Just wonding what your guys opinions are on it... I have never been a hardcore fabricator but am finding that I am doing a shitload of it really for the first time in my life with this last rig. Nothing crazy, mostly motor mounts crossmembers, body work and other misc fab... In the last couple of days I have breathed in a shitload of metal dust, I have worn a mask at times but because it's a PITA don't that often, only unless "I'm really getting into it." How often do you guys wear masks and has breathing the dust caused any problems? I have been working like a dog for the last week-two, my full time job then about full time down at the shop trying to get this thing done... Last night I developed a pretty nasty cough and generally feel like shit, partly because I've run myself down and partly because of the dust I believe...

Any comments? I'm interested in hearing if you can get sick from fabrication... I know about the pending lawsuits against the major manufacturers from stick welding. Luckily I am Mig welding... But at the same time, I am using 100% CO2 any danger in breathing in those fumes as well?

The metal dust really tears up my sinuses and leads to sinus infections. If I'm doing anything other then a quick pass on the sander then I wear a mask. You know you've been at it too long by the sheeot you blow out of your nose.

Go down and find a comfortable mask, something you don't mind wearing and has replaceable filters.

I am a pretty healthy individual, and I am pretty resiliant to such things, but I will tell you that when I work for an hour or two doing grinding and I dont wear a mask, I can smell the metal in my skin, I feel it in my lungs, and it makes me very uncomfortable. On the reality side of it, metal rusts. Your body is 66 - 70% water. You do the math. Rust cant be good.

The metal that gets into my lungs makes me hack for at least 2 - 3 hours afterwards. I would recommend always wearing a mask when metal is flying around.

Check these respirators out:
http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2004/513.cfm?

I just received an order of them and they are very comfortable.

Originally posted by KC_JoNeS
On the reality side of it, metal rusts. Your body is 66 - 70% water. You do the math. Rust cant be good.

The metal that gets into my lungs makes me hack for at least 2 - 3 hours afterwards. I would recommend always wearing a mask when metal is flying around.

Actualy rust, or more directly iron, is why your blood is red :) iron bonds with the o2 in your blood and carrys it to the cels. However, I can't emagin breathign in tons of metal dust is good for you. I know when I work on a reciver (part time gunsmith) i wear my mask. If I don't I can feal it in my breathing for hours after.

I got super sick (realy nasty hacking cough, tasted like blood but none visible) a few weeks ago from fabricating.

I had just come back from a high school basketball game, where I was screaming quite ludly most of the game. My throat was hoarse and I could feel it.

I proceeded to weld on some very greasy, nasty metal, of which all the smoke went right under my helmet :rolleyes: and into my lungs.

After that, I was cleaning some parts with brake cleaner, and the caustic smell of that got right to me as well.

I was in rough shape for a few days, from then on I have always worn a mask to protect myself, not so much from the metal dust but from the fumes and other associated things.

it makes for some good boogers. i normally dont wear anything but most of the stuff i do is outside

I always wear a mask, but I do a lot of rubber grinding too, and that just sucks to breathe in. I just use the cheapie cotton masks though.. so far so good

Right after x-mas I got a metal shaving in my ear ( i believe) and got a SERIOUS ear enfection (ear sweeled shut). I am to the point now that when I so almost any work, I have gloves, boots, eye protection, a face shield, ear protection, and most of the time a resperator on.

Ya, it isnt confterable, but nieher is being in the emergency room, and having your ear hurting so bad you cant move.

I will take the safety equiptment ANYTIME

Each night after you are done grinding, be sure to clean your nose out real good when you shower. I shoot the water up my nose and blow it out, it has made a huge difference for me since I started doing this.

i weld/grind/carbon arc/torch 10 hours a day, 4-5 days a week. its nasty fluxcore/ CO2 shielded 1/16'' wire that smokes like a SOB and most of the welding is done in positions were you inhale A LOT of smoke. ive been working like this for about 4 months now and ive noticed a drastic UNWANTED change in the length of my penis, i have a constant case of diarrea farts, it seems im going bald suddenly and i have black boogers the size of small rodents???

yea, blowin your nose is nasty after a few hours in the garage with the grinder:eek: I bought a box of the little paper masks and I'm not sure they do much good. I can't get them to seal up good around my mouth and nose. Plus, if your wearing safety glasses every time you exhale they fog up and you can't see shit :mad:

Originally posted by Hickeyjones
Each night after you are done grinding, be sure to clean your nose out real good when you shower. I shoot the water up my nose and blow it out, it has made a huge difference for me since I started doing this.

Don't worry I let them fly like it is going out of style.. Nice and black...

I also try to vent the room whenever possible, I open up the garage for about 5 minutes and let the air clear out and it makes a difference but it is cold up here so I can't just leave it open...

Booger Weldz you made me laugh a little but I hope for your sake you are joking at least a little!

Originally posted by Hickeyjones
Each night after you are done grinding, be sure to clean your nose out real good when you shower. I shoot the water up my nose and blow it out, it has made a huge difference for me since I started doing this.

But at the same time today was really the first day boogers and silt were in there the day after... I will definetly start wearing my mask more often. I had a piece of metal fall into my eye a couple of months ago (remember that thread) and that did suck, indeed!

No health insurance on this end. What could happen right? :rolleyes:

I just use a fan or hope for a good breeze and do what I gotta do. If I'm gunna be sitting in one spot for awhile (like grinding a caliper or something) I'll throw a cheapie paper mask on. The big grey snot rockets fly after and take a good shower and no problems so far. :D

You only get one set of lungs so don't fab without filtering them.
You chose either a cigarette or a mask/respirator.

