Today I re-affirmed my PHD in stupidity!
The wife has been nagging me lately to make more space in the garage and hinted that I put the boggers on E-bay... So eventually I decide to put em back on the rover ( 37x12.5-15 swamper boggers ) So after an hour or so ( in the rain, as she don't fit in the garage with 37's unless I air down ) I get them back on and decide to go for a test romp. Its been raining here on and off all week ( Denver ) and after a good little road test there is a construction site down the road from my house... I have been Eyeing this 3 foot deep creek/trench thing going through it for about two months now... Its got an almost 4 foot ledge on one side that drops into the ditch, its about rover width ( total, side to side ) and then goes up about 3 feet to the other side...

So I lock and walk the beast off the 4 foot ledge at an angle, no biggy... I was planning on keeping that line and walking out the other side ala mr twisty ( and ya it felt good, you can "feel" the articulation if you know what I mean ) ... But alas physics and lotsa gooey mud say "no your going to get sucked into the ditch"
( I shoulda known ) or just sit there and crab walk it till your blue in the face... so I manuever the beast to be driving straight up and down the ditch direction...I look for a good exit spot ( there really ain't one as its a new road being built and the ditch is LOONNG )..
I find an area that looks better than others ( its hard to tell as its *FULL* of water.... If I hadn't know about this spot before, it would be hard to spot it as it looks like a puddle with one side a foot higher than the other. So I engage the ARB's and give it some wellie, no use. I just end up crab walking or damn near about to tip over with one side of the rig out of the ditch and the other side in it... Well, this spot is right next to the main road ( its replacing it soon ) and I figure, the last thing I need is a cop to drive by and validify my stupidity with a "being stupid" ticket..
So I keep up the attemp a little more.... till I here "BANG":confused:, shortly followed by some choice words on my part.... So I gingerly test the gas to see just what went poof. I'm thinking front CV as usual, but I was smartly cutting the front ARB on and off as required when turning the wheel, so I was pissed... if it still broke, alas upon every so many feet of go, I get a "BANG".... but still have full drive ( cept for the short friction incurring "BANG" moments ).. So Balls to the wall, I finally get out of the quagmire, a few cars beep as they go by ( either A: cus its cool to watch, or B: I'm a butt-hole for ruining this pristine construction site with my baby seal killing, tree cutting earth wrecking yellow tractor-D90...

So I still have the "BANG" upon exit... Its coming from somewhere near the t-case or behind it... eliminating the front CV theory...
I unlock the diff, to wait for the dreaded "nogo" of a busted half shaft..... but Noooo! I'm running super spiffy rear 36 spliners, tough as nails! I can keep driving ( cept for the continuing bang )..
I get out to look for a bent drive shaft etc... However, all appears well after a visual.... I suspect I either poofed the rear R&P ( most likely ) or something in the T-case... I limp the 3/4 of a mile home.

put, put, put,put,"BANG",put,put,put,put,"BANG" etc....
The diff was locked just to be sure ( be sure I damaged more stuff, or got drive ? )..I get in the driveway, perform more difflock-unlock tests, mess with the crawler box ( all OK ) cept I get to a point where the shards of stuff holding the R&P or ??? together disintegrate... and no more unlocked diff drive....
When it stops raining and snowing and the wife isn't around to verify that I was being stupid again and broke more parts$$... I will pull the rear axles ( no easy task as I got lazy installing the 36 spliners and did not reem out the rear hub spindle assembly so the DIFF side splines *do not* fit through the hole ( yes I pulled the spindle hubs to put em in and they *just* fit that way )... then I will, if necesary pull the rear diff, then on to the T-case if that is fruitless....
Has anyone poofed a T-case rear output before?

So, Uhm, Err, Billster.... you still got the diff with 4.75's for sale?
:D

TomW

:eek: why is it the worst breaks occur when you're just fawking around? :flipoff2:

i'd jack up the ass-end and spin the rear wheels by hand. should be pretty obvious - if the rear diff doesn't crack snapple pop, drop the t-case side of the rear driveshaft and then try to spin the rear output with the diff-open and the trans in neutral. you should be able to narrow it pretty quickly and eliminate any wasted time with messin' unnecessarily with those spindles.

my .02 -

Originally posted by SeaRover
:eek: why is it the worst breaks occur when you're just fawking around? :flipoff2:

i'd jack up the ass-end and spin the rear wheels by hand. should be pretty obvious - if the rear diff doesn't crack snapple pop, drop the t-case side of the rear driveshaft and then try to spin the rear output with the diff-open and the trans in neutral. you should be able to narrow it pretty quickly and eliminate any wasted time with messin' unnecessarily with those spindles.

my .02 -
Yup!
I gotta pull the driveshaft and E-brake cover off anyways as my E-brake cable became ground *breifly* this winter and fried.

I suspect R&P due to the frequency of "Bang" with respect to rotational distance... seemed about right for a few teeth on the old ring gear giving it up.

Bill-n-FrankenrRover were seeing this, and his rig is ( was ) built with the same type of components ( 36 spline axles, 37" tires etc )

So now I can add another weak point ( the first being 110 CV's or any CV's ) that is the Ring Gear when running rigged w/ 37's

( things were mo-betta with the 35's I had on for a few years )
I think the wife was somehow trying to tell me this in a non-technical way

TomW

what r&p are you running? with the crawler i'd suspect 3.54??

Originally posted by SeaRover
what r&p are you running? with the crawler i'd suspect 3.54??

Nope, I'm running 4.75's.... Supa-slow-mo, I had the 4.75's 1st then got the crawler... I like the comba alot, It give alot of slow speed control on the really, really nasties or near vertical cliff/rock decents...
I did not have it engaged for this last little episode however, as it really wasn't needed

TomW

pisser! definitely keeping my 3.54's around as backups . . .

