I have a question that I dont think has been addressed completely. What I have in mind is a strength comparison of a warn inner and outer dana 44 axle with ctm's joints versus a stock dana 60 staft and spicer 1480 ujoint in terms of foot pounds of torque the shafts could stand before failure, given they are the same length relative , which is stronger? The test would need to be conducted by a non biased individual and have a series of at least 5 sets to compare to.

1) warns / ctm

2 stock 60 / spicer

Depends if the d-60 is running 35 spline stubshaft.

One HUGE factor is going to be the age / condition of the "stock" parts.

A great many metal failures arise from stress raisers that begin as tiny surface corrosion, knicks, grinding marks, etc.

Given that the type of d60 we favour is generally from a vehicle at least 20 years old, and not likely to be in pristine condition, to say nothing of the improvement in metal alloying and manufacturing in the last 20-30 years, I would venture that if you compared new warn Alloy's to 1975 junkyard pieces, the older stuff wouldn't stand a chance.

Thousands with d60's will argue like hell with me.

On the other hand, we have to decide if your destruction test should be onle one immediate Huge overload from brand new, or should we apply several thousand fatigue cycles, of varying intensity, to simulate what a shafts life is more like.

And so on...

Not to mention, finding someone with the finances, equipment, expertise, and interest to do the testing.

good luck, and I look forward to the results.

Don't forget to test "necked down" vs non too:flipoff2:

(great question tho)

I have the majority of the pieces , all of which are new ( including the 60 shafts ) . The first would be the inital one time failure , both shafts coming as they would in the stock configuration 44 31/19 spl. and the 60 being 35 inner 30 outer , if the 60 breaks before the 44 then I would put a new complete 60 shaft in w/ a new non stressed u joint w/ a 35 spline 70 outer and compare against the tested 44. My bets are that the upgraded 44 shaft will hold a one time load more than the stock 60 shaft, but only a test will show if so.:smokin:

I'd LOVE to see the results of this test!

so would i, but ya know the saying theres no replacement for displacement... size, allthough material also, plays a big role in strength.... imho

I can test them if you have the parts.

Goat 1 PM me we need to talk . Or email @ gearman73@msn.com thanks chris:D :D :D :D :D :) :) :)

The bigest problem is in the gears on 44?

OK - If we're serious about this, how about this:

1) A collection / donation thing to collect enough money to buy some parts to get a reasonably scientific or statistically relevant number of results (it would SUCK to do one test, get a fluke result, and send us all off in the wrong direction)

2) Let me know if you would like some help with or a review of the test plan. I do some Test and Eval work professionally (aircraft equipment) and have some experience.

No replacement for displacement??? That always makes me laugh...it's so old school low tech myth based. Ever seen an f1 car, or a 700 HP rally car? Same is true in most things....and besides...materials don't have strength...shapes have strength:flipoff2: (witness aircraft and spacecraft construction)

Originally posted by Abba
The bigest problem is in the gears on 44?


I am attempting to address that problem , you dont by any chance know someone with a gleason gear cutter ? :roxy: :roxy: :roxy: :smokin:

Over on the D90-list there was a bunch of cone head E-types that did a comparo' on 4140, 4340, 300M and Hy-Tuff (forget the #'s..EN26?). They compared relative strength vs. root diameter, and then looked at fatigue and shear load ratings for given diameter. In a nutshell, the non-destructive analysis (i.e. back of the envelope calc's and assumption/basis) showed that a 1.24" diameter (24-spline) axle made from 300M could handle up to 92% of the same loads as a 1.5" diameter stock axle (varying stock alloys). A 30 spline 1.3" (actually 1.28") made from 4340 was very close in relative strength to the larger diameter 1.5" stock (again varying alloy?s) axle. This was comparing FF rear axle strengths...I think destructive testing is the only real way to see what's gonna' happen when you put a yoke, u-joint, angles, and other variables in the equation.

I'll see if I can dig up the posts on the topic. Good stuff.

I just got the phone with someone who shall remain anonymouse. :D

He thinks the CTM joint is most likely stronger than the stock D60 joint. The body is thicker on the CTM joint, and the posts are the same size (but the CTM is made of a FAR superior material). As for the axle shafts, (we'll call him "Frank" :D ) "Frank" thinks that the Warn shafts will be VERY close in strength to the stock Spicer 60 stuff. "Frank" claims the dana stuff is made of crap material, and is only surface hardened. While the Warn shafts are smaller, "Frank" thinks they will easily give the Spicer stuff a run for their money. ;)

I never ran CTM joints (so this is kinda useless info), but I busted 2 outer warn D44 axles and 1 inner. The splines twisted on one outer, the other two ripped the ears off (prob caused by u-joint grenading) I don't have all that many runs on my D60, but I have yet to break the stock axles with fresh spicer joints. I bet the warn 44 axles rip the ears off just before the stock D60 stuff busts.

this is crazy talk!!

the real question is "can the 44 be made as strong as the 60" right?

i say no way. one of the local guys and i have wheeled together for 10 years or so. both trucks weigh in at a close 4700lbs. he has a much bigger right foot than i do. runs 40 inch tires, i run 35 bogs. i have wasted 1 inner, 1 outer Warn shafts. 1 wasted outer do to a broken ujoint. and countless stock type u joints. (i have only had the Warns for 3 years) he has never had one problem with his 60.
there are many others that have also broken pinions, ring gears, knuckles etc. but some with the 60's have broken outers but not many.
my point is your "never" going to make a 44 as strong as a 60!

but i too would like to see a test like the one Warn did when there shafts came out between a stock 60 35 spline outer and CTM and Warns. i think the 60 would blow it away. big time. especially when the wheels are turned.

steelman

[QUOTE]Originally posted by steelman
[B]this is crazy talk!!

the real question is "can the 44 be made as strong as the 60" right?



Right now we are going to address the axleshaft/ujoint combo to see which is the strongest! But since you let the cat out of the bag we'll address that as soon as we prove this test!




i say no way. one of the local guys and i have wheeled together for 10 years or so. both trucks weigh in at a close 4700lbs. he has a much bigger right foot than i do. runs 40 inch tires, i run 35 bogs. i have wasted 1 inner, 1 outer Warn shafts. 1 wasted outer do to a broken ujoint. and countless stock type u joints. (i have only had the Warns for 3 years) he has never had one problem with his 60.


this is what we are going to lay to rest for all to see , and move onto the ring and opinion



there are many others that have also broken pinions, ring gears, knuckles etc. but some with the 60's have broken outers but not many.
my point is your "never" going to make a 44 as strong as a 60!



never say never anything can be done!



but i too would like to see a test like the one Warn did when there shafts came out between a stock 60 35 spline outer and CTM and Warns. i think the 60 would blow it away. big time. especially when the wheels are turned.


do you have any technical data to support your claim? I didnt think so I dont either but we will have soon , then you can bury that with and old addage that went there is no replacement for displacement I agree with billavista

steelman


:roxy: :roxy: :roxy: :roxy: :roxy:

Nasvik has broken quite a few of the Warn 44 shafts with his 4 banger TJ so I put little faith in the warn shafts. The OD of the yoke on a 44 is about 3.250 and the 60 is 4.125 so whatever that is worth.