I use a mask about 50% of the time I should and I can tell when I should have after the fact. If you are asking then you obviously should be wearing them.

I have a respirator and I buy 3M masks that have a neopream (<SP) seal area and they work great.

it just makes my boogers black.

If there is metal in the air, more than likely there is silicate in the air. BAD STUFF. I now wear lots of diposable masks in the garage. I also keep a box of ear plugs nailed to the wall.



beerman

Originally posted by Booger Weldz
i weld/grind/carbon arc/torch 10 hours a day, 4-5 days a week. its nasty fluxcore/ CO2 shielded 1/16'' wire that smokes like a SOB and most of the welding is done in positions were you inhale A LOT of smoke. ive been working like this for about 4 months now and ive noticed a drastic UNWANTED change in the length of my penis, i have a constant case of diarrea farts, it seems im going bald suddenly and i have black boogers the size of small rodents???

Is that why last time I passed through Oakdale it smelled so bad in certain parts? :flipoff2:

i work in my fab shop during the day and still work fulltime nights, 17 hours a day in steel fab gets to you, i wear a mask as much as i can but there is some times when i dont. i feel it when i dont, take some advice from a newbe to this site and where a mask as much as you can, jason.

It really pays to get a good respirator because that usually makes the difference between wearing it all the time or wearing it some of the time. My biggest issue is sweating under the respirator, I actually feel more uncomfortable due to that usually than when my head is full of metal shavings.

Black crap in your nose = respirator time. No crap = no respirator.

ever see the picture on the net of the guy making a ninja face wrap out of a tshirt? i've been working on my jeep, while prepping my 8.8 for mounts and perches i used a shirt .bought some masks but they sucked, didn't fit my face right and they fell apart. ninja face wrap...put tshirt on but leave the hole around your face, pull the rest towards the back and tie the arms around the back of your head, fold the collar of the hole in up over your nose and the top in just above your eyes. works well with those cheap welding goggles when grinding. got a spark in my ear, and then a couple particles drifted into my regular goggles necessitating a trip to the ER. since then i've been all about the green goggles and a tshirt wrapping my head.

I am welding, cutting and grinding 8-10 hrs a day.

I dont wear a mask or face shield or safety glasses or gloves...

I am an idiot for doing so.

My left hand reeks of C25 after a day of welding. My hand/arm has weld splatter marks all over. I have burn marks below my left wrist.

I would wear gloves if I could find some that are more user friendly. and I would have a face mask if my dog hadnt dragged it away and chewed it up :mad:

i have never worn a mask - but the thought has crossed my mind.

i dont spend as many hours welding, cuting, burning, and grinding as most of you - so it hasn't really been a priority.

only time i get the black boogers is if i'm doing TONS of grinding and I'm out in the garage for nearly the whole day (thats rare)

Otherwise, my skin just gets a little dirty.

A couple of weeks ago at work they made us watch this saftey film. When I first started watching it it was the same old shit, but they got to a part about welding and grinding. They reccomenend two different types of resperators, one for welding and one for grinding. Apparently the filters are different, and do not interchange on the same resperator.I am still trying to find the different kinds.

I called the welding shop I use and the guy had no idea. Anyone heard of this?

Thanks,

Ryan

when i worked as a fitter there were guys who had been in the business for years and it showed. respiratory problems are a little more common in fitters/welders due to the dust, debris, etc. the worst i got in the 1.5 years i was a fitter was lots of black boogers (daily) and one sinus infection. i never wore a respirator or mask. other guys i worked with had assorted coughs and hacks all day long. some had arthritis and stiffness. i'd wear a clear shield if i was grinding something that might shoot sparks at my face but otherwise it was just regular safety glasses (reflected some welding rays as well as protect from debris). usually i wore welding gloves if welding, or some fitted leather gloves if i was burning, fitting, etc. if you're just throwing down roughly a month out of the year i wouldn't worry about it too much unless you're susceptible (sp?) to sinus problems easily.

Originally posted by TexasBlake
it just makes my boogers black.

yeah me too never had a probem, I rearly weare a mask ever, cant stand them


sanding mahogany makes my boogers red :D

I can't find a single source for the dangers of breathing the dust of various metals but if you look here there are individual listings for many of the most commonly encountered metals. http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/metalsheavy/index.html


I also found this list of sypotoms caused by welding fumes:
http://www3.gov.ab.ca/hre/whs/publications/pdf/ch032.pdf

Also this info on sand blasting:
http://www.osha.gov/Silica/IT69D_1.html

I don't even want to look at the links......I work in a fab shop for 8 hrs a day 5 days a week....with 6-8 welders buzzing all day and lately it's been so cold in the morning the doors stay closed...some days there is a haze...the metal boogs are a daily thing...I still smell like metal after a shower. I think I get a little cough from the norm welding but the only stuff that I really notice is when I spray weld I get a sore throat (ox2 gas)....spool gun alum makes me cough (helium gas), and air arc...and when I'm stuck on the chop saw for hours that get's me a little nautious...cough too......but I can't find a good mask that 1. doesn't fog up the safety glasses and 2. fits under the welding helmet......when I'm stuck on the chop saw long enough I just put on a paper mask but to vent it away from the top I flip the bottom up a little and the small gap lets the rush of air escape from the bottom. and it sounds funny but when stuck in the cloud when welding I hold my breath until the bead is done and take a step away when done....doesn't work too well on the 2 ft beads though :D :emb2:

Okay guys, I'll make it simple: ALL inhaled particulates are bad for you. Smoke is just a very small particulate.

Now, some aren't as bad as others, some are pretty damned nasty.