Bill and KC are in Moab this week. I talked to Sandi last night for a while. They said the weather was messy, but they were having fun.

I dunno if he still has those diffs or not...something tells me he probably does.

Bummer about being stupid. You should see what happened to me when I was being 'stupid'.

There's a thread about it HERE. (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=237838&highlight=Holley+ECU)

Yep, I was being stupid too.

:(

I was being stupid in my driveway and broke a rear axleshaft.

TomW,
So does the traction seem fine for a few feet/inches and then bang for a few seconds and then traction again? If so this sounds exactly like a R & P. I had this happen to me exactly 1 year ago and those were the symptoms.

BTW, Where exaclty in Denver do you live? Just curious, always good to keep in touch with the locals!

Originally posted by lwg
TomW,
So does the traction seem fine for a few feet/inches and then bang for a few seconds and then traction again? If so this sounds exactly like a R & P. I had this happen to me exactly 1 year ago and those were the symptoms.

BTW, Where exaclty in Denver do you live? Just curious, always good to keep in touch with the locals!

Ya, I'm about 99.99% sure its the R&P at this time. Over the last 10 years I've broken 3 others in Rovers... One was installed by a DIFF place without torquing or lock-tighting the carrier bearing, it went within the first day of driving, ( they replaced it all for free, but it blew in the middle of the Nevada desert at night in a snow storm during a GPS/rally competition we were doing very well in.
One went when 90 wght was not put into a R&R'd diff ( ARB O-ring thing ) that myself and another guy had fixed and we each thought the other had added it.... it actually siezed the pinion bearing "the Moab incedent". One set was a Series style 4.7 R&P that strippedin another heavier rig ( they are weaker than equivalent "coiler" R&P's ).... This one that went yesterday, has been around for a while... I think I had in my other rig for a few years, then put it in the D90 and have been running it there for about 4 years.... I really wasn't thrashing the vehicle that bad when it happened, I wasn't "rocking it" from Drive to Reverse or anything.. I had traction, just in the wrong direction so it was a matter of getting up enough simple forward velocity and then using the appropriate terrain to steer her out.... It didn't take much for it to break.... I've been in "mud runs" that went on all weekend, and have been very harsh ( in my other rig ) with no prob... In this case I just think the R&P was a bit long in the tootch and the 37's and hefty beadlock rims are just to much for the HD 4.75 R&P....
Those of us with "on the edge" rigs are seeing 35's are not a problem long term if your drivetrain has all the apporopriate upgrades ( myne does )... but once you move to 37's, at least the very heavy ones like mine ( prolly 125 lbs+ each, a real pita to move and change and get on the spare tire carrier!!! ). Then you will break something... I assumed the front CV's would break quickly ( I do have the oh so rare GKN torque limiters, which help )... and the first trip with 37's, they did break... So I have a big-ol pile of spare 110 CV"s ....as it goes with the teritory.....
I pre-emptivly swapped out the old 24 spline ARB and HD rear axles and went with the 36 spline ARB and SD axles.... I figured that was that.... but about a year ago Bill tried to convince me ( and others ) that the R&P was now the weak link and was a ticking bomb.... I kinda stuck my head in the sand as I really didn't want to adress the issue ( read $$, more time, and potentially obsoleting the 36 spline work I had just done )... I haven't wheeled to much over the last 1.5 years as we have a 1.5 year old daughter and sold our bay area home and moved to San Diego for the summer , and then onto Buy a home in Broomfield Co... So the issue was never really tested too much beyond the wheeling I did in the 1200 acre place in the Santa Cruz mountains we lived at, and a few pismo trips I did since getting the 37's...

So the bottom line is, was I being stupid? sorta, but when I think back on it, not so much by direct action ( cept for being pissed that I broke it )...... but more-so for putting the beefy 37's on without addressing the R&P wich Bill told me was now the weak point... There may be lighter 37's ( I'm sure the Boggers with the beadlocks are about the heaviest 37's around )....
But... Others with 37's or contemplating it...... be forewarned...

Also I have a blower on the beast which bumps her up to 230-250hp??? wich ain't helping much either ( my right foot likes it though, as it will bark the 37's and leave rubber with 35's while taking off from a "T" intersection )

So now I gotta think.... :idea:
repair or upgrade....:confused:
I just don't wanna be spendin a bunch-o-moola... but wanna set up the rig correctly for the tires/wheeling I do....
So is it stay w/ the 35's and replace the R&P or...........
do a hybrid axle nightmare ($$$,time ect ) and hope its bullet proof for even heavy 37's

TomW

Originally posted by Serious One
Bill and KC are in Moab this week. I talked to Sandi last night for a while. They said the weather was messy, but they were having fun.

I dunno if he still has those diffs or not...something tells me he probably does.

Bummer about being stupid. You should see what happened to me when I was being 'stupid'.

There's a thread about it HERE. (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=237838&highlight=Holley+ECU)

Yep, I was being stupid too.

:(


Yup, you were being stupid :flipoff2: :D

Next your try wearing your copper hat during a lightning storm while standing on the roof :rolleyes:

Thanks for the 411 on Bill & KC's 10-20

I have a feeling he still has the diff, but now I recall that its a front( 24 spline ) with the appropriate reverse cut 4.75 R&P???

I hope KC has his web page up with info on the hybrid stuff that Bill is running... I *don't* want to have to go that route dollar wise.... but ugh, we'll see, funds are tight, just bought a new house, and have been working on stuff without a paycheck (or for stock in leiu of $$$ ) for a few years.....
But I'm prolly going to start work at another startup this week hopefully

TomW

Originally posted by 64rovr
I was being stupid in my driveway and broke a rear axleshaft.

