Help, I think I'm over-engineering again..

With the new front end, I think I'm going to try sticking with the Chevy 2.5" wide U-bolt spacing with my IH 2" wide springs.

Thus, I want some spacers or something between the spring and U-bolts, and my stock Scout U-bolt plates won't work any more.

Stock Chevy plates are an ugly mess from what I've heard and not what I want.

It's a race rig, so I don't want to go over-heavy..

My trail Scout sports custom U-bolt plates I made out of some 3/8" plate..

I'm looking for something a little lighter/more elegant..

Hit Pacific Steel at lunch..

Plan as it is..

Two pieces of 1x1x.120 angle will sit along the springs, making a "C" channel (which will have a slight gap down the center), open-face down.

Then some 1x1x.120 square cut into short little pieces welded roughly at the four corners of the angle. The U-bolts will pass through these.

The top plate will be a 4" wide by 1/4" thick plate. I should've gone 4.5, but this might still work (probably end up cutting it to 4x5 or so squares)

The square tube on the corners will help stiffen the 1/4" flat on the top so it won't bend when I torque down the U-bolts. It'll also keep the U-bolts from thinking about splaying at all.

The two angles will help pinch the spring in place so it won't move around.
The flat plate will just tie it all together.

Sound like a plan? Will it be any lighter than a hunk of 3/8" plate and just make more work for me? :D

Not that I'm going to save a lot of weight here, but..

It feels GOOD to be fabbing something again..

Huh?:confused:

Sorry, but I can't seem to picture it. Could you post a drawing?

when we made spring plates for my buddies rig, we just used 1/4 plate and punched out the holes for the center pin and u-bolts. on two opposing sides, we bent the entire edge up at a 60 degree angle so it looked like \______/

By bending those flanges up, it added a tremendous amount of stiffening to the plate and it is still very light. You could take a couple pieces of 1/4" flat stock and add one on either side of the spring pack and weld it to the plate.

Like this \______/
............... | | (had to use the dots to get my ascii art to line up)

or maybe the top plate would be rotated 90 degrees, which ever position would offer the most stiffening.

That would be very light and quite strong..... just an idea.

Originally posted by Scout Dude
Huh?:confused:

Sorry, but I can't seem to picture it. Could you post a drawing?

They say a picture is worth 1000 words..

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_9_2002/pic13.jpg
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_9_2002/pic14.jpg
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_9_2002/pic15.jpg

That's just one side of the plate. The two piece of square will hold the U-bolts, the angle will sit over the spring.

Like this:

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_9_2002/pic16.jpg
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_9_2002/pic17.jpg
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_9_2002/pic18.jpg

Obviously it would be forward a few inches - it's behind the center pin just for demo purposes - I'll need to drill just a bit into the side angles.

Now, take TWO of these, one on each side.

There'll be a slight gap between the two angles, but it'll more or less make a "C"

Now drop the top-plate on.

Roughly like this:

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_9_2002/pic19.jpg

It's not welded on, just sitting there.

The 4" is too narrow. I need a piece about 5"x5" square, so I'll be back at Pacific tomorrow.. and obviously the U-bolt and center pin holes have not been drilled in the plate.

The pieces and parts:
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_9_2002/pic20.jpg

Upside down..

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_9_2002/pic21.jpg
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_9_2002/pic22.jpg
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_9_2002/pic23.jpg


Whaddya think?

TORC - I like your idea, too. I've thought of that.. if I had a good way to bend it, I would.

Otherwise, the flat plate with angle for strength is appealing.

But since I also wanted some shims between the U-bolts and springs, I thought up this idea..

They offer any welding classes at a JC near you???????? :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Old Scout
They offer any welding classes at a JC near you???????? :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Yeah they do, and yeah those welds are ugly.. ;)

I just made a little room around the 120 Hobart and plugged it in and tacked it up.. then realized the gas was too high and other things had been knocked out of adjustment... but it was good for a demo. :D

Guess I need to fire it up and spent some time getting reaquainted with it.. I haven't really been wrenching since March..

Heck, maybe next time I'll actually clamp the parts together instead of just settin' 'em next to one another and pulling the trigger. :)

Really, I do need more practice. I'm much more comfortable with my 230amp stick welder.. but the big 220 outlet doesn't get installed until after I'm done sheetrocking and painting..

