb:

shaggyzukin

12-28-2001, 09:53 PM

We all wish our girlfriends were wrench turners, that way they would understand. I told my wife I was going to get thicker gauged plug wires to better compliment my Mallory ignition, and she said "Your putting more money into that thing"!! I had to put my foot down. "Dammit woman, I can't run stock wires with this ignition, it will drain the battery". :rasta: lol. She said "ok".
Shaggy

High5

12-28-2001, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by CJ-5shaggy
We all wish our girlfriends were wrench turners, that way they would understand. I told my wife I was going to get thicker gauged plug wires to better compliment my Mallory ignition, and she said "Your putting more money into that thing"!! I had to put my foot down. "Dammit woman, I can't run stock wires with this ignition, it will drain the battery". :rasta: lol. She said "ok".
Shaggy

i like that shaggy! i'll have to tell my wife i need an atlas because my dana60 will short out my electric fans without it!:D

H8monday

01-03-2002, 01:39 PM

Well, I had the pleasure of running the Hammers with a few of the SNORT guys. Including what has to be the hardest trail in Johnson Valley at this time, Upper Big Johnson.
Well I dont know how well they do in their own neck of the woods, but they sure have the right stuff for Johnson Valley. They had strong engines and drive train, low gearing, and flexy suspensions. Hmmmmm much like my so called Rock Crawler. I dont think they would buy into your "rigs from one area not being qualified for another area hypothesis".
I guess some folks just understand, and some dont, but it doesnt appear to be a regional misconception, just an individual one. :flipoff2:

RokHeep

01-03-2002, 02:27 PM

Damn Jeff. I just came across this post and almost can't believe what I have read! :eek:

Thanks for keeping the S/N ratio up! ;) haha newbies tend to want to dilute it lately...

When you bringing my stearing over!?!? :flipoff2: :flipoff2: J/K I can't use it now anyway.

H8monday

01-03-2002, 03:54 PM

Hahaha, Yeah Newbies, can be a fun tune up, for having to match wits later with someone who really does no what they are talking about. They have a tendency to be annoying as hell also. But what are ya gonna do? Lance wont let us close the door, so all we can do, is try to educate the ones who get it.
I was wondering where many of the regulars, were when this debate was going on,..but me against up to a half dozen Newbies or so, is still a fair fight(although slightly tilted in my favor).
Ill bring your steering by, one evening soon. Ill show you the new steering arms Bob Roggy fabbed for me...sweeeeeet. Gimme a call.

Bert

01-03-2002, 08:17 PM

Hey,,, H8Monday,

I was in there stiring up the shIOTT too ya know.

Even though this time I agreed with the Newbies..:D

:eek: eeek Did I just say I agreeed with newbies???? WTF has happened to me......

:mad3: :rasta: :vader: :vader:

xBabyJesus

01-03-2002, 10:56 PM

...this is the thread that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends...

:beer: + :smokin: = :zzz:

Adam Ant

01-03-2002, 11:10 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by H8monday
[B].
I was wondering where many of the regulars, were when this debate was going on,..but me against up to a half dozen Newbies or so, is still a fair fight(although slightly tilted in my favor).

Hey Jeff we are here Just watching like the Days of our Lifes!!!

I have not said anything because,,,
you said It all!!! No need to rain on you parade ,,
Looked like you were having fun!
LOL

Adam,

shaggyzukin

01-04-2002, 02:13 AM

Not this thread again... I thought it was done.. You wanna go a couple more rounds, ok, here it goes. So you don't forget my point has always been "different envirement, different vehicle build up". Here is a great example. I know a dude that has a Flat fender "built" for the Oregon beaches. The flatty still has its transfer case and the front axle is not sleeved, so it could run a Washington trail if it had too and keep up fine. (if he could keep the front tires on the ground disconnected the sway bars and slapped on a pair of mudders). It would do terrible in rubicon or moab. But put a "Rock Crawler in its territory, and they would be looking at assholes, elbows and rooster tails. So were talking about a Jeep that is king of its territory, can be capable in the Washington territory, but is built nothing like a rock crawler, (except maybe some of the buggy style bars). Also it has some hot pepperoni under the hood in the form of a built Chevy 327ci. Try and talk him into putting in a 4.3 atlas, or SOA on his Jeep and see who has NEWB stamped on whos forehead.
Shaggy

High5

01-04-2002, 02:25 AM

what i want to know is would a jeep built crysler or amc do better on the oregon trails. you see i have a cj and quite frankly i am scared that oregon is not cj friendly. however i can see a yj or tj doing just fine. i think it is all in who manufactured it :flipoff2:

shaggyzukin

01-04-2002, 05:47 AM

Brilliant reply.. Especially when your responding to someone that has CJ-5 in his log on name. :flipoff2:

badassjeepguy

01-04-2002, 08:15 AM

OK, i came into this thread a little late but i did read the entire post.......