I'm not sure I could do that :flipoff2: And I used to have a pretty long driveway!

TomW

You aren't trying hard enough.

You are the second d90 I have heard with a manual and 4.75's, and 35-37's that has broken in the Denver area in 6 months. Personally, (and please take this with an open mind) that you have over built your rig in certain areas, and are seeing the penalty of that. I have spoken to others who put in the crawler and 4.75's, and they are scared of the throttle because of shock load breakage. I can't imagine that with a blower.

You can say that toys run 5.29's all day and 37's/35's on a 8-9 inch ring gear, but, when was the last time you saw a 4cyl with 250hp, and around 325 torque? My friend runs a 4cyl, with a crawler, and 5.29's with 35's for a crawl of 230:1. That's fine on his rig, which ways in a about 3800lbs, which is close to a D90. But he has 180lbs of torque on a good day.

Do the math on you motor and drivetrain, and you will probably be scared at the torque multiplication from that crawler. Hell, do it without the crawler, and just use the lt230 numbers with a 4.75 and you will see it.

It sounds like you are not really on a budget (living on stock for a few years?) so I say this:

Remove the 380 and put in an auto.
Go back to 3.54's in the pinions.
Keep the crawler
Buy a trailer and drive a commuter car.

Just got back from EJS. Had a short trip cuz I burned out the clutch on the BJ42.

The diffs are sold, sorry dude.

Only way to go for your situation is some sort of upgraded axles. Not worth sticking to the rover stuff anymore with your setup (been there and done that).

I might have a smokin' good deal for you though. PM me for details.

Billster

Swap in a toy third with 4.71 or 4.875 gears and either get a toy ARB and swap your side gears or I think you can even modify your ARB to fit up to the toy third.

This way you can still run your 36 spline axles and you get a much cheaper and much stronger CW&P.

Sam

Originally posted by redrangie
You are the second d90 I have heard with a manual and 4.75's, and 35-37's that has broken in the Denver area in 6 months. Personally, (and please take this with an open mind) that you have over built your rig in certain areas, and are seeing the penalty of that. I have spoken to others who put in the crawler and 4.75's, and they are scared of the throttle because of shock load breakage. I can't imagine that with a blower.

You can say that toys run 5.29's all day and 37's/35's on a 8-9 inch ring gear, but, when was the last time you saw a 4cyl with 250hp, and around 325 torque? My friend runs a 4cyl, with a crawler, and 5.29's with 35's for a crawl of 230:1. That's fine on his rig, which ways in a about 3800lbs, which is close to a D90. But he has 180lbs of torque on a good day.

Do the math on you motor and drivetrain, and you will probably be scared at the torque multiplication from that crawler. Hell, do it without the crawler, and just use the lt230 numbers with a 4.75 and you will see it.

It sounds like you are not really on a budget (living on stock for a few years?) so I say this:

Remove the 380 and put in an auto.
Go back to 3.54's in the pinions.
Keep the crawler
Buy a trailer and drive a commuter car.

Get the reading glasses cleaned :flipoff2: :D

I said the crawler was *NOT* engaged... I would never use it under anything but crawling with it at near idle gas... It *IS* an auto box , its just due to the tire size ( and the R&P and 3rd came from my old rig, its ~7yrs old ). The R&P is the only part that hasn't got a 2nd level upgrade ... as in the 4.75's are supposed to be HD ( 1st level upgrade ) .... but not SD ( 2nd level upgrade )... as in my old axle shafts were HD 24 spline ( 1st level upgrade ) but I pre-emptively upgraded again to 36 spline ( 2nd level upgrade ) after a few years when I wanted to go to the next level.... 2nd level upgrade

This 3 stage upgrade ( 0,1,2 ) has happened on eveything over time. Its not a rushed thing.. I have two daily drivers, and the D90 rides behind one of them ( 400hp 800ft/lbs propane injected,chipped,dualy diesel ) to the trail mostly :cool: The other ones two seats, convertable, rallye roll bar, 4wd and speaks german , much more fun on road the a D90! So not many road miles on the D90! I learned that with my previous coiler over the years.
I just have to figure do I upgrade 3rd members, or go back to 35's
and stay the way I was.... and no... any company that I worked for in the last 4 years' stock makes great toilet paper ( unlike others I have worked for in the way ...past, so frugle is a good long time bet )
As a hardened 20 yr silicon valley software vet I sometimes have to take a chance on startups these days ( all of our jobs are going overseas ...You say so what... well technology has helped differentiate our country from most others in almost every sector... you can kiss that goodbye! And alot of stuff that shares with it that you may not realize, So I do have a budget these days, its called my 1.5 yr old daughter and padding for retirement, for when there ain't no more hi-tech left here and my BS-EE & CS degrees ( 7 years ) just make me overqualified for burger king:rolleyes: oops sorry, damn soap box :D

I'll PM Bill, but may do a quick fix and then upgrade as allowed ( read: the wife won't let me spend to much on toys these days, better safe than sorry... she's an engineer too )

TomW

Originally posted by Strange Rover
Swap in a toy third with 4.71 or 4.875 gears and either get a toy ARB and swap your side gears or I think you can even modify your ARB to fit up to the toy third.

This way you can still run your 36 spline axles and you get a much cheaper and much stronger CW&P.

Sam

This sounds interesting, tell me more ( I been half following stuff you've done over the years, but musta zoned this one )

TomW

Dude, I missed the part with the auto, sorry. I know you said the crawler was out, but I am talking about stress loads here. Like you said, it was an old r&p.

