Auto or Manual and why?

The one question that will never be answered!!

Personally I just made the switch on trail rigs from manual to automatic. I like the way a correctly set up automatic handles offroad. For an idea, I feel that a TJ with the 4.0, automatic and 3.73s with 225s is about perfect. That is a crawl ratio of 27.7:1 with 90" cir tires. I took this and applied it to the trail rigs using this formula.

(27.7 * new tire cir ) / 90

So with 42s......they are 131" cir on a fummer rim

27.7 * 131= 3628.7
3628.7 / 90= 40.3

So in my opinion a 40.3 crawl ratio with a 42" tire is just about right. You don't really get the push of really low geared automatics, and you don't get the slip also. This would be a good combo to run with a stock type converter also. The low stall converters help to a point, though they tend to make the rig push too much for me. A good running fuel injected or propane motor also helps to keep the idle very steady at all angles.

This is just an idea to help. I think it provides the best of all worlds.

The one problem with autos is that at EXTREME angles they tend to wash out. I haven't found a way to stop it from happening. A deep pan helps though not enough.

Food for thought.

later :jeep:

auto.
never need to set beverage down to shift.

Manual, because I've never seen a manual overheat its gears and puke out its fluid.

manual for the lower crawl ratio's (sm420) and becasue I know that even if I crack the case in half and loose all my oil I can still hobble of the trail.

I also like compresion breaking down hills.

Auto in the wheeler, manual in the tow rig.

Pete

manual after I saw a turbo 350 go kaboom

Well its no secret that an auto is easyer to drive but I like manual "sm465" cause its bullet proof and I just dont like to fallow the trendy croud over to auto.

MANUAL

SM420
I ditched the TH400 for the gear box

........it is all relative to what you like to take your rig through.....

Originally posted by Mieser
The one question that will never be answered!!

Personally I just made the switch on trail rigs from manual to automatic. I like the way a correctly set up automatic handles offroad. For an idea, I feel that a TJ with the 4.0, automatic and 3.73s with 225s is about perfect. That is a crawl ratio of 27.7:1 with 90" cir tires. I took this and applied it to the trail rigs using this formula.

(27.7 * new tire cir ) / 90

So with 42s......they are 131" cir on a fummer rim

27.7 * 131= 3628.7
3628.7 / 90= 40.3

So in my opinion a 40.3 crawl ratio with a 42" tire is just about right. You don't really get the push of really low geared automatics, and you don't get the slip also. This would be a good combo to run with a stock type converter also. The low stall converters help to a point, though they tend to make the rig push too much for me. A good running fuel injected or propane motor also helps to keep the idle very steady at all angles.

This is just an idea to help. I think it provides the best of all worlds.

The one problem with autos is that at EXTREME angles they tend to wash out. I haven't found a way to stop it from happening. A deep pan helps though not enough.

Food for thought.

later :jeep:

Dude, Check your math! THere is NO way you can change to a bigger tire only and get a lower crawl ratio.

Originally posted by pcorssmit
Auto in the wheeler, manual in the tow rig.

Pete

That is opposite of me. I want a good auto (TH400) for the tow rig with an extra cooler. and a manual for the wheeler. I have an auto for the wheeler now, but my new wheeler with have a manual and the current wheeler will be a mud rig, so auto is better for it.

NP435 for me. I absolutely love it. I think the manuals are much better to have in the snow too.

I think you have to spend way too much on an auto to make it worth a damn offroad. Then there's reliability issues.

Most autos I see on the trail are stock tranny's and they suck. When they hit an obsticle, the driver slowly builds up rpm then the coverter suddenly locks up and applies too much torque and results in tire spin.

Manuals can keep the tires spinning ever so slowly without an increase in wheel speed. More control, less tire spin, more progress.

That's the way I see it, if any of that makes sense.

T18 or Np435 two best trans!!
hands down!

Adam,

Originally posted by Nobody
I think you have to spend way too much on an auto to make it worth a damn offroad. Then there's reliability issues.

Most autos I see on the trail are stock tranny's and they suck. When they hit an obsticle, the driver slowly builds up rpm then the coverter suddenly locks up and applies too much torque and results in tire spin.

.


and you gotta pump dollars inot those Auto's !!! to make them work right !!

Originally posted by Adam Ant
T18 or Np435 two best trans!!
hands down!

Adam, Yea right 465 for me.

Originally posted by Abba
Yea right 465 for me.