Leave aside the chemical/toxicity aspect for the moment, when you inhale, some particulates are trapped before they make it to your lungs, by the linings of your throat, or especially by the hairs and mucus membranes in your sinuses.

However, some of it does make it to your lungs- the dustier or smokier it is, or the longer you stay there, the worse it is for you.

Once in the lungs, the particulates get trapped in the moist surfaces of the alveoli, the points where oxygen is transferred to the bloodstream.

Some particulates can be broken down by the bloodstream, dissolved and eliminated as waste through the kidneys. Some materials, like smoke (carbon) paint (a plastic-like material) road-dust (pulverized rock) or metals (especially stainless steels) cannot be broken down by the body.

In these cases, the lungs "encyst" the particulates- the tiny bits are enclosed in a material much like a scab, so it doesn't irritate the lung tissue anymore. With me so far?

The problem is, the cyst formation is cumulative, like clogging an air filter over time. Typically, most people have excess lung capacity- you could, if needed, process more oxygen than you usually need day-to-day. So you can get away with clogging up some of it with the trapped particulates, but each time you do it, you permanently lose a small percentage of your lung capacity.

You're fine now (except for the nasty cough and the black boogers) but in ten years, maybe as long as twenty (maybe as little as five) you're going to start finding yourself winded just climbing a flight of stairs. You no longer have enough lung capacity for even day-to-day activities.

And even if you stop then, and never inhale any contaminants again, the ones already in there continue to produce the "scar tissue", which continues to reduce your lung capacity.

The old guys you see rolling around those thin green oxygen tanks? Bingo, that's something to look forward to, isn't it? You no longer have the lung capacity to get enough oxygen out of the air, so you have to carry around a bottle just to have enough O2 to walk into the Post Office.

No matter how uncomfortable a dust mask or respirator is, no matter how annoying fogged glasses are from a leaky nose piece, no matter how inconvenient it is to find a mask that fits under a welding helmet, try and imagine how uncomfortable or inconvenient it is to have to suck on an oxygen mask for five minutes just to have enough wind to walk to the bathroom to take a leak.

Doc.

Originally posted by Doc Nickel
The old guys you see rolling around those thin green oxygen tanks? Bingo, that's something to look forward to, isn't it? You no longer have the lung capacity to get enough oxygen out of the air, so you have to carry around a bottle just to have enough O2 to walk into the Post Office.

I always thought there was Helium in those green bottles.....

oh, and those black boogers = yum-yum! :flipoff2:

Don't forget about cutting too. I build tables/furniture (metal) and I forgot to wear my mask while cutting out table tops. about 12 1 foot circles. NASTY NASTY NASTY

Plasma's blow a lot of really fine dust around...

A few years back I had to cut some 3/8 galvanized diamond plate for work with ox/acceteline (sp) and ended up coughing up a little bit of blood later that night. I continued with a nasty cough for a few days after that. If I knew back then what I do now. The zink in galv is very bad to be inhaling. I worked with alot of galv material for about 6 years building communication towers but used band saws to cut normaly. I don't even want know what all the cold galv spray I have used over the years has done to my lungs.

Well i dont really ever where a mask when fabbing. I wear a face sheild and ear protectors when needed. But the thing is, every time that i need a mask, i also need a face shield(or goggles). And when wearing a mask, when i breath it makes it really hot inside of it and stuff, and it goes into my face shield or goggles and fogs them up like crazy. So my question is how do you keep your goggles or face shield from fogging up while wearing a mask?
Thanks
Andrew

OK, time for a lil bit about respirators.

The thin paper masks are only effective for stopping nuisance dust, meaning stuff that makes you sneeze etc. It doesnt do a thing for respirable particles <5 microns. Respriable particles are those small enough to not be caught by the cilia in your esophagus/lungs and naturally swept back out and away via breathing/sneezing.

A proper respirator will have removable cartridges, and cartridge selection depends on the contaminate encountered. You must also be fitted to the respirator, either through the use of irritant smoke (qualitative testing)or better, a fit test computer system that measures the ammount of contaminants outside the mask and compares it to the count inside the mask to determine how much is getting past the seal without passing through the filters (quantative testing).

Buying and wearing a respirator wont do crap for you if you dont change the cartridges daily (exception would be hepa filters which can be worn untill breathing becomes more difficult due to clogging).

Most complaints in this thread consist of "the mask isnt comfortable" or "it foggs my glasses" Basic human instinct is to not wear something if it isnt comfortable, so try other types of respirators untill you find one that is. When you do write down what make model, and size it is so you will be able to replace it down the road. Even if you dont take the time to fit test, or dont have access to someplace that can, a respirator that fits you comfortably, with the proper cartridges will do you alot more good then wearing nothing.

There are tons of different makes and models out there, I use MSA's ultra elite series of full faced respirators for work, size medium. I've tried Scott, Survive Aire, S-tron, and a couple others and the MSA is best for me. Couldnt even pass a fit test on the Scott due to my facial shape.

I have the industrial hygenist at work interested and the next big fab project I get were going to set up sampeling pumps to send out for analysis, and particulate counters to see just how bad it gets in the shop. Hey, I'm on a hazmat team and have the gear here, so why not.

And no I usually dont wear a respirator when welding unless I have to work with galvanized crap. I always have a fan going unless using mig or tig, so that helps a bit, but after an hour or two ya can hardly see the back of the shop for the smoke in there.

edit: I am by no means a respirator expert, I just have to wear em on a regular basis. We have an in house IH that will talk your ear off about respirators all day long. This is all off the top of my head since all my refrences are at work.

