Since the auction is coming up fast (~60 days), I think we need to know how much money could be raised in that time. This will ensure the effort will not fail because of lack of funds.
Please no BS, the figure discussed has been $50 so we will go with that. How many would you buy in the next 40 days?

Great poll McStiff,

Bu first we need to let everyone know the situation on this matter...

You all remeber the land that was sold a few months back (Lower Helldorado) leaving the trail closed

If you don't remember... see here:
http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/landuse_helldorado.html

Well, the situtaion may happen again... The State Trust Lands is prepared to autcion off 2 more parcels of land in the exact same area, which "may" contain parts of the Strike Ravine and Upper Helldorado trails. We are working with local clubs to determine if those trails are/are not affected by the land sale.

Everyone vote, and stay tuned for the latest info... for up to date info...

Check here:
http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/landuse_moab_auction.html

Thanks for the specifics Kurt.
Please keep everyone on PBB updated with your (and other RME members) progress, so that we do not defeat ourselves with lack of organization.

Originally posted by Mcstiff
...Please keep everyone on PBB updated with your (and other RME members) progress, ...

For sure... as soon as I get more info, I will post it here as well as my website...

If anyone has compelling info regarding the land purchase, etc... please email me...
landuse@cruiseroutfitters.com

Thanks!

IMHO it would not be a safe investment for one person to buy a bunch of shares as an investment deal. There's too many things to go wrong. It would be cool if many many people would buy just one share. Heck I'd do it and I'm on the east coast.

I'm in.

If this isn't a worthwhile "land action fund" I don't know what is.

Fighting land closures is important, but BUYING it eliminates the need to the fight the closure.

Sorta like complaining your land lord doesn't like your bashed up trail rig in the driveway.. BUY A HOUSE.. now you're the prick landlord. :D

I am in

I be down for 4-5 shares.

(I tried to vote, but the damn page kept timing out on me!)

Come on people!! This is you're chance to BUY a piece of Upper Helldorado!!! If we don't act, we're going to loose this trail, just like we lost Lower Helldorado!

Originally posted by papee
IMHO it would not be a safe investment for one person to buy a bunch of shares as an investment deal. There's too many things to go wrong. It would be cool if many many people would buy just one share. Heck I'd do it and I'm on the east coast.

I think that the bylaws of the coop would have to include somthing reguarding the resale of the land.
I do not think that anybody should look to profit from this unless it is by knowing that they saved a great trail.

I've never run helldorado but would like to one day. I'm in.
I would like to be a member of the landed gentry, way cool.

troy

Originally posted by Mcstiff


I think that the bylaws of the coop would have to include somthing reguarding the resale of the land.
I do not think that anybody should look to profit from this unless it is by knowing that they saved a great trail.

That's what I had in mind, and where those bylaws come into play.

You could even make a stipulation that no single person may own more than X (or x%) of shares. This would prevent a hostile take-over.

Limit everyone to no more than 10 shares of the Coop?

You'd need an annual share holder meeting (in this case, lots of Proxy votes!) on some things, a board of directors, etc.. but it doesn't have to be a big involved thing.

Biggest thing you're "buying" is YOUR guaranteed access to this area. Or at least, your own say in whether it remains open or it gets closed (I don't see "us" closing it, of course).

I don't forsee the property being sold for a profit down the road, or even if a fee for access were charged, if I had my way, that money would get rolled back over into new acquisitions - no dividends paid back to the share holders (tho' maybe bein' a share holder is your "lifetime access" no-fee card)

One reason to limit the # of shares.. wouldn't want the Sierra Club deciding to buy a few thousand shares and turning this around on us.. :D

4 shares, no BS.

I think there is still a lot to work out. If it didn't work, I would want my money back or want it to go to a similar cause that benefits me.

If it does work, there still needs to be controls on what gets mowed down out there. I would want it governed similarly to the way it has been - good areas get trails but every sqaure foot needs to be dirt with tire tracks.

If this gets farther, let me know.

I could promise 2 shares in the next 40 days, possibly one or two more but 2 would be a sure thing.

It looks like the next logical step would be to organize a board to facilitate these planned actions. This would not cost any money to organize.
Than the board would have to deal with the paperwork, bylaws ect. After that I guess it would be time for a paypal & bank account to be set up.
Does this sound correct?

Originally posted by Mcstiff
It looks like the next logical step would be to organize a board to facilitate these planned actions. This would not cost any money to organize.
Than the board would have to deal with the paperwork, bylaws ect. After that I guess it would be time for a paypal & bank account to be set up.
Does this sound correct?

That's what I think.

Be sure to set it up such that if our bid for these trails fails, the coop will still exist and continue to seek other opportunities to buy wheelin' land.

Of course, that's assuming you sell the "minimum number of shares" required..

Concerning # of shares needed by may 1st; 10% is required at bid and the rest at closing.

I think a better way to do this is to set up a fund in the Utah Four Wheel Drive Association specifically for buying this land. Everyone still donates the same amount, but the managment is all done by U4. They can deal with making sure the area doesn't get trashed, making sure taxes get paid, signs are put up, etc... This would eliminate any colflict by different "owners" about how things should be done.

