let's here it.....what are the advantages/disadvantages with the both of them as far as strength, durability, part cost/installation, longetivity, and total cost of swap equiped with lockers and larger R&P's.
thanks dude's
-justin...aka Fuzzy :beer: :beer: :beer:

if ya like the birfields in your sami, you will love toy axles!!
(but luckily you probably won't be able to break the toy ones)

do a search. this has been debated several times. i personally like wagoneer d44's. the ujoints in the frontend are stronger, they are wider for better stability, and the rear diff is offset to match the sami's x-case. grind the lip off the bottom of the diff housing and i be clearance will be pretty close betweent he two. swap to wrangelr springs at the same time and the cost will be no more than doing a toy swap (that is if gears are replaced in both toy and d44's). save some $$$ and wled the rear and put an lunchbox locker in the front (i usually don't recomend drop in lockers but i doubt the light weight sami will hurt them). anyway like i sai do a search. lots of info. :smokin:

Toy advantages:

1. Kingpin front axles... no worries about blown balljoints if you drop off a ledge really hard or catch some air.

2. Rebuild the entire thing for $97 from Randy's R&P

3. If you run 4.10s (trail only rig, probably) you carry a spare, locked third member (welded diff from boneyard) in your toolbox.

4. Front & Rear 3rds are interchangeable. (Blow a rear R&P, you can drop a

5. More ground clearance

6. Lighter

7. Cheaper (Usually)

8. Brakes practically bolt in

That's all I've got for now. The axleshafts (D44 and Toy) are identical... so those are a wash. Really, the only reason NOT to use the Toy's are the Birfs... and it looks like Long's Birfield (beefed and heat & cryo'd) might actaully be standing up to hard use. I'm not convinced, but it seems like someone might have fiannly gotten them right.

Originally posted by Yota_San
Toy advantages:

1. Kingpin front axles... no worries about blown balljoints if you drop off a ledge really hard or catch some air.

2. Rebuild the entire thing for $97 from Randy's R&P

3. If you run 4.10s (trail only rig, probably) you carry a spare, locked third member (welded diff from boneyard) in your toolbox.

4. Front & Rear 3rds are interchangeable. (Blow a rear R&P, you can drop a

5. More ground clearance

6. Lighter

7. Cheaper (Usually)

8. Brakes practically bolt in

That's all I've got for now. The axleshafts (D44 and Toy) are identical... so those are a wash. Really, the only reason NOT to use the Toy's are the Birfs... and it looks like Long's Birfield (beefed and heat & cryo'd) might actaully be standing up to hard use. I'm not convinced, but it seems like someone might have fiannly gotten them right.


1. ???? :rolleyes:

2. i imagine about the same for a 44. the only thing that will cost more maybe would be the replacing the u-joints.

3. 4.10's??? with a sami motor????

4. blow a r&p with a sami motor???? i doubt it with either the d44 or the toy would blow a r&p with the sami motor.

5. i want a centerline to bottom of the pig measurement from both the toy and the 44. take a grinder to the bottom opf the lip of the 44. easy as that.

6.lighter...true but axles are unsprung weight wich isn't as much of a factor. plus i like the little bit of added unspring weight. it helps keep the wheels on the ground.

7. cheaper. not really. about the same. waggy axles can be had pretty cheap as can the toys. if the units are bought at equal price then the parts used to build are pretty much the same (i.e. gears, lockers, etc.

8. brakes practacly bolt in for the waggy axles too. i don't see where people come off with saying this all the time. if you havn't done it. or don't know then don't spread a bunch of bs. :D

as for the long's birfs well yes they may be a good option but we are talking stock here. if you wanna co that route lets slap a set of warn axle shafts in the d44 along weith a set of ctm's:flipoff2:

ok as i have stated on many occations on this bbs i am not a toy 8" hater. yes they are a great swap for sami's. the reason i speak up is for a difference of opinion. alot of the crap going around about swapping mastercylinders, problems with brakes, 44's cost more, etc. is all bs. people like to speak up alot of times when they havn't done it. ok yes if 4.10's are low enough for you then the toys will be definatly cheaper and the way to go but who want's 4.10's???

as i have said i helped build a sami with waggy axles and i have a buddy i wheel with who also runs the waggys. they flat out work. both run 97" wheelbase and wrangler springs. i know the toys work too but the width of the d44's, strength of the front, and the offset rear make the waggy d44's a better choice in my op. :D

Uhh....44s! That is if they are the same initial price, IE if a set of toy axles fall from the sky, go for them! Although I am not crazy about compound rear driveshaft angles. Any way, go 44s and never worry again!

When I end up swapping my axles out (in about a year or more) I will probably end up going with Toyota axles. This is simply because I know some guys running Toys that I can get them from cheaper than I could get D44's.

I think it all comes down to what you have access to. In some locations you can get D44's dirt cheap, in others they want a fortune for them. Same goes for the Toy stuff.

Typically more Toyota stuff comes available because the Toy guys are moving up to 60's (Mossberg is going to 70's front/rear :eek: ). When they move up in size, we just take their leftovers just like with everything else.