Still, I stand by what I said about the lower gear ratio in the pinion. Especially with a blower. just get a 60 from a van, a front 60 from a cucv (diesel blazer, as in ex military) and start welding.

Or, better yet, do the fj80 thing. I know where you can get a pair, with e-lock, in denver. all you do there is re-do the radius arm mounts and links at the frame side. the brake fittings are even the same and you gain 2" pinion height. Should be doable for under 2.5g.

I would have bought them, but I haven't sold enough networks or tables.
j

what are these 36 spline axles you are talking about?

He prolly means the 30 spline Maxi's with an RD76 30 spline ARB.

BTW have you guys ever looked at the front R+P on an FJ80 axle? It is teeny tiny. I cannot believe they don't break more often. Looks smaller than the Rover R+P, although it is high pinion.

Billster

Originally posted by FrankenRover
He prolly means the 30 spline Maxi's with an RD76 30 spline ARB.

BTW have you guys ever looked at the front R+P on an FJ80 axle? It is teeny tiny. I cannot believe they don't break more often. Looks smaller than the Rover R+P, although it is high pinion.

Billster Yup thats what I meant...
I thought they were 30 spline one one end and 36 on the other?

What was I thinking... Oh well I'll find out again today after I rip the diff out....

PS: Bill, I'm-a-thinking about your thing... I'll PM-ya when it gels :)

TomW

toy 8 inch pinion smaller than ford 9 inch but bigger than rover

But the front reverse rotation high pinion on the 80's has a really thin ring gear and looks pretty weak compared to the regular cruiser stuff. The ring gear looked thinner than the rover as well, although it is larger in diameter. Not much of an upgrade in front except for the axles and CV's.

Billster

Tom,
I have a 4.7 rover R&P set I'd be happy to get outta here. I also have a matching salisbury set if somebody is interested. I could even scare up a 3rd member w/ or w/o 24 spline ARB if you need. I'm packing up for a move and it would be nice not to pay movers to move more scrap metal.

Hit my e-mail: putninsj at surewest dot net

or call me: 707-330 four three three oh.

I'm traveling back and forth so my internet access is spotty. I check e-mail, but not real often POR.

Need anything else?
-John

Originally posted by FrankenRover
He prolly means the 30 spline Maxi's with an RD76 30 spline ARB.

BTW have you guys ever looked at the front R+P on an FJ80 axle? It is teeny tiny. I cannot believe they don't break more often. Looks smaller than the Rover R+P, although it is high pinion.

Billster
The front CW&P on the fj80 is the same as a rear toy minitruck except high pinion. This crownwheel is actually smaller than a rover crownwheel (toy 8in vs rover 8.5in) but because of the hypoid design vs the rover spiral bevel makes the setup a lot stronger (about 3 times stronger if you ask Jac Mac) For equivalent ratios the toy pinion would almost be twice the diameter and almost twice as long as the rover even though it has a smaller diameter.

Another way to think of it is that the rover CW&P is the same diameter as a D44 - both 8.5inches and a d44 is way stronger. Its the design of the rover that makes it weak not the size.

TomW - Ill see if I can find anything out about swaping a rover hemisphere into the toy centre. We have done it the other way around a few times (toy hemi into rover centre) and Im sure I have read that it can be done. Now if you do have 30 spliners then if you get a toy third with an ARB it will fit straight in once you redrill the housing - very simple modification and would be the best way to go IMO.

Sam

Originally posted by Strange Rover



TomW - Ill see if I can find anything out about swaping a rover hemisphere into the toy centre. We have done it the other way around a few times (toy hemi into rover centre) and Im sure I have read that it can be done. Now if you do have 30 spliners then if you get a toy third with an ARB it will fit straight in once you redrill the housing - very simple modification and would be the best way to go IMO.

Sam

Thanks, I think we all would appreciate that info!
In the short term I've got a R&P to replace the busted one... ( its cryo'd and supposedly better in some other ways un like the older one I had in her that broke.... but I'm still not sure long term..
I have to wait to see what if some new clients/contracts-startup comes through before I can commit to a "major" operation... So lets see what happens, and gather info while we wait!

TomW

Originally posted by redrangie
Dude, I missed the part with the auto, sorry. I know you said the crawler was out, but I am talking about stress loads here. Like you said, it was an old r&p.

Still, I stand by what I said about the lower gear ratio in the pinion. Especially with a blower. just get a 60 from a van, a front 60 from a cucv (diesel blazer, as in ex military) and start welding.

Or, better yet, do the fj80 thing. I know where you can get a pair, with e-lock, in denver. all you do there is re-do the radius arm mounts and links at the frame side. the brake fittings are even the same and you gain 2" pinion height. Should be doable for under 2.5g.

I would have bought them, but I haven't sold enough networks or tables.
j

No worries on the dirty glasses :)

I'd like nothing better than having some bullet proof axles under her, but it all has to "work-out" smoothly in alot of ways...

Sound easy to grab some D60's/70's and stick em under their ( I do weld etc... ) but I'm sure there a few more issues than that!

So I guess its time to start studying em a bit.

TomW

Originally posted by tomw


No worries on the dirty glasses :)

I'd like nothing better than having some bullet proof axles under her, but it all has to "work-out" smoothly in alot of ways...

Sound easy to grab some D60's/70's and stick em under their ( I do weld etc... ) but I'm sure there a few more issues than that!

So I guess its time to start studying em a bit.

TomW

I really don't think there are. I have put a lot of thought into this. I think where you get into trouble is when you try and re-invent the wheel. The Rover suspension is pretty well done, and works well if the springs are retained, and the rear is stiffened to make the front work better.

