I am rejoicing.

My front axle casing is ready, I am picking it up from the machine shop this weekend.

I used an Eaton rear axle casing from a 60's chevy, and ground/torched everything off of it. I then took all the factory cast perches off a stock series front housing and welded them onto the eaton, trying to keep the axle as factory looking as possible. it's pretty cool. I'm sewercapping the thing as well so the entire axle is going to be housed in a 3/8" thick steel wrapping.

The machine shop spun/faced the entire axle casing (it's not that heavy as the diff pulls out like a rover or 9") and the swivel ball flanges, and cut chamfers in them so I'll have a good weld penetration. I've made a jig to ensure that the caster angle from side to side is identical, so basically what I end up with is a factory looking axle that is set up sprung over with an eaton center chunk with series swivel ball mating flanges. The rear is machined eaton hubs redrilled to a 5 on 6.5 /16 MM studs with disco front rotors and calipers.

The reason I wanted to use series swivels is that they are bigger and I think they are stronger. I replace/rebuild a lot of front end stuff on discos with street tires, ands the series stuff is physically bigger and I like the fact that they don't have steering arms cast into the swivel housings - High steer is really easy with series swivels, and it looks factory when done right.

The "big deal" has been, like everyone, what the hell to use as a CV/U-J as the Cummins/ LT230Q (heheh) / 2X1410/2X Eaton 4.10 will pretty much blow the snot out of anything.

So, right now the fallback plan is to use early 110 CVs and custom inner shafts that would neck down from the 16 spline 1.63" pattern that's in the front diff. It kind of defeats the purpose of running the strongest diff available because the 110 stuff is pretty weak, but at least all the breakage is easily fixed by yanking an axle, no diff pulling required. I've pretty much got everything I need for that - 24 spline drive flanges for a series truck (Late SIII) which should work with the CVs and the machine shop can do the 23 / 16 pattern for really cheap.

What I'm really jonesing for would be what Ike had posted about using Mal Story (ey?) 's custom 4340 swivels and either alloy 60 shafts and CTMs or 101 parts. That's all doable, however I worry about a 960 lbs motor, winch and a 9 foot fisher plow hanging over thinner swivel balls. That seems a little dangerous, I'd want to wait until lighter rigs are running (read beating) that setup before I pony up the cash.

Also, Mal uses a 101 stub axle that bolts right up to a series swivel housing ( I believe this is the rear stub), meaning your outer axleshaft can be upto about 1.5" in diameter. The weird part (that I'm not all that clear on, so correct me if I'm wrong) is that he uses a standard series hub, that's made to work with the 101 stub axle by way of interchange bearings. I remember seeing somewhere that the rear race relief dia. must be enlarged in order to fit a larger diameter race, so that the inner dia can fit over the 101 stub.

One bit of information I don't have regarding this magical swap is the length of the 101 stub axle. If the stub is longer than the series hub, it could be made to work with a longer distance piece that would push the rear bearing out further, but that would mean that any kind of disc brake conversion designed for a stock series truck (BCB) would need to me modified. I suppose one could always create a spacer to move the rotor "in" the same amount as the longer distance piece pushes the hub out.

___________


I thought this post might be a good catalyst for a discussion on the heaviest duty "Land-Rover" (5 on 6.5, closed knuckle) front end that can be built. I welcome any input, I've basically recited all the info I've accumulated over time, I was hoping that everyone else would do the same if they have info to add. I've never seen one of Mal's conversions, and I'd love to, but Oz is a little far. I remember hearing someone using 101 stubs on a series/coiler, hopefully they'll chime in and help me out.

So, fire away, blow holes in my shiatt, and let's try and keep it constructive.

J-L

this thread is useless without pics














:flipoff2:


good shiat.

Originally posted by redrangie
this thread is useless without pics


Knew that was coming :flipoff2:

Well, this thread is a direct result of it being insano-cold. I can't even start the furnace in the shop, the oil has solidified in the pump. I had to light a coleman stove under the oilpan of my car to start it a few days ago, so I'm not exactly in a rover-wrenching mood tonight. We hit the magical point where Fahrenheit = Celsius a few hours ago.