Originally posted by M.Martian
When I end up swapping my axles out (in about a year or more) I will probably end up going with Toyota axles. This is simply because I know some guys running Toys that I can get them from cheaper than I could get D44's.

I think it all comes down to what you have access to. In some locations you can get D44's dirt cheap, in others they want a fortune for them. Same goes for the Toy stuff.

Typically more Toyota stuff comes available because the Toy guys are moving up to 60's (Mossberg is going to 70's front/rear :eek: ). When they move up in size, we just take their leftovers just like with everything else.

i do agree. if you get either for super cheap then go with them. either is a huge improvement over stock.


also i wanted to say even though i list the width of waggy 44's as one of the reasons i would choose them, that same reason might be a reason for someone else to not choose them. if your zuk is a daily driver and you need to keep your tires in the fender wells because of your local laws then the 44's are not for you.

ok i have decided to give advantages/disadvantages of each as i see it. i will not include price because they are both about the same.

toy pro:

1. metric

2. you don't have to outboard your front springs

3. width (if you are trying to keep your tires under the fenders)

4. easier to set up r&p

5. lighter (if you think unsprung weight makes much difference)

6. if 4.10's are low enough, they come stock.

cons:

1. centered rear

2. narrower

3. birfields (d44 front u-joints are stronger)


d44pro's:

1. stronger front

2. wider

3. offset rear to match offset sami x-case

4. more unsprung weight to keep the wheels on the ground

cons:

1. heavier (some people like the unsprung weight some don't)

2. standard not metric

3. wider ( like i said good for trail bad for street.)

4. front springs have to outboarded ( if you are swapping in wranglers at the same time this isn't much of a con because spring hangers will need to be redone anyway ).

ok there you have it from my perspective. i didn't list steering, cost, drive shafts, brakes, etc. because these mods are equal between the two. if 4.10's in the pumpkins are low enough for your needs then by all means save yourself some $$$ and get the toys.

for those considering a swap first see what you can find cheap and then see which of the pro's and cons better suite the route you want to go with your rig. either way you are giving giving your sami the ability to be pushed harder without fear of breakage. did i miss anything? :D

Ok I get to play now too.

To start things off I want to address some points I have read in this post.

1. 5. i want a centerline to bottom of the pig measurement from both the toy and the 44. take a grinder to the bottom opf the lip of the 44. easy as that. If your gonna get to take the grinder to the d-44 then take the torch to the toy axle. The toy axle can be cut down to gain an aditional 3/4" wich puts the toy axle at around 4" from centerline to the bottom of the diff. That's getting to sammy axle clearence. But yes it does require allot more work then grinding off the 1/2" lip on the bottom of the d-44.

2. all this talk about the birfield vs. u-joints. I still wanna see where a stock 5-297x is that much stonger then a stock birf. From what I have seen they are stonger when turned but when straight the birfield is actually stronger. I won't argue tho that ctm alloy u-joints are stonger, in fact the new 5-760x is probably stonger then a birf. AND alloy u-joints are cheaper then the heat treated birfields.

3. One thing people do forget about the toy axle is you loose turning radius. Dana axles all have a tighter angle on their knuckles. This could be good or bad, but I don't like it.

With all that said I think my personal opinion would be to get a d-44 front axle and a fj-40 land cruiser rear axle. The land cruiser rear axle is wider (55"-56") and off set. Plus you get all the advantages of a front d-44.

Originally posted by toymaniac

1. If your gonna get to take the grinder to the d-44 then take the torch to the toy axle. The toy axle can be cut down to gain an aditional 3/4" wich puts the toy axle at around 4" from centerline to the bottom of the diff. That's getting to sammy axle clearence. But yes it does require allot more work then grinding off the 1/2" lip on the bottom of the d-44.

i was just trying to say forget the ground clearance issue. there isn't one. yes you can get the ol' torch out for the toy but if you are going that far then you can do the same to a 44. infact go look on the jeep board and look there is a post on the first page with pic's of this.

as for strenght it is true the d44 joint is only margionally stronger than the toy b/field but it IS stronger. there has been lots of talk about this on the toy board. why would alot of the toy guys choose to put a d44 in the front of thier truck if it wasn't? saw a write up a while back of some strength tests and it gave the amount of torque required to break a toy b/field and a d44 joint but i can't rememebr the actual #'s. the d44's did come out on top. as you have stated the new 5-760 joint would increase the difference between the two. they are about the same price as the 297's too where as the ctm's are $$$$.


i'd still go waggy front and rear instead of your sugguested setup do to the fact they can be had out of the same vehicle plus they are alot easier to find. also there are gearing issues when going low between the two. if they are like the mini toy 8's then the lowest matching ratio between the toy and the d44 is 4.88's.

Originally posted by high5
ok i have decided to give advantages/disadvantages of each as i see it. i will not include price because they are both about the same.

breakage. did i miss anything? :D

What about steering? The Toy stuff has flattop knuckles so hy-steer steering arms are bolt on. Can you do the same with the D44's? Also do you mind me using your list of pro's and cons on my axles swap write up?