Crystal Clear now Tom. Looks like it would be great especially for your race rig.


--Joel

Originally posted by Scout Dude
Crystal Clear now Tom. Looks like it would be great especially for your race rig.


--Joel

As I think about it more..

for my trail rig, I might just try some heavier angle - I wonder if I can get 1x1x.250 or 1.5x1.5x.250..

Might need a LITTLE trimming on one piece to get a good close "C" fit.

That would give me the 1/4" spacer on either side I want.

Then just a piece of, say, 1x1x.120 angle at the front and at the rear, going across the spring to give strength and resist bending when you crank down the U-bolts.


Weld it, U-bolt it, done.

no need to mess around with welding the little "boxes" to the sides n' such.

NOW I think of it. :-)


Here's the current 3/8" thick plate on my trail rig, with the center pin offset 7/8"..

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_9_2002/pic07.jpg

Of course, I'm thinking of going with 2.5" wide springs with the full width axles, so maybe it's not an issue about building special U-bolt plates..

I wonder if I can find a scale around the house and weigh the 3/8" plate "plate" and my "light weight"(??) design I started tonight..

Nahh.. I'll probably find out the 3/8" thick plate was lighter AND easier to fab, and that just won't do. :D

How bout some 2.5 x .250 channel, or 2 x .250 angle and overlap the two sections to form a "C"

Originally posted by Old Scout
They offer any welding classes at a JC near you???????? :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Bwahahaha I was thinking the same thing


nice idea thow I like it

Originally posted by jdjanda
How bout some 2.5 x .250 channel, or 2 x .250 angle and overlap the two sections to form a "C"

dam this guy is a thinker :D :D :D

Originally posted by jdjanda
How bout some 2.5 x .250 channel, or 2 x .250 angle and overlap the two sections to form a "C"

Channel was my first thought, but I couldn't remember if there was a size that would give me 2" ID.. or what the thickness of the sides would end up being.

Originally posted by jdjanda
How bout some 2.5 x .250 channel, or 2 x .250 angle and overlap the two sections to form a "C"

The inside surface of the "legs" on channel is usually tapered. How about some 2.5" x 1/4" square tube with one side cut off to make a deep channel with straight side legs.

FWIW, I changed my Hobart 120 back to .024 wire (from .030). It's MUCH happier with the lighter wire.

The weldor I bought it from only ran .024 in it and said it worked great for 1/8" and lighter (it was his portable welder, while the big Lincoln 220V MIG was the primary fabricatin' tool)

My welds turned out MUCH nicer tonight and I spent some time practicing.. maybe I'll take pictures tomorrow. :D

I originally bought the MIG for 1/8" and lighter - sheetmetal work. I have a 230amp stick for the heavier stuff (but currently not 220 outlet for it)

Cage tubing won't be more than 1/8" thick anyhow...

-Tom

After OldScout's barbs.. figured I need to get reaquainted with my welder.

Went back to the .024 wire, too.

Took a while to get the pictures off my camcorder.. I finally have my "better" capture board working under Winblows as well as Linux (I'd bought a PCI board that didn't work well in Windows while my old ISA board worked great.. finally found some updated drivers, blah blah)

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_24_2002/KS008.JPG

The experimenting plate to play with wire speed (never heat, it's always 4..) and gas..http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_24_2002/KS009.JPG

Is there a bird nest over your work area tommy?:flipoff2: your running too cold, or trying to put too much filler material in with one pass. With that small ass wire maybe you should try a multiple pass with a bit more heat, or less wire, Remember the material thickness will affect your heat range, but what do I know:flipoff2: :rasta: and one more thing...fill that creator at the end of your weld, that is a prime spot for a crack to develope:D

Originally posted by Scoutillac
Is there a bird nest over your work area tommy?:flipoff2:



Well, there is.. from when I was changing wire. :D


your running too cold, or trying to put too much filler material in with one pass.


Must be too much wire.. like I said, I only use two positions on the heat setting - 4, and "Purge" ;)


With that small ass wire maybe you should try a multiple pass with a bit more heat, or less wire, Remember the material thickness will affect your heat


It seems that if I use less wire speed it doesn't penetrate - can't get the sizzle. That sound right? It's smokin' the wire before it hits the steel.

A few of the test passes on the plate (I should've been more consistent about trying what and where, but I was having fun just playing..) I worked the gun with one hand and the wire speed with the other just to experiment.