66cjdean

How many has he broken or is he running the CTM joints its the ujoint I bet that is causing the problem . Every guy I know that has the warns has broken them WHY the ujoint. Not one person I know has broken the warns without breaking the u joint also :smokin:

This would be a really interesting test. I say we get some money together and test this and see.

If you were testing rears this would be just math. With the U joints it gets interesting.

As Doug said the eggheads say that hy-tuff 1.24 24 splines are approximately EQUAL (within 10%) to 1.5in 35spline stockers.

I also believe that the main advantage of the hy-tuff is its ability to resist fatiugue where as stock axles are made of basically crap.

Not sure what warn uses but that is a good starting point to base the analysis on. You really need to talk to someone who knows metalurgy to see how they stack up.

The best question I heard is has ANYONE broken a warn shaft without taking out a U-joint or locker or gears first. This is a key point, because if no one has then all the failures are in abnormal situations.

In rovers (pretty much all I know) you can run basically indestructable h-tuff inners BUT as soon as you toast a cv and it unloads the inner's splines strip. So whats the point to the spendy inners when the cv is the weak link. In a D44 with warns I am guessing the U joint is the same way.

The CTMs seem to address the U joint as the weak link concern.

Ron

PS now all this material versus size leads me to ask . . . why not 35 spline hy-tuff axles and D60 size CTMs. Of course thats not the point :)

Originally posted by techguru73
Every guy I know that has the warns has broken them WHY the ujoint.

Every warn I've broke was due to a broken ujoint. FWIW

** edit - whoops, this is Lance. :p

this is what I am thinking , anyone else?:smokin: :smokin:

A. Every warn shaft I have seen broke was due to the joint.

b. oem shafts ARE made of crap. I have resplined enough of them to know. They ARE surface hardened, Not thru. exception, kinda: The last pair I resplined were way , I'll say "tougher" when resplining. Had to sharpen the cutter way more times than normal???

c. I personally feel ujoint aside- warn alloys will be roughly the same in torque strength to failure as oem 35 spliners.

I'd love to see this happen. If money is a factor, who wants to approach a magazine for $$ or parts. They get handouts all the time. Anybody know anybody??

ive broke 5 ujoints this year, no hubs, and took at least the inner axle with it every time.... and this was with curries blanks, which are not as good as warns...... so even with weaker than warn shafts, the joint was still the weakest point.

i would think if you dumped enough money into your 44 you could make it as strong or stronger (with the exception of the gears) than a 60... my piont is (if you dont have a 44 now) why spend all the money on a 44. just start with a 60 and spend your money on :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

Originally posted by redruM
i would think if you dumped enough money into your 44 you could make it as strong or stronger (with the exception of the gears) than a 60... my piont is (if you dont have a 44 now) why spend all the money on a 44. just start with a 60 and spend your money on :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

Heavy-ass 60s are fine for rock crawling, but keeping the weight down is almost as important as strength when you're in the mud or you'll just sit there and dig your way to China.

IMHO, that's why.

Jake

OK folks, lots of opinions, and some good anecdotal evidence coming in.

What we really need is to nail down some data in at least a pseudo-scientific manner.

All the "I wheel this, and my buddy wheels that, and I've never broken and he has" stories are unfortunately going to prove nothing.

I'm going to work with techguru73 to develop a test plan based loosely on a military air worthiness test plan.

We likely won't be able to test every hypothesis or scenario we would like, nor even eliminate every variable, so anecdotal evidence is still of value, but the more explicit the better. So keep the facts on 44 breaks coming in. What I would like to know of those with FIRST HAND break experience is:

What broke, and what broke with it.
Type and age of U-joint.
Age / mielage on the axle parts and condition (especially surface corrosion or homebrew mods like using a grinder to clearance for snaprings)
Torque and gearing
Whether wheels were turned (and how much) or straight
Whether in reverse or forwards
A description of the situation, particularly if there was wheelhop, jumping, wedged wheels, or completely outrageous use of throttle
And finally, and this is VERY important...whether the broken parts (the surfaces that were once joined) appear grainy or smooth with "beach marks" (almost like rings in a tree trunk)

yea - it's a lot to ask, and not everybody's got a log of all the info, but every bit helps.

Not as kewl as saying "I fawking grenaded it baby" but the search for the truth is complicated and difficult.

I bet one goat the d44 wins with CTM joints!!

Anyone got engineering contacts at Warn? They did a slew of testing on shafts and u-joints a year or two ago, all written up in one of the rags. Destructively tested their shafts, OEM shafts and various U-joints under torsion.

Only thing they missed is the Dana 60 in the mix.

Anyone remember the magazine? Let's get that editor to update the story.


Rick
CJ7 - 60 rr, 609 front
CJ2A - 44's F+R that need all the help they can get

hey Billavista, should we PM you the 44 breakage info?

In All this talk of axle /u-joint strength ..D60 vs.44 etc. no one has mentioned the probability that the housings might play a role in the failures.... we all know someone who had a D44 u-joint let go and popped the ball joints out of their sockets...... was iit the u-joint that broke the housing or the housing(flex) that broke the u-joint?
Maybe this is why some axle shafts perform better in the testing machine than others? When you remove the axleshaft from it's natural working environment and put it in a giant (likely carefully machined...) fixture you cannot duplicate the Knuckle /tube flex etc. that you will get from a Dana 44...
The 60 will (most likely) due to it's larger material size, flex less
Maybe this plays a role?........ I don't know

Just thougth it needed bringing up....


ps.. personally I run a D 60 front.....

Originally posted by CRO
In All this talk of axle /u-joint strength ..D60 vs.44 etc. no one has mentioned the probability that the housings might play a role in the failures.... we all know someone who had a D44 u-joint let go and popped the ball joints out of their sockets...... was iit the u-joint that broke the housing or the housing(flex) that broke the u-joint?
Maybe this is why some axle shafts perform better in the testing machine than others? When you remove the axleshaft from it's natural working environment and put it in a giant (likely carefully machined...) fixture you cannot duplicate the Knuckle /tube flex etc. that you will get from a Dana 44...
The 60 will (most likely) due to it's larger material size, flex less
Maybe this plays a role?........ I don't know

Just thougth it needed bringing up....


ps.. personally I run a D 60 front.....






