I've searched and can't find the specific info on this. I know Paul did this replacement and have a few questions:

1) What exactly is the P/N of the HEI Amplifier?

2) How is it holding up?

3) Do you have a wiring diagram?

I have remotely mounted my Lucas Amplifier Module using my home-made relocation kit. I also added a heat sink. I have had these go out at an unacceptable rate lately and am trying to figure out what is going on. I have been told that using an "other than Bosch" coil could possibly cause this? :confused: Not really sure if this is true. Any other ideas as to what would cause 3 in the last year to fail. BTW, I think my current Amplifier Module is starting to go out based on the hesitation I am now seeing in the truck! :mad3:

So basically I am thinking I will replace it with the HEI module and buy a few to keep as spares for the trails.

I don't think a Bosch coil is prerequisite, however, don't go with a low-impedence coil (less than 3 ohms). The signal generated by the ignition amp will follow the path of least resistance and potentially more of the voltage will be used to discharge the coil than to trigger the ECU, leading to a "miss" that is indicative of ignition, but actually the ECU failing to fire the injectors.

I can't recall if I still have the wire diagram for the HEI ignition amp, but PM Paul as he gave me the diagram...

Larry - I have been throwing parts at a nasty hesitation/miss I have had for months. HoGot any quick steps to test the ign module ? Do you have any steps/photos of your home made relocation ?

Also - on the outer limits board there is also some great stuff on the HEI change over ( including photos i think )

The wiring diagram that Paul gave me reads as follows:

W and G: reluctor leads
B (-)
C (+)

However, I would appreciate it if Paul would reconfirm this as I have never been able to get a spark with the GH ignition amp, either installed or bench-tested...and yes my ground is good :rolleyes:

Ill check when I get home.

Not that my truck runs.....but I get spark.

-Jeff

I have never had a single ignition problem with my Good old stock lucas parts. Nor have I ever seen so many people complainming about it!!! Lucas can only screw up so much.

My advice, revert your truck back to the stock ignition setup. Stop using the Cheap BAstard stuff, and use the simple parts that work. Sure the dealer may gouge you a little, but at least you do not have to keep 5 spares of multiple parts around. Cheap is good as long as it does not simply cause a re routing of funds in another manner.

And to qualify my above statement. I drive D-90, and I have zero money. I am not a well to do guy with expendable cash for repairing my rover or anything else. I am just short of eating RAMEN NOODLES for breakfast lunch and dinner. So Cheap Bastard is very appealing to me, but I cant afford to do it this way, cause it always cost more in the long run.

I wouldn't complain about the Lucas parts if they hadn't taken a complete sh!t on me in the first place.

BTW, currently reverting back to stock parts...all except the ignition amplifier. A GM unit costs me $15 for VatoZone with Lifetime Replacement Warranty. Gonna exchange mine today to see whether I just received a bad one to start with...

Unfortunately the Lucas parts that keep failing on me. Not sure why. I thought it was heat, but since I've moved the Module off of the distributor I am still getting Amplifier Module failures. So I figure why not just roll with the punches and replace it with a cheaper version and not worry about it failing every time I start some remote trail in Utah!

edit: fixed some bad grammar.

Oh, BTW...the more I searched on the net about GM ignition amp retrofits, the less I care about Lucas or dealership replacements.

FWIW, Jaguar XJ- ignition modules...yes a Lucas part...can cost you over $240. Not only is the GM igntion amp a viable and cheap alternative, for those who have opened their Jaguar/Lucas ignition module, they were often shocked to find a GM amp fitted inside :eek:
http://www.mich.com/~kroppe/jaguar/XJ_Parts.htm#Ignition%20Components

Other wise British auto enthusiasts: http://www.triumphspitfire.com/substitute.html

How about an ignition amp for a Lotus...could cost you over $1080 from the dealer; a 4-wire unit from any GM 4 or 6 cylinder engine would save you over a grand.
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/9235/tech5.html

Google 'GM ignition amplifier retrofit' for more fun info...

If you are having multiple failures of a component, one that you have replaced with new parts, then you should look at other parts of the system that may be causing the damage. Because its not the part it self most likely. As i said before Thousands of the exact same part you are dealing with are running strong for hundreds of thousand miles in the average joes vehicle. If the Cheap bastard part can be verified to be of the exact spec or better for your application, go for it, but if you are just guessing, cause it looks like the same part, you are asking for it to fail right when you need it. And just cause someone on pirate said it works, doesent mean chit in my book. Nor any other forums. I always like to do the research myself with the knowledge that a suggested part may work, but I always verify the numbers.

