recent email newsletter from a club i've been trying to hang out with this past year (not having much time to do so tho) mentions a trip upcoming that has the following statement in it...

Depending on the weather, if snowy we should reguire mud tires of some kind and tow hooks front and rear" regarding the run to east brady in feb.

Okay...first things first...I don't care what club affiliation y'all have and where you wheel...but tow hooks should be required front and rear no matter what...all the time...period...no if's and's or but's.

Now on to the statement about tires. Snow traction is a little different than mud traction. in mud traction, the object is to get the tire to cut down thru the muck to something that has some grip at the bottom. Mud tires do this well because of the high number and sheer size of voids between lugs where the liquidy goo can escape from under the tire. On snow, IMO it is better in most cases to "float" on top of the snow rather than dig in. Reference the "hole" Lance found. Although it made for some cool pics and probably a new pucker mark in the drivers seat, I don't think that diving head first into a bunch of snow so deep that even a rediculously lifted rig running 39's would become a "belly dragger" is the best idea in the world. talk about begging to get strapped...

During a trip last year in the snow, on a trail where my (at the time) stock height, stock tired Amigo ran with some of the modified Jeeps from the club, I had as much if not more traction than the guys running 35" TSL's, arguably one of the best mud tires around. My tires were 29" Bridgestone Deullers...street tires at best...hardly an AT by any stretch of the imagination.

I now run Yokohama Geolandar AT+II's and would willingly pit them against just about any mud tire out there. Reason? When driving on snow, rather than get the snow out from under the tire so the tire can get to the grippy shit below, snow compacts into the tread and actually provides a decent amount of traction...provided one thing...

That your tires have sufficient siping. The little edges provided by siping and a large number of smaller lugs seem to provide more traction in the snow provided the tread can clean itself out. There is a happy medium. I would not run a turf tire for a golf course tractor in the snow as i doubt it would self clean too well. Mud also cleans out of packed lugs alot easier than snow. Most times i've seen snowpacked tires, they don't clear with the usual romp of the go pedal.

Am I off at all on this statement guys? I mean mud tires look cool and all...but I'm from the school of thought that a good AT tire will get you just as far as a mudder if not further in some instances. MOAB slickrock rocky ledges, and snow/ice are just a few examples I can think of.

My point? I just think it wrong to require mudders for a snow run. I prolly won't be able to make this run anyway...but I'd sure love to try...

[ flamesuit on ]:flipoff2:

It depends on how deep the snow is too. Sometimes, in shallower snow, it is better to dig down to the dirt beneath. Also, snow melts and makes mud. Thus, if it is a warm day after a few inches of snow has fallen, I would rather have a mud tire. When the snow is over a foot or two deep, then flotation and possibly an AT tire are the key.

Jason,
Agreed about the tow hooks, but it's surprising the amount of people who need reminded constantly about the minimum requirements of a run and still think their 27" tired, no tow-hook havin' stocker can handle anything.
As far as snow, with western PA there won't be the amount of snow on the ground to consider AT's a benefit.
What we'll have is possible a few inches on the ground, and pure slop underneath, in which mud tires will definitely be better.
Even if it's really cold and the ground is frozen, it's unlikely there will be any significant snow on the ground. Sure, we get some monster snowstorms (30"±) now and then, but usually, it's just a few inches...
When is the last time we even had some serious snow around here? Few years at least, I'd say :D

Originally posted by FeCamel
It depends on how deep the snow is too. Sometimes, in shallower snow, it is better to dig down to the dirt beneath. Also, snow melts and makes mud. Thus, if it is a warm day after a few inches of snow has fallen, I would rather have a mud tire. When the snow is over a foot or two deep, then flotation and possibly an AT tire are the key.

Agreed. I was trying to back up (uphill & offcamber) to my porch in my dad's truck with AT's in about 6" of snow with a couch my mom had recovered last Christmas. No-go. My truck is on the same brand tires, but MT's, same size tires, both trucks open front & L/S rear, both sets of tires in good shape. Moved the couch over to my truck after several failed attempts to get to the door in his truck. Backed up w/o spinning a tire.

If it's REALLY deep, or ice, I'd rather have AT's. But, for say 3-20", I'll take MT's.


TEX

Oh yeah,
Stop trying to justify reasons for putting Yoko AT's on your ride :flipoff2:

I will argue if you have a decent V-8 only one thing will compare to a aired down Bogger, thats a DC Fun country but those cost an arm, leg, and left nut. If you have good power to weight ratio Mud tires will be better to keep you on top, AT's are only better if your not getting much will spin.

are cepeks really that good of a tire? i hear all the guys in scandanavia run 'em, but how good are they on mud and rocks and common turf in america?

Originally posted by WillyPete
are cepeks really that good of a tire? i hear all the guys in scandanavia run 'em, but how good are they on mud and rocks and common turf in america?

I've only seen them in snow/mud/dirt they did awsome in snow and dirt but not so great in mud, maybe a little better then a BFG AT. They were on a fullsize late 70's ford and in snow they seem to work great because they are not aggresive enough to want to burry you but they are aggresive enough to move some snow when you need to lay into it. I just got some 37x12.50 SSR's and feel that the fact they are soft radials and have a fairly tight pattern in the middle with aggresive outer lugs that these will be killer snow tires.

I think MTs are a good snow tire, with Swampers being too much of a digger, and ATs not having enough digging power to dig when needed.