Cro...
All opinions are welcome here but just a few things that I would like to metion about the 44 and 60 housings . Most front Dana 44 axles that I have delt with ( alot ) had wall thicknesses od .375 . I have also had a ton of experience with the 60's as well all front housings had .500 wall thicknesses , what we are talking about is a total difference of only and 1/8" . I doubt that housing flex had anything to do with the reason that the u joint failed . The inner knuckles on both are only induction hardened ,if someone could through harden them that is all that would be needed to strenghen the 44 to that of the 60, I don't know why that hadent been addressed earlier( years ago ) .I am going to work with bill on this project as well as others. I would like to prove scientifically one way or the other as to which is the "strongest". All opinions as bill stated are welcome , anyone willing to donate anything during the test from knowledge , funds , parts etc are welcome to do so, all will be given credit for there donations. There isnt anyone who I can think of that wouldnt want to know this info , to lay the groundwork for tons for to come ,and lay some miths to rest. We will get to the bottom of this . Anyone with questions can email myself or bill if he wants to do so i'll let that be up to him. Good luck to all , time will tell which is the strongest od the 2

chris:smokin: :smokin:

I don't care really which one is stronger, but i know that i will not trade my 60 for a 44, or ever invest money in one. And it will not be long untill they make warn shafts and CTM joints for a 60, then we will see who gets the last laugh.

And and you don't have to worry about breaking stuff you usually don't have spares of. Like knuckes. (unless you are welder boy hahahah).

Just my opinion.

Ian-

Last laugh...
Yep you bet when we prove that you will be able to make a dana 44 as strong as a stock 60 , with half the weight ,yea someones going to have a last laugh I wonder who.. If you dont care thats fine but there are probably thousands that do , heck you can get a dana 44 for a dime a dozen. You can buy parts at any part store in america to. :smokin: :roxy:

you don't need auto parts stores to stock stuff if it doesn't break.:flipoff2: :D

I agree with what you are saying, but in the end, after modification is done to both the 60 will win.

what if you find a REV cut 60 in Pick and Pull and it's the same price as the REV cut 44 witch one do I buy,:question:

Oh yeah guess what they just had A COMPLETE REV 60 front in pick and pull the other day
and it aint there anymore!!!! so dont ask!!

HEHEHEHEHEHE



true story!!!


Adam:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Any data you have can be PM'd to me or emailed to samfans@sprint.ca

Thanks

And remember this isn't a pissing contest or a "mine is bigger" match, it's an attempt a reasonably serious investigation of the facts. If you're not interested in the results, or are interested only in defending to the death your own decisions or parts...back to the chit chat with ya:flipoff2:

I have no vested interest really, as I have neither a 44 or 60, only a homebrew hybrid. Well except a borderline pathalogical hatred of myth. legend, rumour, and plain old bullshit.....oh, ok, I like to stir the pot a bit too:p

Let's try to cooperate and pool resources and expertise to find some stuff out.

I think the point about the housings deserves thought, but will likely be an "assumed equal" variable as it is relatively easy to sleeve a housing or build a truss to level the field here....but good thought....keep them coming

Adam, you are a FAWKER!!!!! sell me that 60!!!! I WANT I WANT I WANT, oh well we both know I no get that from you right... Anyway, I am getting my new rig going here soon, we gotta go for a run in the SNOW!!!!

BTW, as for some shafts, I have some spare 44 shafts that I can't use, so I will donate them to you for some testing if you want, just let me know wher to send them.

Dimitri

Originally posted by Adam Ant
what if you find a REV cut 60 in Pick and Pull and it's the same price as the REV cut 44 witch one do I buy,:question:

Oh yeah guess what they just had A COMPLETE REV 60 front in pick and pull the other day
and it aint there anymore!!!! so dont ask!!

HEHEHEHEHEHE



true story!!!


Adam:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

That Rocks.

Every time i hear of someone finding one of those at a PnP and getting it for like one bill, i find hope that one day i will find one for that price. But for now the one i payed 600 for is good enough for me.

But like Flatty said if you don't find a use for it you can always give it to me.

Ian-

I almost had a heart attack!!!

F250 crew cab 4wd Truck King pin front REV 60 front Complete from the Tie rod to Locking hubs !!!


it was a heavy son of a biatch and it was completly attached
u bolts and all steering

Pulled it with 2 chanel locks Small and Large and used a pinion gear from a 14 bolt as a hammer!!! and Nothing Else

we did it though!!!!


:flipoff2: :flipoff2:

my back is still killing me !!

Adam,

Originally posted by techguru73
Last laugh...
Yep you bet when we prove that you will be able to make a dana 44 as strong as a stock 60 , with half the weight ,yea someones going to have a last laugh I wonder who.. If you dont care thats fine but there are probably thousands that do , heck you can get a dana 44 for a dime a dozen. You can buy parts at any part store in america to. :smokin: :roxy: It sounds personal? what a joke.

Originally posted by Adam Ant
I almost had a heart attack!!!

F250 crew cab 4wd Truck King pin front REV 60 front Complete from the Tie rod to Locking hubs !!!


it was a heavy son of a biatch and it was completly attached
u bolts and all steering

Pulled it with 2 chanel locks Small and Large and used a pinion gear from a 14 bolt as a hammer!!! and Nothing Else

we did it though!!!!


:flipoff2: :flipoff2:

my back is still killing me !!

Adam,


:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

ok for all the knuckle heads ...yes we all understand that a 60 will always be bigger than a 44 and there for have more stock strengh and buildup potential. i think that the point here is to determain if a 44 can achieve near 60 strength. that way people can upgrade there 44 for alot less than the cost of a 60.



i have a set of inner 35 spline 60 axles that i can contribute to destruction testing. and if this is really gonna happen. I.E. tech boy or drew can build or has access to the machane then i can get a set of 35 spline outers.

tech....did you call sandy on the gleason gear deal? i know he can set ya up.


how do you think my 40 spline 300m axles with my 1 1/2 ton ctm joints will fair in this test? :D:D

Very interesting debate. Been having it "off-line" with a friend for the past week or so. We are at the same point. We both have the D44 fronts built about as far as you can. He has some really trick steering arms, tie rod behind the axle, I have the WARN shafts he doesn't. We both have to get what the other one has to be equal. We have been debating, as you are trying to prove scientifically, whether the 44 alloy shafts and ujoints will cut it or not, comapared to the stock 60 stuff.

I've broken the 44 several times. Its always been while playing in the snow, wheels turned right foot flexed :D Since the addition of the WARN shafts it's been way better but, I still get a joint now and then. So will the CTM's "cure" the problem? Maybe, then you are just moving the weak link elsewhere. R&P probably, which with the advent of the alloy gears... It just keeps moving around. Kind of like Russian Roulette. You never know where it's going to "go off".

Now for a few comments. What are your intented applications for the "super 44"??? IMO you can dress up a pig to take to the dance, but she still is a pig. If you are talking a 44 with tires limited to say 38's then the "supper 44" may be the way to go. Anything beyond 38's and the 44 is not going to get it, again my .02. It's been hinted at a few times in this thread already. You can get the alloy shafts and joints, and there is talk of alloy R&P's but what about the housings? More importantly the knuckle and the ball joints issue. Not to mention the spindles, wheel bearings and size of brakes. These are not up to the stress of supporting 39"+ rubber which alot of people are converting to, and border line with the 38's.