The only issue is the caster of the front . However I think that if you match the rover housing exactly, you should be ok. If I do the Toy, the ONLY think I will change is the frame side mounts, to use the TOY gear. You can hi-steer the fj front. and you can offset the toy radius arms for pinion or caster.

I think that a d90 with fj80's would be unstoppable, or at least predictable where it would break (birf).

This is where opinions and reasoning begin to differ...

Why would you bother to swap in Land Cruiser axles, when you can put all the same guts into a Rover housing, and save yourself the fabrication, steering, braking, suspension issues?

Originally posted by 64rovr
This is where opinions and reasoning begin to differ...

Why would you bother to swap in Land Cruiser axles, when you can put all the same guts into a Rover housing, and save yourself the fabrication, steering, braking, suspension issues?

I was under the impression that a LC third member was too large to be fit into a rover housing. And if you were to use any 80 series birfs, I doubt they'd fit.

D60's are the best way to go.. and stronger..

They are not using LC diffs. They are centers from Toy Minitrucks. They are also using Longfields. They fit in the swivels but requires boring the spindles, fitting a custom bush and custom flanges.

The HP front diff fits in a Rover housing, as demonstrated by Sam. For the rear, there is nothing wrong with a V6 diff from a Toy truck. 4 pin carrier, etc etc etc.

The 80 series birfs would most likely not fit in a Rover housing, however it has been seen that a (properly) Longfielded version of a standard Toy birf is stronger than a non-treated FJ80 birf. Nobody makes an upgraded 80 birf, yet.

I fail to see the complete benefit from swapping to FJ80 axles, when their strength could be equalled using the existing Rover housings, at what would likely amount to a lesser cost. Priced a FJ80 front axle recently?

Swapping in 80 axles would be a waste of time and effort in my opinion. You "might" get a stronger R+P, definitely a moderately stronger birf., but that is it. With your heavy truck (carrying spares and tools just like me) 37"ers the supercharger, and crawler, the birfs will not last long. Plus the 80 birfs are not a dime a dozen like the earlier Birfs, and the inner axles will still break your bank when the go.

And just show me where you can buy the 80 axles with electric lockers for cheap. And you still have to figure in cost of new ring and pinions, install kits, labor to do all the bracketry (which ain't to easy with the 3 link stuff). Not worth it.

35 spline 60's(or 14 bolt) or 35 spline 9" is the only way to go for a Rover with big tires, low gearing and a desire to be free of breakage. Excluding of course the more exotic stuff like Mogs or Eatons, or 101 stuff.

Now the "drop in" toy stuff using the rover housing is a better idea. Certainly cost is significantly better than the 80 axles. But I still think it is a bandaid for the bigger badder trucks and drivers.

Billster

Oh, and I am sure someone will say something about the high pinion on the front of the 80 diff. And my answer is that I never hit the Rover pinion area in front anyway. And I have bashed the crap outta the low pinion 9" in the rear with no damage at all to the pinion yolk or the driveshaft.

Just as a side note on CVs and stuff so far in mt tube buggy thtas running a 4.4L/ZF/LT230 with toy minitruck 4.3:1 axles and 38tsls filled with water to top of rim in front (Im going to loose some water now) I have broken:

1 stock HD defender CV on the long side
and on the short side I have now broken 2 genuine longfields and 1 toy wrongfield (our version of a longfield) This is all in the spac of 2 months - so Im breaking a lot of stuff here.

The rover wrongfield on the long side has survived both short side longfield and the wrongfield breakages. Got lots of interesting info to post and lots of theories and will post info and pics when I got more time.

One thing for sure we have all got to put steering stops on the back side of our steering axles - not having rear stops is killing CVs IMO. The wheel can just flex so far backwards especially the side not connected to the steering box.

Oh yea - the longfields bells are realy really soft - I think I got a bad batch.

Sam

Just to make things more clear Im running rover CVs on the longside and Toyota CVs on the short side.

Sam should you switch sides with the rover CV to continue testing? I always wondered if one side was more vulnerable from axle wrap or lack of support. But you say the long side is hanging in there with the rover cv.Interesting.

JP
bash a nine on your behind lately?
Any good EJS action Bilster?

Originally posted by Strange Rover
Just as a side note on CVs and stuff so far in mt tube buggy thtas running a 4.4L/ZF/LT230 with toy minitruck 4.3:1 axles and 38tsls filled with water to top of rim in front (Im going to loose some water now) I have broken:

1 stock HD defender CV on the long side
and on the short side I have now broken 2 genuine longfields and 1 toy wrongfield (our version of a longfield) This is all in the spac of 2 months - so Im breaking a lot of stuff here.

The rover wrongfield on the long side has survived both short side longfield and the wrongfield breakages. Got lots of interesting info to post and lots of theories and will post info and pics when I got more time.

One thing for sure we have all got to put steering stops on the back side of our steering axles - not having rear stops is killing CVs IMO. The wheel can just flex so far backwards especially the side not connected to the steering box.

Oh yea - the longfields bells are realy really soft - I think I got a bad batch.

Sam

Just to make things more clear Im running rover CVs on the longside and Toyota CVs on the short side.

Originally posted by 64rovr

I fail to see the complete benefit from swapping to FJ80 axles, when their strength could be equalled using the existing Rover housings, at what would likely amount to a lesser cost. Priced a FJ80 front axle recently?

Good questions.
FJ80 stuff is very regionally priced. California sees 750.00 all day long for e lockers, colorado sees 1500, both hub to hub.
The rest of the expense is in the welding to bring the fj radius arms to the frame. Fronts can be part timed I believe (hubs)

Roverstuff
custom inner axles (pair) 500 per? longfields 180 per each? arb side gear conversion? What if you don't run arb, and run detroits? machining stubs 200? per axle. Looks pretty equal to me.