Picked this up from the NIOSH respirator selection guide web page (Edited).
The way I read it, iron and Iron oxide (rust) dust is a long term exposure risk at low levels and more accelerated at high. The result is basically fibroid tumors in the lungs over the long haul with continuous exposure if one fails to use protection of some sort.

The number to look at is the OSHA PEL (Permissible exposure over an 8 hr day). 10mg/m3 is a pretty dusty environment over 8 hrs.

The way I see it, iffen yer shade tree wrench I really wouldnt worry about it unless you like to fuss.

If yer a 9-5 fabricator that gets a snoot full fairly regularly Id consider wearing something.

Of course if you happen to be a fabricator and dont think its worth the trouble/arent too worried about carrying an O2 bottle in your later years, well thats your choice because its really a chronic risk issue not an acute under "normal" circumstances just like cigs are...

NIOSH Pocket Guide to Chemical Hazards
Iron oxide dust and fume (as Fe) CAS 1309-37-1
Fe2O3 RTECS NO7400000
NO7525000 (fume)
Synonyms & Trade Names
Ferric oxide, Iron(III) oxide
Exposure
Limits NIOSH REL: TWA 5 mg/m3
OSHA PEL: TWA 10 mg/m3
IDLH 2500 mg/m3 (as Fe)
Physical Description
Reddish-brown solid. [Note: Exposure to fume may occur during the arc-welding of iron.]

Personal Protection & Sanitation
Skin: No recommendation
Eyes: No recommendation
Wash skin: No recommendation
Remove: No recommendation
Change: No recommendation
Breathing: Respiratory support
Respirator Recommendations NIOSH
Up to 50 mg/m3: (APF = 10) Any dust, mist, and fume respirator/(APF = 10)

Exposure Routes: inhalation
Symptoms: Benign pneumoconiosis with X-ray shadows indistinguishable from fibrotic pneumoconiosis (siderosis)
Target Organs respiratory system


D.

My new job requires me to grind and weld and buff and scuf and bang on metal all day. mostly grinding and buffing, tho. The first week or so i didnt wear anything besides glasses and gloves. the guy i work with never wears anything else. i got sick of haulkin up monster black loogs and blowing black boogers out of my nose so I told the boss i wanted a mask. we have paper ones with a little filter thing in the middle. they also have a metal strip at the top to form over you nose. after a day i had it set so that it wont fog up my safety glasses. im sure im still getting some crap in my lungs, but no more nasty boogers.

also noticed the guy i work with, who has been there for a few years, has been stuffed up for more than a week and has been having problems in his joints. hes ignornant, so let him fuck himself up if he wants. not me, tho.

but anyways, try the paper masks with the filter thingy in the middle that have the metal strip at the top. they arent uncomfortable to me (8 hrs a day, 5 days a week)

When I worked as a sheet metal worker/ hvac apprentice, I would get stuck at the chop saw for hours on end, and after a long day I would be wheezing and have difficultly breathing. I also noticed a some of the same symptoms when welding galv. material-so I began using a disposable type fume/ dust mask and keeping the area I was working in vented better.

Now when fabbing, I try to wear my the mask, but I usually either forget or am too lazy to use it, although grinding on metal releases a lot of harmful crap into the air and if you will be doing this to any serious extent or cannot avoid breathing in the vapors, you need to look into getting yourself a mask that will filter fumes as welll as particules

Originally posted by MossMan
yea, blowin your nose is nasty after a few hours in the garage with the grinder:eek: I bought a box of the little paper masks and I'm not sure they do much good. I can't get them to seal up good around my mouth and nose. Plus, if your wearing safety glasses every time you exhale they fog up and you can't see shit :mad:

My exact experience with those damn masks. I need to find a better solution. The black boogs freak me out every time, and I feel like shit for a couple of hours afterwards.

Originally posted by Booger Weldz
i weld/grind/carbon arc/torch 10 hours a day, 4-5 days a week. its nasty fluxcore/ CO2 shielded 1/16'' wire that smokes like a SOB and most of the welding is done in positions were you inhale A LOT of smoke. ive been working like this for about 4 months now and ive noticed a drastic UNWANTED change in the length of my penis, i have a constant case of diarrea farts, it seems im going bald suddenly and i have black boogers the size of small rodents???

Paul - you should know better than this and I strongly encourage you to use a respirator if you are not presently.

The Silica contained in cutting/grinding disks are also a health hazard.

Another post similar in subject to this: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=1190804

"Levels of airborne contaminants that workers can be exposed to without suffering health effects have been
established by the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH). These
guidelines for allowable exposures are called Threshold Limit Values (TLVs) and are calculated as
milligrams per cubic metre of air (mg/m3). In most cases, exposure is measured over a full 8 hour work
shift, and is referred to as a time weighted average. The 8 hour daily exposures can also be averaged over
a 40 hour week. In addition, the ACGIH has published maximum short term exposure levels that apply to
any 15-minute period, and ceiling levels which must never been exceeded.
Threshold Limit Values are considered the maximum levels that average worker can be exposed to
without adverse health effects. They should not be interpreted as goals when designing a work activity. The
reduction of all contaminants to the lowest possible level should always be the ultimate goal."

Zinc oxide, fume 10 mg/m^3

Silica, fused, respirable dust 0.42 mg/m^3 (I.E. cutting/grinding discs)

Welding fume not otherwise classified 5 mg/m^3

When I am working as a welder I wear one of these all day everyday:

http://www.northsafety.com/images/products/head/L_BP1002.jpg


I always find it odd that many people have no trouble spending $1000+ on a welder, $250+ on a helmet but won't spend $50 for a respirator and some decent gloves.