You have to define intended usage. The 44 as an overall entity has limits, as does the 60. I understand and agree with the big weight disadvantage of the 60, but I think you can't overlook the huge advantage of the entire package... King pins, Big R&P, 35 spline shafts, BIG wheel bearings and spindles. BIG brakes, etc. Besides alloy shafts and joints are already becoming available and with these setup in a 60, the "super 44" is just a pig in a dress. The only advantage the supper 44 has over a super 60 is weight, ground clearance can be had with a shave.

Keep up the good work, many will benefit from it. I have the 60 laying in the shop waiting to be gone through. This is interesting, but mine gets a 60.

Bob,

I see your points, but we're not talking about trying to find or prove the "ultimate" here...cause that would be neither...not by a loooong shot.

And I don't think we're trying to prove a dressed up 44 is the equal of a dressed up 60 either, we're talking the very specific case of dressed up 44 vs stock 60. And for very good reason...those are probably 2 of the most common axles used.

Also, point about the other 60 factors (spindles, brakes etc..) is good, but again not our purpose....this is not just another "which is a better choice" thread. it's about having accurate data for the factors debated in the "which is the best choice" thread, there's a subtle but important difference.

And as far as what the 44 brings, it's more than just weight. yes, you can shave a 60, but you can also shave a 44.

Also, real world factors are very important, like the price and availability of RR 44 vs RR60, and the time and $$ already invested.

For example, say i have a "semi built" RRD44 front, complete with expensive beadlocks for the bolt pattern, all new bearings and seals, new-ish brakes, new gears and a locker I'm happy with, and a trick custom steering setup...plus my buds all use the same bolt pattern. Things have been good for me with 35's, but when I stepped up to 38's, I began to break shafts, but always with a u-joint letting go.

Now, the "mine is always bigger than yours" crowd will just yammer on about "get a 60", and damn the cost, hard to find, huge weight and worse clearance. They also have an "unproven" but likely true argument about shaft / joint strength....UNTIL NOW and the CTM.

What if we could scientifically (kinda) prove that the Warn/CTM 44 combo exhibited 95, 100, or even 110% the strength of the stock 60 shaft/joint combo...Hmmm.

Now I can build / upgrade my 44, and have superior strength (in my problem area), less weight, better clearance, and if we're comparing to a FR D60, better driveshaft clearance and driveling angles, while retaining much of my investment.

To use your "pig in a dress” metaphor, I may be bringing a pig in a dress, but the guy bringing a stock FR D60 with junkyard shafts is just bringing a pig!

So, one last time for everyone, this IS NOT a 44 vs 60 thing it's search for truth / info. If anyone can't see that, or the logic in why anyone would care, I give up trying to convince you.

If you have info to share, please do.

hey guys come on now. enough with the pig talk. pigs need lovin' too:flipoff2:

i think this will be valuable info.... i have a broken joint and shaft in my jeep right now, ill check it out when i pull it out to replace... it will be replaced with warn and ctm.....


the reason i didnt just go out and buy or build a 60... many! when i get new axles front and rear they are gonna have to be wider to fit my coilovers! :flipoff2: so i cant just get the front one, and on top of that my bolt pattern would be different... so i need 2 60's, coilovers, links, wheels, tires, and while im at it ill be doing a tranny / tcase change also.... once i have everything piled up in the garage.... then ill tear apart and rebuild....


so in an attempt to have a "better" season without AS much breakage i am hoping that these shafts and joints help me out a little..... plus i can sell this 9 for a good price when ready.....

Yeah Bob and I have been chatting about this for a while now :D so here's my $.02 FWIW.

Originally posted by BillaVista
And I don't think we're trying to prove a dressed up 44 is the equal of a dressed up 60 either, we're talking the very specific case of dressed up 44 vs stock 60. And for very good reason...those are probably 2 of the most common axles used.

I think you missed Bob's point because he's talking specifically about a dressed up 44 vs. a stock 60.

Also, point about the other 60 factors (spindles, brakes etc..) is good, but again not our purpose....this is not just another "which is a better choice" thread. it's about having accurate data for the factors debated in the "which is the best choice" thread, there's a subtle but important difference.

True there's always the unique intended use argument and I'm anxious to see the shaft strength comparison regardless of how the thing gets used. Just don't overlook the other 44 limitations because they can be a big issue in other applications.

Also, real world factors are very important, like the price and availability of RR 44 vs RR60, and the time and $$ already invested.

Ahh... this is the real kicker that seems to be getting people hung up on these super 44's. There are two situations here... the first being someone who is looking for a new axle and the second being someone who already has a lot invested in their axle and needs more strength (you probably fall in this group Bill). Lets take a look at these and, for the puprpose of this discussion lets assume the intended tire size is 38" or greater:

1) In this case you're ready for an axle upgrade and are deciding between the super 44 approach or just getting a 60. Lets look at the cost. Boneyard 44 = $63, CTM u-joints = $300, and alloy shafts = $700. Now, look around and you should be able to find a stock D60 for anywhere from $800 to $1200.

Both are open diffed, both likely have the wrong gears, both have arguably the same strength axle shafts, and both cost the same amount of money. Both axles are exactly the same EXCEPT that the 60 has better brakes, bearings, r&p, and ball joints (or even better kingpin) all for what cost? Weight and ground clearance... BUT you could shave the 60 if you like and that weight is simply because of the beefier construction. Throw alloy gears in the 44 and you definitely just spent more than a 60 and you STILL have the cheesey outers to live with.

This situation, IMO, makes no sense for someone to build the 44 (overall, I'm not saying there isn't some special application where the 44 would still be better likely focusing on the weight issue).

2) This situation is a really tough call if you're in the 38" tire range. You're happy with your axle and probably have already purchased the $$$ alloy shafts so you're just looking for a little more strength and you're good to go. Basically you're right at the upper limit of that 44 but you have a lot of $$ in it that you won't get back if you sell it. Tough call and IMO this comes down to personal preference and application. Anything larger than the 38" range of tires and IMO you're still better off putting the "upgrade" cashola into the D60 fund. Not necessarily just for that last bit of strength, but for the other D60 benefits that make it more suitable to that size tire.

the guy bringing a stock FR D60 with junkyard shafts is just bringing a pig!

I'll take the pig :D

So, one last time for everyone, this IS NOT a 44 vs 60 thing it's search for truth / info. If anyone can't see that, or the logic in why anyone would care, I give up trying to convince you.

Well sure it's a 44 vs. 60 thing. We're focusing on the axle shafts right now, but sooner or later you're going to have to put them in something right? Personally I think the ONLY reason there's anything to discuss here at all is simply because the cost of these super 44's is finally making a D60 look not only financially attractive, but more bang for the buck.

Oh...so it's YOU!

Welcome to the rumble Eric:flipoff2:
I think you missed Bob's point because he's talking specifically about a dressed up 44 vs. a stock 60.