I think it's where your strengths are. Billster makes a good point, in that a full on 60 or 9 swap is best, however, if you don't have 5g, it makes it hard.

I have a real tight budget. I wanted to go to 35's or 37's, (my suspension is already there) but for what we use the truck for, it doesn't make sense. Somehow 8 hr road trips with 37's through the rockies and surrounding area doesn't sound fun. I can tell you one thing, it will take my front 1000.00 to make my front bullet proof for 33's and that's without spares. It is marginal as it is. With the knowledge that I will NEVER do much bigger, 1500 for a complete FJ80 and 4-5 fabrication hours of my own time will do just fine.

Billster said one key thing: "But I still think it is a bandaid for the bigger badder trucks and drivers."

I can run you through the costs of putting Toy CVs into a Rover housing.

Jack Mac inner shafts, 24 spline at diff 27 at CV $400 (same cost for 30 spline at diff)
Profields are currently $99 each, so $200
Jack Mac drive flanges $200/pr
I was charged $350 by the machine shop to make the spindle mods
ARB is roughly $600 depending where you get it from.

Total being $1750

The above leaves you with a Rover diff and 3.54 gears, arguably the strongest stock-differential configuration. This is what I'm currently running in the front of the Range Rover.

To take it one step further, you can add the HP Toy diff to the mix, with factory 4.10 gears.

New 4.10 HP E-locker 3rd member $750
Inner axleshafts $400
Profields $200
Spindle mods $350
Drive flanges $200

Total $1900

So essentially, are you going to save yourself $400 worth of fab work by putting the Toy guts into a Rover housing? IMO yes, after you consider brakelines, driveshafts, wheels, steering, etc. I'll just asssume take the easier, bolt together route and end up with something just as strong.

Originally posted by 64rovr
I can run you through the costs of putting Toy CVs into a Rover housing.

Jack Mac inner shafts, 24 spline at diff 27 at CV $400 (same cost for 30 spline at diff)
Profields are currently $99 each, so $200
Jack Mac drive flanges $200/pr
I was charged $350 by the machine shop to make the spindle mods
ARB is roughly $600 depending where you get it from.

Total being $1750

The above leaves you with a Rover diff and 3.54 gears, arguably the strongest stock-differential configuration. This is what I'm currently running in the front of the Range Rover.

To take it one step further, you can add the HP Toy diff to the mix, with factory 4.10 gears.

New 4.10 HP E-locker 3rd member $750
Inner axleshafts $400
Profields $200
Spindle mods $350
Drive flanges $200

Total $1900

So essentially, are you going to save yourself $400 worth of fab work by putting the Toy guts into a Rover housing? IMO yes, after you consider brakelines, driveshafts, wheels, steering, etc. I'll just asssume take the easier, bolt together route and end up with something just as strong.

I think you missed what I meant. I am talking whole axles. Housings and all. Toy brake fittings are 10x1, same as rover. Wheels? junkyards are full of them, even bling-bling aluminum. 10-30 a piece for 16". Steering is easy.
Only trick in the caster on the front.

You make good points though about bolt together though.

Hey Pendy,

Yea we had a good time. KC rolled the mog again (pretty damn hard this time). His roll cages actually hold up! Who woulda thought. Here is a link to some Cruiser picts of the BJ42 we have been wrenching on. It is more of a daily driver for me than an extreme crawler. But it did really well on the hard stuff on Pritchett Canyon before burning up the old clutch.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=240758

Here is a pict of KC's crunch

Billster

How many times did it go over there?

When is the emblem going to fall off?

JP

Originally posted by pendy
Sam should you switch sides with the rover CV to continue testing? I always wondered if one side was more vulnerable from axle wrap or lack of support. But you say the long side is hanging in there with the rover cv.Interesting.

JP
bash a nine on your behind lately?
Any good EJS action Bilster?



I really should switch sides although I dont have a decent short side front axle to run the rover CVs. The origional Jac Mac short side (30 spline inner to 23 spline outer) got chewed fairly bad when I broke on of the origional rangie CVs. ATM on the short side I have been running landcruiser short side axles with a 10mm spacer (a nut) welded to the diff end to make up the correct length. Every time Ive broken a short side CV so far I have stuffed the axle (either twisted and chewed or just twisted) so its lucky I can run junk cruiser axles or this would start to be getting expensive.

Im starting to believe that it isnt necessary to switch to toy CVs to upgrade our front axles. Our front crown and pinion is probably strong enough (anybody broken a front crown and pinion??) and I think that a similar longfielding process can be done with the rover CVs. So far I believe my wrongfielded rover CVs are much stronger than the stock HD defender CVs (I broke the stock one fairly easily and havnt broken the wrongfielded rover CV that replaced it yet) And my wrongfielded toy cv seem to be stronger than the longfields that got. The toy wrongfield broke by landing a spinning front wheel under full noise and both longfields broke at crawling speeds. I believe the longfields that I have are a bad batch cause the bells are very soft and the balls have really distorted their races. There are big cracks in every bell race as well as the bell being opened up on the two that I have broken. Other guys with earlier longs here have not had this problem at all. So far all my toy wrongfields have broken stars and cages and the bells have all remained intact - we have broken 2 so far and in both cases the inner axle has twisted about half a spline. When we start breaking stock toy inners we will know we are getting close to longfields best.

I think its just a matter or playing with the wrongfielding recipe a bit and they should end up fairly good. And at the rate we are breaking stuff we will be able to progress along fairly quickly. All good fun though.

Sam

Originally posted by Strange Rover


So far all my toy wrongfields have broken stars and cages and the bells have all remained intact

Sam

Sam Don't you mean bells and cages and the stars have remained intact??? I know it is 10pm or so in Australia so probably past your bedtime:flipoff2:

Was the spare axle I gave you with the CV a cruizer short one???