It's pretty bad when you take the drain plug out of an LT230 and you can't get the gear oil out :)

J-L

That sounds very awesome.

but yes - PICS :flipoff2:

I don't know for sure the info you are after but give me a couple of days and I will call Mal and ask him. I am very interested too.

Are you running open in the front? Regardless, it sounds very cool, and very strong.

-Jeff

Have you figured disc brakes into this ultimate front axle ?

pics please

Originally posted by Red Ibex
Have you figured disc brakes into this ultimate front axle ?

Yes.

Using Timm Cooper's hubs and swivel housings allows me to run my beloved vented discs and rangie calipers.

As far as a locker, the detroit is available factory in some eatons, but a selectable locker solution for an Eaton is pretty simple... That's next winter's project.

J-L

Any thoughts about converting the ralco bushing in the series swivel to a bearing as in the coiler swivels? I've seen it done once, the reason being supposedly the CV doesn't sling as much oil as a u-joint and there may be a lube problem. I don't know if this is a fact but the bearings are probably easier to maintain.

JL,
Didnt we have this thread when I was prepping mine?? Sounds like you are about where I was 3 months ago. My finished front end/sewercapped housing is still in the garage and Im debating what to run in it. Hell Im still debating which truck to run it on. Its an expensive project so its sitting collecting dust.
-Ike

Hmmm, sounding like it is getting a little bit pricey. What do you think the final cost for the completed axle installed in the truck will be?

Billster

Originally posted by FrankenRover
Hmmm, sounding like it is getting a little bit pricey. What do you think the final cost for the completed axle installed in the truck will be?

Billster

I see where this is going.....

So answer the question! Enquiring minds want to know:D

Like Ike said, it's expensive. The really pricey bit is the swivels. If it were possible to make them for a reasonable sum (equal or a bit higher than a genuine SIII) it would make it a lot more reasonable.

I'm going to design the swivel this weekend and see about getting it done via CNC turning. I'll let you guys know when I know.

J-L

Stepping back. What about taking a stock 101 front axles. Modify it to take disc brakes, if drums are not your thing. Sounds much easier...

Yah, Yah 5 on 6.5, who really cares about a PITA bolt pattern anyway. We should all be welding up the holes in the rover hubs and drilling for 8 on 6.5. Make wheel shopping much easier.

Because the Eaton/ENV is a cooler axle. Arguably stronger than the 60 centersection with a shorter pinion length. Detachable swivels are nice too. Total cost when I last calculated was about 1500 bucks. Currently I have $280 in the front which is sewercapped and ready to bolt in with stock 1 3/8in axles and drums. and 220 in the matching rear. All the custom junk is expensive. But cmon, its still loads cheaper and stronger than what you coil guys dump into those shitty little front ends. (there I said it). Hell I could just run stock shafts, they are $25 (yes $25) per side.
-Ike

Easy now, no one is calling you out. I just wanted to know what the finished axle (with locker), new swivels, CV's, axles, disc conversion, and all the other crap will cost?

You won't be limited by the center section as far as strength goes, not with those wimpy 1.37" axle shafts.:flipoff2:

Billster

FYI...

I had some spacers made to place my front coil-sprung vented rotors in the correct 'spot' when we switched to the late series III front hubs on the CrewCab.

If you look on my site you can see a pic of the front hub with the spacer (it's black).

Spendy,but it made everything work.

Keep us posted about your Eaton/60.

EDIT:

It's actually on the D90 site under the bios section. Mike Slade, scroll down....you'll know it when you see it.