Either way, I'm in. When will we know if Upper Helldorado is in the auction parcel or not?

Originally posted by GhettoRig
...Either way, I'm in. When will we know if Upper Helldorado is in the auction parcel or not?

RR4W are scouting the area on Mar 14th, but as per Jeff Stevens (VP of RR4W) they are 95% sure the land contains Upper Helldorado and parts of Strike Ravine...

i could be in for at least 2, and i'm sure a few fellow club members would put up a share or 2. i've never been to moab, and i'd really like to go someday...

I'm in for 2 shares. Just tell me where to Paypal.

Now, because I would be a part owner, can I write-off an annual trip to Moab on my taxes? I have to check on my investment afterall.. Seriously, anybody got tax advice?

If you're still figuring out how to word the agreement;
I recommend no person, company, organization or family be able to own more than 5% of the coop. If anybody does, they forfeit voting rights on any percentage above 5%. Any transfer of ownership must be approved by a majority of other shareholders. A shareholder may rescind their ownership if they want to or need to, and their shares evenly redistributed to the remaining owners.

-tom

I'm in for 2 shares, and I like croozer's wording so far...

EDIT: add me for 2 more totalling 4 now :D


:usa:

This is an awesome idea...

id like to see someone set this up. if the contract is well done id play for 500 to 1000 ( i am buying property personally in colorado for this same reason so funds are tight)
what is the price of the whole to be raised? i might ask the lender for more if i had and idea what the bid range would be

also if this is successful would there be a place for a modest fee from users so that we could perpetuate this in the comeing years?

I'm in, so long as things are organized effectively.

- Chris

same here, I'd go for a couple shares if everything was done correctly.

i'm in for 2 shares. just lemme know where to send the $$$

so does someone have this in the works????

Wanting to help keep this at the top, and At 50$ I'm in for at least 2 shares. I almost died when I saw that the land is only 40K:eek: If the PBB members can't come up with a way to buy this,...well, we suck:(
Keep this in mind, I've never been to Utah, but want to go and wheel there "someday". Here in Indiana, farm land goes for 3K per acre, hell my sister bought a 5 acre lot for a house that was 60K, and "No Wheelin"!

"Step up to the Plate guys"

WEPS

Isn't there an Attorney or two on the board that can offer a prudent plan for us to follow?

I know Kurt is working on this and I expect an update sometime.

Originally posted by Mcstiff
I know Kurt is working on this and I expect an update sometime.

Yup, just got back from UROC, this will be a busy week but I expect to get alot more info on the Moab land... Stay tuned and thanks for all the help!

:D

Anything new on this??

WEPS

Originally posted by weps
Anything new on this??

WEPS

The Red Rock 4 Wheelers are having their trail run today... they were planning on mappping the area and getting the exact GPS coords. of the property to make sure Upper Helldorado, etc... is included in the SITLA sale...

Stay tuned!

put me down for 2 maybe 4 even. When I was a young lad my Father used to wheel in Moab and I have always wanted to make a trip out there to see what it's like after hearing his stories.

Any more news on this?

I am in for at least 2 shares....... and I live in Florida!!

Come on people, step up and protect this trail!

4 shares, no BS and ditto this.

Originally posted by SuperRanger
4 shares, no BS.

I think there is still a lot to work out. If it didn't work, I would want my money back or want it to go to a similar cause that benefits me.

If it does work, there still needs to be controls on what gets mowed down out there. I would want it governed similarly to the way it has been - good areas get trails but every sqaure foot needs to be dirt with tire tracks.

If this gets farther, let me know.

I'll definately go in for a share, maybe more when we have more details available.

Robert

I have one question:

If we all buy shares and "co-own" the property, are we liable if someone gets hurt?

How do the people that own the lions's back and dump bump get around it?

Would posting a big sign: ENTER AT OWN RISK be sufficient?

Has anybody heard anything?

i'm in for two

I voted I'm in for 4. This needs to happen soon. Lower Hell is as good as gone. I saw and observed the lady that bought it. There is a lot of really bad things going on from both sides. Eg. her closing the trail. But from our side, guys threatening this lady. I'm not saying that I like her in ANY meaning of the word. But threatening her will doing nothing but bad things. Come on people think.
Please make this happen.

Phil

I'd participate @10+shares.

I didn't read all the responses but the only conditions I would have is to put restrictions on the trails.

I am not in favor of indescriminate travel over every square inch. Existing trails and reasonable expansion for new trails would be acceptable.

Let me know how/when this purchase needs to be made.

Info on the auction (http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/landuse_moab_auction.html)

I am in at 10+ shares. I would want to make sure there is no liability to the share holders on accidents etc on the land. Maybe the way around that IS to charge a small fee for access and that being stated "fee paid to drive at own risk" THe fee collected can then go to future land purchases.