I think I did that AFTER I welded the box-tubing to the angle. :D

The .030 wire didn't seem to work as well, but it's likely to be operator error. :D

Just a 120amp 110V Hobart. Straight CO2.


fill that creator at the end of your weld, that is a prime spot for a crack to develope:D

Will-do. I'm not done working on those U-bolt plates anyways.. and more practice is better.

I think I like my stick welder better. ;)

Thanks, Kevin.

Mebbe I'll try some more test passes and post pics and you can critique my lack of welding skills some more later. :)

'preciate it.

just bustin your balls a bit tommy:flipoff2: If your running hard wire use the argon mix gas, you will notice a big difference. There is not too much of a problem with your Gorilla Welds (ugly but strong):flipoff2: Next time your over you should come down to the shop and I'll learn ya proper on weldin:D

Originally posted by Scoutillac
just bustin your balls a bit tommy:flipoff2: If your running hard wire use the argon mix gas, you will notice a big difference. There is not too much of a problem with your Gorilla Welds (ugly but strong):flipoff2: Next time your over you should come down to the shop and I'll learn ya proper on weldin:D

Yeah, I know.. but I also really do want to improve my skillz.

This project (U-bolt plates) shouldn't require too much strength out of the welds.. but it's just a set-up for bigger and better things.

I'm still amazed my reverse shackle mounts have held - after I ground out the welds a dozen times and tried tried again.

I really do appreciate the input. I hope a lot of the problem is I'm just out of practice. :)

I've thought about taking the welding class at the VoTech, but I'm still taking college courses towards my degree and generally that kills at least one or two nights a week.. add in the monthly 4x4 club meeting, Michelle, and working late... and if I lose another wrenching night to welding class I might go postal. :D

I made U-bolt plats with this design from a big universal beam (got that word from a lexicon, hope its right) for my last rig. Maybe not the most robust, but they worked fine. The spring should go through the cut-out gaps.
http://www.ite.mh.se/~patost/temp/U-BoltPlate.JPG
I drawed it in MS Paint, so be indulgent...:emb:

http://www.ihssii.org/Hooper/Images-Technical/DriverPerch.JPG


This was how i designed mine. Can't say i did the welding. had a pro do that, but these work pretty well.

One plate all-but done.. I forgot to drill the center pin hole last night..

Yeah, just using the 3/8" plate I had probably would've been the better way to go.. oh well. :)

n' the welds probably still suck. :flipoff2:

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_31_2002/pic.JPG
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_31_2002/pic001.JPG
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_31_2002/pic003.JPG
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_31_2002/pic008.JPG
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_31_2002/pic011.JPG

While I was at it.. I took a pic of the remains of my old front end..

I put the center section in my chop-saw, cut just inside of the bearing caps, and then beat the sh*t out of it with the small BFH in the picture and a chisel until it all cracked and gave up the short side tube.

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_31_2002/pic012.JPG

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_31_2002/pic014.JPG

and the bent axle shaft.. I cut the worse part (the splined end) off before I could get it out of the tube..

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_31_2002/pic013.JPG

...and these are from Roggy..

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/1_31_2002/pic015.JPG

Holy shit balls those are the "best" welds i've ever seen. Why exactly are you going so overboard on something so simple? Here is a few pics of my front and rear ubolt plates.

rear

Originally posted by Brawler
Holy shit balls those are the "best" welds i've ever seen. Why exactly are you going so overboard on something so simple? Here is a few pics of my front and rear ubolt plates.

I'm glad I bought my MIG for sheetmetal.. now if I'd just get the 220 outlet wired for the stick welder I'd be happy. :D

I'm going overboard because I stupidly thought I could design a stronger/lighter U-bolt plate to save weight.

HAH.

I over-engineered it so now it just takes a lot more cuts, more welds, and more time.. and probably weighs as much or more. :D

But.. now that I've started, I have to finish, right?

Second time around.. I'll stick with my old-style U-bolt plates.

A hunk of 5x5 x 3/8" thick plate, with five holes drilled.

Take me just a few minutes on the drill press.

Heck, maybe I'll go ahead n' do that for the pass side U-bolt plate I haven't started on yet.

The only interesting thing is I wanted some 1/4" "shims" on either side of the spring so the U-bolts could sit in their 2.5" channels and still hold the 2" spring tight on the sides.