Ok, then I still say the DU44 gibes the stock 60 at least a better run for it's money than people assume, and I think in the shaft / joint area, I bet it kicks butt.

Now, as we continue the lively debate...we should get some other things clear. Are we striclty comparing RR to RR and FR to FR axles?

This of course has issues because of the difference in the gears as well as, if we simply MUST consider the "whole package" :p , you can't ignore the benefits of the RR. and that brings up the BIG problem (for most of us, in real world terms - not debate on paper terms) of the RR D60 - namely price and availability.

Also, as to the "other" D60 advantages...bigger bearings....etc. THESE are exactly the same kind of things we really need some kind of data on to continue to have an informed debate. Yes, in theory we can say a bigger bearing is "stronger" and prob doesn;t run as hot etc...but is this true in any meaningful way? Anyone ever experience a bearing failure in a 44 not related to maintenace, as a result of tire size, that they wouldn't have in a 60?? Until you can answer that question...quit padding your d60 advantages with fluff like "bigger bearings":)


Well sure it's a 44 vs. 60 thing. We're focusing on the axle shafts right now, but sooner or later you're going to have to put them in something right?

Ok, but, again, all I think we're trying to achieve here is some data so that we can in the future have the 44 v 60 debate with some accuracy. Depending on what is discovered, it can significantly change the debate...not answer it once and for all....but change it. If ya just gotta have the bigger bearings....nothing's going to satisfy you but a 60:flipoff2: Just hope it isn;t a cheesy low pinion 60...that's like an ugly pig;)

As it is, a lot of times we have the debate, people use for arguments stuff based on some old timer feelings stuff....you know, like the way a LOT of people still think hollow is stronger tha solid and Grade 5 stronger than Grade 8 in shear :rasta:

:eek:

please let me know if you figure this one out, I'm going to run dana44's with 38 inch swamper sx's both ends of a fullsize, yes I may get a bit of breakage, but I get ultimate ground clearance and light weight. 60's here are minimum $1000 and usually need the brakes redone. size of brakes isn't important as I will never be going fast so they won't overheat, line pressure should solve the power problem.

calls a 60 expensive then quotes unobtainium made parts
calls 60 parts rare at a parts store (I never had a problem finding stuff off the shelf) then wants to replace everything with custom one off :confused:
simple economics, 60 cant be beat for the price
RR 60s arent rare they are still being manufactured, now the aftermarket has kicked in too
ground clearance? run BIGGER TIRES. its a 60 it can take it.
this isnt an area worth thinkin about, I always here jeepers talking about it though

Thought it wasn't 'sposed to turn into a 44 vs 60 thing. :rolleyes:

Let's get back to sourcing test apparatus, location and designing the experiment.

I'd contribute junkyard parts. Got 44 shafts, necked down 60 and 30 spline outer end at my disposal that I'd consider donating to the cause.

Rick

Bill and others ...WOW.......
We are getting somewhere in a hurry now . I appreciate every ones views , again though I can't stress enought that this threads intended purpose is to determine whether or NOT the warn 4340 induction hardened dana 44 shafts with the CTM's 300m u joint is less than , equal to , or greather than the strength of a stock 60 axleshaft. Period! I am not biased towards either! I have had standard and reverse rotation 60's and the same with 44's. I have rebuilt several complete axles of each , given you find a decent 60 in most parts of the country they are in more than used shape they will run you at least a 1000.00 or more, a 44 in the same shape will run usually around 50.00. When you tear both apart and completely replace everthing in them the dana 44 will still cost less that the 60 no way around it. I know that some are happy running the military cucv take outs that are in great shape , some people have conections that can get reduced prices on parts to remedy this problem ,but for the average joe (especially a person that already has a 44 ) it still makes more sense to stay with what you have. I personally am going to run 39" boggers on my 44 , but my toyota only weighs around 2800 lbs and is about 55/45 weight biased. The purpose is that for people that have a 44 or cant afford to buy a 60 at one time and upgrade it , this test will prove one way or the other that
it may be possible where it once wasn't with real data that a 44 can (axleshafts for now) be equal to a 60.

CAMO ...
No I havent had time yet to contact sandy , but I am going to hopefully he can make my new gearsets and when we are through with this test we can move onto the R&P strengh concerns and have another hot topic of conversation

TO ALL......

I spoke with goat1 and he said that we could test this on a torsion bar tester that he has access to. Is this the type of machine we need for the test. Goat1 said it would go to 10,000 ft. lbs. .How do you test the machine for accuray or calibrate it? Anyone else have any better suggestions for testing procedures. We need a plan of some sort to follow. I am letting bill do the writting as he does a much better job than I do.

TO ALL......

I appreciate the contrabutions some are willing to make ,for this test to happen. Anyone have inside or very good conections with warn to see if they would like to be part of this. Dores anyone know jack personally? I only know him from purchasing a set of his joints. Maybe he would be interested in donating a pair of his joints for the test , if not ill buy another set. I want this to be good info for both sides of the dana line, and for others to have access to years down the road.I want to do it right.


thanks chris:D :D :D :D :D :D

Hey, i bet my avalible super birf could beat a dana 60 :flipoff2:

Originally posted by BillaVista
Bob,


I see your points, but we're not talking about trying to find or prove the "ultimate" here...cause that would be neither...not by a loooong shot.
Agreed, I understand what you are after. A shaft and joint comparison.

And I don't think we're trying to prove a dressed up 44 is the equal of a dressed up 60 either, we're talking the very specific case of dressed up 44 vs stock 60. And for very good reason...those are probably 2 of the most common axles used.
Right and thats where I'm at. I have both. Well minus the CTM's for the 44.

Also, point about the other 60 factors (spindles, brakes etc..) is good, but again not our purpose...
But it needs to be considered. You (we) should state an intended usage for the SD44.

Also, real world factors are very important, like the price and availability of RR 44 vs RR60, and the time and $$ already invested.
For example, say i have a "semi built" RRD44 front, complete with expensive beadlocks for the bolt pattern, all new bearings and seals, new-ish brakes, new gears and a locker I'm happy with, and a trick custom steering setup...plus my buds all use the same bolt pattern. Things have been good for me with 35's, but when I stepped up to 38's, I began to break shafts, but always with a u-joint letting go.
Hence the intended usage. I hear ya though, this is where I'm at... 38.5's and all the other things you mentioned, no bead locks though, yet!

What if we could scientifically (kinda) prove that the Warn/CTM 44 combo exhibited 95, 100, or even 110% the strength of the stock 60 shaft/joint combo...Hmmm.
Now I can build / upgrade my 44, and have superior strength (in my problem area), less weight, better clearance, and if we're comparing to a FR D60, better driveshaft clearance and driveling angles, while retaining much of my investment.
But where does it end? You keep throwing money at it??? To what point??? That's where I am now. Being broke sucks... in both applications of the word.