:flipoff2:

Blister,
With 25 dollar shafts I think I can live with inch and 3/8s. Sure I can allways go to 1.5 inch custom shafts, but why, would take me years to break enough of these to justify the cost. Hell you probably spent more than that on fasteners and paint for your nine inch :flipoff2: In fact you probably spent more on painting your rig than I would spend building these axles :flipoff2:
-Regards
-Ike

but Ike, your clearance with that beast on 7.50's is going to be kind of small, eh? :flipoff2:

JL will be running 11x16s (38's) I don't have mine earmarked for a specific truck yet but I will probably run 35-37s. Id like to put them in my 5 door. Make a nice trip truck. Be kind of wasted on a truck with 7.50s.
-Ike

Sooo, you are saying that you are running full width without cutting down the axles? What is the WMS-WMS of those Eatons?
I assume they are full width. And if so are pretty wide, aren't they?

Does your $1500 include the disc brake conversion and locker?

What gears does it come with stock? And how avail. are aftermarket gearsets?

I am still not sure why you guys want to run closed knuckle axles? Tell me again what the advantage is? Tradition? Warm fuzzy feeling inside? Just like that oil puddle underneath the buggered swivel seal?

Billster

ps. Actually the paint was pretty reasonable considering they did not have to mask or prep anything (it was all in pieces). Thank you very much. They didn't do a very good job though and you can see plenty of yellow peaking out from underneath.



Originally posted by Leafsprung
Blister,
With 25 dollar shafts I think I can live with inch and 3/8s. Sure I can allways go to 1.5 inch custom shafts, but why, would take me years to break enough of these to justify the cost. Hell you probably spent more than that on fasteners and paint for your nine inch :flipoff2: In fact you probably spent more on painting your rig than I would spend building these axles :flipoff2:
-Regards
-Ike

One Ton GM IFS CV's are pretty beefy! .. Porsche 935 CV's are bigg as well as expensive... I have to wonder about those GM CV's.
The nice part about running a closed knuckle is the ability to easily run a CV. Compared to a normal u joint set up the extra smoothness of the power transfer is mighty nice...
I will figure out how to put a good boot on a cv that will work in my front 60 someday...

Keith

Mine are currently stock rover width. 4.7 gears. No aftermarket gearsets avail. 1500 includes the discs, locker. If you want to go all out with shafts gears, fancy swivels, maxidrive air locker etc you are talking about 3K. These arent for everyone. Currently I can run the front open in a truck for under 300 bucks, weld the rear and have a stout PAIR of axles I can beat on with 35s for under 550 bucks, and I have some serious beef to build on over time.
-Ike

Cool, knock yourself out on that.

Billster

Closed or open knuckle, you can run a CV on either. What do you think IFS trucks use. As well a the last model range rover. CV's in open knuckle is old news. You just need a boot, and some grease. I have yet to find a truely benificial reason to use closed knuckle over open. But If I had a choice, I think I would opt for closed. Not sure why, just feels good when I rub my balls.

Originally posted by Puffdragon
Closed or open knuckle, you can run a CV on either. What do you think IFS trucks use. As well a the last model range rover. CV's in open knuckle is old news. You just need a boot, and some grease. I have yet to find a truely benificial reason to use closed knuckle over open. But If I had a choice, I think I would opt for closed. Not sure why, just feels good when I rub my balls.

I prefer closed. I have yet to see a closed nuckle break due to Ujoint/CV failure, but I have seen several broken open types.

-Jeff

I buggered a front CV in the old D90 and drove some with the broken parts inside (pretty much had to). It destroyed the lower swivel pin roller bearing and bearing race and required replacement of the entire ball assembly.

Billster

Originally posted by FrankenRover
I buggered a front CV in the old D90 and drove some with the broken parts inside (pretty much had to). It destroyed the lower swivel pin roller bearing and bearing race and required replacement of the entire ball assembly.

Billster


Exactly my point. You could still drive it.

-Jeff

Originally posted by Puffdragon
Closed or open knuckle, you can run a CV on either. What do you think IFS trucks use. As well a the last model range rover. CV's in open knuckle is old news. You just need a boot, and some grease. I have yet to find a truely benificial reason to use closed knuckle over open. But If I had a choice, I think I would opt for closed. Not sure why, just feels good when I rub my balls.