I find this thread very interesting since it's something I've been thinking about. I spend at least 8 hrs. a day 5 days a week in a fab shop myself. Luckily we cut mostly with a hydro shear, foot shear, or bandsaw. Rarely do we need the chop saw. The worst stuff we get is from the occasional grinding, plasma torch, and welders. Normally there is just one welder running at a time, so the smoke doesn't get very thick. But when we can see a bad haze at the ceiling we try to vent the place out.. Summer time will be much nicer. Our plan is to fab a ventilation system over the main welding table when we have the time. I hope that's sooner than later. Also have talked about a specific room just for grinding, which I will push very hard if we build the new shop. I guess I'm trying to say that I'm concerned as well, though I've yet to see any ill effects beyond what I've experienced before (black boogers). Do you other guys working in a shop work where there's little to no ventilation? Personally, I hate the plasma torch. That fine dust it makes bugs me the worst.

I always find it odd that many people have no trouble spending $1000+ on a welder, $250+ on a helmet but won't spend $50 for a respirator and some decent gloves.

OR better yet NOT wearing a helmet when welding because someone like Jesse James or Paul Jr on American Chopper doesnt or because its "only tacks". Then again those that chose to not protect their eyes will find out about the concept of cumulative exposure in the form of cataracts or retinal burns.

On the dust issue, I'd hit the NIOSH web site. The info takes a bit to get through but its informative as to recommended types. Personally I wont wear a paper because of fit, durability and life issues. Those without the charcoal filters as part of the paper mask are also not good for chemical fumes only dust. The minute one sees a bit of color inside, it needs to be replaced. Because its reached its life in the enviroment the wearer is in.

D.

so now let's turn this into a resperator info thread.....where to get what? how much??.....like the one pictured....I now have the urge to go to home depot and check some out but don't want to buy one that isn't really doing me good when I need the scuba gear pic'd

Looks cool on an Xray:( I recently started having some breathing problems, and the doctor thought that I had pnemonia. After a chest xray, it turned out that he was sort of right. After 3 months of doing a bunch of grinding and using the chop saw in a closed shop, I had inhaled enough metal dust and abrasive dust to make my xray sparkle in a way that really confused my yuppie doctor, which also caused a lung infection.

On the plus side, it has gotten better and there is most likely no permanent damage. At a minimum I'll be wearing a dust mask, and probabally a respirator next time I have to do that kind of work inside (damn cold in MN)

Well I use one like the one from this link.

http://www.labsafety.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=29491&parent_id=12698

When I was the Incident commander for the Emergency Response Team where I used to work and they ley me keep the APR, just not the scba.

The same outfit (Lab Safety Supply) and the same brand (North) sells one that wont break the bank 1/2 face @ $26.00

http://www.labsafety.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=29514&parent_id=12699

The killer on costs because they have a maximum life is cartridges. Iffen one is only concerned about particulates then the P100 filters @ ~$8/ pair isnt too bad.

You keep the mask clean and baggied when not in use, itll last a lifetime. I got mine in '92 and have only had to replace elements over that time frame...
Charcoal filters and the HEPA type are good in the box for about 2 yrs (shelf life). Iffen is for work, sometimes if one approaches the boss with a suggestion that you will get your own mask and the company provides the filters thats not to bad a trade off cost wise...

D.

Nice to come back to this thread and see so many responses. Myself, I am definetely the casual fabricator, I am honestly more concerned about the metal dust rather than the welding fumes in this case because the metal dust is so much more prevailant... I have been wearing a thin paper mask but that is about it. The problem is I am doing maintenance type things (ie no mask) and a large or clunky mask is not fun or practical, the paper ones you can wear casually until you need them. Is there a decent paper mask setup that would work for a metal dust type situation? Also not sure if anyone answered, is 100% CO2 much more dangerous that other sheilding gasses when MIG welding (indoors?)...?

Is there a decent paper mask setup that would work for a metal dust type situation?

Most like shown in the below link are.

http://www.labsafety.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=39116&parent_id=10481

I've used this type without too much hassle. The thing to realise is that they are "limited" not permanent use. In other words pitch them when they get dirty or one can see crud inside.
The cheapie "blue" medical ones are for bloodborne pathogen and not designed for use in dust because they only filter large chunks-splashes...

Also not sure if anyone answered, is 100% CO2 much more dangerous that other sheilding gasses when MIG welding (indoors?)...?

As gas out of the bottle it is in the same category with Nitrogen (N2), Argon (Ar) and Helium (He), simple asphyxiants. The concentration gets too high and you'll pass out.
CO2 has the ability to form Carbon Monoxide (CO) when welding, its toxic at a lower amount than CO2 proper.

IMO, better to have some ventilation for "extended" and continuous welding stints in fully enclosed areas regardless of what gas one uses. A window fan set up to suck air to the outside works well enough to keep concentrations down to acceptable levels in the classical single car garage shop. BTDT

D.

Originally posted by ToyFamily
so now let's turn this into a resperator info thread.....where to get what? how much??.....like the one pictured....I now have the urge to go to home depot and check some out but don't want to buy one that isn't really doing me good when I need the scuba gear pic'd


I use both the North and 3M half masks depending on the situation. Because I have much more experience with the North line I will use their products as examples.

The "scuba gear" part of the mask is an attachment for use under welding helmets:

http://www.northsafety.com/images/products/1466/3739-113-01.jpg

http://www.northsafety.com/images/products/1466/4134-113-01.jpg

In my location there are numerous industrial safety supply shops that will fit test and supply you with masks & cartridges. Acklands up here will also fit test and sell equipment, with just a half mask with some P-100 particulate filters should be under $50. Add in the backpack adapters and a Defender cartridge and you are looking at $100.