To use your "pig in a dress” metaphor, I may be bringing a pig in a dress, but the guy bringing a stock FR D60 with junkyard shafts is just bringing a pig!
If you have info to share, please do.

You like that one eh? :D I'm all for your study. Eric has me "talked" into the 60 but I'm interested in your findings. The kids will need a toy soon and the 44 isn't going anywhere after it comes out of the Scrambler. I'm already to deep into it to ever get anything out of it...

I still think you have to identify intended usage of these SD44's. The shafts are an important part of the package, but they are only a part. IMO 38's and a light rig with moderate power is the limit.

Originally posted by Eric Ruhl
Yeah Bob and I have been chatting about this for a while now :D so here's my $.02 FWIW.

Hey what are you doing here??? Get back to work, theorising (sp?) doesn't get yours out of the garage. :flipoff2:


There are two situations here... the first being someone who is looking for a new axle and the second being someone who already has a lot invested in their axle and needs more strength (you probably fall in this group Bill). Lets take a look at these and, for the puprpose of this discussion lets assume the intended tire size is 38" or greater:

1) In this case you're ready for an axle upgrade and are deciding between the super 44 approach or just getting a 60. Lets look at the cost. Boneyard 44 = $63, CTM u-joints = $300, and alloy shafts = $700. Now, look around and you should be able to find a stock D60 for anywhere from $800 to $1200.

Both are open diffed, both likely have the wrong gears, both have arguably the same strength axle shafts, and both cost the same amount of money. Both axles are exactly the same EXCEPT that the 60 has better brakes, bearings, r&p, and ball joints (or even better kingpin) all for what cost? Weight and ground clearance... BUT you could shave the 60 if you like and that weight is simply because of the beefier construction. Throw alloy gears in the 44 and you definitely just spent more than a 60 and you STILL have the cheesey outers to live with.

This situation, IMO, makes no sense for someone to build the 44 (overall, I'm not saying there isn't some special application where the 44 would still be better likely focusing on the weight issue).
You forgot one MAJOR point. Most of the used 60's will have alot better gearing than a used 44. You have to remember these were in 1 ton apps with big GVRW's and pathetic smogged out ehgines. BINGO on the cost analogy.

2) This situation is a really tough call if you're in the 38" tire range. You're happy with your axle and probably have already purchased the $$$ alloy shafts so you're just looking for a little more strength and you're good to go. Basically you're right at the upper limit of that 44 but you have a lot of $$ in it that you won't get back if you sell it. Tough call and IMO this comes down to personal preference and application. Anything larger than the 38" range of tires and IMO you're still better off putting the "upgrade" cashola into the D60 fund. Not necessarily just for that last bit of strength, but for the other D60 benefits that make it more suitable to that size tire.
Intended usage...

I'll take the pig :D
Me too, the cost of the alloy R&P for the 44 buys the 35 spline outers for the 60.

Well sure it's a 44 vs. 60 thing. We're focusing on the axle shafts right now, but sooner or later you're going to have to put them in something right?
BINGO! I do see a "market" for the SD44 though.

now i may be crazy but i can get a d60 for $1000 bucks. i add some decent hubs $150 and some u jionts $50 tops. next i add on some high steer arms $200 per arm and they bolt right on no machining. so thats 1400 total.
now say yah buy the d44 for $250. add hubs say $100 bucks. now i add the ctm u jionts at $300 for the pair. now i buy a full set of inner and outer warn axle shafts for $575. now i spend another $200 on high steer arms. now im hoping this d44 has flat top knuckles and lets say they do so ill only add 100 for machining and tapping by a shop, sure yah could do it yourself, but most people dont. well that comes to $1525.
so the d44 costs more, of coarse the locker will be a bit more as well as the gears for the d60 so you are about even. why would yah spend the money on the d44 when yah can have a d60. and you know you are gonna brake the d44 shafts so buy the time you replace a few of them you could have had a d60 cheaper and its better, shit you may even be able to put 35 spline stubs in the d60 buy that time. only reason to go d44 over the d60 is if you dont have the cash up front and can only afford to throw a little money at the axle at a time. of coarse buy the time your done you coulda had a d60.
as for the 1 inch of ground clearance you will lose run a bigger tire, yah still wont break the d60 as much. and if weight is your issue, well pull some sheetmetal off for those bigger tires and yah will lighten it up

i agree with yjtj. however i do agree that if someone already has a d44 with gearing, locker, and hd shafts then the ctm's might be the way to go. the thing i wonder about is the lockouts. i seemed to break lockouts on my old dana44. it just seems to me that the lockouts will go when running the ctm's. this could be a good thing though because they are easy to change and if you buy two sets of hubs that have a waranty you have spares and when you break you take it back and get a new one.

i still will like to see the results of the test. it will be very interestng to see the outcome.

Interesting topic. I would most certainly be interested in the test results.

By the way...if I take stock 44 shaft and "re-heat" it...I'll gain something in strength, but how much? Has anyone done it before? I know that one guy is doing it with Toyota birfields and outcome is "indestructible" birfield (way stronger that stock one).


Thanks,

if two guys are going to get axles (1 a 44 and build it, the other a stock 60), the guy with the 60 will have the better deal, and the dude with the 44 is wasting his cash.

BUT.........most of us start with a 44, learn with it, break it, buy a locker, bigger tires, new rims, break it, replace with HD parts, break other things etc. so this is a on-going thing and the COST is spread out over months, hell, even years. this is the boat i am in. 31's to 33's to 35's to 38's on my Jimmy. breakage and exp. have both come, but i cant sell my 44 for anything, then have to spend 1000 or more for a 60, then replace all the "little things" like rotors, bearings etc. plus, my 8 lug 44 has been ground, so i can run ANY 8 lug rim (except for stupid ford 8X170mm), so i would rather keep my 44 and live with the thought of being profienct at changing axle shafts.

that is why the outcome of this test is important.

i wont deny the strength of a 60, i have seen them in action with big tires, big engines and HUGE right feet, all unscathed...cant say THAT for my 44, but if i could come "somewhat" close to that, i will be happy

:eek::eek::eek:

Originally posted by Lance
:eek::eek::eek:


lance you owe Me 20 bucks!!!!

Adam,

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22680


and Camo thought they would Last!


Adam,

the joint looks fine

but the Axle shafts dont look good
back to the drawing board WARN


Adam,

I guess that answers the question.:rolleyes: Although for all you D44 abusers out there, one thing that plays a definate impact on the life of a D44 is the carrier you choose to use. I have had great success running a powerlock in my D44 and 38" tires. Because the powerock is a limited slip it is much easier on the D44 than a locker. Dont get me wrong, yes the locker is much more agreesive and probably better on the rocks than a LS is. However a good axle is much better than a broken axle. I know I will catch some flack from all the detroit users out there but I am just speaking from experience. If you want to make the D44 stand up to the most abuse possible I believe it requires warn shafts, CTM joints, and a powerlock. Just my opinion so bash me if you want. Meantime I will be bashing the trails on my 38 sx's with a D44 and loving it.:) Bombs away!!!:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

Chad

Tire size is a big factor in axle strength.
I forget exactly how it goes and cannot find the info at this time.
D-30 up to 31" tire
D-44 up to 34" tire
D-60 up to 38" tire
after that Rockwells
Anyone have the numbers straight?
I would like to remember better.

damned newbie, its
D-30 33" tire
D-44 38" tire
D-60 44" tire
Rockwell Toploader 44"+

Hey Lance, Did you bind the 44 up pretty good to break the shaft. Or was it one of those"WHat the fawk it broke" kind of sistuations.