Originally posted by high5
....i didn't list ...drive shafts, brakes, etc. because these mods are equal between the two.

I can add some factual input here:

The Toyota driveshafts are MUCH easier to adapt to the Samurai t-case flanges than the Dana-type driveshafts. Yeah, you gotta shorten both types, but all you have to do to bolt the 'yota flange on is to machine 1/32" from the inside of the flange lip, turn it 45 degrees & drill 4 new holes for bolts. That's it. BTW, I have been running a Stock Samurai front driveshaft in my Toy-axled rig for almost two years now. So this part is Not a 'wash".

Brakes Literally bolt in with the existing lines for the Toyota on the front, and if you have the single rear line (88.5 & newer) it bolts in the rear too. Also the emergency brake systems are very similar so it's easy to adapt & use. I know the Dana systems use big cables & would be much harder to adapt.

I had access to a set of Toy axles - this was the determining factor for me since by Good Buddy Chris needed to "get them out of his yard" :D But they have proven to be Excellent for My needs.

Originally posted by high5
i was just trying to say forget the ground clearance issue. there isn't one. yes you can get the ol' torch out for the toy but if you are going that far then you can do the same to a 44. infact go look on the jeep board and look there is a post on the first page with pic's of this.

as for strenght it is true the d44 joint is only margionally stronger than the toy b/field but it IS stronger. there has been lots of talk about this on the toy board. why would alot of the toy guys choose to put a d44 in the front of thier truck if it wasn't? saw a write up a while back of some strength tests and it gave the amount of torque required to break a toy b/field and a d44 joint but i can't rememebr the actual #'s. the d44's did come out on top. as you have stated the new 5-760 joint would increase the difference between the two. they are about the same price as the 297's too where as the ctm's are $$$$.


1. Yes you are right....the clearence is a non issue because you can get botht the d-44 and toy axles to within 1/2" of eachother.

2. As far as strength....I say a breaking strenght report as well....done by marlin (if that makes a difference to you). The 297's were only stronger then stock birfs when at an angle. The birfs were stronger when strait. This doesn't help much in rockcrawling seeing as you turn the wheel soo much. But I think the reason so many toy guys are swapping in d-44's is a combination of being a whole lot eisier install in toys,and added steering angle.

I run Toy, IMHO the strength isn't an issue for either one. There both more than strong for a sammy. The compound angle for the rear is not an issue, I use to drive mine everyday (until I broke the windshield) with out any problems. However I the only reason I would run 44's over toys would be if you wanted the width. :)

Originally posted by 0ILBURNER


I can add some factual input here:

The Toyota driveshafts are MUCH easier to adapt to the Samurai t-case flanges than the Dana-type driveshafts. Yeah, you gotta shorten both types, but all you have to do to bolt the 'yota flange on is to machine 1/32" from the inside of the flange lip, turn it 45 degrees & drill 4 new holes for bolts. That's it. BTW, I have been running a Stock Samurai front driveshaft in my Toy-axled rig for almost two years now. So this part is Not a 'wash".

Brakes Literally bolt in with the existing lines for the Toyota on the front, and if you have the single rear line (88.5 & newer) it bolts in the rear too. Also the emergency brake systems are very similar so it's easy to adapt & use. I know the Dana systems use big cables & would be much harder to adapt.

I had access to a set of Toy axles - this was the determining factor for me since by Good Buddy Chris needed to "get them out of his yard" :D But they have proven to be Excellent for My needs.

just to clear up a few things:

drive shafts are not hard when converting the d44. all we did was use the jeep style shaft and keep the jeep slip yoke end (more travel that the stock sami stuff) and then cut the tube to length and add the sami joint to the other end. easy as that. the tube diameters can be found that are the same. so how is the toy easier? so wash i say:flipoff2: the benifit to running the toy shafts would be the joint used at the x-case end would be stronger. if you wanted with the waggy stuff you could either use a toy joint on the x-case end or mike schaffer (arca competitor) builds a setup that allows you to run a flanged end that works with the 1310 (jeep) joint on the sami x-case. the guys i know run them as a week link. of the both of them though i have only seen one break and i happened to be the one that did it.

brakes , with the exception of the emergency brake, bolt in with the waggy's too. i have said this over and over. i have done it!!!! i know!!!!! about the emergency brakes you may be correct. they may be harder but i wouldn't run them anyway. i like to convert to rear discs. :D

fatkid is correct in that the centered diff on the toy's isn't that big of a deal. the people i know with centered diffs in sami's have had broblems with vibration but a swap to a cv joint in the rear shaft cured that. just get hte cv and it works. i do however stil like the offset rear. not only to avoid compund angles on the shaft but having both pig on the same side can be really benifical when playing in the rocks.

ok AGAIN i am not here bashing toy axles in samurai's. i just see alot of false info floating around that i like to clear up .........ok you are right i think they are a better swap:flipoff2:

that settles it high5 hates Toy stuff...:flipoff2:

Originally posted by fatkid
that settles it high5 hates Toy stuff...:flipoff2:

yeah but i hear he is good in bed.:D

:bender:

hey lets just keep the goat thing between you and me:flipoff2:

You me and the goat that is.:flipoff2:

a goat sandwich comes to mind....mmmmm goat!

hey dude's, this is some real kick a$$ info, i won't be doin the swap till next year anyway... im just tryin to get some early input...keep the suggestions comin...i appreciate them very much.

hey Fatkid and high5, tell :bender: and :cow: they were good last night with the girlie and i :flipoff2:

-justin aka Fuzzy

Originally posted by izooki13
hey dude's, this is some real kick a$$ info, i won't be doin the swap till next year anyway... im just tryin to get some early input...keep the suggestions comin...i appreciate them very much.

hey Fatkid and high5, tell :bender: and :cow: they were good last night with the girlie and i :flipoff2:

-justin aka Fuzzy

don't tell me :bender: was ho'n around on me again!!!!! i'm gonna have to go home and kick her in her :bender: a$$ :rasta:

Originally posted by high5


just to clear up a few things:

drive shafts are not hard when converting the d44. all we did was use the jeep style shaft and keep the jeep slip yoke end (more travel that the stock sami stuff) and then cut the tube to length and add the sami joint to the other end. easy as that. the tube diameters can be found that are the same. so how is the toy easier? so wash i say:flipoff2: the benifit to running the toy shafts would be the joint used at the x-case end would be stronger. if you wanted with the waggy stuff you could either use a toy joint on the x-case end or mike schaffer (arca competitor) builds a setup that allows you to run a flanged end that works with the 1310 (jeep) joint on the sami x-case. the guys i know run them as a week link. of the both of them though i have only seen one break and i happened to be the one that did it.




Oh that sounds MUCH easier - you ought to read what you type :rolleyes:

Originally posted by toymaniac

.... Yes you are right....the clearence is a non issue because you can get both the d-44 and toy axles to within 1/2" of each other.




A 1/2" is half an inch more clearance - every bit makes a difference. You'd have to go with 1" taller tires to re-coup this.

I believe we are confusing the issues of which axles are "BETTER" vs. which axles are "EASIER" to install.
I am not saying that Toyota axles are better than using Dana 44 axles under a Samurai, but you pro- Dana guys are calling a Lot of things "A Wash" when they are signifigant points. The FACT of the matter is that Toyota axles are Easier to install than Dana 44 axles - this is not debatable.
FRONT AXLE

Toyota Front axle literally bolts in - you will have to move perches on the Dana. Toy is easier.

Apparently the brake lines are the same for either axle. Tie.

They have similiar steering issues to work out. Tie.

You can literally run a Stock Samurai front driveshaft up front or use a Toyota shaft per my earlier post (simple machine cut & shorten shaft). Smart guy would pick up the Toy driveshafts when he bought the axles.
You will have to create a drive shaft for the Dana, rounding up a Jeep driveshaft. Toy is easier.

Toyota axles come with 4.10:1 gears - with a sumo t-case you'd have about 94:1 crawl ratio - good enough to run 35's. With the Dana's you would probably have 3.73's if you're lucky or buy a set with aftermarket gears already in them which would help a lot.
You pull the pumpkin on the Toy & drop in a Lock Right & you're all set. Toy is easier.

The Toyota front axle is clearly easier to set up in a Samurai.

REAR AXLE
Gotta move perches on either Dana or Toy. Tie.

Brake lines work for either, but if you want e-brake, Toy wins.

Drive shaft is similar to the front situation. VERY Debateable for strength.
Lockers are a wash but gears are easier for Toy if you need lower than 4.1. Odds are you will have to change the Dana gears. Toy is easier.


Cost is always debatable.
Strength falls to the Dana of course for overall durability due to the front axles.

First off, let me mention Electric Lockers. Where do you find one for a Dana axle again? :confused:

You can find one for a Toy for around $500-700 (6-ish seems normal) from a boneyard if you look hard enough. The axlehousing will need a stud added and a little grinding to drop it in, but it fits with no compressors and such to shell out extra money on.

Also, I plan on never having to pay have a R&P set up. Ever. I'm planning on eventually going to an all-toyota drivetrain under a lightweight sammy tub and a bit of tubing... someday.

My plan for then is this:
Run 4.10 ratios, with 38" tires. How? Drive in 2.28:1 low from the trail back to the trailer.

See, with the dua- case toy setup I'll be running, you can shift the front case (nothing but a HI-N-LO stick) into low range without engaging 4WD for street use. So I can get away with 4.10s... especailly considering that my Toy drivetrain will give me 173:1, even with 4.10s. (3.95 x 2.28 x 4.7 x 4.10)

So you can run 4.10s in a Sammy. Just not on the highway.

If you can run 44" tires on a Toy with the 4-popper, 0" of lift, and 4.10s, I think you can work 35+ tires on a Sammy if you really want to:
<img src="http://www.rockstomper.com/images/products/custom/shopjunk/hybrid/disk4/MVC-002S.JPG">

Scott from Rockstomper (white Toy in this year's TTC) built this behemoth. Here's the <a href="http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21329" target="new">post</a>.

don't tell me was ho'n around on me again!!!!! i'm gonna have to go home and kick her in her a$$

i wouldn't kick :bender: in the a$$ now, it's probably a little soar. bad :bender:, go to Fatkid's room.