Just be carefull when you start hacking up your truck just to save a few bucks.

KC, Noted.

I suspect that my Coil is not as well as it used to be. I replaced the original Bosch unit with an aftermarket, non-Bosch and this seems to be when the probs started. I am planning on replacing the crappy existing coil with a new Bosch unit at the same time I retro in the GM Amp. Module.

drink the coolaid!

Time for the Original CB to weigh in. :flipoff2:

1: Part number, we don't need no stinkin' part number! Get the amp for an '83 Chevy P/U with a 350.

2: Try the wiring Jason provided. If it doesn't work the first time, check the fuse and reverse the wiring. In some vehicles, it has blown the fuse when wired backwards, on others, it hasn't. The wiring from the distributor to the amp is a balanced circuit, (positive/negative is irrelevant). The wiring from the amp to the coil is however polarity dependent. Worst case, research the GM amp-I used my '83 Chev P/U as the example (I figured if it didn't work, I had a spare).


As for Bosch coils, I don't believe a word of it as there is a D90, a Rangie, a Disco and a Series IIA running around Fort Wayne with either Accel or Napa coils. The trick here seems to be not mounting it upside down-especially if you can hear the oil slosh around. I suspect when we invert the "Lesser" coils, the windings are no longer immersed and they overheat and fail. I have yet to have a lesser coil fail.

KC, the GM part looks nothing at all like the OEM part:flipoff2: You don't need to hack your truck, it can be reversed readily.

Lastly, I bought three distributors at Sodbury... Stay tuned from more ignition improvements... I'm gonna go completely GM HEI yet, just watch.

Pendy's bushing tools are almost done

Peace,
PT

Pendy's bushing tools are almost done




Yeah...but what about my front shock towers!?!

:flipoff2:

Mike:
You're first in line, believe me. I have tried to get my "Test" chassis home from Chicago since last August. Not having it at the shop is hampering so many design projects, but the broken trucks keep appearing in the parking lot overnight and that takes what design time I have-and shop space.

The scheme is complete, now the easy part begins, makin' the idea work on the chassis.

Week before last, I visited Exmoor Trim, only to find they are located on Slade Way!

Peace,
PT



Yeah...but what about my front shock towers!?!

:flipoff2:

http://tawayama.com/gear/Briggs/hei.JPG

Blue wires goes to the dist (doesnt matter which is which AFAIK) and G&W

Red wire w/red terminals goes to coil - and C

Red wire w/blue terminals goes to coil + and B

White wire w/blue terminals is coil + from main harness

Black wire w/black terminal is coil - from loom near MAF sensor

Black wire w/red terminal is coil + to the resistor thingy

-Jeff

drink the coolaid!

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=123346&stc=1


Issac I think I found your problem....You need one of these!

http://tawayama.com/gear/Briggs/Lucas%20Super.JPG


:flipoff2:

-Jeff

"Issac I think I found your problem....You need one of these!"

:flipoff2:

i have a brand new MSD Blaster II coil in there right now and it runs like shit, FWIW. I think the MSD just puts out too much juice. if anyone else disagrees and would like to buy it, send me a PM - it only ran on there for about 2 weeks :grinpimp: :flipoff2:

edit: oh yeah - stock amplifier module hasn't been diagnosed faulty in 3-years, but who knows. I feel like this MSD will slowly blow the rest of the ignition out. i just ordered a buncha new lucas crap to stuff on there. I'll know by sat. when i go back down for an emissions test

"Issac I think I found your problem....You need one of these!"

:flipoff2:

i have a brand new MSD Blaster II coil in there right now and it runs like shit, FWIW. I think the MSD just puts out too much juice. if anyone else disagrees and would like to buy it, send me a PM - it only ran on there for about 2 weeks :grinpimp: :flipoff2:

edit: oh yeah - stock amplifier module hasn't been diagnosed faulty in 3-years, but who knows. I feel like this MSD will slowly blow the rest of the ignition out. i just ordered a buncha new lucas crap to stuff on there. I'll know by sat. when i go back down for an emissions test

The Blaster 2 coil is a low-resistance coil...which means, of the signal that your ignition amplifier puts out (some goes to the coil to discharge the spark, the rest goes to the ECU to trigger the injectors), the electricity follows the path of least resistance. Using the low-resistance Blaster 2 coil, more of the signal goes to the coil and less goes to the ECU.