465 Blow chunks after hard miles!! come awnnnn you know this !!!

Adam,

Easily found for $100 or less! How can you argue with that?

http://www.snort4x4.com/~4xford/images/302/435r.jpg

what is that adapter to???

looks like odd 435 I have one of those !! what year did you get it out of?? are the rear bottom bolts directly above the top bolts on the rear of the trans or are the lower bolts toward's the outside of the case

Adam,

No I dont know its from working on Chevys I guess.

Originally posted by Adam Ant
what is that adapter to???

looks like odd 435 I have one of those !! what year did you get it out of?? are the rear bottom bolts directly above the top bolts on the rear of the trans or are the lower bolts toward's the outside of the case

Adam,

That's the 2wd tailhousing. Square bolt pattern. I just left it on there during the install to keep the dirt out. It's out of a 1980 F-150. I used the AA adapter with dana 20. Love it! That combo opened a lot of doors offroad!

What's odd looking about it?

thanks for the info any more pics ! from the rear!!of the trans ???
Adam,

Originally posted by Nobody
When they hit an obsticle, the driver slowly builds up rpm then the coverter suddenly locks up and applies too much torque and results in tire spin.
ever heard of power breaking:question: also an auto is alot cheaper to build then buying all these crawler boxes extra transfer cases and shit like that.

normally the 4 bolts on the rear are not square they are offset like T18 trans !! the upper are 3 3/8 to center and the lower's are 5 5/8 on center normal T18 and Np 435 trans

I just did not think advance sold the adapters that mount like that ! with the 3 3/8 upper and lower bolts

I have a trans like that in my shop ! just wondered!! thanks !
because I ordered a adapter to 300 from them and it came wrong with the T 18 pattern 3 3/8 upper and 5 5/8 lower and now have a adapter laying around!

I also have a NP435 in the shop that has the T18 pattern rear already adapted to a 300 !!
time to call advanced on wed!

2 words: water crossing! get some water in your auto. oh ya you'd have to go offroad to find water!:laughing:

Originally posted by FULLSIZE
2 words: water crossing! get some water in your auto. oh ya you'd have to go offroad to find water!:laughing:

2 words: breather hose:flipoff2:

Auto properly setup in the tow rig... and Manual on the trail.

There are times an automatic would be nice... but in general a manual is a far superior out in the middle of nowhere tranny.

1) you kill you battery you can push start it. (Auto, you carry a spare battery)

2) you kill your starter you can push start it (auto, you carry a spare starter)

3) Manual, doesn't overheat like an auto can, even a properly setup one.

4) You aint really driving unless you have a manual. For those of you that have never driven down a country road with a manual, zipping through the gears... you'll never understand. :D

5) plenty of engine compression available to slow you when using a manual.

Upside to an automatic, hella easy to drive, less to think about sometimes. you need your tire up an obstacle.. just keep applying the gas until it's up then let off. (down side to that.. if you got big tires you need D70's to survive the strain. ;)

Originally posted by trailhawg

ever heard of power breaking:question: also an auto is alot cheaper to build then buying all these crawler boxes extra transfer cases and shit like that.

Yep, stock tranny's love to power "break". :barf: :barf: Wheel speed is still not as controled as with a manual. Then, with the engine reving you've got a lot of torque ready to kill something.

Originally posted by Adam Ant
normally the 4 bolts on the rear are not square they are offset like T18 trans !! the upper are 3 3/8 to center and the lower's are 5 5/8 on center normal T18 and Np 435 trans

I just did not think advance sold the adapters that mount like that ! with the 3 3/8 upper and lower bolts

I have a trans like that in my shop ! just wondered!! thanks !
because I ordered a adapter to 300 from them and it came wrong with the T 18 pattern 3 3/8 upper and 5 5/8 lower and now have a adapter laying around!

I also have a NP435 in the shop that has the T18 pattern rear already adapted to a 300 !!
time to call advanced on wed!

My AA adapter fits both the square and "A" pattern. AA is not the place to buy though. You can get them about $50 cheaper through 3rd parties. I happened to get mine from james duff.

Few more of my 435 here :

http://www.snort4x4.com/~4xford/np435.htm

http://home.earthlink.net/~mattsara/bb/aa2.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~mattsara/bb/435back.jpg

I like Manual trannys for wheeling........
I couldn't decide whether I liked the SM 420 or the Warner T19 better so I chose both...............

Although I have seen TH350 auto trannys go through absolute hell.......

Originally posted by twaldher
4) You aint really driving unless you have a manual. For those of you that have never driven down a country road with a manual, zipping through the gears... you'll never understand. :D


I would just like to point out how much shifting a big top-loader sucks on the go! Country road my ass! The only thing that could possibly make it go slower is having 13 gears to choose from ala Peterbuilt!