-Fuzzy

Hey Izook13 were rippin into a toy the weekend of the 12th
pullin axles and resetin up gears if you want to come down

Originally posted by 0ILBURNER



Oh that sounds MUCH easier - you ought to read what you type :rolleyes:

i wrote it and it says what i ment it to say. yes if you want to keep the stock front d-shaft it would be easierwith the toys. you need to read my post and see how we did it again. if you have to shorten the toy shaft how is it any harder than building what we did? i'm not seeing what you are saying.

Brian,

Here is what I was trying to say with regards to the driveshafts:

Dana -
You have to round up two spicer driveshafts and make sure they will work with the axles you got. Many opportunities for error here.

To shorten the driveshaft(s) and make them work with the Samurai driveshaft ends, you'll have to find the correct tubing to 'adapt' one tubing size to another. More room for error & running around.

After you get that figured out, you will have at least two different u-joints to keep up with on each end - the critical one being the WEAK Samurai joint on back of the t-case :eek:

Toyota -
You can pick up Any Toyota driveshafts & they will work.

If you have the large Samurai flanges, you can use a Stock Samurai shaft up front w/ no machining & re-drill the 4 holes.

If you want Toy u-joints all around, you only need a tad machined off the Sam flange & re-drill the 4 bolt holes, then deal with shortening the driveshaft, but no tubing to adapt.

On the rear, do the same machine trick, shorten the shaft, bolt in.


The driveshaft issue is a lot less work to got with Toyota stuff. I don't mean to say it's "better" or that a savvy fabricator couldn't make spicer driveshafts work - Only that the Toyota parts are Easier to make work on a Samurai.

I made two SS flange adapters to go on the tcase, then called AZ driveline and they sent me two 1310 equipped cv shafts w/ 6 " slip....Wasn't too tough...

Originally posted by Gozuki
I made two SS flange adapters to go on the tcase, then called AZ driveline and they sent me two 1310 equipped cv shafts w/ 6 " slip....Wasn't too tough...

Access to the material, a lathe, and Ca$h to order what you want does make things easier, doesn't it?

Would've been even easier to just get someone else to do it for you too:flipoff2: :D

hey RockRat, ill let you know in a couple of days...i have tickets to the monster truck rally at the U.S. Cellular Arena, but they were cheap, so if i could sell them, ill come strait down there. can my buddy come with? he's got more money for gas and he's pretty good with wrenchin. :smokin:

Fuzzy :beer: :beer: :beer:

Yah no problem I'm hopen the truck will get here a couple days early so I can get the majority ripped apart ahead of time But
when you got wife and Kids your hole day doesnt always mean
there gonna let you have it :smokin:

i have just realized that the wagoneer axle swap sucks! please don't do it!!! go with the yota stuff cause it's better :rolleyes: :flipoff2:

about time you came around high5. now someone end this thread. its seems to be dying a slow painful death. :flipoff2:

Never! I defend to the death the 44 swap! But realistically, as much as I love em, toy isn't too bad, birfs and all...

:bender: ...:beer: ...:question:

Originally posted by poppycock
about time you came around high5. now someone end this thread. its seems to be dying a slow painful death. :flipoff2:

yeah poopy......i mean poppy :flipoff2: that was the reason for my last post. i don't give a rats arse if you got toys or waggys as long as you use it and abuse it. lets end this thread and start a new one. how about which is better samurai or honda crv? :rasta:

I plan on helping my grandfather do this toyota axle swap and want to know if you guys have any pics of redriling the sammi flanges to accept the yota driveshafts?

Hi steer ordered from all pro or what have you guys made?

http://www.izook.com/tech/toyotadriveshaft_installation.htm

Sorry, one more question. I have always been unhappy with the turning radius of my Sam. I think my Cherokee can turn a tighter circle. Can the Toy turn as sharp as a Dana? And survive? I am going to have a centered t-case eventually. So no issue there. I also have wayyyyy more torque off idle than most with my diesel, so I worry a bit about blowing them up, even if I stay with stock toyota low range. Since I don't do rocks, should I be worried at all? I do have the wheels at full lock often as I weave around on quadrunner trails. Thanks guys.

Read the posts careFULLY grasshopper...:flipoff2:


3. One thing people do forget about the toy axle is you loose turning radius. Dana axles all have a tighter angle on their knuckles. This could be good or bad, but I don't like it.

On yota axles dont forget the FJ80. I'm running an FJ80 hi pinion front with an elocker. The birfs are HUGE. they are more $$$ though

I didnt see anything about carriers. I dont think you wanna run a sami with a 3.55 or 3.73. I know at one point you need a different carrier, after 4.56 maybe ? So if you wanna run a 5.38, plan on getting another carrier. Surprised no one commented on this yet.

thats because a new carrier is like $30 new.