In this case, what may feel like an ignition misfire is actually an injector event.

In this case, what may feel like an ignition misfire is actually an injector event.

Now...where have I heard that before? Oh yeah...MERV!!!!!


:flipoff2:

I do not believe anything someone says on the PBB.

I think maybe KC has started something here. I will jump on this bandwagon and maybe add it to my signature.

Dead Lucas what is the holdup, Briggs posted a picture for you to copy his work even. Get it running.

Oh CB, look at DYLCS avator. There is a GM Hei there for you. Although I still want a small cap Gm style which I know is out there and not located for us yet.

Mike where is my instrument panel? Do you have enough coupons to ship yet?

JP

Mike where is my instrument panel? Do you have enough coupons to ship yet?

JP

Gettin' close.

Actually, what's going to get that thing to you more than anything will be me getting tired of tripping on it, and deciding that this box of styrofoam peanuts in the garage is more hassle than it's worth.

:flipoff2:

Patience young Jedi...

Dead Lucas what is the holdup, Briggs posted a picture for you to copy his work even. Get it running.


Have had no luck getting the GM ignition module to amplify the reluctor/mag pick-up signal. Took the amplifier to AutoZone and they tested it, said it was working fine. Maybe I'll work on it again tonight.

Sinking into depression. Both Rovers will soon be for sale, gone, and the dark clouds will move from me back over to Slade.

Sinking into depression. Both Rovers will soon be for sale, gone, and the dark clouds will move from me back over to Slade.

Dark clouds? I have a stock Lucas HEI module in the RRC, and the others don't rely on Lucas at all!

HEHE.

But, I shouldn't discount the prince of darkness so soon.

Set it up on the bench like a science experiment Lucas down under. Put it on a bench with a battery, coil, dizzy, amp. Maybe a coil wire and spark plug. Haywire it. When it works compare it to your nightmare in the driveway and decide why it does not work in the vehicle.
C'mon its been months now. That chicken can only dance so long.

I guess I should have sent you the easy solution. Stock dizzy with amp attached. But you seemed intent to make the CB method work.

Jim Pendleton

Have had no luck getting the GM ignition module to amplify the reluctor/mag pick-up signal. Took the amplifier to AutoZone and they tested it, said it was working fine. Maybe I'll work on it again tonight.

Sinking into depression. Both Rovers will soon be for sale, gone, and the dark clouds will move from me back over to Slade.

Jason:
Have you grounded the amplfier? Jeff's pic doesn't really show the wire grounding the case.

If it don't work, there are only so many ways to wire the damned thing up.

Don't forget the ground, nor the heatsink, the heat will kill it right quick without the heatsink.

On the first truck this was done on, the only reason the truck's been back was for exhaust work :flipoff2:

I do not believe anything someone says on the PBB.

JP

This explains the phone calls!

I begin moving metalworking machinery in an hour!

Mike:
Week before last, I visited Exmoor Trim, only to find they are located on Slade Way!


Looks like you weren't the only American there recently. Pascal sent me this pic to post up.

Actually the name Slade is used all over England. Do a Google for 'Slade rock group' and you'll find one of the darker secrets of the family name. Also, we have an academy of fine art too. Check it out HERE. (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/slade/)

:flipoff2:

Well, the truck runs, the GM ignition amplifier works. I actually had to wire the B and C connections opposite of what I listed earlier...and considering Jeff verified the wiring, I must have an oddball ignition amp. Who knows. I no longer care.

Anyway, B is (+) and C is (-), W and G go to the reluctor. Truck started right up. Pendy, since this is the PBB, just assume the GM ignition amplifier conversion does not work.

Well, the truck runs, the GM ignition amplifier works. I actually had to wire the B and C connections opposite of what I listed earlier...and considering Jeff verified the wiring, I must have an oddball ignition amp. Who knows. I no longer care.

Anyway, B is (+) and C is (-), W and G go to the reluctor. Truck started right up. Pendy, since this is the PBB, just assume the GM ignition amplifier conversion does not work.

I have B+,C- as well, maybe Paul is getting his debits & credits mixed up?
:flipoff2:

But then again, he is the guy who deserves all the credit.