A big ass 2" piece of wood through your CV boot and having all the grease and gooey goodness get replaced with water REALLY sucks. Or, have that piece of wood get stuck in your open knuckle front end and wreak havoc with your U joint. BTDT.

On rocks I can't really see a big advantage, but in my wheeling conditions (granted, its not hardcore rock crawling) but it's pretty important. Open CVs always get fawked up on quads and IFS trucks around here, the boots tear and shoot goo all over the place.

Not sure what your point is here, as with both closed and open knuckle axles you should stop and pull the components that are broken. At least with the open knuckle you know which side is broken just by looking.

Billster

ps. I have a closed knuckle D60 I would trade for an open knuckle if you guys like them so much.

Originally posted by JSBriggs



Exactly my point. You could still drive it.

-Jeff

Originally posted by FrankenRover
Sooo, you are saying that you are running full width without cutting down the axles? What is the WMS-WMS of those Eatons?
I assume they are full width. And if so are pretty wide, aren't they?

Does your $1500 include the disc brake conversion and locker?

What gears does it come with stock? And how avail. are aftermarket gearsets?

I am still not sure why you guys want to run closed knuckle axles? Tell me again what the advantage is? Tradition? Warm fuzzy feeling inside? Just like that oil puddle underneath the buggered swivel seal?

Billster




The Eaton is a rear axle. It's never been used in the front until now, I think. I am running about 63"width but that's a personal preference thing. I could easily have run it at 58"or 90" if I wanted to, left or right drop. Stock gears are 4.10, 4.57 or 5.14. I have 5.14s bit I'll be swapping for 4.10s because of the engine.

It's all about the warm fuzzy feeling.

Originally posted by FrankenRover
Not sure what your point is here, as with both closed and open knuckle axles you should stop and pull the components that are broken. At least with the open knuckle you know which side is broken just by looking.

Billster

ps. I have a closed knuckle D60 I would trade for an open knuckle if you guys like them so much.




I have seen a few open knuckle ujoint's break, and in turn break the nuckle, leaving the wheel unable to support the weight of the vehicle.

-Jeff

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=2347801

With D60 knuckles and C's? More likely some puny D30's.

Billster

ps. I still do not see an advantage to closed knuckles. In fact in other circles (FSJ and such) closed knuckles are thought of in a very negative fashion. Front M715 Kaiser axles are pulled all the time for open knuckle D60's (and not just to upgrade to 35 spline stuff). The reputation of closed knuckle design is lacking outside the Rover community. But smoke'em if you got'em.

Originally posted by JSBriggs



I have seen a few open knuckle ujoint's break, and in turn break the nuckle, leaving the wheel unable to support the weight of the vehicle.

-Jeff

Ike, what is the spline pattern of the ENV stuff? That front Eaton - is it really an Eaton or an ENV, because these are not identical. I wish I had a FC ENV to compare with one of my Eatons to see how similar they are but the Eaton's a bit bigger I think.

The good news is that the machinist that did my axletube is a freaking genius, he did beautiful work and even notched the end flanges slightly so they fit in the axletube and they are perfectly centred, so all I need to do is run a 1" threaded rod through the center to squeeze the flanges inward so they don't pull when I weld them, and make sure that the caster angle is the same from side to side. I've also now got the 1410 flange type yoke for the Eaton, and the LT230 to A518 adapter shaft should be ready next week.

The bad news is that my daily driver just exploded last night, half of the tranny I had to pick up off the road and I lost all drive. So I guess either I move my ass with the 109 or I buy another POS car.

That pic is of a pair of axles out of an older International (note the width). Sorry to hear about your car. Wanna buy a rover? Hehehe. Keep me posted on you progress.
-Ike

If it's an IH it's a corp. IH axle most likely. Let me guess - the diff cover is welded on and it looks kinda like an Eaton? It's not that bad of an axle, actually, but it's got a 5.87 gear. Has it got Tractas?