There are a multitude of different cartridges available to suit the enviroment they are used in. To help with this North has a web based application to help you select the proper cartridge as well as numerous resources such as posters, e-mail and toll free technical support.

I generally run a P-100 filter for grinding on uncoated steel:

http://www.northsafety.com/images/products/head/L_7580P100A.jpg

And a Defender/P-100 cartridge when working with coated (Painted, Galvinized and Exotic metals) as well as welding or cutting:

http://www.northsafety.com/images/products/head/L_75SCP100.jpg

To simplify things I use a 3M half mask with the P-100 filter which will fit under a welding helmet, as will the North. The North with the backpack adapter I use with the Defender cartridge because they will not fit under the helmet.

I have read many complaints in this thread that it is uncomfortable, awkward, fogs up my visor etc. Once you become used to a respirator you hardly notice it is there. I also think that dying a painful death from Cancer is uncomfortable and awkward. As a fiscal motivation for those of you in the U.S. how much $$$ is an extended stay in the hospitial going to cost you in co-pays etc if you even have medical insurance?

Originally posted by dieselcruiserhead
The problem is I am doing maintenance type things (ie no mask) and a large or clunky mask is not fun or practical, the paper ones you can wear casually until you need them. Is there a decent paper mask setup that would work for a metal dust type situation?

A 3M or North halfmask with the P-100 pancake style filter is much more effective and only marginally larger than a paper one:

http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver.dyn?qqqqqq&8iBEqKUrq1UrqqqRfPBtQQQQ5-

This also has the advantage of fitting properly which a P-95 paper mask will never do, especially when ones body is in awkward placement.

Originally posted by jdjanda
The metal dust really tears up my sinuses and leads to sinus infections. If I'm doing anything other then a quick pass on the sander then I wear a mask. You know you've been at it too long by the sheeot you blow out of your nose.

Go down and find a comfortable mask, something you don't mind wearing and has replaceable filters.

Exact same deal with me. I'm a really healthy guy and when I'm in a wood or metal shop it just absolutely fawkin kills me. Can't breathe, sinus infection for like a week afterwards, headaches, etc etc.

Just to clarify for everyone.

SCUBA: Self Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus

used by divers, the tank setup you see on tv.

SCBA: Self Contained Breathing Apparatus

This is the land based version of the scuba setup commonly seen on firefighters.

APR: Air Purifying Resperator

Uses cartridges to filter ambiant air, whats being discussed in this thread. My teams standard operating procedures state that to use an APR you must have the following

Acceptable O2 levels 19-23%
Known contaminant with approved cartridge for that contaminant
Contaminant must have adequate warning properties (have to be able to smell it so you know if your experiencing break through of the cartridges.

PAPR: Powered Air Purifying Respirator

Same as an APR, but has a battery powered fan system that forces ambiant air through the filters, reduces fatigue of the person wearing the respirator since breathing effort is reduced.

The P100 cartridge that has been mentioned here is a HEPA filter (High Effiency Particulate Air) and is good for particulate use only. The Defender P100 cartridge, I'm not familiar with, but I'm guessing its similar to the GMEP100 that I use regularly with my MSA mask. Each cartridge will include a list of chemicals that it will effectivly filter out, and in the last few years some "Super" (my own term) cartridges have become available that will work with a huge ammount of different chemicals, the GMEP100 is one of these.

Since this is turning into a respirator thread I thought I'd throw this info out there.

Anybody know if the North APR's have changed filter styles in the past few years? I have one of their half face APR's laying around, and would love to use it with the backpack and Defender/P100 cartidges. Thanks.

-Jon

Originally posted by Otis
Anybody know if the North APR's have changed filter styles in the past few years? I have one of their half face APR's laying around, and would love to use it with the backpack and Defender/P100 cartidges. Thanks.

-Jon


For the past 5+ years that I have been using them the connections have been the same - just a threaded connection with rubber washers for sealing.

I bought a resporator at home depot thurs night (general purpose good for "toxic dust and some gases"....as well as some low profile p100 filters to fit under the welding helmet....I wore it all day and it wasn't hard to get used to...and I could definately smell the metal in the air when I took it off...but it was infant fresh air once back on....my only question is that think these filters aren't enough...when welding (or having someone air arc near me) I could smell a hint of fumes...I checked the fit, it was fine.....so where do I get the tube extentions and what grade filter for this app...

Nick

when welding (or having someone air arc near me) I could smell a hint of fumes...I checked the fit, it was fine.....so where do I get the tube extentions and what grade filter for this app...

Two Qs.
1. How did you fit test?

2. What type of rod was used when you smelled it? That has an impact because of the different fluxes and what comes off during the welding process. Mostly acid gas but burnt metal as well.