-Jeff

Well, the truck runs, the GM ignition amplifier works. I actually had to wire the B and C connections opposite of what I listed earlier...and considering Jeff verified the wiring, I must have an oddball ignition amp. Who knows. I no longer care.

Anyway, B is (+) and C is (-), W and G go to the reluctor. Truck started right up. Pendy, since this is the PBB, just assume the GM ignition amplifier conversion does not work.



Hip Hip 'Hooray.

Although I do not believe it, I am still happy for you. Did you blow out the cobwebs on the strip collecting pamphlets for my payment? Got pictures of your version of this CB fix yet? I want to see those SAAB parts on your Rover making it spark.

Now for the advanced version. My SAAB's have a knock sensor inspired ignition system that would be easy to retrofit to a Range Rover. You up for the challenge Lucas six feet under? It would piggyback your new system and you may be able to advance timing up to 16degrees BTDC. The knock sensor is a pzieo electric flux capacitor delebob. And it would retard timing before any detonation. Perfect for the roots blower that goes on your 3.5 monster next.

JP

Hip Hip 'Hooray.

Got pictures of your version of this CB fix yet? I want to see those SAAB parts on your Rover making it spark.

Now for the advanced version. My SAAB's have a knock sensor inspired ignition system that would be easy to retrofit to a Range Rover. You up for the challenge Lucas six feet under? It would piggyback your new system and you may be able to advance timing up to 16degrees BTDC. The knock sensor is a pzieo electric flux capacitor delebob. And it would retard timing before any detonation. Perfect for the roots blower that goes on your 3.5 monster next.

JP

Pictures were posted last summer SEARCH Newbie! :flipoff2:

How does the Saab system retard timing? I'm curious as to how it would work and what real benefits one would realize.

I decided yesterday to convert my Disco to a GM amp-after my GM injectors are installed and I have fabbed the mounts to put a leaf-sprung Salisbury under my coil-sprung Disco.

Oh if those dead and dying Rovers didn't keep appearing in the parking lot-I have to go to England to get any rest!

Pictures were posted last summer SEARCH Newbie! :flipoff2:

How does the Saab system retard timing? I'm curious as to how it would work and what real benefits one would realize.

I decided yesterday to convert my Disco to a GM amp-after my GM injectors are installed and I have fabbed the mounts to put a leaf-sprung Salisbury under my coil-sprung Disco.

Oh if those dead and dying Rovers didn't keep appearing in the parking lot-I have to go to England to get any rest!

First off I want pictures of his conversion not your hack job. Newbie. Maybe you shoudl just stay in UK limey lover. Ha

Saab EZK ignition. A seperate ECU monitors the knock sensor and adjust timing through the amp. Pretty bombproof and it has built in diagnostics with a flashing dash light. Benefits include running cheap octane fuel. The benefits of adjusting the timing for increased output. And a failsafe to prevent detonation in your aluminum engine.

But I asked Lucas to lead this project. You need to concentrate on my bushing tools. It seems wiring diagrams are somewhat above your skills as noted by Lucas' problems. Ha :flipoff2:

Looking forward to the rebutal.
Jim Pendleton

First off I want pictures of his conversion not your hack job. Newbie. Maybe you shoudl just stay in UK limey lover. Ha

Saab EZK ignition. A seperate ECU monitors the knock sensor and adjust timing through the amp. Pretty bombproof and it has built in diagnostics with a flashing dash light. Benefits include running cheap octane fuel. The benefits of adjusting the timing for increased output. And a failsafe to prevent detonation in your aluminum engine.

But I asked Lucas to lead this project. You need to concentrate on my bushing tools. It seems wiring diagrams are somewhat above your skills as noted by Lucas' problems. Ha :flipoff2:

Looking forward to the rebutal.
Jim Pendleton

Hack job? You've been hangin' with KC again, eh?

I'm still curious as to how the electronics can control the mechanical distributor. GM did it, but I was just as confused then.

The evolution of bushing tools has just found the missing link and they should be done as soon as I get a bench built for the new lathe. When I realized the ID of the trailing arm, radius arm, etc was much more important than the OD of the bushing, development progressed very quickly. And, given the policy of continuous/continual improvement at BTL (Registered to BS 69000 management system) the design is even better than before.

As for wiring, I'm getting good at the P38 electrical systems and have even been asked to assist one of the parts houses with further hacking the BECM and EAS control functions-take that Dweb!