So now I gotta think.... :idea:
repair or upgrade....:confused:
I just don't wanna be spendin a bunch-o-moola... but wanna set up the rig correctly for the tires/wheeling I do....
So is it stay w/ the 35's and replace the R&P or...........
do a hybrid axle nightmare ($$$,time ect ) and hope its bullet proof for even heavy 37's

TomW [/B][/QUOTE]

After facing the same delima recently here is my opinion. If you want to keep 37's(yes) and "upgrade" from the HD rover stuff for the least amount of $$ go toy 3rds/inners/longfields. Things will still break but probably not as frequently and will be less $$ to replace($600 for 1 set of rover 4:75s...are you kidding me!). Spend more money and do a unique conversion like FJ80s or 101s and still risk breaking on occasion(Timm broke 1-2 101 CVs with 36s right?) or spend some $$ and go 60 or 9" or whatever and hopefully not have to worry about axle parts breaking. In the end for me it was cost already invested in HD rover stuff, the thought of replacement costs for such parts, and risking the expense/fun lost on going across the country for a few big trips a year ruined by a major breakage(R&P, ect) that led me to go top shelf.

Tis

Upgrading to a Toy CV sees a major advantage in the size of the stub shaft, IMO. After seeing an AEU2522 stub shaft twist off right at the splines, I can see the benefit from having a larger, 30 spline stub.

Right now I expect my weak link to be the Profield-- a $99 part to replace. I am happy with this being a "fusable link".

If, when I start breaking Profields, the inner axleshafts become too mangled to use, I have another option stirring in my head rather than spending $200 per side on a new axleshaft.

Sam has stumbled upon the coincidence that the Toy CV internals are interchangeable with the Rover CV internals. What I plan to do, as soon as these inners are rendered inop, is to replace the stars in the Profields with 23 spline stars from a Rover CV. This will gain me an off-the-shelf inner axleshaft, available from any number of aftermarket Rover suppliers.

I believe that the ultimate combination, while retaining the Rover front axle housing and diff, would be a 3.54 R&P, ARB, NSO inner axleshafts, and Longfields. Supposedly there was quite a significant batch of "bad" Longfields and Profields, but the ones currently on the market are far better in quality. Supposedly. With the NSO alloy inners and "good" Longs, I think we could see reliability up to 38.5" tires.

OK, what about the Salisbury rear with 1.5 inch 35 spline axles.... this is in essence a dana 60 with maybe a minir difference in the Ring gear... I have a lead on a coiled, disc braked rear axle... What kind of lockers are available? ARB, Detroit? or ( see below )

Does anyone know much about these, what gear ratio's did the r&p come in.

ya, I Had a ( nice ) 101FC wich I put Jac-mac lockers on then had the engine blow, wife made me sell it when we put the Cali house for sale as who was gonna buy a $illy-con valley house with this military truck in the driveway with a homemade wooden framed tackle & block hanging over it for engine pulling..... I still have the now rebuilt engine but sold the rig kinda cheap... I shoulda saw-zalled the axles off and pushed the body over the cliff near my house ( sacriledge I know ).... but then it would been captain zappy welder time, and a fully locked 6 lugged 5.29 geared beast would've emerged I think I have pics of the axle innards from the locker swap... nice!

OK, so my new ring & pinion arrived the other day, I pulled the diff and dropped it off to the guy who's agonna be fixin it! He tears into her, and low and behold...... one of the carrier bearings spun and siezed up ( I didn't look to close except for the obvious chunk out of the ring gear before I dropped the oil coated beasty off )... apparently the diff was setup way to loose and this allowed the diff to kind of have a rocking motion inside her.... it took out the little o-rings, slightly bent the 1/2" cap bolt, bent the backing plate for the ring gear, chomped the ring gear etc.... ( all repairable, fortunately ).... When I got her out I could turn the pinion flange almost 1/2 a turn before backlash made things hook up!
but this explains a few things:

A) I thought she broke to easy ( as I had stated, I wasn't really spanking her just plugging some mud at a reasonable mud plugging level, being careful when shifting directions ect...I didn't feel the tires "hook up" on anything when they were "clearing the mud from the grooves" )

B) that one day or two or so that I was cruising her on the highway to the Mall... Err I mean the trail :) I thought I heard that "over-run" noise... you know, the sound a loose ring & pinion make when you coast off the gas...
Well it was just that ( hard to tell in a noisy, lifted, blown, boggered, D90 soft top with the fiberglass noise keeper inner top on )...
Consequently, upon hearing the noise I did my normal, get under the truck and tighten the crap outa everything routine, I found the usual suspects were getting loose ( driveshaft adapter bolts, drive shaft to pinion were a tad loose, drive flanges loosen up ect...but this is SOP for the rig ) it did quiet it down a bit so I was happy, but alas I really hadn't taken her on anything but short trips after that so I really wouldn't have heard much over-run noise... Those 37 swamper boggers ( unbalanced on beadlocks ) really SHASHASHAKE the rig up on the highway so I try not to use on highways, as I'll be tightening bolts again!

My guy says I should kick butt on the one who set it up... we'll its one of two guys, I almost forget which one did what, so I'll just leave it at that :mad3: life happens!

note to self, when ya hear the overun noise or even think ya hear it.... its a problem, check it out ASAP!

Oh yeah, it turns out this wasn't the 7 year old diff this one is about 2-2.5 years old, so its been slowly stewing in there... I think when I flat towed it from San Diego it prolly was a long enough drive to maybe get the bearing started on being spun since it was loose to start with due to the excessive backlash at anyrate its only seen a few hardcore ( if even that ) trips since the baby is 16 months old and... do the math, I've been kinda busy since then and for a few months before!