Squash

Originally posted by Realsquash


I would just like to point out how much shifting a big top-loader sucks on the go! Country road my ass! The only thing that could possibly make it go slower is having 13 gears to choose from ala Peterbuilt!

Squash

ok ok.. there's exceptions to every rule of thumb. :D

I used to be a manual man, for a long long time, almost 7 years, since I was 15 and learned to drive a stick. I just recently completed an auto swap, and I can tell Im going to like this MUCH better. I already like it way better on road, and Ive driven a buddies auto rig off road, and loved it. Can't wait to go beat mine for a bit. No more fussing with 3 pedals, and the crappy carb to keep it running :)
Scott :grinpimp: <><

I love my TF727 off road.
On road I rather drive a manual, though.

I got a manual 4 speed but I like the idea of a built 700R4 or I have seen a newer tugher GM 4 speed 480lE or somthing but the tughest long lasting is the TH400 they can take hell.

There have only been two times when I have ever wished that I had a manual.
-mud bogging, hard to shift when you are full throttle and cant afford to let off the gas.
-very extreme inclines, I know this can be solved with a hand throttle, but i never got one so i had to gas and brake with one foot and clutch with the other.

I dont like autos for all of the above mentioned reasons though.
I believe that accidents are on the rise and manuals on the decline because there are all these idiot house wives out there trying to drink star bucks and talk on their cell phones.

k, auto for arca rigs that never worry about stopping midway through attempts. autos endo all the time on zany lines because they can't dump the clutch fast enough to bail on a really steep climb.

for pure performance, autos win. period.

for durability, price, heat issues, starting dead rigs, all other kindsa stuff, manuals rule.

i've run both and can say the auto obviously works better and will crawl easier. shifts in mud for you and uphill, so you never screw up and lose momentum. but considering all the time you worry about how hot the tranny tunnel under your console is getting, or if water got sucked in at the last crossing, or if you are going to be able to get out of the woods by yourself when your battery dies, i like my manual.

plus, have you ever seen the inside of an auto, kinda scarry.

Originally posted by Adam Ant


465 Blow chunks after hard miles!! come awnnnn you know this !!!

Adam,

I may be a "newbie" here but I have been 4 wheeling for many years. I generally prefer an auto and I have a TH400 in my current project. Other than the TH400, I would run a 465. I have also run GM almost exclusively (except for a CJ7). However, I've never heard that a "465 blows chunks" in any way.

So, I guess I missed something along the way. What is the problem with a 465?

As I've always said, "I'll put in an auto when they cut off my left leg!" I personally like the fact that when rock crawling I can let off the clutch and not have to touch the pedals at all for the most part. Just let it idle and point it in the right direction. That and all of the other reasons people mentioned for liking real gear boxes.:p

Never had any problems with my automatics. Never had any problems with overheating or spitting fluid. As far as steep angles it did great. :flipoff2:

I just went from an auto to stick I like knowing with the dual marlin and my 5 speed that if you stick it in first gear you not going to go any faster thatn 1 mp. plus I have seen way to many auto trannys blow up. Their is a thing caled a cup holder.

Well this is a problem I had when I bought my TJ new.

Which one? Hmmm ,,, It took about 1/2 of a second to figure that one out. 5 speed.

As soon as I can afford it I will have a SM420 Klune V Dana 300 Inverted twin stick disc brake set up..

And with 2 ARB's I will be pushing buttons, Pullin levers, shifting gears, and banging everything in the cockpit that I can find as often as possiable.

I like the gear choices available.. Start out in 3rd gear in your auto. :D I didn't think you could do that either.

I must add..If you are going AUTO the TH400 is the one to get.
VERY good choice.

Originally posted by BellyUp
I like the gear choices available.. Start out in 3rd gear in your auto. :D I didn't think you could do that either.


Part of having a properly setup automatic tranny is installing a manual valve body :)

Squash

Auto all the way for my competition-only mud racer. Specifically, it doesn't get any better than the TH350.

- Adapters to most t-cases readily available.
- Compact size

The above being why I choose it over TH400

- proper close-ratio gear spacing
- very durable with very inexpensive rebuilds

The above being why I choose it over TH700.


TEX

I love my NV4500, even if it is a bit loud in 5th. Can't beat a 6.3 to 1 first gear AND a 27% overdrive. It makes 4.88's and 35's very streetable and comfortable on those long drives to the wheeling spots! I'm getting 18 mpg in my 200,000 mile 4.0 with this combo.

Andy

its all about the AX5... The unsung hero :usa:

auto, it came with it...run what you brung!:D

Originally posted by afecko
I love my NV4500, even if it is a bit loud in 5th. Can't beat a 6.3 to 1 first gear AND a 27% overdrive. It makes 4.88's and 35's very streetable and comfortable on those long drives to the wheeling spots! I'm getting 18 mpg in my 200,000 mile 4.0 with this combo.

Andy

:drool::D

i'm pretty fond of my torqueflite 727. same gearing as a th400 and just as tough.

i'm lazy, so shoot me. i also hate going up hills and losing momentum with manual trannies, especially wide ratio ones like in trucks. hell, shifting from 2nd to 3rd on my YJ means i have to go from 3500 to 2000, less if i'm going uphill (think 1800). auto has instant shifts, very smooth, i might add.

i don't know what kinda junk they're putting in autos nowadays, but i seriously doubt my 727 will cop out on me.

not that i can't appreciate a manual. i just prefer an auto in a truck/wheelin rig.

ok im confused is someone smoking crack? an auto getting water in it???? can you say one way valve and locking dipstick???? id like to see anyone water proof that big hole in the top of a manual tranny to keep the water out.... now the manual in my eb doesnt have that big hole in the top so its cool for water, but it has a crappy first gear of 2.99 so im trading it for an 700r4.
if you run an auto you must have a reverse manual shift valve body, a stack plate cooler, and someone who can build one right...

:flipoff2: Manuels rule, shifting sucks, but will take my manuel and 136 to 1 over an overheated 60 to 1 auto. Plus this way my left leg gets a workout too.:flipoff2:

manual for wheeling T-18 to be exact and auto for the tow rig. :roxy:

Manual.

the mustang I have now (was given) is the first automatic I've ever driven in my life

Originally posted by Butch
shifting sucks, but will take my manuel and 136 to 1

I prefer 15:1 at ~6,400 R's :D


TEX

Manual
T18a in the CJ
NV3550 in the tow rig

I'm almost wishing I had a close ratio back instead of the wide, I'd rather have the extra ratio in the xfer. The 1st-2nd shift is quite a drop (6.32:1 to 2.99:1)

Gotta place my vote for manuals. That's all I own. One of the main reasons is I know how to fix them. Don't have a fawking clue how to rebuild an auto tranny.

Originally posted by EricFJ40
I personally like the fact that when rock crawling I can let off the clutch and not have to touch the pedals at all for the most part. Just let it idle and point it in the right direction. .:p

Doesn't this Describe an AUTO tranny to a tee!!??!!??:eek:

For all these guys who love their fawkin manuals; you spend $1000's on custom adapters & gear sets just so that your manual works like an auto!! You want to have a crawl ratio low enough that you don't need to use the clutch!! BUY an AUTO!!! :flipoff2:

TH400 Rules!!!:smokin: :p

Brian
89 KBlazer

Build it RIGHT or DON'T Build it at all!!!!

I personally like an auto off road, better control, no stalling and way more lowend torque(multiplied by the torque converter). I through in a JET performance 700R4 with a low stall torque converter, and it kicks ass.

Personally I think autos are boring and pretty :rainbow:

I don't need an auto tranny to hold my hand (feet?) for me..

How much fun can it be to throw it in "D" and just steer your way ? :confused:..

To all the auto people I have offended, good :flipoff2:....Autos are for slackers :D.

auto
if you can't rebuild it "LEARN", isn't that what everyone on this board preaches, i believe the biggest draw back hasn't been discussed, length

but thanks to this board i will be extending the wheelbase to add another t-case

bottom line whatever you like, i prefer redheads

I am all for the shifting and left peddle! I have the NV4500 and atlassII inmy EB and love it!! (118-1)

well i'll have to see. i just swapped my old 351w and np435 for a vortec 350 and 4l80e . the reason i chose to swap to an auto was with a manual i always seemed to want a gear that i didn't have. the only solution i could think of would be a granny low 6 speed (a 5 speed would work but without a o/d). the np435's 1st (6.69to1)was great and so was second but there was too much of a difference between 2nd and 3rd. if i was in a situation where 2nd was too low then 3rd was too high. i figure with the auto the torque converter will help me with this problem. if i'm not happy i'll just switch back.:D

If you're gonna really abuse it a manual will hold-up better in the long run. Plus you can push start the rig if necessary.
I like a manual for bonzi runs over rocks so if I get big air I can push in the clutch before landing (saves lots of damage), I also like to be able to pick any gear I want for launches/drags
For mudbogs or racing a auto is a lot faster, but less durable and they always seem to have overheating problems when using the hi-stall converters.
I've been beating on 1969 sm465 for 15 years and I rebuilt it this spring for about $75...not bad

I have run a manual tranny for ten years of hard wheeling, always swore bye it. I had an NP435 with Dana 300 (4:1) and 4.88s loved the crawl ratio. I always loved to idle up obstacles. My friends with autos would wheel the same obstacles, but I just thought mine was better for one reason or another. Then I started going to Choke Cherry Canyon, Las Cruces and Montrose, where all the obstacles arent just "flat flexing" obstacles or short hills. My Jeep was geared well, but the large difference between first and second would hinder me on large hills where I needed to bump it at the top. First gear was too slow, and second was too fast. I could usually work my way up things by giving it the high RPM first gear asult which is way out of driving character for me, but it worked.

The problem with all that low of gearing is you lack of speed variation out of your single gear. Be it that you can always shift, but I dont like to shift right in the middle of a dificult obstacle.

In my case with the NP435 (6.69 to 1)
from 750 to 3500 RPM I could increase my speed by one or two mile per hour.

Take my new AMC TH-400 I just finished building (2.03 to 1)
In that same range of RPM I have the ability to go faster.
My custom torque converter with a 2 to 1 gear multiplication factor (at full slip) can give me better down low gear ratio.

I believe, when driven properly, this will make the difference for me in the situations I kept finding myself in with the manual tranny. Given, I did modify this transmission, but in the end, who gives a sheit, we all modify everything for one reason or another. (Fun, challenge, need, laack of money, too much money... you get the idea)


Ryan

For all the auto guys talking about how much you have to spend on a manual to get it to crawl, consider these prices-
Sm-420-$50
Dana 300-$150
Adapter-$200

So for less than the cost of getting a basic auto rebuild I've got a combo that allows me to idle anything. I don't even have to give it gas to try to get the converter to lock up so the rig actually moves.

FYI there Eric,

The torque converter doesnt need to be "locked up" to alow torque application to the transfer case, The converter only needs to go into "vortex flow" and begin fluid flow through the transmission. How much you are moving forward depends on the percentage lockup in the converter and amount of slippage between the clutches and steels of the gear you are in.

That's what I was trying to say, just without so many words:D

I'd like to see a manual tranny with a clutch and torque converter. The converter would need to have a manual lock for normal driving, but i think it would be possible.

The torque converter unit wouldn't necessarily be in front of the tranny. It could be a unit that bolts between the trans and transfer, elimating the need for adapters.

Nobody,

cool idea..... :D

Manual for wheeling

automatic for mud bog racing

I prefer a manual for most things. I have a SM420 in my FJ40 (mostly rock use), and have not once pondered an auto for that swap. I also require a manual in my sports cars - if I can't peg the rpms before I shift (or downshift to pass on demand), the car is worthless. For a full sized truck - depends on useage - a grocery getter is probably fine with an auto (especially something like what came in the 93/94 FJ80) - but for hard use and towing (HD 3/4 ton P/U or suburban) I think the manual will better suit the job.

This is all personal pref. - just spouting mine :D :D

t 400:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :usa:

I love the automatic in my wheeler. It does everything I ask of it with one exception. Compression braking is not as good as I would like.

Originally posted by Nobody
When they hit an obsticle, the driver slowly builds up rpm then the coverter suddenly locks up and applies too much torque and results in tire spin.

I do not have this problem. My tranny IS heavily modified though so it does perform much better than a stock one. One other mod that I will be doing soon is wiring up the lock up torque converter so I can use it in any gear. That should help when I want to go slowly downhill.

yeep, is that a custom gear set in your th400? i've found them for the tf727 (80s jeeps) but not the th400 - mostly cuz i haven't looked :D

stock first is 2.45:1 (for me) and the 400 is 2.48. i wish it was about 2.25:1 or so and i like 2nd at 1.45:1, but that's just me.

Sm420 manual is my preference. You dont have to worry about overheating or changing filters. Besides the SM420 used to be a 2.5 ton tranny(correct me if Im wrong).

Haven't decided what trans I wanna put in my toy yet - depends on how much power i want - aka 4.3 aluminum stroker with blower :flipoff2: :eek:

If I do im going the TH700 route - plant the skinny pedal and start shifting right?

The toy V6 trans won't hold up to 350hp I don't think....... But I like picking when I shift :D - prolly cuz i don't drive normal :) aka lead foot.






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