Hope this response lived up to your expectations :flipoff2:

PT

Pendy,
I'll give that knock-retard ignition a try...if you don't mind it heading into a non-Rover vehicle.
Being a stand-alone ignition retard (unlike later GM ignition/EFI), it should wire right up. The only concern would be the sensitivity of the Saab accelerometer...IIRC, they were installed on OHC engines, thus not susceptable to all the noise a pushrod engine creates. Obviously GM has been using accelerometer-monitored knock-retards on their pushrod engines for some time, but whether the Saab sensor and electromagic would work within the normal range of Rover operation, who knows.
I'd be willing to wire it up to a DOHC Fiat...D

BTW, I'm betting the Saab unit can be found dirt cheap...compared to the J&S Safegard (http://www.jandssafeguard.com/), of which I'm a proponent :D

Pendy, I'll get a pic out soon. Your name was echoed through the Las Vegas strip and many followers were recruited. Uh, your cult has officially been put on Federal suicide watch, so be careful the next time you ask for rolls of quarters at the bank.

Hack job? You've been hangin' with KC again, eh?

I'm still curious as to how the electronics can control the mechanical distributor. GM did it, but I was just as confused then.

The evolution of bushing tools has just found the missing link and they should be done as soon as I get a bench built for the new lathe. When I realized the ID of the trailing arm, radius arm, etc was much more important than the OD of the bushing, development progressed very quickly. And, given the policy of continuous/continual improvement at BTL (Registered to BS 69000 management system) the design is even better than before.

As for wiring, I'm getting good at the P38 electrical systems and have even been asked to assist one of the parts houses with further hacking the BECM and EAS control functions-take that Dweb!

:mad3:
You know I play favorites to everyone in no particular order. But you must admit the past couple days the pot has been stirred.


BPI giving you grunt work, I like, now the problems are on you not them.

dizzy operator
Jim Pendleton

Hope this response lived up to your expectations :flipoff2:

PT

I did the GM HEI conversion a while ago, there is a link to the stuff i put on outerlimits here http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14921 for any that may be interested.
It has transformed my old Rangie! Easy starting, hot or cold, on either LPG or petrol, makes more power and uses less gas as well!
Kevin

Our apologies...we are only using the HEI ignition amplifier with the stock distributor on our "conversion." Kinda halfway between "really sucks" and "Holy grail." We'll get there eventually.

From: http://www.megasquirt.info/manual/mwire.htm

Here is how to wire it up. The four HEI module terminals are labeled W, G, B and C.
* W = positive lead (+) from the pickup
* G = negative lead (-) from the pickup
* C = negative side (-) of the coil
* B = positive side (+) of the coil

I've got to walk someone through this over the phone who is 6 hours away.

Does this diagram look right?

It's either module or coil. I've searched all day long but didnt find any alternate coils that would replace a LR coil. Think an off the shelf 1960's to early 70's pre-HEI GM coil will work? They look to be the same size.


http://www.utdallas.edu/~rfleming/pics/wiringdiagram.jpg

OMG, Don't jump right to this step or you'll be assured failure.

Go to the electrical troubleshooting manual and follow the directions to determine what it is that has failed.

If you don't want to follow this route, remove the engine and transmission and replace with a 1970's SBC with carburetor and breaker points.

Peace,
PT

I am not Pendy, I only play him on the internet.

OMG, Don't jump right to this step or you'll be assured failure.

Go to the electrical troubleshooting manual and follow the directions to determine what it is that has failed.

If you don't want to follow this route, remove the engine and transmission and replace with a 1970's SBC with carburetor and breaker points.




LR dealership did the diagnosis on it, but to fix it was going to be 700 bucks. Is it safe to assume they did the correct diagnosis?

Is it safe to assume they did the correct diagnosis?

Uhhh, DieLucas you want to handle that one!

I have found that dealerships are typically parts installers. If something doesn't work, they have a part to sell you. If that part doesn't work, they have another one.

-Jeff

LR dealership did the diagnosis on it, but to fix it was going to be 700 bucks. Is it safe to assume they did the correct diagnosis?

In your post you say it is either the coil or the module. If the stealership did a diag, which is it, coil or module?

If you replace the module with the GM amp and it turns out to be the coil...

Do your own diagnostic and fix what is wrong (am I sounding like KC yet?)