As far as the Sals goes, look at the numbers closely. By the time you upgrade it to 35 spline (new diff, new axles, new spindles, machined hubs) alot of money has gone into it (plus what ever you bought the axle for). In its stock form, it is only moderately better than the stock rover stuff (certainly stronger ring gear, but same 24 spline axles). Plus you are loosing clearance under the diff as well.

Billster

As far as the Sals goes, look at the numbers closely. By the time you upgrade it to 35 spline (new diff, new axles, new spindles, machined hubs) alot of money has gone into it (plus what ever you bought the axle for). In its stock form, it is only moderately better than the stock rover stuff (certainly stronger ring gear, but same 24 spline axles). Plus you are loosing clearance under the diff as well.

Billster

You may be correct Bill. It actually would be a real dana 60 housing with the rover hubs/discs welded on, converted to our coil springs with a salisbury center... to keep costs down I would do a spool or detroit, sell all my current shiat, and then horse trade some stuff, and possible trade my new overbored 3.5 block with 3.9 cams, heads and holley intake... this brings it down to not much outlay.... anyways its just one of the possibilities, gotta look at em all.

on the bright side, the diff failed due to improper setup, hell I paid for this? I can set one up that will break for free :laughing: There aren't many things I farm out these days, but diffs is one of em.
So I beleive this was a psuedo freak thing and I may focus more on the front as I know how that is truly the weak point for me ( this is not to say the 4.75 R&P in the rear isn't a weak point either, just less weak than the 110 CV setup in the front )
In one view the deal for the front would also be a dana 60 from a GM with our
disc brakes possibly and the new super dana 60 birfs or maybe just U-joints. again I sell all my shiat ( including spare CV's and the GKN clutch hubs ), horse trade and generally get water from a rock to pay for it :)

Ultimately it would be nice if both axles had lockable hubs to aid in flat towing and ease of recovery if an axle does break or something...and to ease the rear spool thing on road ( is it OK to drive a rear spool on street by using one hub locked and the other not ? )

anyways, I'm still scheming, so who knows... I should start mapping out the pick and pulls....I hope they are not already stripped clean!

Much better road driving with the spool instead of one axle. With one axle the rig will drive all over the place with the throttle (cause the rear push comes from one side) With a spool the rig will drive as straight as a die, it will actually driver straighter than an open diff. Just got to put up with the chirping around corners.

Sam

If Bill Davis set up that diff, then that is the second within a few weeks I have heard/seen prematurely wearing and getting WAY out of spec. On the first, the backlash had also loosened up to the point where there was about 12 thousandths, when factory spec allows for 4-7. This on a diff with maybe 20,000 miles on it, and that was supposedly rebuilt with all new bearings and whatnot.

Much better road driving with the spool instead of one axle. With one axle the rig will drive all over the place with the throttle (cause the rear push comes from one side) With a spool the rig will drive as straight as a die, it will actually driver straighter than an open diff. Just got to put up with the chirping around corners.

Sam

Yes but if you have to do road driving on big tyres (37's) and a heavy rig it would be really hard on the axles.

Yes but if you have to do road driving on big tyres (37's) and a heavy rig it would be really hard on the axles.

Not on a 35spline D60 it wouldnt. :D

Sam

If Bill Davis set up that diff, then that is the second within a few weeks I have heard/seen prematurely wearing and getting WAY out of spec. On the first, the backlash had also loosened up to the point where there was about 12 thousandths, when factory spec allows for 4-7. This on a diff with maybe 20,000 miles on it, and that was supposedly rebuilt with all new bearings and whatnot.
No it wasn't Bill....
I'm purposely gonna just shut up on this as both guys who could've done it are friends, so no sense going their...

TomW

Hey Tom,
I know who set up that diff,
I do know for a fact though that we set the backlash in the 4-7 range, as I came back another day to reajust it as i couldn't find the propper spec for it.
PM me with your # we need to talk

Without a slipper pad those 4.75's are just a ticking timebomb. It probably just pulled itself apart like they all do. Hell the ring and pinion look like something for an Austin Healey Sprite when they are cut for 4.75.

But I am just some guy on PBB do not believe what I say.

Hey Tom,
I know who set up that diff,
I do know for a fact though that we set the backlash in the 4-7 range, as I came back another day to reajust it as i couldn't find the propper spec for it.
PM me with your # we need to talk

Hey, I talked to you Sunday, I'll talk to keith and see if he can tell me how it failed... at any rate, this wasn't about you... it was about my diff and upgrading :D talk to ya later!

TomW

Without a slipper pad those 4.75's are just a ticking timebomb. It probably just pulled itself apart like they all do. Hell the ring and pinion look like something for an Austin Healey Sprite when they are cut for 4.75.

But I am just some guy on PBB do not believe what I say.So what is a slipper pad, the spacer, that you'd use if you put say series gears in a coiler
diff?

TomW

Hey, I talked to you Sunday, I'll talk to keith and see if he can tell me how it failed... at any rate, this wasn't about you... it was about my diff and upgrading :D talk to ya later!

TomW

Hey, I talked to keith, I guess you did also, so we are all straight on that front I guess.... I'm still waiting for parts.. so I'll live precariuosly via others
till then :)

TomW

So what is a slipper pad, the spacer, that you'd use if you put say series gears in a coiler
diff?

TomW

No a slipper pad would be mounted inside the housing next to the ring gear. It helps keep the ring gear from deflecting away from the pinion shaft. Made of some alloy like brass that will suit its purpose. Its old school but could keep your toylike 4.75 gears in one piece.

Jim Pendleton