Dude, check out www.arctictrucks.com and look at the meats on those things... Looks like they use a moderately aggressive MT that is wider than hell. No slim jims or pizza cutters here...

A few of their cruisers were featured in one of those "off road" mags a while back. They were using these things to travel across Greenland (nothing but glaciers...)

I reckon these dudes know what the hell they're talking about and have good reasons for using the tires that they do. Deep snow=wide tires.

Jake:flipoff2:

Originally posted by JasonB
. Reference the "hole" Lance found. Although it made for some cool pics and probably a new pucker mark in the drivers seat,

I doubt it:smokin:

Originally posted by Jakesteramalamajama
Dude, check out www.arctictrucks.com and look at the meats on those things... Looks like they use a moderately aggressive MT that is wider than hell. No slim jims or pizza cutters here...

A few of their cruisers were featured in one of those "off road" mags a while back. They were using these things to travel across Greenland (nothing but glaciers...)

I reckon these dudes know what the hell they're talking about and have good reasons for using the tires that they do. Deep snow=wide tires.

Jake:flipoff2:

Yeah, absolutely. When the snow is 20 ft deep and you're driving across a glacier, flotation is a good thing. I'd love to see the tire that could dig to the bottom of that.

For the snow runs with shallow snow and no ice underneath where you can dig to traction, mudders are definitely the key. For what we're doing here, the snow is deeper than we can dig so we're trying to float on top. Mudders do this pretty well when aired waay down, ATs do well too when aired waaay down. The key here is light surface pressure. You want your contact patch as large as possible so you can stay on top of the snow.

When I was on the east coast, we never ran into real deep snow so we wanted to dig to traction. Mudders worked well there. Also, several of the more aggressive, true ATs like the Dunlop rover R/T were able to dig through but still had enough sipes to stick to the ice underneath when you didn't get to dirt. Probably the way to go in those situations is to have chains. They'll let you dig no matter what tires you have. I wouldn't do that out here though, you'll be sunk up to the frame if you can't get on top of the snow!

Those arctic trucks are awesome! I've seen loads of pictures of them before. For those, you're looking at a moon buggy bouncing along on top of the snow. Some of 'em are set up with so much contact patch that you can run over someone's foot and not do any damage at all. Of course, you romp on it then, and they lose the foot, so I wouldn't be inclined to try it! :flipoff2: Btw, I'm still trying to get the arctic truck style flares for my D110 to put on there for expedition type stuff to keep the mud out of my face and pass all the local laws. And yes, before you get out your flame thrower, I plan on making them removable so I'll take 'em off for running on rocks and stuff like that.


-J

Originally posted by Jakesteramalamajama
Dude, check out www.arctictrucks.com and look at the meats on those things... Looks like they use a moderately aggressive MT that is wider than hell.

http://www.arctictrucks.com/ArcticT.nsf/Files/1LC70-44-showroom/$file/1LC70-44-showroom.jpg


Those are the Dick Cepek "Fun Country's" referenced earlier :)

TEX

AT's are great for the tow rig but when the snow gets deep and nasty I want no part of them! Grooved and siped Boggs for me!

For bottomless snow where you're depending on traction generated by the snow as you pack it, a mudder will do better than an A/T. Additionally, you don't want to spin the tires to clear snow like you would in mud. Here's why.

Snow sticks to snow better than rubber does. So a tread packed with snow as it recontacts the snow surface will provide more traction than a clean tire. If you have muds on, then the snow in the treads is prevented from moving under torque because mud treads tend to have lateral voids and lugs where an A/T tends to have more longitudinal lugs which would allow the trapped snow to slip when you apply torque.

Airing down obviously maximizes the advantage of the M/T as it brings the large lateral side lugs into play as well as reducing ground pressure PSI. So, sounds like the M/T suggestion would be a good one to me though some mud treads emphasize self cleaning so much that a single tire revolution of wheelspin will drop you on the frame.

Originally posted by NE-RokToy
I will argue if you have a decent V-8 only one thing will compare to a aired down Bogger, thats a DC Fun country but those cost an arm, leg, and left nut. If you have good power to weight ratio Mud tires will be better to keep you on top, AT's are only better if your not getting much will spin.

What the fawk are you talking about? Does anyone on this board ever know a damn thing about anything? This post is just a dorky as the one above that talks about you tires ability to clean itself. Unless you are driving in slop, then snow packed in you tires, and stuck to the outside of you tread gives you the best traction. Any tire IMHO is good in the deep stuff as long as it is wide, and running no air. Throttle the gas where we go, and you will be looking for a hook up.

Originally posted by Keith


What the fawk are you talking about? Does anyone on this board ever know a damn thing about anything? This post is just a dorky as the one above that talks about you tires ability to clean itself. Unless you are driving in slop, then snow packed in you tires, and stuck to the outside of you tread gives you the best traction. Any tire IMHO is good in the deep stuff as long as it is wide, and running no air. Throttle the gas where we go, and you will be looking for a hook up.

thats about the whole of it keith:beer:

even a rediculously lifted rig running 39's would become a "belly dragger"
WTF IS THAT, REDICULOUSLY???????

I think that mud terains are a must in the deep snow like the earlier post's stated and wider is better air way down 3 to 4 psi and get it,all terrains just do not work as well unless there fun countrys and everybody no's there magic.
I think when they were made Dick sold his soul to the devil for some magicale spell that makes them work so well cause I don't no why they do, just my opinion