I would pitch in for 5+ shares. BUT how are we going to collect the money, and would it be possible for someone or a few people to front the majority of the amount, and then sell shares afterwards?

im in for 1 for sure...make sure its striaght and maybe 2 or 3 more...aint never been, but want to go, and ill pitch in to save those trails...i agreee with the " a few people buy it then sell the shares to users" idea...think itll be the easiest.....dont let them fukin greenies take anything... :smokin:

I might be able to swing 2 shares

I put down 2 shares.

By poll results, looks like about $12000 (minimum) is "raised".

We still have a ways to go, but it's possible.

Steve

It looks like U4 et al decided they could not by and manage the land as a org. There are 4-5 people out there intrested in buying the propreity and allowing access to 4wd's. Hopefully they will not bid aganst each other. I think there is still a need for a NPO whos mission is to buy land for the purpose of allowing responsable access. Maybe, over the next year, this will happen for when more land is up at auction.

how about the 4x4 related businesses ,it would be a wise investment to protect their livelyhood (no place to go =no customers) since land closures seem to have a domino effect

If a NPO was setup, I do not think it would be too hard to get business do donate money. Every, smart, business donates to NPO's because of the tax benefits. This is part of the reason why so many impartial business give money to the Serria Club. The board of directors may not give a rats ass about who gets the money as long as it is a NPO.
If there was a group buying land for equal and responsible access I'm sure SEMA members would help out.

I am in Canada and probably will never run it but put me and the company down for 2 shares, we gotta fight to keep or shiz open.

PM me when you need the cashola

I just spoke with some people that have handled land aquisitions in the past and the two questions were liability and more importantly, are there other parcels that may go up for sale in the future that will possibly make this purchase a moot point. If we bought this land now to save the trails, who says that the Gov't won't sell another parcel in 6 months that have a different section of the trail included and we're not able to purchase that land, turning it over to the greenies and in the end, losing the trail after all?
Can anyone answer this?
Personally, I would be in for more than 5 shares by soliciting my friends and family...It would be easy enough to gather 10 or more share this way but I would want it to be a secure deal where we won't ultimately lose out if another parcel next door sells to someone that can close the trail.

If a actual group was set up to buy land (its too late for this sale, even though from this poll we have at least $13,650) my hope would be that funds could be raised to buy adjacent parcels.

The question is how many parcels would we end up needing to buy? This could be a huge obstacle and if one simple acre on the trail goes to a greenie, then all of those acres bought could be useless...I am not trying to pee in your cheereos, I'm just trying to be realistic.
Is it really too late to bid on the land we're speaking of in this thread? The people I have spoken to are willing into look into buying it if this one question of other parcels could be addressed. They wheel moab and are the guys that show up with million dollar busses and what apper to be poser TJ's...that is until you take a closer look under the hoods and frames :) They're definitly more serious about wheeling than the majority of people on this board...wheeling about 3 days every week. Must be nice to be retired

It is not to late to bid. The auction is in Moab on the 14th. I was referring to it being to late to form a org to bid. As far as the question of if somebody could buy a acre and close the trail, The plots up at auction the 14th are 300+ and 160 acres each. I do not think Upper Helldorado strays off the land, however Strike Ravine crosses it.

Too bad this didn't go through.. I just voted to add another 2.. I might even be able to do more..

I'll put my same money towards just about any big trail I hope to hit someday.

It sounds like Someone should hook up RedBull's friends with the local club that did the surveying, to get some answers about the surrounding area..

Does anyone have any experience with buying land and making it public??

As far as liability..

What if we purchased the land, but then granted an easement back to the state of Utah (county? BLM?).

Easements are pretty common for roads, and I can't imagine that the private land owner is responsible if someone hurts themselves on the road..

Article about Public access on Private land:
http://www.lta.org/publications/exchange/exchange_21_02_09.pdf

Some (optimistic) text from that article:
To encourage landowners to make
land available for recreation, 47 states
have adopted legislation limiting landowners’
liability. These laws are generally
referred to as recreational use
statutes (RUSs), and they provide landowners
more protection than under
common law. For example, Colorado’s
RUS [Colo. Rev. Stat. § 33-41-103]
states, “an owner of land who either
directly or indirectly invites or permits,
without charge, any person to use
such property for recreational purposes
does not thereby… incur liability for
any injury to persons or property or for
the death of any person caused by an
act or omission of such person.”

Some info on texas law:

http://recenter.tamu.edu/pdf/1159.pdf


Yes I know Moab is not in Colorado, or texas :flipoff2:

And last but not least!

Utah's RUS text:
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/resources/repository/Utah_Recreational_Use_Statute.htm

You cna read it chapter by chapter on the official utah site here: http://www.le.state.ut.us/~code/TITLE57/57_0F.htm

My interpretation (and errmm well I'm a high school drop out.. so go read it yourself ;) ) is that as long as we don't charge a fee we are not responsible for anything that anyone does, as long as we (the land owners) do not purposely try to harm someone.. so.. no setting bear traps to keep greenies off the land..

The only caveat is see is children.. in some of the texts I listed above posts (but not utah), there is specific mention of children.. Most states say that If a child (under 16) is hurt by something that is known to be an attractive dangerous thing, the land owner can be at fault, no matter what...