New in the for sale section wagoneer 44's front and rear 5.89's and spools. ha, yea right. how many times did I see birfields being changed on the con this weekend? (kind of a cheap shot because of the rubithon but it's still true)

oilburner make ing two cuts thru a drive shaft or driling four holes plus maching the inside of the shaft out
i have made plenty of my own shafts an cutting and welding can be done in a garage not a machine shop and done for the price of welding wire and chop saw blades

Glad to see that someone uses archived threads.

It doesnt matter which is easyer, this post started asking which was better, i have toy diffs under my samurai and will soon be going over to d44's. It will be lots of work, in my opinion that is half the fun with this. I loved the toy diffs and want to go bigger and better, it may be heavyer but wider. ya win some you lose some. thanks

Originally posted by superzuk
It doesnt matter which is easyer, this post started asking which was better, i have toy diffs under my samurai and will soon be going over to d44's. It will be lots of work, in my opinion that is half the fun with this. I loved the toy diffs and want to go bigger and better, it may be heavyer but wider. ya win some you lose some. thanks

Well if your pulling the toys and going D44 I would call that a lateral move not an upgrade,

well i will be makin the swap to 44s hear real soon,

-one question are square drive shafts hard to fabricate from sami to 44:flipoff2: :rolleyes:

Wider yes, stronger, doubt it. I run Toy, Brian runs D44 and has less HP. His broken parts list is much longer than mine. So far he's grenaded a u-joint and two front shafts. I have cracked a stock birf and some knuckle studs. If you really want stronger, go 60 and be done with it.

since this is being rehashed again i have a question . all i've heard about is the waggy 44 axles being used what about cj axles ? ive done the toy swap in my 87 and friggin love it but im throwing another 87 together and i got a cj 30 frt & a 44 rear other than width what are the cons to this? a buddy of mine, terry wilcox did this with early cj parts and it works well & looks pretty straightforward :confused:

My opinion, after runing with Jeeps in my club and seeing them snap and destroy the 30 and 35 stuff I would never waist my time with them. I think the 2 best choices out there are still toy or 44 and I prefer the Toy.

Originally posted by twisted one
since this is being rehashed again i have a question . all i've heard about is the waggy 44 axles being used what about cj axles ? ive done the toy swap in my 87 and friggin love it but im throwing another 87 together and i got a cj 30 frt & a 44 rear other than width what are the cons to this? a buddy of mine, terry wilcox did this with early cj parts and it works well & looks pretty straightforward :confused:

Don´t bother, you´ll just be doing the same job twice, once to put in the 30 and another time to do the 44. Believe me, I know what I´m saying.........:(

To comment on the Spicer 5-297x and 5-760x D44 U-joints I have done some research on them recently as I was replacing my front shaft's on my Jeep from CV joints to U-joints and figuring out which U-joint to go with. This is directly from Dana regarding the 2 U-joints:

The new u-joint (5-790X)
uses a cross that is cold formed. The older cross (5-297X) uses a hot
forged cross. I don't have a specific number to show exactly how much
stronger the cold formed cross is over the hot forged. I can tell you the
fatigue test results for the cold formed cross are much higher than those
of the hot forged. Fatigue and static torque results go hand-in-hand. The
static torque results are very similar for the two crosses. This is
because the fixturing used to hold the crosses is not as strong as the
cross itself, and as a result we end up breaking fixturing before we ever
break the crosses.

and from another Dana representative:

They are in fact very similar in material strength specified by BHN
hardness. Typically cast is 235-293 BHN and forging is 229-269 BHN. So
minimum strength would be very similar.


And here's the kicker.. the 760x U-joints.. even that *little* bit of extra strengh is usually enough to tear your axle's apart. I've heard many reports of people doing the upgrade to these or CTM's without upgrading the shafts and it stretches the yoke ears which leaves you stranded and instead of doing a $20 fix and 10 minutes in replacing a U-joint, you have to replace the shaft. IMO the 297 acts as a fuse and is the smartest U-joint to use. Just goes to show you the strength of the stock shaft..

Here's a couple of thoughts on the Toy vs Dana front axle debate;
for someone willing to spend the money the Dana can be built
stronger.A set of Warn or Superior's pemium shafts combined
with a 760 or CTM U-joint is going to be stronger than any of the
Re-Heat Treated Fields.The 8.5" ring gear in the Dana is going to
be stronger than the 8" ring gear in the Toy.You can use integral
lockout hubs on the Dana,your stuck with bolt on hubs with the
Toy.
Also there's several options on the Dana thru parts swapping
for type of knuckle (standard or flat top) and wheel hub/caliper
type (Ford,Chevy,Scout).
A person upgrading from Samurai to Toy axles is going to have
to get different wheels for the 6 bolt lug pattern.With a Dana
you can keep the 5 on 5.5 pattern.
One thing I don't like about Dana's is the axle tubes always pack
with mud and water which rusts the shaft and eventually eats
the inner seal.

Originally posted by jdetar


...instead of doing a $20 fix and 10 minutes in replacing a U-joint, you have to replace the shaft. IMO the 297 acts as a fuse and is the smartest U-joint to use...
Not to dissagree with a most of what you said, which makes sense, but I will make a comment on the above quote.