J-L

How are you going to keep the axle tubes straight when you weld them on? Clamping with some all thread will not be enough. The heat from welding the tubes will bend and bow the tubes quite a bit. You may run into trouble with the fit of the axles in the hubs (especially if they are full floaters and the axles are pretty close to the size of the stub axle holes). May not be such a big deal if they are not full floaters though.

Billster (just thinkin' out loud)

Originally posted by FrankenRover
How are you going to keep the axle tubes straight when you weld them on? Clamping with some all thread will not be enough. The heat from welding the tubes will bend and bow the tubes quite a bit. You may run into trouble with the fit of the axles in the hubs (especially if they are full floaters and the axles are pretty close to the size of the stub axle holes). May not be such a big deal if they are not full floaters though.

Billster (just thinkin' out loud)

These are the end flanges, not the perches. The only welding that I'm doing on the front housing is at the very end where the swivel ball flange is - the original rear axle was wide enough that I was able to cut off a bit on one side, more on the other, and have an offset axlecasing with no joints in the housing, for the front.

Welding at the end of the tube won't distort anything enough to matter. When doing perches and other stuff in the middle of the axle you should preheat and ideally run a brace/jig of some sort, but I never do on Eaton axletubes, the logic is that if you're a good welder and you preheat the heating is fairly well distributed. If you're running too hot a pool and don't preheat I'd be a little worried.

I do agree that if I were building a setup like the custom 9"stuff (center formed housing welded to the axle tubes) you would need a bar thru the centre and machined pieces to keep everything perfect.

Originally posted by FrankenRover


Billster

ps. I have a closed knuckle D60 I would trade for an open knuckle if you guys like them so much.





If you want to cut the balls off that axle I might take it off your hands. I will see about locating some D60 knuckles in exchange.

Why couldn't a guy find a buggered swivel ball. Cut off the flange. Weld the flange to the big closed knuckle balls and then use the oversized CV of his choice. Of course putting on the brake rotors is going to be a hurdle as well. And the axle housing and center need to be worth the trouble.

I have been waiting for this thread for quite a while now. Keith I think you have more to add then you are so far.

Handbuilt glad to see your progress on this project. Do not get to comfortable a replacement car. It might slow down your progress on this.

JP

Time for an update.

I've been pretty busy changing freelander motors last week, but I managed to fawk around with the swivels to figure out how much clearance you can get out of them.

The short answer is I'm not going to touch it at all. I did some measuring and this is what's needed to run a 101 CV (or a 60 sized U joint) in a series knuck; you need a thinner bearing, plus the size of the "sphere" must be enlarged quite a bit. It's definitely doable but I don't like how thin the swivel gets and the railko bush/top pin must be moved up and out of the way as well. I'm worried that the thinner walls of the swivel ball, along with my 5000 lbs truck with a serious front weight bias, aren't going to live well together, especially with a plow on the front.

I've decided to use 101 swivels/housings/stubs/hubs and I'll just modify those for discs and 5 on 6.5. I'm going to cut down the 101 front axle and graft series swivel ball flanges to the 101 swivels so I can bolt them on conventionally, so if further down the line another alternative comes along, I can change over to something different. I'll need custom inner axles (30 spline inner for 14 bolt gears in Eaton) to 22 spline for 101CV.

I'll revive this post in a while when I get the parts. I'm going to england in May so I might just wait and get them then.

J-L

The swivels Mal makes are from 4140 then heat treated. He has installed them into the back of 130's and other big heavy LR's with no problems. The 130 had a 3500lb payload on top of the weight of the truck. So that would be well over 5000lb total.

Yes, but there is no mention of how long the thinner bearing lasts, or what kind of use they are seeing. I would assume Mal's design is very good, but I wanted to design my own, and I don;t think I'm going to do that anymore. It's just too much work and engineering, whereas using a complete 101 swivel is a lot easier and I know it'll be perfect from day one.

J-L