No thats not right.
A D-30 will not pull a 33 for long
And a D-44 won"t live with more than a 35
Damn dont make me spend all night going thru info, links, mags, etc.

well, i have seen a 44 stand up to 40" hawgs no problem, but he was busting hubs, drive shafts and motor mounts. the axle and u-joints held up no prob. btw this truck also had 3.73 gears, a very healthy 350 and a 4 speed tranny. he broke every thing except the front and rear axles.

http://www.4x4.ee/projects/big/axlesnap/index.html

One broken D44 axle...LockRight destroyed also and hub.

Originally posted by jr4x4ee
http://www.4x4.ee/projects/big/axlesnap/index.html

One broken D44 axle...LockRight destroyed also and hub. you shouldnt have painted those shafts thats what caused it to snap:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Underdog
No thats not right.
A D-30 will not pull a 33 for long
And a D-44 won"t live with more than a 35
Damn dont make me spend all night going thru info, links, mags, etc.



I think you are mistaken.....I have run 33 BFG's on my XJ for 3 years with no real problems. I run 36x14 TSL's on my Scout with no problems. Look up the links, mags or whatever.......there are a lot of people on here that run a hell of alot bigger then 35's on a Dana44 front end, and more doing so as we speak.

Lance, can you tell if the knuckle broke first, or did the yoke ends blow the knuckle apart as the tried to bypass each other?

Tech- I know Jack personally and can get a set of joints for the test. Just give them back when you are done so I can slap them in my 44.

Ok guys, here's what happened... I thought I'd post the pic and let you speculate as to what happened for a while. ;)

I was up on Iron Mountain (snow) and was getting ready to pull a stuck Ford Ranger out of a drift. I needed to get out of the ruts (VERY icy) so I could get around him to pull him out backwards. I was in 4hi, and put it in reverse and floored it with the wheels cranked all the way to the left. About 10 feet into it, SNAP KRACKLE POP! Wheel falls off. :D

Ok, upon inspection, it appears that the knuckle was the first thing to break. The knuckle had a rusted stress crack visible at the upper ball joint, right where it broke. This I know happened in Farmington when Kelly blew up Jesse's super joint. It actually bent the top of the knuckle.

So the knuckle exploded, and the axle broke into smitereens. However, the CTM DID NOT BREAK. A regular ujoint would have been in about 100 pieces.

Originally posted by Lance
the CTM DID NOT BREAK. A regular ujoint would have been in about 100 pieces.

Lance - is the joint completely re-usable? New caps or anything?

Paul

Now i know CTM has a lifetime warrenty, does warn on its axel shafts???

I'm most likely going to go with CTM u-joints and Moser axles (www.moserengineering.com) or ORD axles (www.offroaddesign.com)..... has anyone tried these? If so how do they compare with the Warns? I'm assuming they all basically boil down to being pretty close to the same if not identical....

ive heard of several mosers breaking.... i think 2 warns, seems for some reason warn holds together a little better

goat1 says the torsion bar tester is accurate to within + or- 5 lbs:D

Do it!!!

Lance, anyone with warn shafts:
Any twisting of the splines happening?? I broke a long side this weekend- ujoint exploded then ripped the ears off the inner and trashed the outer. Heres the kicker... my inner splines ARE twisted...I run flanges, not lockouts, the splines on the stub look fine. Anybody else have this problem?? The 60 shaving begins!!!

Originally posted by Underdog
No thats not right.
A D-30 will not pull a 33 for long
And a D-44 won"t live with more than a 35
Damn dont make me spend all night going thru info, links, mags, etc.
Newbie.. JEEZ... I must be lucky... Im running 35's on get this... a D30 with the 260 joint! :eek: :D Ive broken one u joint.. and that was on the street, in 2wd.. don't ask me how I did it... :D Never broken one wheelin though.. I do plan to upgrade to at least stock yj front shafts and the 5-760x joint for now. Eventually I plan a D44 upgrade.. but money doesnt permit right now. As far as going 60's, Id love to, but good luck finding a drivers drop 60 in my area!
Scott :grinpimp:<><

BillaV and TechGuru: You guys should definitely approach the mags with this test, or Warn and CTM. It would be perfect for a magazine article.

"Make your 44 60 tuff" OR "44 + Warn + CTM = 60"

I have no personal interest in which one is stronger, but i know a lot of people who would.

P.S. this reminds me of the old "hopped up" Small-Block vs. Big Block argument...

Originally posted by Aggro
Do it!!!

Lance, anyone with warn shafts:
Any twisting of the splines happening?? I broke a long side this weekend- ujoint exploded then ripped the ears off the inner and trashed the outer. Heres the kicker... my inner splines ARE twisted...I run flanges, not lockouts, the splines on the stub look fine. Anybody else have this problem?? The 60 shaving begins!!!

Agg, nope.... In fact I am still running my original long side (inner)Warn shaft. It's been in there for three years. No twisting.....

the real failure here was lances failure to replace a already broken knuckle.

when severly stressed the already broken knuckle exploded taking out the shaft with it.

CTM's RULE

Originally posted by camo
the real failure here was lances failure to replace a already broken knuckle.

when severly stressed the already broken knuckle exploded taking out the shaft with it.

CTM's RULE

Are you saying I was negligent? :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Lance


Are you saying I was negligent? :flipoff2:


lets just say that rig doesn't spent alot of time in the shop :flipoff2:

Originally posted by camo



lets just say that rig doesn't spent alot of time in the shop :flipoff2: i bet those were the ball joints that came in those knuckles what 6 years ago i have had to change mine every year now cause i find them getting some slop in them i think hy steer off the top hurts them a-lot faster

Originally posted by GearMan
i bet those were the ball joints that came in those knuckles what 6 years ago i have had to change mine every year now cause i find them getting some slop in them i think hy steer off the top hurts them a-lot faster

Okaaaaaaaaay!!! Im standing riiiiight heeeere! :flipoff2::flipoff2:

NO, they ain't the same flippin' ball joints, sheesh! I too have to replace them about once every year or so.... Fawkers! :flipoff2:

Bla Bla Bla

My 60 is still cooler than any 44 will ever be and that is all that matters

Hey Caz, you know a REAL 60:flipoff2: :flipoff2: , not one of those Gary Colman 1/2 pint d60's

Originally posted by Aggro
Do it!!!