From my personal experience the "U joint as a fuse" idea is not a very reliable solution. Everytime (3 times so far) when I granaded a U-joint both of my axle shafts (ears to be specific) had suffered a terminal demage. In all 3 cases I speculated that if the U-joint didn't fail, no other failure would have occured.
In other words, the U joint was not the fuse: it was the reason for my axle shaft losses.

In my opinion toy axles are the overall better axle. But I am bias, because I need to keep my tires under my fenders, so I pretty much am forced to go with toy.

Originally posted by MudKick

Not to dissagree with a most of what you said, which makes sense, but I will make a comment on the above quote.

From my personal experience the "U joint as a fuse" idea is not a very reliable solution. Everytime (3 times so far) when I granaded a U-joint both of my axle shafts (ears to be specific) had suffered a terminal demage. In all 3 cases I speculated that if the U-joint didn't fail, no other failure would have occured.
In other words, the U joint was not the fuse: it was the reason for my axle shaft losses.

That happens in stronger u-joints.. probably not running the 297s then, OR, you're still trying to drive after you broke the U-joint. If you stop immediately after breaking a 297x in most cases I've seen you'll be OK. 760s usually break the ears with them. This is of course only what I've seen.. which has been several.

True, I was running 297's.... untill now:D
But still, stopping right after the U joint fails in time to save the ears (at least for me) is sometimes nearly impossible. I did stop as soon as I realised that there was brakege but by that time the ears were gone.
Maybe it's just my right foot. I dunna.:confused:

yeah who knows.. hard to say for sure. every situation is different! i have 297s in now and have the 760s as spare's as I'm hoping I can continue the fuse idea. I to have a heavy right foot so I may be in the same situation as you. It seems in the times that we've seen the 297s break there was someone spotting at the time and watched it go so he was able to tell the driver immediately. I have a habit of breaking joints in mud though where you don't really hear or see anything good anyways so it's always to late. ahah

There is a much easier solution to the driveshafts for the waggys. I used waggy axles on my zuk and for driveshafts you can use front driveshafts out of a yj wrangler, it has 1310's just like the waggys. You can get a bolt on yolk from drivetrain direct for about $40 bucks that is just like a sammy yolk but with the 1310 ears. Cheap and in my opinion stronger than using an adapter, plus front wrangled drive shafts should be very easy to find, and will be plenty long so thay can be cut down easly. Plus the joints are about $7 a peice and all four will be the same. as far as brakes the 4.5 mm lines are close enough to the 3/16 lines to just simmply reflare the hard lines to use waggy front brakes and stock drums or chevy rears. Also the waggy's are an undesirable swap for any other 4x4 so they will be cheaper. As far as width goes I run 38-12.50 tsls on 8 inch rims with factory offset and I am 2 inches narrower than my buddy who runs yota's w/ factory ofset 10' wheels w/ 12.50's also. I also like the fact that the front axle is 2" widder than the rear, I dunno I guess it tracks in different ruts. This biggest plus with the dana as compared to the yotas has got to be turning radius. Plus every one knowes that a 44 can be built stronger with aftermarket parts than a yota. Cromoly shafts and CTM's will be much stronger strait or turned than a heat treated burf, but I have seen a set of longfeilds stand up to some serious abuse with 39-18.50 boggers and a 1.6 with dual casses and a 4to1.
I guess they have the same amount of work to do both swaps but strength wise the are going to be the same under a zuke anyway because of the weight of the vehicle. To me it boils down to 1. ofset rear 2. turning radius 3. no birfs 4. because thats what I want to use and thats what I did and after all if it makes the owner happy than I don't realy see why it should matter.

I just saw this thread and thought I would throw an opinion from my experience at it.
I recently sold my 83 Toy that had a SB FI 350 and Dana 44's. When I started the build I thought the stock axles would work okay for runiing 36's. I soon found out that was not the case. After installing 5.29 gears a spool in the rear and a lock right in the front it was time to go wheeling! At this time it still had a 4 cyl.
Half way through the day there goes a birfield. On trail fix and we were on our way.
Second time out......... there goes another one!
Before I became a hinderance to my fellow wheelers it was time to do something.
Dana 44's out of a 77 J10 fell in my lap. After they were locked and geared with crossover on the front I had way tighter steering and alot more confidence. I wheeled regularly for a year without one problem.
Then came small block.......even with a power chip they held up considerably well. I wheeled for about four months before losing a u-joint on one axle and wiping out both the inner and outer and the spindle. After that I didn't have a problem for 6 months before it was sold.
My brother runs a toy 22R , 44 locked in the front and 9" ARBed rear in his sammy and loves every minute of it. His rig is a DD also. After he put the 44 in he didn't touch it for three years beside changing the oil! Never had a problem, never broke! AWESOME!
On the other hand I sold my toy diffs to a buddy w/ a LWB Sammy and he basically hasn't spoke to me since! He absolutely hates them and has had nothing but trouble. Clearance, drivelines, vibrations, turning, you name it.