On an off the cuff comment, one of the "super filters" that combines organics, acid gasses and dust may be in order. They tend to be a bit longer than the generic dual application. Sorta like the ones on this link. These are North brand but the filtration combination is available for other brands as well.

http://www.labsafety.com/store/product.asp?dept_id=29489&pf_id=60342&from_product_group=true&parent_id=39121


D.

in 3+ years of occasional welding with 110v lincoln with flux core wire and metal cutting using an angle grinder with cut-off discs and a 14" chop saw and very occasionally a plasma cutter. i also smoke- about a pack a day. i never noticed any problems except the black boogers after a days work. but that was when i was working in an open-air carport. my recent move into a 7.5x5.5 foot shop room recently has made things seem different. this past december, i got what i thought was either a cold or a sinus infection and figured it would pass, still welding and cutting during the ailment. well, it didn't go away. it stuck with me until just about a week ago and i'm still a little stuffy. after reading this and a couple other threads, i realized it was probably from the metal dust, the flux core fumes and smoke or both. i bought a mask for particulates, not sure exactly what kind or size, but it has helped immensely so far. what i'm wondering is, will a mask for sheetrock dust help with flux core fumes and smoke? even a little? i just can't afford to spend the big bucks right now. i don't weld a LOT, but i have been welding more than usual recently because along with trying to get a small fab business started, i have been building links and crossmembers for my SAS. is there a way to get around spending a lot of money to get something decent for the purpose of only about 4-6 days per month usage? thanks for any info.

Remember how menthol sigs do it, they scrape your lungs with fiberglass particles , and that is the same as metal fibers. I always hack after grinding something. The grinding wheels at work warn of cancer on them ( I am a machinist) because they scrape when they are inhailed. I learned to deal without maskes but I always hold my breath when crap is in the air, I will hold a record one day. Get a good mask please!

Originally posted by DVanVorous


Two Qs.
1. How did you fit test?

2. What type of rod was used when you smelled it? That has an impact because of the different fluxes and what comes off during the welding process. Mostly acid gas but burnt metal as well.

On an off the cuff comment, one of the "super filters" that combines organics, acid gasses and dust may be in order. They tend to be a bit longer than the generic dual application. Sorta like the ones on this link. These are North brand but the filtration combination is available for other brands as well.

http://www.labsafety.com/store/product.asp?dept_id=29489&pf_id=60342&from_product_group=true&parent_id=39121

D.
I am no expert on the fit/use of masks but I tightened up the straps to a comfortable tight and breathed normally and hard to feel for any leaks....I found none.

I am not sure the kind of gouging rod that was being used but I could smell the fumes slightly from my welding mig with 75% argon, 25% carbon dioxide.

another Q. how long are these defender filters usually good for?

Playing in the shop and fabbing is what keeps me sane, with 2 x wifes and full custody of 3 boys, it is my outlet. I have been working in a maintenance shop for 14 years, been fabbing full time at work for quite awhile. NEVER wore any resperitory protection, now I am paying for it, Pnemonia 3 years in a row, constant hack and cough, weak lungs, anything irritates them,especially arc welding fumes and grinding. I also love to do custom painting, can hardly stand to be around the stuff now without a full resperator. Wear a mask all the time now. They say that your lungs can heal if you stop the irritants (smoke etc) but it takes a long time...

I am no expert on the fit/use of masks but I tightened up the straps to a comfortable tight and breathed normally and hard to feel for any leaks....I found none.

Well, the true test is with a bannana oil cartridge. If you can smell that through a properly fitted mask then the straps are too lose, the filters are shot or the exhaust is leaking. Alternativly do a "fart" test. Basically one takes off the cartridges and inhales hard. If the mask is fitted properly it'll fart (whoopee cushion type sound). Putting the cartridges back on and covering the exhale vent and blowing hard should create the same sound if its fitted properly. If you just hear a whoosh with either test then the straps arent tight enough. Usually in the area where one hears the air leak the most. One should really do the fart test every time as its difficult to get a mask on the same every time. These tests are only good for 1/2 and full face respirators/scba masks.

Might add that facial hair doesnt seal well if at all, moustaches trimmed side burns aside.

D.

like alot of other responses,ive been feeling like shit for the past week,and its prolly largely due to the dust ive inhaled working on my latest project.

i dont work in this sort of environment daily,except when trying to finish various jeep-related projects. prollem is that since i dont do it daily,or on a real regular basis,i never really tink about the amt of dust ill inhale till its too late.

the way ive felt the last couple days,ill be sure to wear a mask from now on.

other thing i wanted to add is dont forget eye protection.i wear glasses,so i didnt used think about putting on a clear mask or goggles. a couple months ago,i got a piece of metal lodged in my eye. irratated the shit out of me that night and next day,then felt ok.guess my eye just got used to it being in there,but i thot it had worked itself out.

i happened to break my glasses a couple weeks later,and went to the eye dr for an exam to get a new pair. the metal was still there,and it had formed a rust ring around it. he had to numb my eye and scrape it out.wore a patch the rest of the day,and had to keep antibiotics on it and go back several times to make sure there were no ill affects.

since it wasnt irratating me,its hard telling how long it could have stayed there,and what it could have caused if i hadnt broken my glasses.

now i always wear a flip down face mask when cutting or grinding.

Originally posted by DVanVorous


Well, the true test is with a bannana oil cartridge. If you can smell that through a properly fitted mask then the straps are too lose, the filters are shot or the exhaust is leaking. Alternativly do a "fart" test. Basically one takes off the cartridges and inhales hard. If the mask is fitted properly it'll fart (whoopee cushion type sound). Putting the cartridges back on and covering the exhale vent and blowing hard should create the same sound if its fitted properly. If you just hear a whoosh with either test then the straps arent tight enough. Usually in the area where one hears the air leak the most. One should really do the fart test every time as its difficult to get a mask on the same every time. These tests are only good for 1/2 and full face respirators/scba masks.

Might add that facial hair doesnt seal well if at all, moustaches trimmed side burns aside.

D.

Cant say that I've ever heard of the "Fart" test. As described in the code of federal regulations a postive and negative pressure check should be performed each time a respirator is donned.

Negative check: Don and tighten straps, with filters installed, cover filter (or filters) and inhale. The mask should compress to your face and remain tight untill you exhale.