Lance, anyone with warn shafts:
Any twisting of the splines happening?? I broke a long side this weekend- ujoint exploded then ripped the ears off the inner and trashed the outer. Heres the kicker... my inner splines ARE twisted...I run flanges, not lockouts, the splines on the stub look fine. Anybody else have this problem?? The 60 shaving begins!!!

Aggro.. I twisted one and brother in law twisted one. Both inner shafts, Both long side I think. They weren't the 44 shafts but the 30 upgrades.

Originally posted by Frosty4x
Bla Bla Bla

My 60 is still cooler than any 44 will ever be and that is all that matters

Hey Caz, you know a REAL 60:flipoff2: :flipoff2: , not one of those Gary Colman 1/2 pint d60's


For as much as you go wheelin anymore, you could probably swap down to a D30 and run 260x joints.:flipoff2:

Originally posted by H8monday



For as much as you go wheelin anymore, you could probably swap down to a D30 and run 260x joints.:flipoff2:

Hey now, those 60's look GREAT sitting in his driveway!!!! :laughing::laughing::laughing:

I came home today to find my dogs talking with the neighbor dog about this very subject. One of my dogs said that the 44 with the alloy shafts and CTMs are the way to go. Then my other dog said she'd rather get some 2.5 tonners. Finally, my neighbor's chihuahua said, "yo quiero dana 60." I figured that has to be one smart dog :D :flipoff2: :D :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Curtis
I came home today to find my dogs talking with the neighbor dog about this very subject. One of my dogs said that the 44 with the alloy shafts and CTMs are the way to go. Then my other dog said she'd rather get some 2.5 tonners. Finally, my neighbor's chihuahua said, "yo quiero dana 60." I figured that has to be one smart dog :D :flipoff2: :D :flipoff2: HeHeHe That's a good one.:D :D :D

Originally posted by Underdog
No thats not right.
A D-30 will not pull a 33 for long
And a D-44 won"t live with more than a 35
Damn dont make me spend all night going thru info, links, mags, etc.

WRONG! A D30 with the 297 joints stands up to 33" tires fine. even 35's. I know 1-2 guys running 38's without problems and the only thing the blow are joints! not the axles or diff or bending housings. (and those 297 are the same as a D44)

D44, 38's.

D60, I would say 38 is a MINIMUM! or your dragging your diffs.

Don't listen to the mags to closely.. have of them don't seem to know anything.

Originally posted by twaldher


WRONG! A D30 with the 297 joints stands up to 33" tires fine. even 35's. I know 1-2 guys running 38's without problems and the only thing the blow are joints! not the axles or diff or bending housings. (and those 297 are the same as a D44)

D44, 38's.

D60, I would say 38 is a MINIMUM! or your dragging your diffs.

Don't listen to the mags to closely.. have of them don't seem to know anything.

Is this from your many years and extensive expirence Travis? :rolleyes: funny how you are such a "WEALTH" of knowledge on here......considering you took your rig to someone else to be built, and still run ThornCHICKENS.....

Originally posted by SNORTclown


Is this from your many years and extensive expirence Travis? :rolleyes: funny how you are such a "WEALTH" of knowledge on here......considering you took your rig to someone else to be built, and still run ThornCHICKENS..... SMACK:flipoff2: thats gotta hurt

Originally posted by SNORTclown


Is this from your many years and extensive expirence Travis? :rolleyes: funny how you are such a "WEALTH" of knowledge on here......considering you took your rig to someone else to be built, and still run ThornCHICKENS.....


Brutal!:eek: but I like it:flipoff2:

Originally posted by SNORTclown


Is this from your many years and extensive expirence Travis? :rolleyes: funny how you are such a "WEALTH" of knowledge on here......considering you took your rig to someone else to be built, and still run ThornCHICKENS.....


Ouch. Like a 2x4 of justice, smackdownClown deals out the blows. :D :D :D

Magazine magazine magazine. Talk to magazine Billavista!

The only problem with contactin the mags is:

1) could take a LOT of time

2) if they publish, they control, and frankly I have zero faith in their ability to be objective - especially if that required making one of their main advetisers look pretty bad

On the other hand - they would more likely have the resources to be able to repeat the teting enough times to get reliable results?

I dunno - it's Tech73's project - I'm just helping

Originally posted by SNORTclown


Is this from your many years and extensive expirence Travis? :rolleyes: funny how you are such a "WEALTH" of knowledge on here......considering you took your rig to someone else to be built, and still run ThornCHICKENS.....

Heh.

I'm running the D30 alloy shafts with 297x on 38's lockright, I bet I get the D60 before I break em. Last time was a fluke, I tell ya...

-J

Originally posted by colech
Magazine magazine magazine. Talk to magazine Billavista!


I am with Bill on this one ......

I have had the pleasure or displeasure of working with a few of the rags before, and Bill is right they are biased not to mention very inaccurate when it comes to detailing info. Every time they give you the (facts) sheet or interview they have yet to write the info correctly, hell I buy them each month now just to see how much info thet print is wrong. Dont get me wrong they do have lots of things to do but when you take the time and money to build something, and they want to take pics or whatever of it they should at least take the time to be more factual based rather than sounding like a soap opera! In conclusion they can take their waiver and stick it , once they publish it thety have the rights to that info?:roxy:

Originally posted by SNORTclown


Is this from your many years and extensive expirence Travis? :rolleyes: funny how you are such a "WEALTH" of knowledge on here......considering you took your rig to someone else to be built, and still run ThornCHICKENS.....


Oh really...

1) I listen, watch what other people run, watch what seems to work. (not everyone needs a D60, nor can afford it :flipoff2: )

2) your right, I took my rig to someone else to get the suspension work done. But I did build my own axles, sure I didn't retube it, but I set my own gears and did that work. Why did I take it in to get the suspension done? I don't have the experience nor the equipment to do it. Was I there for 90% of the work learning how it was done... YES!

Thornchickens....I'll just let that go... everyone flips me shit for those. oh.. btw .... they are gone now. Just couldn't afford to replace them at the same time.

So I ask you... in my opinion of the D30 vs. D44 vs D60 and tire size... where am I wrong? Tell me so I can learn, otherwise tell me why you decided to launch a PERSONAL assualt on me instead of my technical opinion.

Originally posted by Lance


Hey now, those 60's look GREAT sitting in his driveway!!!! :laughing::laughing::laughing: Yes they do 44 boy:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I havent broke a U-joint yeT:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

as as MasseY used to say "they may be sittin in MY driveway, but at least I have them" :massey:

Originally posted by xBabyJesus


Heh.

I'm running the D30 alloy shafts with 297x on 38's lockright, I bet I get the D60 before I break em. Last time was a fluke, I tell ya...

-J
Then you can totaly drive like an idiot, but with an excuse..

I know this thread is old but did it ever get the test done I am curious as to the results after i read the whole thing