Ill first say that i have never done western style wheeling..... but have done a hell of alot on the east coast.....

seems to me that when first into this sport alot of people were content with 33's lockers, and somewhat stock axles...... change occurs and if you do not change , then youll still be going to jeep jambo's thnkin your the shit..... there is a much higher level of wheeling today than ive ever seen.... change is inevitable....

lets take a trip to tellico........... ive been there 5 years in a row. i can tell you this..... 456 gears, tera low, lockers, good flexy suspension, low cog, beadlocks to run low pressure, a good winch, a good cage........... and a few things im sure ive missed, make wheeling in tellico alot of fun, ohh yeahh, big stout drivetrain, a vehicle set up like this could GET IT in many locations across the US! i feel (allthough i may have a few weak spots, ctm may have changed that) that my rig could go out west and run with H8 and the guys and i would have a blast......

low cog! why do you guys thing i hacked my jeep to fit 39.5's? i didnt want 2 stories of lift to clear em.... that helps all across the US! ok yeah the tubing was made into fenders, for legal reasons, and to keep some of the eastern mud off me.... different than the "cal norm" ahh yeahh, but not realy.... the final results were the same.

while im at it, ill give some credit to the west! coilover suspensions........... very very few use them on this side..... which may be part of the reason i will be goin with them in the future..... where will i get my ideas, design. plans, or hell even the parts..... well out west of course. is there anyone on the east that believes these wont work on this side........ i along with the few others can surely show you , youre wrong!

ohh and the gearing...lol :rolleyes: thats why, just like H8 stated, you have low AND high range..... plus your typical ohh lets say 435, 4 speed tranny.... pick a gear.......... mmmmkay

full width? narrow width? lets face it tires are getting taller in this sport.... narrow width is too narrow, full width may be too wide.... imho i will be running axles wide enough to fit my coilovers on the outside of the frame, with a 2 degree tilt in at the top, and wide enough to allow my tall tires to turn without hitting other components......

basically anything that will beifit me here, will also benifit me in the west..... high clearance, high pinion, stout drive train, low cog, well designed flexable suspension..... if built good an strong, and performs well here.... it will perform well there too..... now as for drivers? well i wont get into that... lets just say some can! and some cant! people always blaming the rig.... it will only do what you tell it to do!

H8monday

01-04-2002, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by CJ-5shaggy
Not this thread again... I thought it was done.. You wanna go a couple more rounds, ok, here it goes. So you don't forget my point has always been "different envirement, different vehicle build up". Here is a great example. I know a dude that has a Flat fender "built" for the Oregon beaches. The flatty still has its transfer case and the front axle is not sleeved, so it could run a Washington trail if it had too and keep up fine. (if he could keep the front tires on the ground disconnected the sway bars and slapped on a pair of mudders). It would do terrible in rubicon or moab. But put a "Rock Crawler in its territory, and they would be looking at assholes, elbows and rooster tails. So were talking about a Jeep that is king of its territory, can be capable in the Washington territory, but is built nothing like a rock crawler, (except maybe some of the buggy style bars). Also it has some hot pepperoni under the hood in the form of a built Chevy 327ci. Try and talk him into putting in a 4.3 atlas, or SOA on his Jeep and see who has NEWB stamped on whos forehead.
Shaggy

Again Shaggy, we are not talking about one guy, who builds his rig with railroad wheels so he can drive on the railroad tracks better than anyone else. We are talking a well built rig is a well performing rig anywhere,...Period.
We run sand dunes with our rigs also, we like to use sprint car tires at super low pressures, but I digress.
A well built rig weill run sand, mud, rock, trails, be powerfull enough to get out of its way, and strong enough not to break doing it. Your I know oine guy who...... shit isnt even the same topic. I realize their are specialty built sand and mud dragsters, and swamp buggies and hovercrafts, that can outperform the best attempts by a well rounded Jeep. But a well built Jeep i contend will perform well anywhere any time. Of course like BAJG says, maybe its driver skill that has confused with what your rig s can actually be capable of :flipoff2: