Ok,
Who has made their own wristed arm?

I have some spares, and my custom ones. I am thinking about wristing a stocker.

What size plate for the sides, and how do I keep from getting excessive side play on the street (for the to the trail thing)? There is not enough room IMHO for two bolts vertically, so what about a pin and a clamping collar?

Yeah- I am off to search the bronco side of the house.

TIA

j

I dont thinks its what you are after, but this is what I had turned up. Less the spanners..

Michael.

another option

Assume you have read this:

Quinn's Wristed Arm (http://www.d-90.com/prod/hinge.html)

Originally posted by Michael Rangie
another option
looks sorta like sams one, in fact a lot like sams one :confused: :D

YEP you are correct BJ.

Michael.

j - did you unearth any info to share on this?

while we're on the topic of radius arms, i was eyeballing the feasability of moving the r.a. mounts to the inside of the frame, and then having the arms cranked over to suit [EDIT: a la Sam's latest experiment ] it would be easy enough to construct a coal-fired furnace to heat up the arms enough to bend, and then place the heated arm into a steel jig to accurately set the angles. i need to do some more research to figure out what the best way is to cool them down after the bend; i.e. quenched in a bath of some kind, or allowed to cool unassisted.
[edit: although i'm sure sam probably just used a torch i don't have one at my disposal]

sam if you want to weigh in here, i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the cranked vs. hinged arms?

cheers,

isaac

They are just mild steel. Let them air cool. A torch would do fine for the heating.

I will probably fire this project up in the next 30 days. I have a set of offset, lengthened arms on now, which I don't want to cut, and my spares are just laying there, but I can't really make up my mind if it is worth it. I max out 99012's now, 6" up, 6" down, but it doesn't flex real QUICK. I am trying to decrease the resistance up front, not increase travel.

j

Have you considered Sam's "slotted" bushings?

Sam's Bushings (http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8508)

Originally posted by red90rover
Have you considered Sam's "slotted" bushings?

Sam's Bushings (http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8508)

Dude, those are SOOOOOO 2003....


I drive mine on the street too, and they are deadly with a true-trac, and don't last very long...

j

makes sense. this leads me to another noobyish question . . . after reading about all the trouble that chris h. went to with the front double shock set up to adjust roll center - are there any seat of the pants opinions on using bilsteins over the softer rancho shocks on a 3-link/wristed-arm front end? it seems that after you free up the movement your front-end is going to have much more of a tendency to roll side-to-side.


red90 - thanks for the info.

[joke/prank/half-kidding mode]

why not just cast our own damn arms? how hard could it be?? i've been wanting to make a small back-yard foundry for awhile now, ableit more to make garden junk for the mrs.

:girly: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by SeaRover


[joke/prank/half-kidding mode]

why not just cast our own damn arms? how hard could it be?? i've been wanting to make a small back-yard foundry for awhile now, ableit more to make garden junk for the mrs.

:girly: :flipoff2:

Man, and some people used to refer to a certain 3-link set-up as a particular piece of outdoor furniture...

Maybe you could melt down a bunch of old rebar and make arms out of the resulting slag :D

Then you could be the first to give them the locked brake street test from 80 MPH.







....yeah - I know you're kidding :flipoff2:


So, what ever happened to all the buzz about Quinn's arms ? I was thinking about fabbing one several years ago but I have to drive too far on the road to get to any good wheeling...

keith
:usa:

Originally posted by SeaRover
j - did you unearth any info to share on this?

while we're on the topic of radius arms, i was eyeballing the feasability of moving the r.a. mounts to the inside of the frame, and then having the arms cranked over to suit [EDIT: a la Sam's latest experiment ] it would be easy enough to construct a coal-fired furnace to heat up the arms enough to bend, and then place the heated arm into a steel jig to accurately set the angles. i need to do some more research to figure out what the best way is to cool them down after the bend; i.e. quenched in a bath of some kind, or allowed to cool unassisted.
[edit: although i'm sure sam probably just used a torch i don't have one at my disposal]

sam if you want to weigh in here, i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the cranked vs. hinged arms?

cheers,

isaac


I would never consider hinging an arm again. When I had it I thought it was great but when I got rid of it I only then realised how badly it made the rig handle off road.

Flexed heaps though.

Not totally sure on the cranked arms yet - they look like that want to rotate inwards and outwards but I will know more next week.

Sam

Originally posted by SeaRover
are there any seat of the pants opinions on using bilsteins over the softer rancho shocks on a 3-link/wristed-arm front end? it seems that after you free up the movement your front-end is going to have much more of a tendency to roll side-to-side.


:girly: :flipoff2:


Yeah, You get out your welder, some tube, and make your own? Search, I have posted pics.

Body roll happens.


j

Originally posted by redrangie


Dude, those are SOOOOOO 2003....


I drive mine on the street too, and they are deadly with a true-trac, and don't last very long...

j

The bushes in that link are nothing like the drilled ones we were playing with in the good ole days.

If I remember correctly the bushes you drilled had the intermediate shell and wernt the two shell bushes that we were having so much success with (in terms of flex and how long they lasted). But like you say this is last years technology.

What sort of bushes are you running now?

Sam

" Yeah, You get out your welder, some tube, and make your own? Search, I have posted pics.

Body roll happens. "

i was talking about how the shock setup affected the RC, not about yer monkey bars -

;)

You know, I don't know much about this new fangled suspension stuff... Please edumacate me about how changing the position the shock, without changing the pivot point or radial arc of the suspension travel will change roll center?

j

d'oh - i said "setup" - what I meant more was rate.

i was referring to chris hinkle's dual-front shock setup, which he setup to reduce roll from soft shocks / springs.

http://www.geocities.com/~defender110/suspension/

i've only heard people mention his mod a couple of times and not really in a positive way.

In the general forum most of what i've read is just a general suggestion that a stiffer shock "felt" better, and was curious if anyone could elaborate with their own experiences, or had directly observed or measured how changing the shock rate affected "over rotation" as hinkle puts it.

so . . . soft rancho, less restriction to axle articulation produces body roll. add a stiffer bilstein shock - less body roll, or just a stiffer shock? Is there a dual setup using more common (and less $$) shocks that would help mitigate the body roll induced by a hinged arm, 3-link etc. etc.

cheers,

isaac

Bilstein = adjustable rate. You can make it stiff or soft. With adjustable compression or rebound.

Rancho 99xxx series = adjustable rate, but fixed compression and rebound rates through one way valving

Body roll does not change with rate of spring or shock. What does change is the amount of force required to do the same work, therefore giving the illusion of "less" roll. The roll does not change, just the speed of the change in distance.

Sway bars act the same way, although some designs will actually limit travel by not having the same range of motion as the axle.

Originally posted by red90rover
Have you considered Sam's "slotted" bushings?

Sam's Bushings (http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8508)

Did you try sam's ones or did you drill them yourself ?
Sams are cast and work a treat in his business partners rig with a true trac and the rangie weigh around 2,8 Tonne.

I would give his a go if you have not, the current itteration have been in my car for 9 months and Chucks have been there nearly as long but he does a heap more wheeling than me so it would be a better test.

Tom

Body roll does not change with rate of spring or shock. What does change is the amount of force required to do the same work, therefore giving the illusion of "less" roll. The roll does not change, just the speed of the change in distance.

i understand what you mean by this - and my advance apologies if this is too noobie - but my point is that from the data c.h. recorded what you're saying about "illusion" doesn't ring true when looking at the graph, and reading his explanation; or likely, i'm just a dumbass.


"The dual shock system gives 3" less over-rotation when coming off a drop off when compared to the Safari Gard JE III suspension."

http://www.geocities.com/~defender110/suspension/shktest2.jpg

from this it looks to me like on the same drop-off, the truck indeed exhibits less roll than with-out the dual shock setup. what's missing from this graph, however, is the simultaneous extension / compression graph for the opposing wheel. I myself feel some homework coming on.

Either a) he's full of it (i thought i had read that he had a PhD? so this is doubtful) or b) is on to something that i haven't really seen discussed on this board. i'm sure it's been beat to death in other places and among the few of you that were at twist-off, but not here. i'm not on the d90 list, and NM is a long way from seattle.

and of course, by now you're thinking that yet another asshat newbie on this board has hijacked the thread.. wrong. (tell me i'm wrong)

Sam says that the wristed arm felt very unstable and wouldn't go back to it. on OME or another typically soft shock i believe him, and it rebuffs the comments from others i've talked to about the wristed arm. But it seems to me that with absolutely no bind now in the front suspension (maybe less than a 3-link?) that a dual-shock setup such as what CH has done here would make a wristed arm front-end more stable and in turn, once again an acceptable modification.

If you wrist one of your RA's and given how much lift you're running, i think you're going to be in for some nasty surprises. I think the wristed arm is a fundamentally simple, cheap mod with good payoff, and would like to see this thread kick around some ideas to help make it more stable. I think there is probably a method to combine less expensive multi-rate shocks in a custom mount to achieve what he has with $$$ fox adjustables. i have an idea for an experiment to measure the shock travel over an obstacle and, if anyone cares, will put up a diagram later tonight to see if i have identified the right variables. i don't claim to have ever built or designed a suspension, but do have some experience with a little math and lab equipment as a former physics major.


fwiw -

isaac

look,
Stick with apples to apples.

The change in roll center is from the change in geometry and basic suspension design. NOT the fawking shocks.

You are comparing DIFFERENT setups! Of course there are going to be different roll centers!

The spring and link placement effect Roll Center, not shocks. ALL shocks do is provide resistance to the given spring.


It's fiziks.

I would not emulate Chris H's front end on your rig. The setup and the dual shock config. added up to just about 0 (yes I mean zero) front end flex. He had the rear end so loose and flexy that it required a super stiff front end to make it driveable. If you look at some of his flex picts there is about 30/70 % distribution between front/rear flex. It would ramp great though :)

Billster

I have the 3-link and some custom 5" (764ish rate) springs on the 110. I also have some Bilstein 7100's in the 275/85 ish range. It rides very nicely offroad (just ask Slade), has enormous flex (about equal front to back), but did have some body sway on-road.

I now have a rear swaybar (torsion bar type setup) and it helps quite a bit on road, and has reduced body roll in extreme offcamber situations as well. All without limiting much flex. I am super happy with the combo now, and just need to tweak some stuff (like center limiting straps) to get it just right.

Billster

You are comparing DIFFERENT setups! Of course there are going to be different roll centers!

ok ok - settle down, beavis :flipoff2: isn't comparing different setups half the point?

maybe an interesting experiment would be to pony up for a currie anti-rock, or build something similar to what billster has on his rear susp. and then give the Quinn treatment to one of the arms. I want to free up my front end, but the thought of having 12" or more of readily avialble flex on some of the wicked local sidehills scares the chit outta me. If the "pin-out" performance could be brought into line somehow it might could still make for a decent setup.


If you look at some of his flex picts there is about 30/70 % distribution between front/rear flex

i had kind of wondered about that, given that in the graph we are led to believe an increase in extention over a similar obstacle as compared to the single shock.

Originally posted by redrangie


Dude, those are SOOOOOO 2003....


I drive mine on the street too, and they are deadly with a true-trac, and don't last very long...

j

So did you have a think about why your bushes turned to crap and why they were deadly???

Or are you just happy saying that my modification is a POS and leaving it at that.

IMO drilled or slotted radius arm bushes are the best modifications you can do to the front end this side of a SG 3 link.

And as I have explained before a hinged radius arm is perhaps the worse modification you can do IMO.

So tell me what sort of bushes did you drill that performed so badly?? Cause if you drilled the 3 shell bushes then it has got nothing to do with me nor the drilled bushing modification that I posted on this board nor the current cast slotted bushes talked about in the link above.

You should try to get your story straight because I dont appreciate anybody saying anything negative about me or the work that I do (and remember that this is something that I only do for fun and not profit)

Sam

Shock absorbers or spring rates will do nothing to fix the instabilities assiciated with a hinged radius arm setup. It has everything to do with the front axle leavering up and down on one side of the chassis only.

It is this that will tip you over when you least expect it.

Been there done that.

Sam

Sam,
Not a DAMN thing to do with you. Drill both style bushes, but they didn't last on a DD/heavy trail use vehicle. YOUR'S are probably way better, and if you PM me the information, I'll probably buy a set.

Originally posted by redrangie
Sam,
Not a DAMN thing to do with you. Drill both style bushes, but they didn't last on a DD/heavy trail use vehicle. YOUR'S are probably way better, and if you PM me the information, I'll probably buy a set.

Drilled both style eh .... so what were your impressions of the drilled 2 shell bushes, you never did say.

The drilled 2 shell bushes should have worked very well. The heavest rig we had them on was about 6500lb and they would last 20000miles in 6 months, wheeling every 2nd or 3rd weekend. The bushes would never totally fail and would never click - the rig would just start to drive a bit ordinary on the highway.

Sam

I have been runnning a Hinged arm from Quinn for a few years now. I am used to the funky geometry, but I would get rid of it in a secound if I could afford any of the mpods I do to other peoples trucks.

There is no way to fix the funky habits of the hinged arm on a Rover. That is due to the geometry of the radius arms.

The reason they work fairly well on Broncos, is because the radius arm mounts are closer together on the frame than on the axle by a fair amount. This slightly reduces the lever effect that sam described.

You can put all the shocks you want on the truck, and it wont fix the issue.

Oh, and anybody that tries to emulate Chris hinkles old setup, is crazy as hell. I am sure he has fixed the problems by now, but the info you were posting, was from many many years ago. And his truck drove like ass period.

Bottom line, Hinged radius arms on a rover is a BAND AID fix only. Your just asking to flop over on your lid when you least expect it.

The funniest quirk I used to get with my hinged radius arm was to drive a front wheel onto something and then think, shiat - Im going to fall over. And then select reverse and try to reverse off only to find that as soon as lifted the clutch the rig would do nothing but tip over. The funny part about it was that basically I just couldnt move and i would have to get half a dozen blokes hanging of the side of my truck trying to stop it from turning over as I reversed.

Steep downhills were the worse with the hinged arm. Even stuff that was simple could become forward endo material.

Puffdragon - interesting point about the succes of the hinged arm on the broncos - makes a lot of sence.

Sam

Sam,
I think the difference here is possibly terrain. In the Rockies (where I am) 12% graded roads, with 5k feet of elevation gain are the norm. Hell the freeways are 6-8% with some real good curves thrown in.

I went through 3 sets. 1 set of three shell, and two of the two. The two's were the best, but would only last 3-6 months before they would click like made, and alow axle wrap.

The axle wrap on the decents in the mountains was the worst. Not a safe feeling with a 5800lb plus rig.

j