Positive check: Cover exhalation valve and exhale, the mask should inflate away from the face and if/when air excapes, it should be uniformly around the mask.

These checks are simple and quick to perform and become second nature when donning.

As for the facial hair, CFR 1910.134 appendix A.9 states "a test (fit test) shall not be conducted if there is any hair growth between the skin and the face piece sealing surface, such as stubble beard growth, beard, moustache or sideburns which cross the respirator sealing surface."

We perform quantative fit tests every 6 months and fit test to a fit factor 10x higher than that required by osha (Osha requires fit factor of 500, we go for 5000). We tested the hair growth theory and even a 5 oclock shadow can reduce your fit factor by 1000 or more.

I’m not one to weigh in much around here, but this topic hits home. Maybe a story about the after effects of not using respirators when they’re needed will help drive it home. I started welding on the farm and for my dad at about age 14 regularly. Back when no one used respirators. Went on to fab and weld as a full time job in construction, stainless, galvy, mild steel, we used it all. Forward to age 30 still welding and fabing regularly went to work one day and didn’t finish the day, I woke up in the hospital on a respirator. Got overloaded with some Galy fumes and the Doctor informing me that I had damage my lungs. Lung damage is cumulative.

All types of test were done and the great news was that at age 30 I had about 55 - 60 % of the lung use that a normal adult my age should have. For the following 3 years I went to a lung specialist every week, the next 3 years every month, the 3 years after that every other month, then down to every 6 months. After 10 years of inhaled steroids, to many types to name, and lung exercises. Volunteering for 2 different first run trials on new types of inhalants. My lungs are back to about 90% of original and this only because my body doesn’t develop a lot of scar tissue but heals well. I’m 42 now and can breath reasonably well, have a lot of volume but recovery after exertion is slow. Lungs heal slowly and if you develop scar tissue they loose elasticity. Use a respirator whenever you are fabing, no matter what your doing. They’re uncomfortable, a pain in the ass, but after going though the alternative for the last 12 years they’re not that bad.

Just a few life long side effects come with the healing, asthma, weight gain from the steroids, persistent cough, susceptibility to pneumonia regularly.
Sorry to drag the mood down but, if it helps one individual from going though what I have maybe it was worth it.

Originally posted by ToyFamily

I am no expert on the fit/use of masks but I tightened up the straps to a comfortable tight and breathed normally and hard to feel for any leaks....I found none.

I am not sure the kind of gouging rod that was being used but I could smell the fumes slightly from my welding mig with 75% argon, 25% carbon dioxide.

another Q. how long are these defender filters usually good for?



How long the cartridges last depends on the level of contaminants in the atmosphere. I usually run the Defenders cartridges when welding and they last 30-40 hours when backwelding 10" stub-ins in 36" pipe. The set in my garage lasts as long as 6 months depending on the amount of work I am doing.

Fit testing:

A safety supply company will have people trained to give you a fit test, usually for free if you are buying supplies. Home Depot is not the place for these purchases as they are not qualified to fit test nor recommend cartridges. You will also find that a dedicated safety supplier will usually also be cheaper than Home Despot. If you did not buy a North respirator I cannot think of another company which offers the backpack adapters for their respirators.

Cartridge life will also depend on the cartridge itself. Many contain an activated charcoal filter media that begins to absorb stuff from the atmosphere as soon as the cartridge is taken out of its plastic wrapper. The box the cartridges come in will have a note about life expectancy, which is always secondary to breakthrough (when you can smell something). At a minimum cartridges should be changed each shift, or in the case of a particulate filter, as soon as breathing becomes more difficult.

Take care of your respirators, dont leave them hanging by the harness in your dirty shop. When you take it off, clean it and stow it in a plastic bag or better yet some kind of tupperware box to protect it.

Great Thread, a few comments/ questions

First, PLEASE keep dumbing this down ! while i can talk geek crap all day, i dont know a damn thing about filters and osha rules. The extra commments, even if over simplified and not 100% accurate help alot...

KEEP showing the pictures!!

Also i see alot of talk abou the 9-5 ers, great.... the info has helped alot. As with the eye thread of before im taking note, now i just dont know what to buy.

Preferably somthing avaliable at HD or similer sutable for the 1-2 hours a night 3-4 night a week i do work in the garage... IE somthing im likly to grab last minute if i run out and not have to mail order...

I do what i think many do, i try to batch up my grinding and welding stuff so i can do cleaner work on the other days and not make such a mess... So id be willing to wear somthgn better during these time. Again whats a good unit for the ~5 hours a week i might be in the dust and welding fumes.. ?


Also PAINTING !

are these filters good for painting ? (basic rattle can or bruch on stuff)

Thanks !!!!!!

if you have any big fab operations in your area like shipyards, heavy equipment, structural steel etc. check your local newspaper and you will likely find ads from law firms wanting you to sign on to class action suits involving welding fumes-the latest cash cow in the legal community. i always mask up when fabbing and can't say the gear bothers me at all. also use evac blower when space is confined and stay away from painted and galvanized.

My brother just forwarded this to me Thanks, puke..

I just wanted to say I, 100% agree with every here!!
saprobe , you aint kiding, nothing worse than a 70 something doctor, with a shakey hand, with 3 nurses holding me down while he SCRAPED, the metal chip off my eye, with a small needle. And that was only day 1, on day 2 they have this cool little thing that looks like an electric tooth brush, only it buffs your eye, to make the rust ring go away, than a day with a pirate patch.

needles to say Im now MR Saftey in my garage, eye glasses, shields and MASKS. Reminds me Im probably due for a filter change. THANKS; GUYS, good thread..