Moral of the story: In my opinion if you want something you will never have to worry about..........go 44!

after running the toy axles I miss my danas. They are under my other sammy which will be getting scrapped so I can build a full on rock buggy. The danas are going under the sammy with toy axles.

I miss the 5.89's, sexy dana look, sharper turning radius, wider width, better brakes, and thicker axle tubes. After reading Azrockcrawlers write up about retubing the Toys because of the weak front housing, and having to redo the steering arm studs I want to go to my danas. The heavier axle and lower center of gravity is a nice touch as well.

The toys are nice for an easy bolt on swap. I used stock shafts redrilled with no vibes. They are much easier to swap in than a dana etc.

sounds like you had a set of bad axles. i've been beating my yota axles up and luv em. i'm on 36's and 5.29's. i figure when i do break a feild i'll get some pro feilds or long feilds with some cromo inners and be done with it.


i used to be a non beleiver but i would rather have these anyday after seeing how well they hold up.

after running the toy axles I miss my danas. They are under my other sammy which will be getting scrapped so I can build a full on rock buggy. The danas are going under the sammy with toy axles.

I miss the 5.89's, sexy dana look, sharper turning radius, wider width, better brakes, and thicker axle tubes. After reading Azrockcrawlers write up about retubing the Toys because of the weak front housing, and having to redo the steering arm studs I want to go to my danas. The heavier axle and lower center of gravity is a nice touch as well.

The toys are nice for an easy bolt on swap. I used stock shafts redrilled with no vibes. They are much easier to swap in than a dana etc.

I know people who pop D44 stuff left and right with a 1.3 and 6:1's. Even the heavier rigs pop 60 components down here. I seriously doubt you guys are wheeling the same kind of stuff we do if your axles go years without mainteneance (go check out the Hellraiser thread in General 4x4). FWIW I am pretty sure I bent my axle housing hitting a whoop at 65mph, the front end bottomed out hard enough to rattle my fillings :eek: I don't drive fast anymore, I broke/bent more stuff fireroading than all my years of crawling combined.

After offroading my built '79 Chevy (44's front - 14-bolt rear) which was used as the chase & rescue vehicle and finally called it quites on the Sami axles I did the swapped on my rig.
BTW, the rear 14-bolt is from a dually --- narrower

http://pics.montypics.com/Crab_Bait/2003-12-31/1072907212_A_ama_Towing_rig.jpg


More on 44 buildups on Zuki's (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120802&page=2&pp=25)

I'll add my 2 cents.. I have about 200 hp and 200 ft lbs motor feeding through dual toy t-cases into cheap set of 5.29s with EZ lockers front and rear in my Toy axles. I have been rather happy with them but have I have busted a few parts already.

I killed both stock birfs. Blew one to small chunks, and cracked the other. I suggest you pop in some Super Birfs if you are going to play hard as it will only be time until you kill the stockers. When I blew the one apart it did a fair amount of damage to other items like the inner knuckle, axle seal and inner axle splines. No problems in the front since I jumped to the Profields.

I have done some damage to the rear diff this last trip. I'm not sure of the cause, but the cross pin in the diff sheared on one side and cracked on the other. This damaged the EZ locker, and I discovered that the Genuine gears 5.29s were showing cracks on every tooth of the pinion. The Genuines are known to be a weak gear, and this really has nothing to do with the Toy axle.

I'm told that the cross pin shear is a very strange thing to bust. But then again I probably should not be running an EZ locker in the rear. I was cheap at the time. Will be dropping in the ARBs this time around...

I still like my toys. Especially when they are shaved. Ground clearance is great.

-Wayne

... I have done some damage to the rear diff this last trip. I'm not sure of the cause... -Wayne It's because you drive like me :D

I'll list all the axle parts I broke during EJS.












































Oh ya an axle joint, I almost forgot.


BTW Wayne, I thought you were jealous of the turning radius :flipoff2:

I think the axle thing is all in what an individual feels comfortable with. I like my D44's and I am glad I went with them. I know guys that like their Yotas. It's your choice people. Each has their pros and cons. The 44's are heavy, especially with a set of 36's. Just make sure your engine can handle the extra weight.

I'm told that the cross pin shear is a very strange thing to bust. But then again I probably should not be running an EZ locker in the rear. I was cheap at the time. Will be dropping in the ARBs this time around...


My Toyota Front ARB had a sheared crosspin in it when I bought it, so I'd say it's not THAT uncommon.

I say, buy and run what ever you want.

My toy axle parts that broke at the hammers last weekend: None. Heck, I even three wheeled it, and didn't even think about breakage..

Yeah, the Danas kick some ass when it comes to turning!

I think the ideal axle is a hybrid of Toyota center with Dana outers..

But they are both good axles.

-Wayne

One thing to consider is on the "easier" argument is that hi-steer for Toy is easier. This isnt a big deal necessarily, if you have machine shop access, but if you dont, you may have a hard time getting D44 flattops drilled. I have a fixture and CNC program to run them on an old shitty Cincinati Milicron Horizontal mill at work, so it doesnt bother me, but it may be an issue for some people. Just another thing to consider.